Please do, although it’s probably too early to acknowledge some of the biggest threats in the metagame and check them. It would probably just be like a set dump with some vague synergy (no offence).
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Metagame Hot Potato
- Thread starter Ginger Princess
- Start date
it will be good now even if not viable later. Also I think tda is making a sample team section we did bui ld a team together for a sample team
Fair enough, I think it’s almost time to do my massive set dump, am I right or right? On a serious note, stuff like V-create are seriously annoying to deal with. On wherever it’s playable, does the bot have a team yet?
E: I’m just imagining and ssbb version of this in the Mashups room. /force win chaos becoming unviable
Disagree with unbanning Aegislash. The typical three attacks + king's shield set will function pretty much similar to normal, since its main stab (shadow ball) is special and doesn't care about attack drops. King's Shield accomplishes what it does in standard play, which is returning Aegislash to Shield forme and weakening the foe's next physical hit. Shadow Sneak also lets it bypass that by hitting the foe before it can pass the attack drops back. The only move that will be affected are secondary physical moves like Sacred Sword. Realistically I could only see this really affecting the mediocre Swords Dance sets Aegislash can run, the other sets will continue just clicking Shadow Ball, picking off foes with Shadow Sneak, or tanking hits from Dark types then taking them out with Sacred Sword or even HP Fighting if you don't want to chance it with Attack drops. I don't see much that indicates that Aegislash would be more balanced this time around. Most of the most improved mons and moves are fairly poor against Aegislash too. It is immune to Superpower and Close Combat which are one of the most common and improved moves overall. The most improved Fire type, Victini, is not a switch-in and must be kept pristine in order to not be picked off by Shadow Sneak. It checks most Guts mons too and can beat them even if it gets burned due to its special attacks, and is immune to toxic or course. The best thing I can see is going into a fat RestTalk mon and trying to put it to sleep. Even if it is balanced I don't think it would be good for the health of this meta right now
https://pokepast.es/ec6fefd102131d1b (dark pulse should be sucker punch)
https://pokepast.es/cdc7ddde4144d06f
https://pokepast.es/470f2dfa496a8e94
https://pokepast.es/e53ce674e1ae85b5
https://pokepast.es/cdc7ddde4144d06f
https://pokepast.es/470f2dfa496a8e94
https://pokepast.es/e53ce674e1ae85b5
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I agree but the metagame seems good vs aeg. Also honestly many mons seem like they are better than aeg. And 5050s imo can be avoided. and 2bh wallin g aeg is easy(I am a bss player so I do fight it alot although different metas alot of the same mons and imo banning aeg was not needed I do see you being right but a suspect seems appropriate
OK, I think this Mon hasn't been mentioned yet, but heatran seems like a convenient wall in this metagame, immune to both toxic and burn, meaning a teammate scared of those can just switch to heatran to avoid them. Not only that, it does get overheat to weaken special opposing hits and will-o-wisp to cripple physical switch-ins as well (though only for like one turn). Would Heatran fare better in here than in OU standard, or would the Gliscors and Conks chase it off?
I know this is a crappy offensive set, but my brain is dead at the moment, and these are potential sets so....
DEAD MEMES (Heatran) @ Grassium Z / Firium Z
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Earth Power
- Overheat
- Flame Charge
- Solar Beam / Nature Power
WHAT V-CREATE? (Heatran) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat / Toxic
- Taunt
- Protect
- Earth Power
DEAD MEMES (Heatran) @ Grassium Z / Firium Z
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Earth Power
- Overheat
- Flame Charge
- Solar Beam / Nature Power
WHAT V-CREATE? (Heatran) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat / Toxic
- Taunt
- Protect
- Earth Power
May add more later, but that's all for now.
Stat Debuffs? Where? (Serperior) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Spa / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Dragon Pulse / Synthesis
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Typical 'Sweep Everything' Serperior, but now it can take advantage of stat debuffs headed its way. Just be careful not to die to close combats and you should generally be fine. Wish support is always nice to back this snake. Also, defog to clear hazards for good and get that evasion boost from your opponent trying to get rid of you.
Toxic? Where? (Scizor-Mega) (M) @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 SpD
Impish Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- U-turn
- Roost
Bulky Pivoting Scizor-Mega with superpower to soften up the opposing attacker before u-turning out, clearing hazards for incoming teammates to wall-break as well. Nice.
Memes and Dreams (Accelgor) (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Knock Off
- Final Gambit
- Toxic Spikes
Set up whatever hazard you know your opponent's gonna hate, and final gambit to ensure hazards stay firmly on the opponents side for your teammate to switch in. Fast wall-breakers and slow and bulky Volt-Turners take advantage of this well, forcing hazards to stay on the opposing side.
My Shell is Sturdy (Shuckle) @ Mental Herb
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Sticky Web
- Stealth Rock
- Final Gambit
- Encore
Same as accelgor, but with sticky web and stealth rock this time, hence, stick with the strategy above and final gambit if possible to allow teammates to come in. (Intentional pun is intentional)
Stat Debuffs? Where? (Serperior) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Spa / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Dragon Pulse / Synthesis
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Typical 'Sweep Everything' Serperior, but now it can take advantage of stat debuffs headed its way. Just be careful not to die to close combats and you should generally be fine. Wish support is always nice to back this snake. Also, defog to clear hazards for good and get that evasion boost from your opponent trying to get rid of you.
Toxic? Where? (Scizor-Mega) (M) @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 SpD
Impish Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- U-turn
- Roost
Bulky Pivoting Scizor-Mega with superpower to soften up the opposing attacker before u-turning out, clearing hazards for incoming teammates to wall-break as well. Nice.
Memes and Dreams (Accelgor) (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Knock Off
- Final Gambit
- Toxic Spikes
Set up whatever hazard you know your opponent's gonna hate, and final gambit to ensure hazards stay firmly on the opponents side for your teammate to switch in. Fast wall-breakers and slow and bulky Volt-Turners take advantage of this well, forcing hazards to stay on the opposing side.
My Shell is Sturdy (Shuckle) @ Mental Herb
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Sticky Web
- Stealth Rock
- Final Gambit
- Encore
Same as accelgor, but with sticky web and stealth rock this time, hence, stick with the strategy above and final gambit if possible to allow teammates to come in. (Intentional pun is intentional)
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Tol
Retirement house
Is anyone else thinking that Cloyster is gonna be really good in this meta? Go after your opponent->smash then next turn using a multihit move seems really broken considering its good bulk. At the very least it’s always gonna kill one thing.
Of course, this is assuming that multihit moves work like hit->pass->hit->pass etc. which they should iirc. Imagine the goddamn thing with a king’s rock... >imagine getting to move amirite
It would practically necessitate running an electric type or uber special nuke on every team, since ice/water(can we get a liquidation being even better if the drop is passed back to you)/maybe spike cannon or rock blast is unresisted coverage. Also, seconded on heatran being really cool. Being able to counter Victini while also maintaining its status immunities and passing around overheat nerfs and probably beating aegi if it gets released makes it a really solid mon. Oh yeah, did I mention Cloyster gets hazards to punish anyone who wants to switch?
Of course, this is assuming that multihit moves work like hit->pass->hit->pass etc. which they should iirc. Imagine the goddamn thing with a king’s rock... >imagine getting to move amirite
It would practically necessitate running an electric type or uber special nuke on every team, since ice/water(can we get a liquidation being even better if the drop is passed back to you)/maybe spike cannon or rock blast is unresisted coverage. Also, seconded on heatran being really cool. Being able to counter Victini while also maintaining its status immunities and passing around overheat nerfs and probably beating aegi if it gets released makes it a really solid mon. Oh yeah, did I mention Cloyster gets hazards to punish anyone who wants to switch?
Toxic and burn will still effect heatran if passed.
Also I think theorycrafting the vr could be nice idk exactly tho. Also plan on sharing.more teams.
My point was that while the opponent can get rid of status inflicted on themselves, Heatran can simply stop said statuses from being inflicted on teammates that don't want them, like Medicham-Mega who hates burns. It should also be said that stall is gonna take a hit to its viability when all status inflicted on opponents gonna get passed back to you when they attack you. Also, most fast Scald users like Keldeo also somewhat hate this meta as scald burn is pretty much gonna get passed back to them before the turn ends.
Hot Potato? More like "Screw Scald and Stall: The Meta"
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That's an evil metagame
One little problem with your Accelgor set: Accelgor doesn't learn Sticky Web. (Otherwise, since it outspeeds so much, I'd think we'd all run it instead of Ribombee.)May add more later, but that's all for now.
Stat Debuffs? Where? (Serperior) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Spa / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Dragon Pulse / Synthesis
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Typical 'Sweep Everything' Serperior, but now it can take advantage of stat debuffs headed its way. Just be careful not to die to close combats and you should generally be fine. Wish support is always nice to back this snake. Also, defog to clear hazards for good and get that evasion boost from your opponent trying to get rid of you.
Toxic? Where? (Scizor-Mega) (M) @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 SpD
Impish Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- U-turn
- Roost
Bulky Pivoting Scizor-Mega with superpower to soften up the opposing attacker before u-turning out, clearing hazards for incoming teammates to wall-break as well. Nice.
Memes and Dreams (Accelgor) (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Hydration
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sticky Web
- Knock Off
- Final Gambit
- Toxic Spikes
Set up whatever hazard you know your opponent's gonna hate, and final gambit to ensure hazards stay firmly on the opponents side for your teammate to switch in. Fast wall-breakers and Volt-Turners take advantage of this well, forcing hazards to stay on the opposing side.
Who would ever use defog serp unless they are hazard weak. Most.of the time idc about hazards sweet scent is where it is at.OK, I think this Mon hasn't been mentioned yet, but heatran seems like a convenient wall in this metagame, immune to both toxic and burn, meaning a teammate scared of those can just switch to heatran to avoid them. Not only that, it does get overheat to weaken special opposing hits and will-o-wisp to cripple physical switch-ins as well (though only for like one turn). Would Heatran fare better in here than in OU standard, or would the Gliscors and Conks chase it off?
I know this is a crappy offensive set, but my brain is dead at the moment, and these are potential sets so....
DEAD MEMES (Heatran) @ Grassium Z / Firium Z
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Earth Power
- Overheat
- Flame Charge
- Solar Beam / Nature Power
WHAT V-CREATE? (Heatran) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat / Toxic
- Taunt
- Protect
- Earth Power
May add more later, but that's all for now.
Stat Debuffs? Where? (Serperior) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Spa / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Dragon Pulse / Synthesis
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Typical 'Sweep Everything' Serperior, but now it can take advantage of stat debuffs headed its way. Just be careful not to die to close combats and you should generally be fine. Wish support is always nice to back this snake. Also, defog to clear hazards for good and get that evasion boost from your opponent trying to get rid of you.
Toxic? Where? (Scizor-Mega) (M) @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 SpD
Impish Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- U-turn
- Roost
Bulky Pivoting Scizor-Mega with superpower to soften up the opposing attacker before u-turning out, clearing hazards for incoming teammates to wall-break as well. Nice.
Memes and Dreams (Accelgor) (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Hydration
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sticky Web
- Knock Off
- Final Gambit
- Toxic Spikes
Set up whatever hazard you know your opponent's gonna hate, and final gambit to ensure hazards stay firmly on the opponents side for your teammate to switch in. Fast wall-breakers and Volt-Turners take advantage of this well, forcing hazards to stay on the opposing side.
Different approaches and their issues:
- Replacing scripts using a mod
- Pro: Effects happen exactly when you want
- Con: Hard to keep up-to-date
- Using the AfterDamage event
- Pro: Automatically ignores failed attacks and status moves and hits against Substitute
- Con: Effects happen before natural secondaries and other effects such as Flame Body
- Con: Effects happen on the first turn of a multi-hit move
- Using the AfterMoveSecondary event
- Pro: Automatically ignores failed attacks
- Con: Need to check for status moves and hits breaking Substitute
- Con: Doesn't happen if user has Sheer Force
- Using the AfterMove event
- Con: Need to check for failed moves, status moves, and hits breaking Substitute
- Con: Doesn't work for moves that call moves e.g. Me First, Mirror Move, Nature Power
Please do
The point is that contrary will raise serperiors evasiveness and get rid of hazards at the same time, which is invaluable
I dont see my self worrying about hazards much. Defog is not invaluable, sub sweetscent on most teams would be better than defog. Maybe on like a volcarona team id run defog serp.
OOF. Should have been spikes. Changed it already. Also added shuckle if you all want a sticky web setter
The last quote explains my intention with defog, but honestly, change as you wish. Defog can help get rid of unwanted hazards if you don't wanna deal with the hazards game, but if you're confident the hazards won't hurt your team, sweet scent achieves the evasion boost without clearing useful hazards that cripple your opponent.
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I was actually thinking of using the AfterDamage event at first, but then I realized the mentioned cons and decided to go for a modified moveHit approach
Simple Scald replacement: use Surf. Keldeo can learn Surf, so is most of the mons that learn Scald.
Stall is screwed? Well... probably not. Stuff like CM Mega Slowbro and Mega Latias now can’t just be Toxic’d and call it a day.
Stall is screwed? Well... probably not. Stuff like CM Mega Slowbro and Mega Latias now can’t just be Toxic’d and call it a day.
Careful. The Toxic timer doesn't reset when passed. Given the number of times stall presses a recovery move on average, they're more likely to end up with the lethal Badly Poisoned status at the end of the turn. Stall pretty much needs a cleric, Rest user, Misty Terrain user/Tapu Fini, Refresh user, Steel-type, Poison-type, Poison Heal mon, Magic Guard mon, or Natural Cure mon or Toxic spam will kill it every time.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7randomhotpotato-6593
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7hotpotato-6594
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7hotpotato-6595
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7hotpotato-6596
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7hotpotato-6597
Yeah so I spammed one of monseray….'s teams against batterbotto. So I tested a lot of the sets against it, and status seems really OP on Pokémon that benefit from it like Gliscor. Pass the Poison, if they don't attack keep your poison because orb, then they can't get rid of it against you. V-Create is really OP, passing terrible drops onto the opponent. Multi-hit moves are pretty useful, because if you just killed something that lowered your stats and you, then you can pass them on before you kill them. Yeah, V-Create needs to be looked at. As shown in the replays, nothing can switch into 2 V-Creates due to the defense lowering. What do you all think? I'm sure TDA would like some more discussion.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7hotpotato-6594
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7hotpotato-6595
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7hotpotato-6596
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7hotpotato-6597
Yeah so I spammed one of monseray….'s teams against batterbotto. So I tested a lot of the sets against it, and status seems really OP on Pokémon that benefit from it like Gliscor. Pass the Poison, if they don't attack keep your poison because orb, then they can't get rid of it against you. V-Create is really OP, passing terrible drops onto the opponent. Multi-hit moves are pretty useful, because if you just killed something that lowered your stats and you, then you can pass them on before you kill them. Yeah, V-Create needs to be looked at. As shown in the replays, nothing can switch into 2 V-Creates due to the defense lowering. What do you all think? I'm sure TDA would like some more discussion.
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~~say it right or dont say it~~ lol
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7hotpotato-6619
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7hotpotato-6620
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7hotpotato-6621
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7hotpotato-6623
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7hotpotato-6624
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7hotpotato-6625
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7hotpotato-6626
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/dragonheaven-gen7hotpotato-6627
Can we pls give the bots more teams. The team it currently has does not represent the meta. It has no diversity of teams to chose so memorizing the team becomes easy. Maybe give it samples? Also I beat the bot every game so far when half asleep. This not the fault of the person who coded the bot, It is a bot and cant think as far as we can, the bot also makes really odd predicts sometimes which dont represent plays a human would make. This is just more of a reason to do mini-tours like 8 people join and then its like an official smogon tournament, but very low in people.
I would also like to mention that I am working on a stall team to see how stall would fair, through practice, not assumptions. So far I just have the idea. If someone who like to build it with me that would be cool. Maybe we could make the stall team a sample also.
I'm really enjoying this more than I thought I would, so good job The Dark Alakazam(TDA).
My thoughts on Victini and Serperior possibly being suspected and/or Banned.
This has been brought up a little; I feel like talking about it. I first would like to address what makes them good and how can you beat them. I will start with Victini. This pokemon has the ability to spam V-create. This lets this thing go for a V-create and if your opponent would die if staying in, they have two options(lose the Pokemon or Switch). In the event of switching, they must switch into a 180 base power stab move that does good damage then lowers YOUR defense and speed making this hard to beat. Mixed and special sets can throw your opponent off. LO lets it switch moves and still abuse its coverage. For example V-Create into Bolt Strike can kill most water types. You can U-Turn out of checks. You can also learn Brick Break which screw Heatran and Tyranatar Over. Choice Scarf and Band are insane and LO is also super insane. I've found way to beat Victini, but literally most of the time Brick Break would mean a big loss. Oh just go mega latias latios or anything like that. Well V-Create Hurts Hard. Victini Kills with V-Create Into U-turn. You can U-Turn INto T-Tar and trap them. Victini can also even beat those Pokemon you would think are counters Like the Latis by itself. Altaria-M, there goes ur mega. Also Alot of Victini sets beat Altaria on the Switchin.This pokemon always finds a way to get a kill For example you can't Just bring scarf tar in on it so you sack something then kill it. Eject button is ok Vs victini but still has flaws against it. This thing is super insane. Would don't even mind a Quick ban.Not to mention you can lower there stats then switch into a contrary pokemon and get +1spe/+1spd/+1def. IMO so far #BanVictni. Now for serperior. It has cool Evasion Boosting Stuff, but it does lack effective glaring. It,s main stab is only 8 pp. To run sub you give up the ability to hit alot. Without sub its harder to rely on missing. Pokemon like toxapex haze away stat boosts. To get evasion you need your opponent to attack you. Tornadus-T and Crobat which are viable are great mons to beat it. Even if it gets a sub up crobat can deal with it and torn can get in off a u-turn from a pokemon then kill the evasion boosted serperior. Ive also found it hard to set up. Not to mention its main counters are really good besides just beating serperior. It has many more answers than Ive said so far. It is also easy to scout the coverage vs serp. I'm so far #DoNotBanSerp.
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Alright, neat post, TDA, if you’re gonna let anyone in the council you have my vote for this dude who’s name I can’t spell.
Onto the discussiion of banning stuff, well, I’m not really sure. As I mentioned 2 posts ago, Victini is horribly hard to switch into, the closest thing to a check I can think of is Heatran which has litttle or no viability apart from checking Victini. Even then, Victini can always use trick on Stealth Rock, and slowly wear down. It can 2KO every switch with the defense passing, you have to sack to get rid of it, or else use priority / faster scarf. This thing is absolutely insane. While it’s insane, I do not think that it merits a ban. GOTTEM. V-Create is what makes it broken, so ban V-Create.
On the subject of Serperior, I’m just like, what type of loser would resort to this? Messing with evasion is the only reason I don’t become a full on Anything Goes player man. Still, a Defog ban is trash, because everyone hates hazards and this would certainly increase its usage. Still, SERP is not broken. Defog is what makes this unhealthy. With no way to avoid this combo except to ban serperior, I think don’t ban, because the foe can actually benefit if they don’t attack. On the other hand, one of the most common tactics is stat-lowering moves, and it can swithc into one of these and benefit. Therefore, my opinion is #BanSerp as it truly messes up one of the most common/ best strats in the meta. Or, ban contrary, as this is the only reason it is broken.
Give batterbotto Monsareeasy's teams
I’m really enjoying the meta TDA! Great idea!
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