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League of Legends: Let's Talk About uhhh??
- Thread starter Thorns
- Start date
Well it was only a hypothetical scenario haha.
@supermarth yeah, the main problem with jungle GP for me is that I basically like to roll Bankplank with him. In the jungle you don't get to Parlay enough monsters D:
1. Cho'Gath because he's so versatile
2. Lux because she can mid/support
3. Insert random ADC
2. Lux because she can mid/support
3. Insert random ADC
why is every other post in this thread part of a postcount++ game
depends on the champion
heavily AA based like fiora/gangplank you're going to want hydra
heavily ability based like kha'zix/zed you're going to want BT
heavily AA based like fiora/gangplank you're going to want hydra
heavily ability based like kha'zix/zed you're going to want BT
because some retards think it's better to post useless trash for me to sift through rather than just shutting the hell up
Hydra > BT on Zed because of the extra nuke for his ult. Otherwise sure, whatever. I think Hydra is a reasonable substitute for BT in most circumstances, though. Second best for raw AD and still has lifesteal, which are the reasons anyone buys BT to begin with. Then you get an extra nuke and situationally strong auto-AoE for your trouble. If they nerf BT any more it's going to be straight-up inferior to BORK anyway, let alone Hydra. :[ You could always double up on 'em too and have lifesteal++. Of course, only on melee champs...
The biggest downer is the price. I really think they could stand to make it cheaper or do something with the health regen carried over from Tiamat. Llike they removed the health regen going Spirit Stone -> Wraith Spirit because the Spell Vamp is supposed to more than make it up, they could do the same thing with Hydra and decrease the cost or increase the lifesteal. But 3500 is a steep price when you have comparable items at 2900 and 3000.
Because I'd rather discuss personal experiences and opinions in this thread rather than shit like "should I get hydra or bloodthirster on my fiora???" which are things you can already just Google and find, essentially, the right mathematically-proven answers to.
In other news: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hbuaq7Q_bYo
idk i disagree
BT has been super-popular on melee casters in tournament play like kha'zix and zed. it gives 30 more AD when fully stacked and is 500 gold cheaper, while the BF sword itself is a HUGE jump in early/mid-game power at only 1550 gold (tiamat is 2300 and isn't very impressive for its price). while hydra has more base attack damage, I personally find the potential stats, lower cost, and build path on BT to be much stronger. Melee casters don't autoattack a great deal anyway compared to champions like Fiora/GP, so I'll be sticking with BT.
I agree with getting BT on Kha'Zix, but MrE has a point there with the Crescent active and Death Mark. I'm not entirely convinced it's enough damage for it to be worth it, though. How big is Crescent's range, is it akin to Pantheon's old Grand Skyfall where it's almost impossible to get 100% damage on it?
Well Zed's ult does put you on top of the target, so if you faceroll hard enough immediately after ulting you should get the full damage out of it.
BT has 25 more AD (not 30) than Hydra, 31.25 on Zed with maxed W. Best case scenario for Zed, BT adds 143.75 damage in the duration of an ult (2.0 shurikens, 1.6 two slashes, 1.0 ult itself) plus 37.5 more for each autoattack. Hydra gives you a 203.55 damage nuke, with no additional AD (including runes and masteries), that scales with other AD. Hydra clearly outbursts BT.
The biggest appeal of BT is the cost difference. The lifesteal makes it a bit stronger in extended lategame fights too but BT certainly doesn't have a better build path. It's not exactly easy to save up 1550 for a BFS, Hydra builds piecemeal except for the Pickaxe which barely costs half as much. And the less you autoattack, the better Hydra compares as the Crescent active makes up a proportionally larger amount of your damage. :P CDR also favors BT, as you cast more spells and apply the extra AD to more ratios over time, however CDR is also a bad stat on Zed because his skill usage is incredibly constrained by Energy. Hydra is worth the cost, although honestly if the game is long enough I like both and it's better to get BT early to build its stacks. ;[
Kha'zix? Yeah, no major reason to get Hydra on him. He already clears creeps with extreme ease. BT gives more AD for his poke. Taste Their Fear has a ginormous AD ratio and very short cooldown, CDR is a great stat on him, evolved Leap resets on kill/assist. Fiora? Unique interaction on her ult makes Hydra viable but I wouldn't call it a gimme either way. She definitely appreciates the waveclear, though.
You can't discuss your personal experiences and opinion in this thread on stuff that actually happened to you? Have you tried Hydra before? On which champions, against which champions? Did you like it? What's been going on in your League of Legends career lately? Etc. You don't have to make up a "wacky scenario that will never happen, make a list most people won't read anyway" game to goad people into posting and it just shits up the thread with pointless drivel. There's generally not much discussion surrounding such things. I mean hey whatever, not like I own the thread but since someone else brought it into question I was just giving my opinion on the matter. I don't like them, that's why I don't participate.
The BT-Hydra stuff I typed above? Natural discussion, actually relevant to playing the game, pretty damn interesting if you ask me. There's a lot more places just to take that topic alone.
BT has 25 more AD (not 30) than Hydra, 31.25 on Zed with maxed W. Best case scenario for Zed, BT adds 143.75 damage in the duration of an ult (2.0 shurikens, 1.6 two slashes, 1.0 ult itself) plus 37.5 more for each autoattack. Hydra gives you a 203.55 damage nuke, with no additional AD (including runes and masteries), that scales with other AD. Hydra clearly outbursts BT.
The biggest appeal of BT is the cost difference. The lifesteal makes it a bit stronger in extended lategame fights too but BT certainly doesn't have a better build path. It's not exactly easy to save up 1550 for a BFS, Hydra builds piecemeal except for the Pickaxe which barely costs half as much. And the less you autoattack, the better Hydra compares as the Crescent active makes up a proportionally larger amount of your damage. :P CDR also favors BT, as you cast more spells and apply the extra AD to more ratios over time, however CDR is also a bad stat on Zed because his skill usage is incredibly constrained by Energy. Hydra is worth the cost, although honestly if the game is long enough I like both and it's better to get BT early to build its stacks. ;[
Kha'zix? Yeah, no major reason to get Hydra on him. He already clears creeps with extreme ease. BT gives more AD for his poke. Taste Their Fear has a ginormous AD ratio and very short cooldown, CDR is a great stat on him, evolved Leap resets on kill/assist. Fiora? Unique interaction on her ult makes Hydra viable but I wouldn't call it a gimme either way. She definitely appreciates the waveclear, though.
What is the mathematically correct answer to Hydra vs. BT then? You can't do a cut-and-dried DPS calculation to compare the two like you might for AD carry itemization. Players don't just stand there and let melee champions wail on them, plus there's such a wide range of champs with very low to very high AD ratios on their spells that a simplified test case would be pointless anyway.
You can't discuss your personal experiences and opinion in this thread on stuff that actually happened to you? Have you tried Hydra before? On which champions, against which champions? Did you like it? What's been going on in your League of Legends career lately? Etc. You don't have to make up a "wacky scenario that will never happen, make a list most people won't read anyway" game to goad people into posting and it just shits up the thread with pointless drivel. There's generally not much discussion surrounding such things. I mean hey whatever, not like I own the thread but since someone else brought it into question I was just giving my opinion on the matter. I don't like them, that's why I don't participate.
The BT-Hydra stuff I typed above? Natural discussion, actually relevant to playing the game, pretty damn interesting if you ask me. There's a lot more places just to take that topic alone.
hydra on fiora is incredibly sexy
one of the most satisfying feelings in the game is blade waltzing into an enemy team and blowing up everyone because of your massive splash damage
botrk is good if you want a lot of single-target damage but hydra will turn you into a monster if you have any kind of aoe cc on your team
mr. e: i'm speaking a lot more from watching tournament games as experience, but i also can't find a noticeable flaw in your logic so perhaps pros aren't testing hydra as much as they should
i suspect that part of the reasoning is that zed's aoe clear is already excellent and the splash effect from hydra doesn't start to become cost-efficient until you start hitting those major teamfights, at which point gold is better spent on last whisper or guardian angel
but hydra does seem like it has some merit
one of the most satisfying feelings in the game is blade waltzing into an enemy team and blowing up everyone because of your massive splash damage
botrk is good if you want a lot of single-target damage but hydra will turn you into a monster if you have any kind of aoe cc on your team
mr. e: i'm speaking a lot more from watching tournament games as experience, but i also can't find a noticeable flaw in your logic so perhaps pros aren't testing hydra as much as they should
i suspect that part of the reasoning is that zed's aoe clear is already excellent and the splash effect from hydra doesn't start to become cost-efficient until you start hitting those major teamfights, at which point gold is better spent on last whisper or guardian angel
but hydra does seem like it has some merit
that's a rather unfair generalization to make
and to be fair when you've got IE/BT/PD already you're dealing an enormous amount of physical damage to the point where last whisper is still a cost-efficient buy against an armor-heavy team despite all your true damage
and to be fair when you've got IE/BT/PD already you're dealing an enormous amount of physical damage to the point where last whisper is still a cost-efficient buy against an armor-heavy team despite all your true damage
The math has been done a multitude of times, a second PD on Vayne (and probably PD/Shiv) will literally 100% of the time out-do LW. Against low-armor targets, obviously there's little defense to pierce and PD will beat LW in physical damage alone. As the target's armor rises, Silver Bolts becomes a progressively larger percentage of Vayne's damage and keeps PD in the lead, despite adding less physical damage after a point.
LORDSESSHOUMARU (aka SUPER GAYBOY aka alex) was arguing with me earlier too when I said Sunfire Cape rush was dumb on Katarina. He justified it because hurr some pros are doing it, that means it's right. (Literally. I told him that just because pros do it doesn't make it right and he was like YEAH IT DOES ARE YOU PRO? NOPE. THEY'RE RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG.) Highly annoying attitude but this question doesn't have a definitive correct answer at least.
However, Sunfire Cape just isn't that good an item in the first place. It also doesn't make much sense to me to stick it on an assassin with a reset, as you snowball less hard if you get one. There are better items for pure tankiness (Warmog's, Randuin's) or hybrid offense/defense (Zhonya's, Rylai's) if you want survivability. She gets points for building MPen to make the aura more impactful but Katarina isn't exactly a champion to just stand in the middle of a team to keep it on multiple enemies, no? It just seems like a bad idea to me.
LORDSESSHOUMARU (aka SUPER GAYBOY aka alex) was arguing with me earlier too when I said Sunfire Cape rush was dumb on Katarina. He justified it because hurr some pros are doing it, that means it's right. (Literally. I told him that just because pros do it doesn't make it right and he was like YEAH IT DOES ARE YOU PRO? NOPE. THEY'RE RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG.) Highly annoying attitude but this question doesn't have a definitive correct answer at least.
However, Sunfire Cape just isn't that good an item in the first place. It also doesn't make much sense to me to stick it on an assassin with a reset, as you snowball less hard if you get one. There are better items for pure tankiness (Warmog's, Randuin's) or hybrid offense/defense (Zhonya's, Rylai's) if you want survivability. She gets points for building MPen to make the aura more impactful but Katarina isn't exactly a champion to just stand in the middle of a team to keep it on multiple enemies, no? It just seems like a bad idea to me.
I know I'm a little late to the BT vs. Hydra comparison, but yesterday I rushed Wriggles on Zed (I was jungling and it was my first time playing him), and it seemed to do pretty well. I finished something like 10/11/3, but we still got dunked by LeBron Darius and Chris Yi. Finished with Wriggles, Merc treads, black cleaver, last whisper, and I was working on a Frozen Mallet.
Today I'm probably going to try selling machete after my first clear, getting Vamp Scepter, and going straight into Black Cleaver/Last Whisper/Hydra.
On the pros vs everyone else topic: The pros don't use enough champions or strategies for them to really be a reliable source of information. If you're trying to learn, say, Kennen, there's no pro to watch! (although there is Ego Ignaxio but iirc his house burned down and he doesn't play much league anymore)
So yeah, feel free to copy pro players, but just be intelligent about it. Sure, Voyboy might be doing solo top Sunfire Katarina (first time I saw anyone do it), but that doesn't mean that it's a great idea in solo queue. High elos, even in solo queue, are much more coordinated then lower elos, so he could afford to go tanky Kat because he knew that his team would build a little more damage, whereas in the 1300s (where I am right now), you'd build tankier expecting your team to pick up the slack and then see your solo top Garen with two Warmogs and a Frozen Mallet. (true story btw)
Today I'm probably going to try selling machete after my first clear, getting Vamp Scepter, and going straight into Black Cleaver/Last Whisper/Hydra.
On the pros vs everyone else topic: The pros don't use enough champions or strategies for them to really be a reliable source of information. If you're trying to learn, say, Kennen, there's no pro to watch! (although there is Ego Ignaxio but iirc his house burned down and he doesn't play much league anymore)
So yeah, feel free to copy pro players, but just be intelligent about it. Sure, Voyboy might be doing solo top Sunfire Katarina (first time I saw anyone do it), but that doesn't mean that it's a great idea in solo queue. High elos, even in solo queue, are much more coordinated then lower elos, so he could afford to go tanky Kat because he knew that his team would build a little more damage, whereas in the 1300s (where I am right now), you'd build tankier expecting your team to pick up the slack and then see your solo top Garen with two Warmogs and a Frozen Mallet. (true story btw)
To be fair, where you are, you might've found more success going a bread and butter AP build with tanky AP items and trying to snowball, which is what Katarina does best, and let Garen (although that's an atrocious and inexcusable build, wtf) build for his role properly too. Coordination isn't just from their end, and if you're going to do weird builds, you should probably tell people what you're planning so that they can plan ahead appropriately, haha. I'm still not sure anything could save you from a Garen who built two Warmogs and a Frozen Mallet, though.