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Actually Zwellous's Outrage is the most powerful in the game even counting Zekrom and Rayquaza's Outrages, and not counting Rivalry Haxorus which is too unreliable [...]
Err, why shouldn't Rivalry Haxorus count? The fact that it is unreliable (which I agree with) doesn't make it weaker or less valid at all. And it's not like Hustle is a reliable ability either. Sorry, but the strongest (not best!) Outrage award goes to Haxy, whether you like it or not.
Backing away from that, it's funny how Quagsire ignores even Durant's accuracy boost after a HC, so there's that (screwed some of them over in RU).
Err, why shouldn't Rivalry Haxorus count? The fact that it is unreliable (which I agree with) doesn't make it weaker or less valid at all. And it's not like Hustle is a reliable ability either. Sorry, but the strongest (not best!) Outrage award goes to Haxy, whether you like it or not.
Backing away from that, it's funny how Quagsire ignores even Durant's accuracy boost after a HC, so there's that (screwed some of them over in RU).
I disagree because of the fact it could be the strongest Outrage in the game or 25% weaker than a Haxorus Rivalry-less, Zweillous when it does not miss, it always has the strongest Outrage in the game.
I said Haxorus with Mold Breaker is not useless by any means because it has several advantages than Rivalry's ones.
Going again into the topic in the post, Have you considered Raticate? It has Guts too, but STAB Facade, so an statused Raticate hits stronger than a Hustle Raticate with Double-Edge/Return and Double-Edge means Raticate has to damage itself.
But Hustle leaves it with freedom to carry another item.
Corsola and Delibird are maybe the worst users of the ability even in NU. Delibird maybe would be decent if it hadn't x4 weakness to Stealth Rock(but, it has a Hustled Rapid Spin!) and its physical attacks are mediocre(Aerial Ace, Seed Bomb and Ice Punch, except Focus Punch)
Corsola has too many weaknesses and its stats suck a lot, maybe in Trick Room?
In LC is more interesting, Deino, both Nidoran, Remoraid, Rattata and (unreleased) Rufflet.
Notably Darumakka, which is a powerhouse in LC and Deino. Rufflet will be also a powerhouse when it would be released.
Remoraid and both Nidoran could be mixed, and Rufflet can learn Hone Claws but Bulk Up is generally better.
I disagree because of the fact it could be the strongest Outrage in the game or 25% weaker than a Haxorus Rivalry-less, Zweillous when it does not miss, it always has the strongest Outrage in the game.
I said Haxorus with Mold Breaker is not useless by any means because it has several advantages than Rivalry's ones.
I am not saying in anyway that Rivalry is better than Mold Breaker im just saying that if Rivalry activates then Haxorus has the strongest Outrage so stop Arguing about it because your wrong You even said it yourself it could be the strongest Outrage.
Cool it guys, this isn't a Mold Breaker vs. Rivalry thread. Hustle gives Zweilous the most powerful Outrage with zero thought or effort, whereas Rivalry is a gamble.
Cool it guys, this isn't a Mold Breaker vs. Rivalry thread. Hustle gives Zweilous the most powerful Outrage with zero thought or effort, whereas Rivalry is a gamble.
Ignoring the "strongest Outrage" debate in this thread, Hustle is an awesome ability. The fact that it lowers physical move accuracy is...nothing. I love that you now hit 50% harder, without requiring specific criteria, like Technician or Adaptability.
The occasional miss is a pain in the ass, but the improved power usually makes up for the attack connecting chance.
Going again into the topic in the post, Have you considered Raticate? It has Guts too, but STAB Facade, so an statused Raticate hits stronger than a Hustle Raticate with Double-Edge/Return and Double-Edge means Raticate has to damage itself. But Hustle leaves it with freedom to carry another item.
If only Raticate got a Ground move that isn't Dig. That might at least make it a decent Hustle abuser.
Either way, Raticate's movepool is actually pretty pathetic. It doesn't even get Earthquake, and its best option for coverage outside of STAB is Crunch. Pretty pathetic IMO.
It has flame wheel which is pretty good but come on what do you expect its a damn Raticate not like a little rat could make an Earthquake but i guess gamefreak has done weirder.
Because the fire move has low BP, the ground move is Dig (lol) and Super Fang doesn't work well with Choice Scarf. As LucaroarkZ said, his movepool is pitiful. The one I am currently using is U-Turn, Crunch, Return, and Wild Charge, although Wild Charge is really just filler. I might try Flame Wheel for steels, but it's a non-STAB 60 BP attack, which kind of sucks. Really wish it had Close Combat or at least Earthquake. Hell, even Flare Blitz would of been nice.
Like I said though, it's actually really decent. Most pokemon that don't resist normal are going to die, and ghost can eat a crunch. U-Turn does some sweet scouting. Only problem is Rocks and Steels and super bulky pokemon Crunch doesn't hit super effectively is going to laugh at Raticates face.
Just a thought, Magnezone (assuming this is OU we're talking about, Magneton if not) w/ HP Fire might be a good choice to trap and kill steels, making things easier for Raticate.
Just a thought, Magnezone (assuming this is OU we're talking about, Magneton if not) w/ HP Fire might be a good choice to trap and kill steels, making things easier for Raticate.
At risk of being ripped to shreds by the PO masses that have the majority of the posts in this thread, I think the rest of this post has more justice in this thread than the GBU Battle Videos thread.
Starmie, Togekiss, and Durant lead my team. Starmie setting up Gravity to support both Togekiss and Durant, who both are running Hustle as their abilities.
Before setting up Gravity, Mixed HustleKiss (w/ Normal Gem) OHKO's Smeagle, and after Gravity is set up, Durant gets an easy OHKO on Chandelure.
Durant gets KO'd on turn two, but Togekiss goes on to play a key role in my win versus a Minimize Blissey and a Psych Up (Blissey stat copied) Cresselia by being the only semi-physical attacker on my side of the field to do any real damage to Blissey.
Yeah, I know, at best, two people might watch this, but Hustle can be quite useful.
It would be advisable to change the example of Flamethrower in the first post instead of other, because it is not affected by Hustle and could make confusion.
Short of a quality post than anything else, but the fun thing about Hustle Togekiss is that it isn't a completely bad Pokemon by itself. In most cases, Hustle in greatly inferior to Serene Grace (for good reasons), for the adventurous, HustleKiss is worth a shot. If I were to actually use it in the current metagame (Okay I'm half kidding. I kinda want to try it out now that I think about it), this is the layout I'd use:
name: Mixed Attacker (AKA a set that relies on moves with Stone Edge accuracy...)
move 1: Work Up
move 2: Extremespeed
move 3: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
move 4: Drain Punch
item: Life Orb
ability: Hustle
nature: Naughty
evs: 252 Atk / 64 SpA / 196 Spe
Basically an OU version of the UU Mixed Attacker on-site (which I wrote). This is never making it past OU QC, so might as well post it here.
So basically, the tentative point of this Togekiss is to simply break through common offensive Pokemon that reside in OU. This set is slightly less effective against the defensive, Jellicent being a big one, but I concur.
Anyways, after an Attack boost from Work Up, Togekiss's Extremespeed has higher damage output than Adamant Lucario's +2 one (I won't deny that Lucario would be the more practical sweeper). Seeing as Tyranitar is such a common switch-in to Togekiss, Drain Punch can make short work of the common specially defensive variants (a chance to KO even at +0), and provides a means of recovery without sacrificing coverage. Finally, Togekiss's chosen Fire-type moves means it isn't immediately stopped by the likes of Jirachi, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Scizor. Air Slash is not required here due to the coverage offered by Fire + Fighting.
I know, this still screams gimmick because of Stone-Edge-accuracy moves, but once Togekiss has the chance to do its job, it can cause some destruction before going down:
+1 ExtremeSpeed vs. 4/0 Latios: 92.7% - 109.6%
+1 ExtremeSpeed vs. 252/0 Latias: 70.1% - 82.4%
+1 ExtremeSpeed vs. 4/0 Rotom-W: 90.9% - 107.1%
+1 ExtremeSpeed vs. 252/0 Rotom-W: 72% - 84.9%
+1 ExtremeSpeed vs. 4/0 Landorus: 79.9% - 94%
+1 ExtremeSpeed vs. 252/0 Ninetales: 84.3% - 99.4%
+1 ExtremeSpeed vs. 12/0 Breloom: 106.1% - 125.4%
+1 ExtremeSpeed vs. 4/0 Mamoswine: 77.3% - 90.9%
+1 ExtremeSpeed vs. 252/252+ Politoed: 52.3% - 61.7%
+1 ExtremeSpeed vs. 252/0 Politoed (Specs): 76.8% - 90.6%
+0 Drain Punch vs. 252/0 Tyranitar: 89.1% - 105%
+1 Drain Punch vs. 252/0 Tyranitar: lol
+1 Drain Punch vs. 252/252+ Blissey: 73.7% - 86.8%
+1 Drain Punch vs. 252/252+ Chansey: 54.5% - 64.5%
+1 Drain Punch vs. 248/0 Scizor: 42% - 49.6% (just showing this calc to show that Togekiss can recover a bit before going for the Fire-type attack)
+1 Fire Blast vs. 252/200+ Ferrothorn (In rain): 80.7% - 95.5%
+1 Fire Blast vs. 252/0 Jirachi: 103% - 121.3%
+1 Flamethrower vs. 252/0 Jirachi: 81.7% - 96.5%
+1 Fire Blast vs. 252/220+ Jirachi: 76.2% - 90.1%
+1 Flamethrower vs. 252/220+ Jirachi: 60.4% - 71.3%
+1 Fire Blast vs. 252/0 Celebi: 105.6% - 124.7%
+1 Flamethower vs. 252/0 Celebi: 83.8% - 99%
Adamant Rivalry Haxorus versus a same-gender Pokemon has (432x1.25)=540 attack.
..............................................Adamant Hustle Zwelious has (295x1.5)=442 attack.
/debate
(I was under the impression that Hustle was a 2x boost. Sorry.)
Also, why not include Aerial Ace on the HustleKiss set? It gets STAB and the Hustle boost without a reduction in Accuracy - the low BP is offset by the benefits.
Zweilous either has weak output due to Eviolite or low defenses due to obvious reasons, and is pretty slow without Trick Room support. I won't deny that it's strong, but Haxorus would outclass it any day, even without Rivalry. A 10-20% boost in power to give the strongest Outrage in the game is not worth the downsides IMO.
@ Kindrindra
I know hustle doesn't effect special moves. This is why the Togekiss is useful do to letting Togekiss be a mix attacker. Aura sphere is useful because it does not miss.
It would be great to see a Pokemon with a move that doesn't miss and hustle. Maybe Togekiss with Ariel Ace STAB is viable?
@ Kindrindra
I know hustle doesn't effect special moves. This is why the Togekiss is useful do to letting Togekiss be a mix attacker. Aura sphere is useful because it does not miss.
It would be great to see a Pokemon with a move that doesn't miss and hustle. Maybe Togekiss with Ariel Ace STAB is viable?
I have definitely considered that before, but Togekiss's physical attack is pretty abysmal. A special set, running Serene Grace, a splendid ability in its own right, thoroughly outclasses a mixed set in my belief.
True I admit that the special Togekiss set is much better. Especially the ThunderHaxFlinch set. Boy that was made in had heaven.
But sadly Togekiss and hone claw Durant are the best Hustle users. Outrage is okay with see joys but I don't want every move to have the Accuracy of stone edge.
