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Heavy Offense
- Thread starter The SPrinkLer
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Yeah, that's how easy it is when utilizing dual screens, though would it be HO if your not starting off with a heavily offensive pokemon?
Decided to try out HO on an alt with what is more or less Anachronism's team with a few variations much like 1338 has done.
At first I had a little trouble in deciding which sweeper would be the best to start off the match and open up for the rest of my team. I got the hang of it fairly quickly in a very short time I've gotten to 1400 in rating with very few losses although I'd probably be higher if it wasn't for a few extreme cases of hax.
I'd keep going but I've gotten very bored with this style of play, I generally play bulky offense or stall and having most of the prediction taken out of the game makes HO seem pretty stale to me. For some reason just trying to get to achieve a sweep just isn't that fun for me. There were a few cases that made me laugh however like when one opponent allowed me to get a +6 Scizor with no effort or when I swept with a +3/3 paralyzed Tyranitar.
At first I had a little trouble in deciding which sweeper would be the best to start off the match and open up for the rest of my team. I got the hang of it fairly quickly in a very short time I've gotten to 1400 in rating with very few losses although I'd probably be higher if it wasn't for a few extreme cases of hax.
I'd keep going but I've gotten very bored with this style of play, I generally play bulky offense or stall and having most of the prediction taken out of the game makes HO seem pretty stale to me. For some reason just trying to get to achieve a sweep just isn't that fun for me. There were a few cases that made me laugh however like when one opponent allowed me to get a +6 Scizor with no effort or when I swept with a +3/3 paralyzed Tyranitar.
I prefer running heavily offensive teams, but the thing i always run into is that theres always a stall team waiting to stall you out.
^in simplest form.
What i mean is , with the rampant amount of stall teams out there, its really hard to defeat them with hyper offense. Considering stall has less risk, takes less prediction and less skill and offense is the opposite.
^in simplest form.
What i mean is , with the rampant amount of stall teams out there, its really hard to defeat them with hyper offense. Considering stall has less risk, takes less prediction and less skill and offense is the opposite.
First of all, this is HEAVY offense we're talking about, not hyper offense. Hyper offense consists of a myriad of physical, special, and wallbreakers usually, whereas heavy offense consists of all attacks of one side (physical or special). Secondly, nothing in Pokemon has any higher "skill" requirement than any other element/style of play. The difference matters in how you play and what your opinions are on risk vs. reward and prediction.
I enjoy playing heavy offense, and stall is the easiest type of team for me to beat. With a team that is centered around attacking on only one side of the spectrum, it focuses all the beating on a few members of a well-built stall team. If you specialize your playstyle even more, say to powerful physical fighting-type attacks, it lessens the number of Pokemon that are built to stop that even more. Even the best walls will have trouble taking +2 attacks from strong sweepers over and over. Once the few members (sometimes it's only one) that resist your attacks are taken down, you've basically beaten stall, as nothing they have will outspeed and threaten you.
Idk, I've been on the leaderboard with both stall and HO and when I don't think the match up is quite the blowout people make it out to be. A lot of pokemon on stall can make your life hard (scarf rachi, latias, skarmory, hippowdon, swampert, rotom, celebi) and while Ho is a a bit much to handle its not like stall won't be prepared for all your sweepers, at least individually.
Heavy Offense has been working fine for my battles so far. Giving me a win-loss ratio of 5:1 which is cool when comparing it to my stall team.
I have a few issues I would like to raise though...
Is it viable to use booth Salamence and Dragonite in HO teams? Well, since HO teams utilize Pokemon which are basically walled by the same Poke's then how about DD Salamence and DD Dragonite? They usually pack an almost identical movepool (DD, Outrage, EQ and a Fire Attack). Consequently,this leads both of them to be walled by the same Pokes.
I have a few issues I would like to raise though...
Is it viable to use booth Salamence and Dragonite in HO teams? Well, since HO teams utilize Pokemon which are basically walled by the same Poke's then how about DD Salamence and DD Dragonite? They usually pack an almost identical movepool (DD, Outrage, EQ and a Fire Attack). Consequently,this leads both of them to be walled by the same Pokes.
Well, stall usually has more than one physically bulky Pokemon (read: Hippowdon/Swampert, Rotom-A, Skarm/Forry, Gyarados) and may even use things like Scarfed Jirachi and Magnezone to cause you more trouble. The alternative is trying to sweep on the special side, but then Latias and Scizor crap all over you, as has been mentioned many times. Basically: don't expect 90-10 odds against stall. I think HO has an advantage, but not an insurmountable one.
Then again, I'm not the greatest pilot in the world, so I may not have the measure of Hyper Offense v. Heavy Stall as well as some others, so weigh in, other people!
Then again, I'm not the greatest pilot in the world, so I may not have the measure of Hyper Offense v. Heavy Stall as well as some others, so weigh in, other people!
It's absolutely viable. First of all, you don't need to run the exact same moveset on both, both Salamence and Dragonite can perform the role of the mixed attacker hitting hard from both the sides of the attacking spectrum, and anyway if you pack a double screener even running two dragon dance sets is feasible to an extent.
Aslo it's pretty hard to find a sure counter for things like DD Mence (and DD Nite is in a similar position), unless you're dumb and start spamming outrage early in the game. Lots of teams have no safe switch into Salamence (and Dragonite) and they just resort to revenge killing it with things like Scizor or Lucario (after SS and SR have weakened it enough), so yeah, why not trying to abuse them? Obviously Magnezone makes a great support Pokemon in these situations as it not only can, sometimes (fuck you shed shell), trap Skarmory\Forretress, but it also prevents SD Scizor from sweeping your team if it maneges to set up a SD on an outrage locked dragon.
Haunter said:
Spamming Outrage is pretty much the easiest way to win if you use both dragonite and salamence. The only steel that always runs recovery is skarmory (Jirachi and Scizor occasionally do too), who can only ww in return. All other steels are 2HKOd with SR, so two successive outrages will do the trick, and generally outrage also kos something before the steel even manages to come in, which means that you will probably kill a poke and then cripple a steel from a single outrage cycle. If you can pull off 3 outrage cycles with your 2 dragons, you probably have killed both steels and 2-3 other pokes. Getting 3 outrage cycles isn't hard either considering you will have screens up for the first few turns and both dragons (should) have lum berries.
Hmmm, I'm just theorymoning here, but how viable would Daul Screen Magnezone be in Heavy Offense? It seems that it would function extremely well. It would still be able to OHKO Scizor (give it HP Fire), and probably all the other steels out there. Plus, on Scizor's choiced moves that present no threat to Magnezone, it can set up Daul Screens and kill what seems to be the number one threat to most things that don't resist steel, Scizor. Compared to the Choice Scarf set, it doesn't really lose anything. It has greater surviveability, thanks to the screens. Most people just use it to kill Scizor, hence you don't need the random extra speed (I'm not really saying the speed isn't important at all, I'm just saying the dual screens are more helpful for a HO then the extra speed). This is just theorymon, but I definitely think that it's worth testing. I probably will, but I think other people should too.
DSzone would actually be quite helpful in HO being able to set up on Scizor. The only setback is its weakness to Brick break which will probably rise in usage along with the creation of these teams. Rotom-W sees much use as a DS user being immune to Brick Break and with the most common users being choiced it'll be quite easy to set it back up again. The problem is it's pursuit weak....
I'd have to agree with the Brick Break thing. The best way to use it would get it on a choiced Scizor locked into Bullet Punch or Pursuit, set up the Daul Screens, and Explode. You would then go to your set-up sweeper, and so on. The big problem is if they don't have a Scizor, and when they see Magnezone they go to their Brick Breaker. Currently, I think the best thing to do with Heavy Offense is use Daul Screens as really, really good support, but don't rely on them. If you rely on them and they have a Brick Breaker... You can guess what will happen that battle.
Also, has anybody tried Rotom-A as a lead? It would seem that it basically has gauranteed set up on all top 10 leads, besides of course Roserade and Smeargle. This is fantastic for Heavy Offense teams, except it does have one major problem - it can't set up Stealth Rock. This is pretty big. If you don't get it up at nearly the very start of the battle, I doubt you'll have another chance. You need to keep the pace moving, and put the opponent under pressure. I doubt using Stealth Rock in the middle of the battle is really going to help fulfill that goal. I guess it just depends on how much you need Stealth Rock. But if there was a good and reliable way to get Stealth Rock up in the middle of the match, I'd imagine that Rotom-A would be a good daul screen lead.
Also, has anybody tried Rotom-A as a lead? It would seem that it basically has gauranteed set up on all top 10 leads, besides of course Roserade and Smeargle. This is fantastic for Heavy Offense teams, except it does have one major problem - it can't set up Stealth Rock. This is pretty big. If you don't get it up at nearly the very start of the battle, I doubt you'll have another chance. You need to keep the pace moving, and put the opponent under pressure. I doubt using Stealth Rock in the middle of the battle is really going to help fulfill that goal. I guess it just depends on how much you need Stealth Rock. But if there was a good and reliable way to get Stealth Rock up in the middle of the match, I'd imagine that Rotom-A would be a good daul screen lead.
Incidentally, if you want a guaranteed setup of screens, the following is an excellent lead.
Alakazam (M) @ Light Clay
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP/6 Def/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Encore
- Taunt
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Lol at Alakazam using Jolly. Anyways, it beats Azelf, which is huge, but I guarantee that you will hate not having Stealth Rock up, especially when your Pokemon just fail to OHKO/2HKO something and get killed in return. I don't have specific targets for you, but it has happened to me quite a few times in the past when playing Hyperoffense.
Regarding your other point: I have not tested this, but a Bronzong can reliably get up screens and Stealth Rock in the middle of a match. However, Azelf is the best lead for HO, no questions asked.
Alakazam (M) @ Light Clay
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP/6 Def/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Encore
- Taunt
---
Lol at Alakazam using Jolly. Anyways, it beats Azelf, which is huge, but I guarantee that you will hate not having Stealth Rock up, especially when your Pokemon just fail to OHKO/2HKO something and get killed in return. I don't have specific targets for you, but it has happened to me quite a few times in the past when playing Hyperoffense.
Regarding your other point: I have not tested this, but a Bronzong can reliably get up screens and Stealth Rock in the middle of a match. However, Azelf is the best lead for HO, no questions asked.
Considering that the 2 aforementioned dragons are weak to SR, if Skarmory manages to whirlwind them away, it has accomplished its task nicely as they'll likely come in with 50% of their HP or less next time, being susceptible to revenge killing via priority even easier. That's why I think that you should be careful when spamming outrage early in the game. Nonetheless, giving something like Scizor or agil-Gross the chance to set up is extemely dangerous for offensive based teams.
And I'm not sure about the lum berry part, as DD Mence (and DD Nite for analogy) often needs life orb to score some important ohko - bulky waters like Swampert and Vaporeon are fine examples.
In using Lum Berry I haven't found the power loss to be that big of an issue because you're really just trying to punch holes in the opponents team until you can achieve a sweep. With Dragonite however there are times where a little extra power would be nice but it's not that I expect to sweep a team with him anyways so just the fact that he can open up the door for Lucario and friends makes it not matter so much. Avoiding confusion or continuing to set up while they use a status move is going to be beneficial more often than Life Orb imo.
I have to agree with your sentiments about Scizor especially. It's shocking sometimes how some people will permit you 2 turns of set up and play as though they still have a fighting chance. Not even would be sure-fire counters such as Zapdos and Gyarados can withstand that much power. SD Scizor should almost be a staple on any HO team, just having the extra priority user is a huge plus for revenge killing weakened mons.
I have to agree with your sentiments about Scizor especially. It's shocking sometimes how some people will permit you 2 turns of set up and play as though they still have a fighting chance. Not even would be sure-fire counters such as Zapdos and Gyarados can withstand that much power. SD Scizor should almost be a staple on any HO team, just having the extra priority user is a huge plus for revenge killing weakened mons.
Another HO question
Personally, I haven't found SD Scizor to be all that good, probably because I'm using a specially based HO team.
Anyway, how viable is using [non-Scarf] Roserade as a lead, because I'm thinking about making two of my sweepers into sets that really like Toxic Spikes. The obvious problem with this is the lack of SR, increasing the chances that a Salamence could come in and blow through the team.
Any thoughts?
Personally, I haven't found SD Scizor to be all that good, probably because I'm using a specially based HO team.
Anyway, how viable is using [non-Scarf] Roserade as a lead, because I'm thinking about making two of my sweepers into sets that really like Toxic Spikes. The obvious problem with this is the lack of SR, increasing the chances that a Salamence could come in and blow through the team.
Any thoughts?
SD Scizor is actually one of the most dangerous physical sweeper, although the appearances of Heatran, Infernape, Scarf Magnezone(common w/HP Fire) and/or Rotom (w/WoW) will really stop Scizor in its track. I've been able to lift off a few surprise sweeps after Scizor manages to get 2 SDs with Dual Screen support, and then taking out all of the weakened would-be counters to Scizor. Having some team members that will attract the above counters and able to severely weaken them is a huge plus for Scizor. Stealth Rock and possibly sandstorm would really help.
Sometimes I've been thinking about equipping Occa Berry to Scizor and using Dual Screen just to further boost the chances of preventing something like Scarf HP Fire Magnezone from completely annihilating him when Scizor's somewhere down in the 64% HP. However, the use of Iron Plate/Life Orb has been proven more useful when properly supported by Dual Screen. Then a sudden realization came to me: what if it's a Life Orb Scizor supported by Dual Screen AND Rain Dance? Ka-Ching~ $$$
I dare anyone to make a team based around SD Scizor. He's pretty damn deadly with the proper supports.
Sometimes I've been thinking about equipping Occa Berry to Scizor and using Dual Screen just to further boost the chances of preventing something like Scarf HP Fire Magnezone from completely annihilating him when Scizor's somewhere down in the 64% HP. However, the use of Iron Plate/Life Orb has been proven more useful when properly supported by Dual Screen. Then a sudden realization came to me: what if it's a Life Orb Scizor supported by Dual Screen AND Rain Dance? Ka-Ching~ $$$
I dare anyone to make a team based around SD Scizor. He's pretty damn deadly with the proper supports.
Since we're talking about SD Scizors, I might as well show my set as well.
Scizor@ Life Orb
Technician
200 HP/252 Atk/56 Def
Adamant
- Bug Bite
- Bullet Punch
- Quick Attack
- Swords Dance
Not only is it useful for sponging Outrages and locked resists, it hits like a truck. It can KO many things with either BP or Quick Attack when SR is up. In addition, Bug Bite is a very strong STAB move that can cripple even some of the bulkiest pokemon as long as it isn't resisted. It also makes a good check against opposing Scarfers not named Heatran, Jirachi, or Magnazone.
Scizor@ Life Orb
Technician
200 HP/252 Atk/56 Def
Adamant
- Bug Bite
- Bullet Punch
- Quick Attack
- Swords Dance
Not only is it useful for sponging Outrages and locked resists, it hits like a truck. It can KO many things with either BP or Quick Attack when SR is up. In addition, Bug Bite is a very strong STAB move that can cripple even some of the bulkiest pokemon as long as it isn't resisted. It also makes a good check against opposing Scarfers not named Heatran, Jirachi, or Magnazone.
Maybe switch Leftovers to Iron Plate to bluff Choice Band when Scizor uses U-Turn. If the opponent sees the Leftovers effect, the usefulness of the surprise factor in this set would be greatly reduced. Besides that, your Scizor set already has Roost for the recovery.
what I used to do when playing water offense is use sleep powder toxic spikes focus sash venomoth (shield dust prevented jirachi from flinching me which was huge) in order to set up toxic spikes which helped to kill the waters that were the only things that could wall me. in this metagame, roserade is probably better for the job, since jirachi has gone away and super strong leaf storms are just huge (125 atk vs 95 atk lol) (also hp ice is the best hidden power just so that salamence can't blow you away), plus the extra special bulk is always appreciated. go for it
I can try to take up the challenge of an SD scizor based team. Actually, I've got it planned: the team name, Public enemy #1. Anyone else want to do this with me?
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