Rock Slide isn't a contact move so why is Rugged Helmet relevant unless Doryuuzu is holding it?
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Excadrill
- Thread starter Rising_Dusk
- Start date
Rackham probably meant that if Dory is holding Rugged Helmet, Skarm can't just Roost off Brave Bird damage, since it takes the recoil + 12.5% each time, and Dory can just set up Swords Dance and try and flinch it with Rock Slide.
I think chople is actually a pretty damn good idea, as he doesn't really need LO, lefties serve a similar purpose, and balloon is only for other dory's and ditto. Aerial Ace, however, is just dumb. X-Scissor will do plenty, and if you run return, you can probably OHKO
Oh okay, I guess that makes sense but the context Rackham put it in confused me.
"Only for other dory's and ditto" umm what??? Balloon is useful for a huge variety of Pokemon. Hippowdon, Swampert, the aforementioned Ditto and Doryuuzu, Flygon, Gliscor, Quagsire, there are plenty of Pokemon which might otherwise check Dory that Balloon helps for. In general, I'd say Balloon > Life Orb > Lefties > Chople. Cool, you can get past Roobushin and Breloom, the former of which doesn't OHKO, but it doesn't have nearly the utility of the other items. Hell, I'd even put Shuca over Chople.
Yah sorry about that.Some guy was spamming that shit in the main chat then so i got pissed off >_>...
Well LO is deffnietly far superior if you have sweeping in mind.I cant disagree with this one bit.LO just hits much much more harder then Balloon or any other of those items ever can.But the biggest selling point of Balloon is that it effectively shorten your list of counters/checks and lets you set up on a fair share of pokes that you would have to switch out against.It also gives you a good check to opposing Dory which almost all teams sturggle to find as most of the time they cant afford to spend two slots for them.
Idk its up to preferrance really.LO for raw power and Balloon for Utility.Also Sandslash seems epic i really want to try it out now.Idk i never saw it before though :[
What if the Doryuuzu is a spinner with Mold Breaker?
Personally, I see Mold Breaker as absolutely amazing. It's easily one of the best spinners in the game. Admittedly, Mold Breaker would have been absolutely amazing against Rotom-A, but it's no longer a spin blocker.
Doryuuzu doesn't really need Mold Breaker. It's an amazing Spin Blocker naturally (very ghosts can actually spin block Doryuuzu) and Mold Breaker isn't worth the drop in speed.
Has anyone considered giving it Sand POWER instead of sand throw? Literally no Dory counters try to outspeed it anymore, so I'm just wondering if 910 attack from the get-go would be worth using as a hole puncher to support, say, RP Randorosu's sweep. IMO Ground Genie with Rock Polish is a much scarier sweeper than Doryuuzu anyways. I'm getting the feeling that if we used Dory with Sand Power as a lure to the bulky things that counter them both, we'd be getting much cooler results.
^ I thought about that and often reasoned that the gimmick would be cool for one turn until your opponent wises up and starts sending in faster checks. Since you're no longer faster than everything, you have to spend the entire match predicting what's going to come in so that you don't waste an SD if a sweeper comes in or you're not forced out immediately if a wall comes in.
And honestly, there's no reason to use Sand Power Doryuuzu over Landlos.
EDIT: Just read the above. I'm having trouble seeing how either of these guys would get past Gliscor. If you go first, you can get that +2 Rock Slide off, which now actually packs a little punch, but it won't kill and you will take that EQ. Unless we're talking about Adamant Balloon Dory? If you want to go wallbreaker, might as well go all the way; not much wants to go full Speed in the 80s tier anymore.
And honestly, there's no reason to use Sand Power Doryuuzu over Landlos.
EDIT: Just read the above. I'm having trouble seeing how either of these guys would get past Gliscor. If you go first, you can get that +2 Rock Slide off, which now actually packs a little punch, but it won't kill and you will take that EQ. Unless we're talking about Adamant Balloon Dory? If you want to go wallbreaker, might as well go all the way; not much wants to go full Speed in the 80s tier anymore.
30% hax is not enough to start saying it's not a counter. Your opponent understands the odds for it are slim as well and will usually switch if they can. The REAL problem is having your only Water STAB being Hydro Pump, and an untimely miss could spell game over for you.
I've used Tr sand power doryuzzu well
I don't quite understand something. I opted for Iron Defense instead of Swords Dance for a few matches. With +4 defense, more seemed to fall from the "reduced damage Doryuuzu". I thought Dory had worse SPECIAL defense. Is it just common to 'counter' by hitting super-effective at the physical end? Or do the special damage moves available to certain attacking types (Ground, Fighting) just suck? Could have been my Sand Power and Magic Room though.
Maybe I should change PO servers.
Maybe I should change PO servers.
Interestingly, Doryuuzu is actually fairly useful for semistall teams who need a spinner. It's great for bluffing a more offensive team, and it can revenge kill other Dorys. I'm using max HP / max Spe, and it's suprisingly bulky.
... this is pretty similar to using Heatproof on Bronzong over Levitate because noone expects it, isn't it? Your opponent will probably figure out that you're using Sand Power pretty quickly due to how much damage you'll be doing, though. (I can't really say much more than that, since I haven't exactly tried it myself.)
(Iron Defense Dory, heh.) Most Dory counters use either Mach Punch or EQ to damage it, so that's why it ended up working fairly well for you, I suppose. Why else would people use Balloon (or even Chople Berry) Dory? Honestly, the only special move that might work for this is probably Vacuum Wave, which almost nothing gets, and how many Special Attackers can outspeed/take a hit from Doryuuzu and OHKO back, anyway?
List of things that get vacuum wave that matter:
Mew
Blaziken
Infernape
Lucario
Toxicroak
List of things that don't lose to EQ:
Mew
Coincidentally, the list of things that hope that Dory doesn't have X-Scissor is identical to the list immediately above.
Mew
Blaziken
Infernape
Lucario
Toxicroak
List of things that don't lose to EQ:
Mew
Coincidentally, the list of things that hope that Dory doesn't have X-Scissor is identical to the list immediately above.
... yes, they do get Vacuum Wave, but how many of them commonly use it? Let's check the statistics (I like statistics):
Mew: appears on 1,39% of all teams and carries Vacuum Wave around 2,5% of the time. Not something to worry about. (Wow, Mew is surprisingly unpopular.)
Blaziken: Vacuum Wave is a tutor move - as such, it's incompatible with Speed Bost and practically never used.
Infernape: appears on 3.89% of all teams and carries Vacuum Wave around 5,5% of the time. I suppose this could pose a problem to Dory, but it's rather unlikely.
Lucario: the most problematic of the bunch. Vacuum Wave on Luke is pretty common this gen, it seems, and Lucario itself isn't that uncommon (being on 3,68% of all teams) compared to many other pokémon.
Toxicroak: again, Vacuum Wave is seen fairly often on it, sometimes even with a Balloon, but it's only actually used on 1,6% of all teams.
... in other words, Doryuuzu will rarely need to worry about these, unless you're trying to come up with a set that specifically counters Iron Defense Dory, which I doubt.
BurningMan
fueled by beer
why?
i doubt Mew can take a +2 EQ and 2HKO back with Vaccuum Wave (Specs Luke only barely OHKOs and its stabbed with higher SpA).
Dorys only real Worrys are Skarmory, Roopushin, Gliscor (wich can be KOed with +2 Return with a little prior Damage unless it runs a significant amount of Def EVs), 252/252 HP Def Suicune, very bulky Gyaras and Defensive Rotom-W. Iron Defense is intresting, but a gimmick seeing as there are a lot of Threats that can take an unboosted Attack from Dory and KO back with a Special Water or Fire Attack.
That was my general idea. The main reason I'd use such a thing is to OHKO prospective opposing Hippowdon, bulky waters, or to put a dent in Gliscor/Landlos on the opposing side enough for your own to sweep. Landlos' Special Attack is pretty acceptable, and with Hidden Power Ice, you could say bye bye to any Gliscor or Landlos that had to take a +2 Adamant Rock Slide from Sand Power Doryuuzu the turn previous. It's not like Rock Polish Landlos really wants to be using U-Turn, anyways.
List of things that get vacuum wave that can benefit from Balloon:
Lucario
Blaziken
Come in on the Swords Dance and destroy with STAB Aura Sphere/HJK, with Vacuum wave priority defeating prospective Sash that will inevitably come up. Seriously, Vacuum Wave/Dark Pulse/HP Ice/Aura Sphere Balloon Lucario has been the star of several of my teams thus far. He packs a serious punch, and counters many nasty sandstorm team members without blinking an eye.
Just so you know, Doryuuzu actually has more special defense than defense, so your wrong. (60 def vs 65 sp.def)
I was looking through this guy's movepool for usable Steel move and found nothing.
It's a pity (or maybe fortunate) that it doesn't get a good Steel STAB like Iron Head.
It's a total fit flavour-wise as well so I guess GF had its reasons.
Iron Head would function pretty much like a more powerful Return with a flinch chance.
Steel has great neutral coverage and most resists can't take both EQ and Rock Slide.
It's a pity (or maybe fortunate) that it doesn't get a good Steel STAB like Iron Head.
It's a total fit flavour-wise as well so I guess GF had its reasons.
Iron Head would function pretty much like a more powerful Return with a flinch chance.
Steel has great neutral coverage and most resists can't take both EQ and Rock Slide.
As I have said in another thread:
Gliscor counters dory REALLY well. Mine (which has 244 HP EVs, and rest for 250 atk and 360 def with impish nature) takes about 30% from a +2 rock slide from baloon dory. So it can switch in on the SD/whatever, acro the baloon away if any and then KO with EQ. If dory has LO instead I guess that means that he hits you for 40-45%ish instead of 30% but then you can skip the acrobat step.
I mean, gliscor is about as good a dory counter as you can get. I have killed dorys after getting critflinched by them which says a bit about how well it can take the hits.
Gliscor counters dory REALLY well. Mine (which has 244 HP EVs, and rest for 250 atk and 360 def with impish nature) takes about 30% from a +2 rock slide from baloon dory. So it can switch in on the SD/whatever, acro the baloon away if any and then KO with EQ. If dory has LO instead I guess that means that he hits you for 40-45%ish instead of 30% but then you can skip the acrobat step.
I mean, gliscor is about as good a dory counter as you can get. I have killed dorys after getting critflinched by them which says a bit about how well it can take the hits.
in fact, 1,5.1,5 = 2,25.
(2,25-2)/2 = 12,5% stronger than baloon dory after SD.