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Evasion: Hit or Miss?
- Thread starter Veedrock
- Start date
I didn't mean all of them at once >__>;
You actually have a point here. While I'm not going to jump right on that it'll be a "positive effect" (it is evasion afterall), it will potentially diversify things.
Like I said, it was a rant. I did go a bit extreme. I'm not against unbanning it, but I do believe there should be extensive testing before the metagame is open to a-whole-nother avenue. Evasion isn't a pokemon or item; it's an entire mechanic that may shift things in the wrong direction.
That was something you convinced me of in the PR thread, and is why I'm more neutral than die-hard for a ban. It'd be aggrivating to miss like 3 times or so before hitting, but (with the exception of baton passing) ignoring it won't hurt too bad as their moveset is limited and you get free turns to do whatever while they attempt to set up (considering that hax aren't ungodly too).
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tl;dr version: Yeah, you're pretty much right.
Taunt is affected by accuracy, so assuming you think Gliscor is non-attacking, your taunter has to switch in to a +1 evasion brightpowder Gliscor...which means you've got a 60% chance of even hitting it with Taunt, and they can always switch out.
I believe that the primary reason why all Pokemon should be legal until we have good reason to believe that they should be banned is that each Pokemon has a niche that it may provide in the metagame. We want as many contributors as possible, yet we don't want Pokemon that are too powerful. With me so far? The difference between a Pokemon and evasion moves is that any Pokemon contributes something to the metagame, some more than others (Magikarp and Unown don't contribute much, of course). What do evasion moves contribute? Hax is a necessary evil, but why should we treat it as if it's a desirable good? Rather than asking if evasion moves are too harmful to the metagame to overlook their benefits, perhaps we should ask what the benefits of evasion moves are to begin with. Why does anyone even want to see these in the metagame? What is the upside?
The upside is that we generally believe bans are bad things. Ideally, Pokemon would need zero modifications to be "competitive" - but we have Ubers, clauses, etc. This leads us to conclude that the fewer bans we have, the better it is for the metagame. The upside to testing evasion moves would be to prove the ban on them was unnecessary, and reduce the total number of bans in standard play.
Being haxed out of a win is always frustrating. But this isn't an automatic hax button. Double team takes a turn to use. Set up turns are generally used when you know the opponent is gonna switch. In this fast paced game a turn means a lot. What else can you do with a turn? Boost your stats to hit even a counter hard, let loose a choice banded or specsed hit to wear down your counter.
I find that a lot of worry about evasion is either a result of hax frustration or the reliance of luck for the creation of an "uncounterable Pokemon". The most potent of these theorized sets is a gliscor with sand veil and brightpowder, an OU pokemon. But a gliscor could also heal, raise it's attack for a sweep, or let off a powerful earthquake, more reliable ways to gain an advantage. I'm not saying that double team is useless, but even on the best sets that use it there are already other options that are either as good or better.
You might be wondering why if people don't think it will make a huge impact, what's the point of taking a risk and bringing it into the game anyways. My reason is that the metagame will always be overcentralized and good teams will never vary much in composition. I feel doubleteam gives player another chance at instilling excitement into the game. A double team Togekiss can hope that the already low accuracy and pp stone edges will miss and terrorize the other team. The chance is big enough to give it viability and entertain gimick players, but low enough not to overly change the metagame.
I find that a lot of worry about evasion is either a result of hax frustration or the reliance of luck for the creation of an "uncounterable Pokemon". The most potent of these theorized sets is a gliscor with sand veil and brightpowder, an OU pokemon. But a gliscor could also heal, raise it's attack for a sweep, or let off a powerful earthquake, more reliable ways to gain an advantage. I'm not saying that double team is useless, but even on the best sets that use it there are already other options that are either as good or better.
You might be wondering why if people don't think it will make a huge impact, what's the point of taking a risk and bringing it into the game anyways. My reason is that the metagame will always be overcentralized and good teams will never vary much in composition. I feel doubleteam gives player another chance at instilling excitement into the game. A double team Togekiss can hope that the already low accuracy and pp stone edges will miss and terrorize the other team. The chance is big enough to give it viability and entertain gimick players, but low enough not to overly change the metagame.
I'm all for saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Our metagame is (arguably) not broken.
But more in depth, what is it that we ban on Smogon: moves, pokemon, or movesets/strategies?
Banning a move sets a horrible precedent. Back to the old premise of banning Stealth Rock now. What would banning a move set a precedent of? Then people would ban any move that annoyed them- "We should ban Calm Mind, I have a Suicune weakness," "We should ban Sketch, I have a Smeargle weakness." By this logic, banning Double Team and the rest would set a horrible precedent, readying our sorry virtual, wicked souls for the Pokemon Apocalypse.
But then why should we ban these moves?
Because here at Smogon, its truly not Pokemon we ban, but sets.
I don't think it's so much Skymin we banned as its Choice/SubSeed/etc. sets. There used to be an SD Skymin. If someone used that on the ladder, would we have a problem? No way- that set was horrible. If someone used a Specsmin, would we have a problem? Yes, if the voice of the people is anything to go by.
Think of Articuno as the only non-Smeargle user of Mind Reader/Sheer Cold. Do we ban Articuno? No. Did we effectively ban that set? Yes.
In this same vein, do we have a problem with a physical wall Gliscor? No, unless it is through some failure of our teams. Therefore we do not ban it. But would we have a problem with a Double Team Gliscor? Heck yes, and through no failure of our own team building. Therefore, we ban that set.
The only logical argument for banning a move in its entirety is that no matter what Pokemon it is on, it is broken. OHKO moves are. Any Pokemon can abuse them on its sets. It's not Earthquake that we banned, but only Earthquake on Garchomp- the move Earthquake itself is not broken.
But any set that Double Team would show its face on would be just as broken as the greatest SD Garchomp could ever be.
Thank you for seeing where I'm coming from.
(Interestingly, as a side note, on my cartridge I have a Sand Veil Double Team Garchomp. What a hypocrite I am. At least I don't use it on Wi-Fi, because I'm not a Wi-Fi nerd like some people. I never even wified once.)
EDIT: And with regard to Hipmonlee's earlier arguments which effect to saying that doing this or doing that would completely screw these DT sets, I say that having one Max Spa Choice Specs HP Ice Bronzong, one Choice Banded Ice Shard Weavile and one Choice Banded Ice Shard Mamoswine completely deal with Garchomp, and if you didn't carry those guys to deal with him then its your own fault if you get swept.
Our metagame is (arguably) not broken.
But more in depth, what is it that we ban on Smogon: moves, pokemon, or movesets/strategies?
Banning a move sets a horrible precedent. Back to the old premise of banning Stealth Rock now. What would banning a move set a precedent of? Then people would ban any move that annoyed them- "We should ban Calm Mind, I have a Suicune weakness," "We should ban Sketch, I have a Smeargle weakness." By this logic, banning Double Team and the rest would set a horrible precedent, readying our sorry virtual, wicked souls for the Pokemon Apocalypse.
But then why should we ban these moves?
Because here at Smogon, its truly not Pokemon we ban, but sets.
I don't think it's so much Skymin we banned as its Choice/SubSeed/etc. sets. There used to be an SD Skymin. If someone used that on the ladder, would we have a problem? No way- that set was horrible. If someone used a Specsmin, would we have a problem? Yes, if the voice of the people is anything to go by.
Think of Articuno as the only non-Smeargle user of Mind Reader/Sheer Cold. Do we ban Articuno? No. Did we effectively ban that set? Yes.
In this same vein, do we have a problem with a physical wall Gliscor? No, unless it is through some failure of our teams. Therefore we do not ban it. But would we have a problem with a Double Team Gliscor? Heck yes, and through no failure of our own team building. Therefore, we ban that set.
The only logical argument for banning a move in its entirety is that no matter what Pokemon it is on, it is broken. OHKO moves are. Any Pokemon can abuse them on its sets. It's not Earthquake that we banned, but only Earthquake on Garchomp- the move Earthquake itself is not broken.
But any set that Double Team would show its face on would be just as broken as the greatest SD Garchomp could ever be.
Thank you for seeing where I'm coming from.
(Interestingly, as a side note, on my cartridge I have a Sand Veil Double Team Garchomp. What a hypocrite I am. At least I don't use it on Wi-Fi, because I'm not a Wi-Fi nerd like some people. I never even wified once.)
EDIT: And with regard to Hipmonlee's earlier arguments which effect to saying that doing this or doing that would completely screw these DT sets, I say that having one Max Spa Choice Specs HP Ice Bronzong, one Choice Banded Ice Shard Weavile and one Choice Banded Ice Shard Mamoswine completely deal with Garchomp, and if you didn't carry those guys to deal with him then its your own fault if you get swept.
Just because the metagame is fine as it is doesn't mean we shouldn't bother trying to do things to it. (if I misinterpretted that, sorry).
Reminds me of Manaphy. You make a good point though.
Another good example (don't take this as saying that it shouldn't be tested still).
To readers, don't let this statement derail the discussion. OHKO moves are related but not (if you know what I mean). Don't start talking about their legality, though as an example it is ok.
Anyways, I like your use of examples to explain your viewpoint. It makes it so much easier to understand. You have no idea.
Now here is where I'd have to say that testing is needed to conclude this. It's a statement without much proof to back it up. While the examples on what you were getting at is good, actual data is needed to make a claim about this.
I just used a Double Team Simple Bibarel with Luck Incense (works similar to brightpowder) in the battle tower. The evasion wasn't near as reliable as I had hoped. While I did set up twice as quick, it didn't give me any critical misses that I needed. Maybe it didn't help that I lacked recovery and couldn't take a hit worth @#$%, but I didn't pose much of a problem (thought this was to the AI, battle tower at that).
Not saying I wouldn't hate to fight a +6 anything, but it didn't show to be much of an issue. They set up and that gives you time to do practically anything.
Hipmonlee listed ways to stop DT that are already prevelant in the metagame. What he listed were counters. If you aren't running pokes with roar or whirlwind, then yeah, you'll have trouble with teams that use stat boosts or baton pass at their core.
You listed half of a team. What you listed was overcentralization.
Just a *slight* word in this thread, even though it might not be too terribly significant. If Evasion was ever allowed (tested or otherwise), my Baton Pass team would be too broken for normal play. Right now, I use Sand Veil on my Gliscor, and that helps me in so many situations that it really is unbelievable. If I could use Double Team on my Baton Pass team, I'm pretty sure I could beat almost any other team.
Evaison isn't really a problem, in fact, it wouldn't really shake the metagame, it would just make it much more luck reliant than ever.
I can give a rough 90% of the common OU sweepers won't even miss that versitallity in their movesets. Take Kingdra as an example, it wouldn't miss that last slot of its moveset (Substitute and something else) whereas a Pokemon like Gengar might. Take note of how many OU, UU and Uber sweepers won't mind losing a slot for Double Team. Some sweepers like Metagross, Mewtwo and Bibarel can just exchange their primary stat rise for Double Team.
Now, onto what's really bothered me: Baton Pass Chains and Walls getting Double Team. Baton Pass chains definately bother me as they can give another Pokemon a +1 evaison boost while it keeps its versitality. Gliscor for example can Baton Pass a Double Team to Tyranitar who can just sweep from that single boost. Sturdy walls like Blissey can be given Double Team and be made virtually unstopable and after you manage to KO that said wall, 9 times out of 10, it would've already completed its task.
Anyway, Evaison doesn't really take away from the amount of versitallity a Pokemon gets, it just takes away that filler or "just in case" move. Hell, some sweepers don't even need Double Team to sweep.
I can give a rough 90% of the common OU sweepers won't even miss that versitallity in their movesets. Take Kingdra as an example, it wouldn't miss that last slot of its moveset (Substitute and something else) whereas a Pokemon like Gengar might. Take note of how many OU, UU and Uber sweepers won't mind losing a slot for Double Team. Some sweepers like Metagross, Mewtwo and Bibarel can just exchange their primary stat rise for Double Team.
Now, onto what's really bothered me: Baton Pass Chains and Walls getting Double Team. Baton Pass chains definately bother me as they can give another Pokemon a +1 evaison boost while it keeps its versitality. Gliscor for example can Baton Pass a Double Team to Tyranitar who can just sweep from that single boost. Sturdy walls like Blissey can be given Double Team and be made virtually unstopable and after you manage to KO that said wall, 9 times out of 10, it would've already completed its task.
Anyway, Evaison doesn't really take away from the amount of versitallity a Pokemon gets, it just takes away that filler or "just in case" move. Hell, some sweepers don't even need Double Team to sweep.
Bolded parts the things I had problems with.
First paragraph: Sure, a lot of things could exchange moves, but would they want to? With an agility a metagross can combat most everything and has explosion for things it doesn't. With a doubleteam... It can avoid it's counter about 10-20% of the time (does anybody know the percentage a stage one of evasion booth gives?). If that doesn't work then it is completely screwed. At least with an agility Metagross can usually explode on it's counter.
Second: One evasion boost would allow a TTar to sweep? I doubt it. And on baton pass teams wouldn't defensive boosts be a much more realiable way to boost their potential? I mean sure, defensive and evasion boosts would be hell, but if you're opponent let you get all the boosts, they would be screwed even if you didn't have evasion boosts. And with very dedicated walls like Blissey? Most of the moves that KO blissey are 100% accurate moves (Close Combat, Superpower, Explosion). And it's not like Blissey a lot of other dedicated walls can OHKO back. So they would be relying on luck a helluva lot and would most likely be happier with a more conservative strategy.
Third: I actually agree here but the tone suggests that double team is a very helpful move for sweeping. Now I think there are certain movesets (Evasion Gliscor) that could make good use of it, but I think speed and attack ups is worth your time more than boosting evasion. What would you see more, a dragon dance Gyrados or a Double team sub Gyrados?
Gyarados is a bad example. Would people rather use Double Team Jirachi or Calm Mind Jirachi? Ultimately, most people would pick the Calm Mind set (no evidence to back me up here!). A boost to your actual defenses in the long run is more useful than a boost to your evasion (there are some exceptions).
I agree mostly with what luxormaniac had to say, though some of the comments were rash.
I agree mostly with what luxormaniac had to say, though some of the comments were rash.
it has been shown that using double team has a statistically lower pay off (defensively ) than using cosmic power. this is even including critical hits. i imagine that other defensive moves would be similar to this.
i doubt double team would even be that viable anyway. consider you have a bulky sweeper with double team over one of the attacks. you lose coverage by having double team before you even do anything. then you use double team as they switch in their counter. the counter pokemon most likely one hit ko you. you have a double team up so the enemies attack will only be 80 per cent chance to hit. are you really going to stay in and rely on the 80 per cent chance to save you? you would have just been better off attacking the enemy to weaken their counter or whatever. similar stuff with walls as well (double team blissey? heracross comes in for free and has a 80 per cent chance to ohko)
i doubt double team would even be that viable anyway. consider you have a bulky sweeper with double team over one of the attacks. you lose coverage by having double team before you even do anything. then you use double team as they switch in their counter. the counter pokemon most likely one hit ko you. you have a double team up so the enemies attack will only be 80 per cent chance to hit. are you really going to stay in and rely on the 80 per cent chance to save you? you would have just been better off attacking the enemy to weaken their counter or whatever. similar stuff with walls as well (double team blissey? heracross comes in for free and has a 80 per cent chance to ohko)
Forget DT Blissey, I was thinking of something more sinister: Dusknoir (Dusclops in UU) @Leftovers
Substitute
Double Team
Spite
*filler* [Taunt/Toxic/Will-O-Wisp most likely, Focus Punch if you fear Tyranitar coming in to Pursuit]
Basically you use Pressure with Sub, DT, and Spite, and completely destroy your opponents PP.
Cacturne wouldn't be fun either. Sub/Double Team/Sucker Punch/Focus Punch.
Especially if Gliscor passed it Rock Polish.
Substitute
Double Team
Spite
*filler* [Taunt/Toxic/Will-O-Wisp most likely, Focus Punch if you fear Tyranitar coming in to Pursuit]
Basically you use Pressure with Sub, DT, and Spite, and completely destroy your opponents PP.
Cacturne wouldn't be fun either. Sub/Double Team/Sucker Punch/Focus Punch.
Especially if Gliscor passed it Rock Polish.
Stealth Rock caused Rapid Spin use to go up and forced most users of SR to carry a Ghost to block RS.
Keeping evasion banned because it decreases the quality of the metagame seems fair (even if I think it's a bit skewed), but the quoted reaction seems to me that it should be kept banned so that the metagame doesn't change. Things change and people evolve in response to it. Still, I don't think that unbanning DT will have much of an effect in the usage of Haze because people won't flock to using DT, but even if it does, then so be it.
Evasion will always be a controversial issue, I don't believe there will ever be a consensus. My opinion is simple:
Every move, every switch, every play at all in a game has both skill and luck around it. Evasion moves are no exception, anyone that uses them needs to have skill at using it. Try using DT on a Umby facing a Subbed Boah. Yes, it is stupid. Of course, that was an exagerated example, but you see my point, using evasion increasing moves takes skill, like everything else.
But, when comparing to most moves, it takes way less. The skill factor is present, but luck has a much higher importance. IMO, a move like that shouldnt be allowed. The best comparition would be OHKO's. Most times, you can't pull them off, but when you get lucky enough to do it the match could be over.
Side note: Stomp does 2x vs Minimize :p
Every move, every switch, every play at all in a game has both skill and luck around it. Evasion moves are no exception, anyone that uses them needs to have skill at using it. Try using DT on a Umby facing a Subbed Boah. Yes, it is stupid. Of course, that was an exagerated example, but you see my point, using evasion increasing moves takes skill, like everything else.
But, when comparing to most moves, it takes way less. The skill factor is present, but luck has a much higher importance. IMO, a move like that shouldnt be allowed. The best comparition would be OHKO's. Most times, you can't pull them off, but when you get lucky enough to do it the match could be over.
Side note: Stomp does 2x vs Minimize :p
There is one thing I don't really understand in this topic.
Why, exactly, are bans being considered a bad thing?
Various people are arguing that all other things being equal, a metagame with less bans is superior to a metagame with more bans. This does not seem trivially obvious, though.
Why, exactly, are bans being considered a bad thing?
Various people are arguing that all other things being equal, a metagame with less bans is superior to a metagame with more bans. This does not seem trivially obvious, though.
Because everyone's scared that we're going to end up with a metagame that only allows Wurmple.
It's really a silly thing to be scared of. People who advocate a greater number of bans are generally trying to increase variety, not decrease it. It's not like they get off on banning things.
We try to have a competitive metagame as true to the game that nintendo created. This means as few bans as possible without sacrificing a competitive environment.
Additionally, players will be more prepared for nintendo sponsored events, this is not a reason not to ban things, merely a bonus effect of not banning things.
Additionally, players will be more prepared for nintendo sponsored events, this is not a reason not to ban things, merely a bonus effect of not banning things.
Time for a long post :D
It's still worth a shot. It's a very, very similar situation to the Shaymin-S vote; most uber votes had an extreme bias because they were haxed 2-3 times (and those were the only times they encountered it), throwing the vote. With the new voting system there may be a diminished effect of this, but there's no doubt that it'll be there. But we've got nothing to lose by trying.
Sure, most of those moves are 100%, until Evasion is factored in. Considering that Evasion is passed to Blissey, I could see Toxic/Seismic Toss/Softboiled/Defense Curl being a @#$%&. Defense Curl means those KO moves won't do as much (when they actually hit!), softboiled for healing, and toxic to stall. Seismic Toss if for steels (better than Flamethrower as it also hits Heatran). If evasion is passed, Blissey can round herself out to be quite the problem.
That is interesting. I didn't know that. But with a clearly open test, I feel that people will try to experiment with it and find some set that really works. And as mentioned, even if there isn't a flock of DT users on Smogon, there will still be a bias =/
Remember that that's just a claim, you have no evidence to support that. And even so, you'd have to pick one or the other, leaving you vulnerable to what resists the one you picked (Gliscor lols at Thunder, while something like Heatran lols at Blizzard).
Speaking of Hail, Double Team Walrein. @___@
lol, that's actually kind of funny to think about. But from my experience most leads carry a fire move, or is T-Tar. And if I was passing DT, I wouldn't pass it to a choice users that could get walled and forced to switch (effectively removing the boosts).
Yes, but not all pokemon can use it effectively. But this raises the issue of if one (or five) pokemon become "broken" then is it DT's fault or the pokemon's fault? And which do we ban first?
Most ways to "deal" with it are either not very common (such as yawn), not entirely effective (phazing and taunt can miss), or not used at all (no miss moves [save Aura Sphere, learned by 2 OU pokemon], Odor Sleuth, Gravity, etc). Counters to evasion are non-existant, and I'm not sure if you feel it, but it's difficult enough to handle every threat on the table as it is, so making room for near useless moves is difficult (which is why I agree the best way to deal with it is to ignore it).
Very good question. It was already addressed, but thank you for making that point.
I can't say that's exactly what we're aiming for. We're still going to test Soul Dew Lati@s (considering that one or both make OU), something Nintendo doesn't allow. We allow(ed) Shaymin-S to be played alongside sleep/freeze clause. We don't enforce an item clause. We allow various legends that Nintendo doesn't, and we play level 100 rather than 50. While we want to keep the game mechanics the same, yes, we aren't striving for Nintendo rules/regulations.
And a players preparation, like you said, it just a bonus. In actuality allowing evasion boosters won't do much, as A) the community isn't focused around doubles, B) it's level 100, and C) different ban lists.
It's still worth a shot. It's a very, very similar situation to the Shaymin-S vote; most uber votes had an extreme bias because they were haxed 2-3 times (and those were the only times they encountered it), throwing the vote. With the new voting system there may be a diminished effect of this, but there's no doubt that it'll be there. But we've got nothing to lose by trying.
Sure, most of those moves are 100%, until Evasion is factored in. Considering that Evasion is passed to Blissey, I could see Toxic/Seismic Toss/Softboiled/Defense Curl being a @#$%&. Defense Curl means those KO moves won't do as much (when they actually hit!), softboiled for healing, and toxic to stall. Seismic Toss if for steels (better than Flamethrower as it also hits Heatran). If evasion is passed, Blissey can round herself out to be quite the problem.
That is interesting. I didn't know that. But with a clearly open test, I feel that people will try to experiment with it and find some set that really works. And as mentioned, even if there isn't a flock of DT users on Smogon, there will still be a bias =/
Remember that that's just a claim, you have no evidence to support that. And even so, you'd have to pick one or the other, leaving you vulnerable to what resists the one you picked (Gliscor lols at Thunder, while something like Heatran lols at Blizzard).
Speaking of Hail, Double Team Walrein. @___@
lol, that's actually kind of funny to think about. But from my experience most leads carry a fire move, or is T-Tar. And if I was passing DT, I wouldn't pass it to a choice users that could get walled and forced to switch (effectively removing the boosts).
Yes, but not all pokemon can use it effectively. But this raises the issue of if one (or five) pokemon become "broken" then is it DT's fault or the pokemon's fault? And which do we ban first?
Most ways to "deal" with it are either not very common (such as yawn), not entirely effective (phazing and taunt can miss), or not used at all (no miss moves [save Aura Sphere, learned by 2 OU pokemon], Odor Sleuth, Gravity, etc). Counters to evasion are non-existant, and I'm not sure if you feel it, but it's difficult enough to handle every threat on the table as it is, so making room for near useless moves is difficult (which is why I agree the best way to deal with it is to ignore it).
Very good question. It was already addressed, but thank you for making that point.
I can't say that's exactly what we're aiming for. We're still going to test Soul Dew Lati@s (considering that one or both make OU), something Nintendo doesn't allow. We allow(ed) Shaymin-S to be played alongside sleep/freeze clause. We don't enforce an item clause. We allow various legends that Nintendo doesn't, and we play level 100 rather than 50. While we want to keep the game mechanics the same, yes, we aren't striving for Nintendo rules/regulations.
And a players preparation, like you said, it just a bonus. In actuality allowing evasion boosters won't do much, as A) the community isn't focused around doubles, B) it's level 100, and C) different ban lists.