I didn't mean all of them at once >__>;If teams have Machamp, what do they need Haze for? Suddenly teams have to have Haze, or Machamp, or Bibarel, or Perish Song, or one of those moves you listed, or Roar/Whirlwind or Yawn?
You actually have a point here. While I'm not going to jump right on that it'll be a "positive effect" (it is evasion afterall), it will potentially diversify things.If people start using moves they arent currently using then that kinda sounds like DT is having a positive effect on the game.
What you are describing is a more diverse metagame. What you are implying here is that it will be harder to cover everything, which to me implies that better players will be more able to differentiate themselves from weaker players, by their ability to cover more with the same number of pokemon. That to me, is a more competitive metagame.
Like I said, it was a rant. I did go a bit extreme. I'm not against unbanning it, but I do believe there should be extensive testing before the metagame is open to a-whole-nother avenue. Evasion isn't a pokemon or item; it's an entire mechanic that may shift things in the wrong direction.This argument can be applied to anything. You are essentially saying "dont unban anything". You could even take it as far as to say "we should ban every pokemon now, because there could be a godsend set or strategy we just havent found yet they use". What we should do is unban DT, and when a godsend strategy presents itself, then we can ban it again.
That was something you convinced me of in the PR thread, and is why I'm more neutral than die-hard for a ban. It'd be aggrivating to miss like 3 times or so before hitting, but (with the exception of baton passing) ignoring it won't hurt too bad as their moveset is limited and you get free turns to do whatever while they attempt to set up (considering that hax aren't ungodly too).Ignoring evasion is actually not as bad of a strategy as you might think. You may lose to it it is true, but on the other hand, you are much more likely to lose to Dragon Dancers if you dont prepare for them..
The upside is that we generally believe bans are bad things. Ideally, Pokemon would need zero modifications to be "competitive" - but we have Ubers, clauses, etc. This leads us to conclude that the fewer bans we have, the better it is for the metagame. The upside to testing evasion moves would be to prove the ban on them was unnecessary, and reduce the total number of bans in standard play.Perhaps we should ask what the benefits of evasion moves are to begin with. Why does anyone even want to see these in the metagame? What is the upside?
Just because the metagame is fine as it is doesn't mean we shouldn't bother trying to do things to it. (if I misinterpretted that, sorry).I'm all for saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Our metagame is (arguably) not broken.
Reminds me of Manaphy. You make a good point though.But then why should we ban these moves?
Because here at Smogon, its truly not Pokemon we ban, but sets.
I don't think it's so much Skymin we banned as its Choice/SubSeed/etc. sets. There used to be an SD Skymin. If someone used that on the ladder, would we have a problem? No way- that set was horrible. If someone used a Specsmin, would we have a problem? Yes, if the voice of the people is anything to go by.
Another good example (don't take this as saying that it shouldn't be tested still).Think of Articuno as the only non-Smeargle user of Mind Reader/Sheer Cold. Do we ban Articuno? No. Did we effectively ban that set? Yes.
In this same vein, do we have a problem with a physical wall Gliscor? No, unless it is through some failure of our teams. Therefore we do not ban it. But would we have a problem with a Double Team Gliscor? Heck yes, and through no failure of our own team building. Therefore, we ban that set
To readers, don't let this statement derail the discussion. OHKO moves are related but not (if you know what I mean). Don't start talking about their legality, though as an example it is ok.The only logical argument for banning a move in its entirety is that no matter what Pokemon it is on, it is broken. OHKO moves are. Any Pokemon can abuse them on its sets. It's not Earthquake that we banned, but only Earthquake on Garchomp- the move Earthquake itself is not broken.
Now here is where I'd have to say that testing is needed to conclude this. It's a statement without much proof to back it up. While the examples on what you were getting at is good, actual data is needed to make a claim about this.But any set that Double Team would show its face on would be just as broken as the greatest SD Garchomp could ever be.
I just used a Double Team Simple Bibarel with Luck Incense (works similar to brightpowder) in the battle tower. The evasion wasn't near as reliable as I had hoped. While I did set up twice as quick, it didn't give me any critical misses that I needed. Maybe it didn't help that I lacked recovery and couldn't take a hit worth @#$%, but I didn't pose much of a problem (thought this was to the AI, battle tower at that).(Interestingly, as a side note, on my cartridge I have a Sand Veil Double Team Garchomp. What a hypocrite I am. At least I don't use it on Wi-Fi, because I'm not a Wi-Fi nerd like some people. I never even wified once.)
Hipmonlee listed ways to stop DT that are already prevelant in the metagame. What he listed were counters. If you aren't running pokes with roar or whirlwind, then yeah, you'll have trouble with teams that use stat boosts or baton pass at their core.I'm all for saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Our metagame is (arguably) not broken. Why not improve it if we can?
Think of Articuno as the only non-Smeargle user of Mind Reader/Sheer Cold. Do we ban Articuno? No. Did we effectively ban that set? Yes. We banned OHKO moves in gen ONE and haven't retested them since. I don't think they should be considered as precedence for anything (the set you listed didn't even exist when the ban was made).
In this same vein, do we have a problem with a physical wall Gliscor? No, unless it is through some failure of our teams. Therefore we do not ban it. But would we have a problem with a Double Team Gliscor? Heck yes, and through no failure of our own team building. Therefore, we ban that set.
I would say if you have a problem with BT DT Gliscor it's a fault of your team, since as Hipmonlee, myself and others listed already, there are numerous COMMON counters to this strategy.
The only logical argument for banning a move in its entirety is that no matter what Pokemon it is on, it is broken. OHKO moves are. Any Pokemon can abuse them on its sets. It's not Earthquake that we banned, but only Earthquake on Garchomp- the move Earthquake itself is not broken.
But any set that Double Team would show its face on would be just as broken as the greatest SD Garchomp could ever be.
What evidence do you have that DT users would be just as broken as SD Garchomp??
EDIT: And with regard to Hipmonlee's earlier arguments which effect to saying that doing this or doing that would completely screw these DT sets, I say that having one Max Spa Choice Specs HP Ice Bronzong, one Choice Banded Ice Shard Weavile and one Choice Banded Ice Shard Mamoswine completely deal with Garchomp, and if you didn't carry those guys to deal with him then its your own fault if you get swept.
Bolded parts the things I had problems with.I can give a rough 90% of the common OU sweepers won't even miss that versitallity in their movesets. Take Kingdra as an example, it wouldn't miss that last slot of its moveset (Substitute and something else) whereas a Pokemon like Gengar might. Take note of how many OU, UU and Uber sweepers won't mind losing a slot for Double Team. Some sweepers like Metagross, Mewtwo and Bibarel can just exchange their primary stat rise for Double Team.
Now, onto what's really bothered me: Baton Pass Chains and Walls getting Double Team. Baton Pass chains definately bother me as they can give another Pokemon a +1 evaison boost while it keeps its versitality. Gliscor for example can Baton Pass a Double Team to Tyranitar who can just sweep from that single boost. Sturdy walls like Blissey can be given Double Team and be made virtually unstopable and after you manage to KO that said wall, 9 times out of 10, it would've already completed its task.
Anyway, Evaison doesn't really take away from the amount of versitallity a Pokemon gets, it just takes away that filler or "just in case" move. Hell, some sweepers don't even need Double Team to sweep.
Stealth Rock caused Rapid Spin use to go up and forced most users of SR to carry a Ghost to block RS.Alright, so Haze, an already rare move, is necessary on every team (probably at least twice in case you lose your hazer) to counter DT?
Because everyone's scared that we're going to end up with a metagame that only allows Wurmple.There is one thing I don't really understand in this topic.
Why, exactly, are bans being considered a bad thing?
It's really a silly thing to be scared of. People who advocate a greater number of bans are generally trying to increase variety, not decrease it. It's not like they get off on banning things.Because everyone's scared that we're going to end up with a metagame that only allows Wurmple.
It's still worth a shot. It's a very, very similar situation to the Shaymin-S vote; most uber votes had an extreme bias because they were haxed 2-3 times (and those were the only times they encountered it), throwing the vote. With the new voting system there may be a diminished effect of this, but there's no doubt that it'll be there. But we've got nothing to lose by trying.i think that evasion and ohko moves are something that are just untestable because there is so much bias against them they could never get a fair test. its just isn't gonna be feasable to test them IMO.
Sure, most of those moves are 100%, until Evasion is factored in. Considering that Evasion is passed to Blissey, I could see Toxic/Seismic Toss/Softboiled/Defense Curl being a @#$%&. Defense Curl means those KO moves won't do as much (when they actually hit!), softboiled for healing, and toxic to stall. Seismic Toss if for steels (better than Flamethrower as it also hits Heatran). If evasion is passed, Blissey can round herself out to be quite the problem.Second: One evasion boost would allow a TTar to sweep? I doubt it. And on baton pass teams wouldn't defensive boosts be a much more realiable way to boost their potential? I mean sure, defensive and evasion boosts would be hell, but if you're opponent let you get all the boosts, they would be screwed even if you didn't have evasion boosts. And with very dedicated walls like Blissey? Most of the moves that KO blissey are 100% accurate moves (Close Combat, Superpower, Explosion). And it's not like Blissey a lot of other dedicated walls can OHKO back. So they would be relying on luck a helluva lot and would most likely be happier with a more conservative strategy.
That is interesting. I didn't know that. But with a clearly open test, I feel that people will try to experiment with it and find some set that really works. And as mentioned, even if there isn't a flock of DT users on Smogon, there will still be a bias =/An interesting note: Double Team has been allowed on Official Server's ladder for awhile and there isn't a good Double Team hax team out there.
Remember that that's just a claim, you have no evidence to support that. And even so, you'd have to pick one or the other, leaving you vulnerable to what resists the one you picked (Gliscor lols at Thunder, while something like Heatran lols at Blizzard).Evasion would increase Rain or Hail teams with the Blizzard and Thunder usage also rising.
lol, that's actually kind of funny to think about. But from my experience most leads carry a fire move, or is T-Tar. And if I was passing DT, I wouldn't pass it to a choice users that could get walled and forced to switch (effectively removing the boosts).Personally I think if Shedinja used it, it would probably sweep teams unless there is Sandstorm/Hail (say its a lead w/o concern for SR/Spikes/TSpikes), and then Baton Pass them to something like a Choice Banded Metagross and just sweep.
Yes, but not all pokemon can use it effectively. But this raises the issue of if one (or five) pokemon become "broken" then is it DT's fault or the pokemon's fault? And which do we ban first?I dunno guys, it is worth a try, and it's not like only some get it, almost all Pokemon get it.
Most ways to "deal" with it are either not very common (such as yawn), not entirely effective (phazing and taunt can miss), or not used at all (no miss moves [save Aura Sphere, learned by 2 OU pokemon], Odor Sleuth, Gravity, etc). Counters to evasion are non-existant, and I'm not sure if you feel it, but it's difficult enough to handle every threat on the table as it is, so making room for near useless moves is difficult (which is why I agree the best way to deal with it is to ignore it).Let's also not forget Gravity, and other evasion modifiers. Evasion can be dealt with.
Very good question. It was already addressed, but thank you for making that point.There is one thing I don't really understand in this topic.
Why, exactly, are bans being considered a bad thing?
Various people are arguing that all other things being equal, a metagame with less bans is superior to a metagame with more bans. This does not seem trivially obvious, though.
I can't say that's exactly what we're aiming for. We're still going to test Soul Dew Lati@s (considering that one or both make OU), something Nintendo doesn't allow. We allow(ed) Shaymin-S to be played alongside sleep/freeze clause. We don't enforce an item clause. We allow various legends that Nintendo doesn't, and we play level 100 rather than 50. While we want to keep the game mechanics the same, yes, we aren't striving for Nintendo rules/regulations.We try to have a competitive metagame as true to the game that nintendo created. This means as few bans as possible without sacrificing a competitive environment.
Additionally, players will be more prepared for nintendo sponsored events, this is not a reason not to ban things, merely a bonus effect of not banning things.