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League of Legends: Let's Talk About uhhh??

If by "laner" you mean by herself, then well duuuuh. If by "laner" you mean with a partner in bot, then go uninstall the game. Doesn't scale into late game? When did tanks ever care about scaling? All scaling means to a tank is that the game goes long enough that they become unkillable, and if a teamfight lasts less than 6 seconds then Leona reaches that mark very fast.

Seriously masterful, where do you get your bad info?
 
If by "laner" you mean by herself, then well duuuuh. If by "laner" you mean with a partner in bot, then go uninstall the game. Doesn't scale into late game? When did tanks ever care about scaling? All scaling means to a tank is that the game goes long enough that they become unkillable, and if a teamfight lasts less than 6 seconds then Leona reaches that mark very fast.

Seriously masterful, where do you get your bad info?
It's true that she was not at the level of other tanks before he buff, look at elementz tier list if you want a more expert opinion I guess. Being unkillable is nice and all, but not incredily important when you do shit for damage and the other team can ignore you. I honestly don't see why you're getting offended by this, it is far more of a compliment to you that you were able to do well with Leona even when she may have been slightly UP. I'm not hating on her, everyone loves a female tank, but it's just a fact of the game that she was definitely overshadowed by other champs pre-buff, that's no more of a insult than saying Yorick was initially UP

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She was low on Elementz tier list for the same reasons that I stated, true tanks died. When you get to level 30 and beyond, you'll eventually start thinking for yourself, theorymoning, and gain some actual context to the things you hear from pro players (which you don't have at the moment). You definitely can't just take everything you read on the LoL boards at face value.
 
So...I'm Rayquaza2233's friend from the other forum he may/may not mention frequently here. I mainly just lurk on Smogon. I don't really play Pokemon a lot anymore X_X.

Pleased to meet you all. My ign is ClawofBeta.
 
Leona's best defense is also her best offense. I don't think there's any ability in the game that should be leveled first as obviously as her W. In lane, it means that she can be basically untouchable while also dealing very good damage.

Alistar should be used over her if you favor a more defensive lane, because he's still a support character. Leona on the other hand just wrecks offensively with any sort of help. I don't see how her gap closer is worse than Alistars unless Alistar is ganking. A skillshot that passes over minions is a rare boon! All the people who have to hide behind minions when I play Blitz, now they just plain have to keep away from me at all times.

As for runes and items, I go Magic Pen marks, Armor seals, MR Glyphs, and Health quints. Items are standard tanking, Sunfire, Force of Nature, usually don't end up getting more than this per game but the W still brings my defensive stats up to 200 in team fights. I do start with Philo, Hog, Merc Treads. But I get the health regen component first instead of a faerie charm as it is really easy to manage her mana.

As far as the gap closers go, they have similar range (700 for Leona, 650 for Alistar), but Alistar has the advantage of his not being a skillshot at all and thus nearly impossible to screw up(though as an expert at smartcasting Dazzle on minions when I play Taric I guess I can't say that 100%...). I think assuming perfect play for anyone is a bad idea so that's certainly an edge for Alistar, though Leona's range advantage matters sometimes and as far as skillshots go her's is pretty amazing with the minion dodging quality). The main thing that makes it hard for me to imagine many situations where I'd pick Leona over Alistar with both available are the other effects on the abilities, though: Headbutt being able work as a second stun if the opponent is close to a wall in addition to a gap closer, as well as and the incredible utility of knocking opponents into your carry's range/away from their turret/into your turret gives it a pretty big advantage over vs Zenith Blade being simply a gap closer, and Headbutt having the potential to stun multiple targets in one use makes me prefer Alistar version's of those two abilities pretty significantly, both for being a bully in lane and for teamfighting(particularly for initiation). Alistar can kind of imitate the way Leona does things with Headbutt->Pulverize, but Leona lacks a lot of what he can do with the impact on multiple targets and the knockbacks. Some of Alistar's flash combos are kind of a noteworthy separator too, since he gains a lot of effective range and initiation ability.

Alistar's E giving his laning perhaps the last strong sustain in the game is a pretty big kicker comparing the two as well(and it's a cheap Trample activation all game), giving him the flexibility of being able to play more passively in lane for a while if things take a bad turn, which is something Leona has no answer to. She instead has her W which makes her more reliably tanky than the ult-reliant Alistar and eventually lets her pass him in damage, since while Alistar's base damages are higher Eclipse gains more per level than Pulverize. From an damage perspective I still like Alistar better, since Leona doesn't start pulling away until the damage either of them do is starting to get bad regardless in the mid-game. Alistar Headbutt+Pulverizing people the first 3 or 4 levels is an awful lot of damage with the added benefit of them locked in place the entire time to increase the time on target of Alistar and his carry, and with the physical damage Reds Alistar can afford to use to boost his early game helping out he can pressure a squishy awfully hard on his own(since the AP scaling nerfs and the relatively low base damages on his abilities have made mpen kind of pointless on Alistar now, and as you suggested Mpen is more necessary on Leona preventing her from keeping pace there). I like Alistar's early game damage better even once Eclipse gets a few levels to bridge the gap just because Alistar is so much better at locking a target in place and preventing incoming damage to his carry or himself with the potential double stun, but it's noteworthy that Leona is better at shrugging of damage if you don't have a wall to Headbutt people into and that she provides more damage herself once she hits level 5 and jumps ahead again at 6 with her Ult being more offensive and adding more control.

Leona is obviously more reliably tanky as the game wears on than Alistar, but assuming your team is still running the usual strategy bottom where it is your lane partner who needs all the farm to avoid playing the game as two half characters instead of one good one, it's tough for either Leona or Alistar to end up getting anywhere near unkillable(though both can mostly do it temporarily with Eclipse and Unbreakable Will, and Eclipse has the advantage of always been up when you need it in exchange for a shorter duration), which mitigates some of the late game advantage Leona would otherwise have over Alistar, though I haven't gotten there as Leona myself enough to compare accurately. It's kind of surprising how similar they are as far as abilities fulfilling roles(Zenith Blade vs Headbutt, Shield of Daybreak vs Trample, Eclipse vs Unbreakable Will, hell, even Sunlight vs. Trample), but without farm to break Leona away late game I think Alistar's CC and lane sustain makes him a better pick in bottom all game if you aren't going to get a significant amount of farm(and I'm somewhat skeptical of team comps where you are). I haven't mentioned Leona's ult enough to this point in the post, but it is obviously noteworthy as the game wears on as well, since the one ability that isn't similar between the two of them becomes a big win for Leona as Triumphant Roar becomes pretty weak late in the game and Leona's ult provides some supplemental damage and CC.

I don't mean this suddenly kinda long post as a rip on Leona at all, because with as good as Alistar is right now being nearly as good as he is still easily puts Leona as one of the best fifth wheel options, I think -- she's probably better than Taric at his job, selecting Leona over Janna and Sona would depend more on your team needs than their relative power, and Soraka requires some kind of bizarre laning combinations to be worth it herself as a support atm(I want to play around with AP carry+Support Soraka bot but haven't had the chance to work the team comp yet), even if I'm still a stubborn Alistar main comparing the two of them, I guess. Leona's not a true support the way people are seeing them right now, since when they see support they think "sustain," but with Riot trying to stomp that out bottom lane will probably shift more toward champs than can still be productive with limited farm, since like Kinneas posted a few posts ago, there's still five heroes for four effective lanes and getting two half heroes out of bot is almost never a good idea. I think that's what Riot wants anyway, since playing like Alistar and Leona do makes support more "interactive" or whatever, and if things shift that way Leona is due for some more popularity imo.





As far as the advice, I'll definitely start with Regrowth Pendant + Pot next time I play with her. I hate the flexibility you lose starting with no wards bottom, but I don't think there's really a viable alternative with Leona since Faerie Charm does nothing but make a down payment on Philos and the crystal for HOG is too expensive. I'm a whore for Avarice quints and will probably keep trying to sneak at least a couple of those over the health quints, though... I just have a hard time saying no to them on characters where I want/need to be doing a lot of warding or picking up Oracles or whatever and know I won't be seeing a lot of farm, since it leaves me that extra gold to buy an item later in the game that will help my tankiness a lot more than the health quints would past the first few levels of the game where they really shine.
 
I fail to see how headbutt is nearly impossible to screw up, when I see every single free week Alistar headbutt opponents either into safety when they are near death or into me when I am. Headbutt requires either being behind the opponent (making him a good ganker, but as a laner rendering any gap closing advantage moot), for the opponent to be near a wall (so don't do it when laning against Alistar), or for you to use two abilities at once (rendering the double CC advantage moot). Now Leona's Zenith Blade could be even more brainless if you just had to click on someone, but for passing minions it is pretty damn brainless enough. Being undefeated with Blitzcrank in 3s got me pretty damn good at landing skillshots, but there's always odd moments when minions get in the way (like when you stand in profile with them -_-).

On the flipside of Alistar's sustain is Leona's sunlight. It has the same damage potential as Lux's passive, but can be activated by any source of damage from an ally. It tips early fights in your favor almost as if you had Baron.

Finally, yes, you didn't mention the Ultimate and that's important because this is where Leona becomes less like Alistar and more like Amumu. Leona basically folds Unbreakable Will into a damage ability, which allows her to have a targeted radius stun as an ult. I shouldn't have to say the impact this has in teamfights, but there's also this to consider. When my Ult is up and a teammate is nearby, I am guaranteed a kill. Zenith Blade immobilizes, Shield of Daybreak stuns, then I lead into a Solar Flare and if my partner is activating my Sunlight then bam. I have gone few games as Leona where I didn't land a level 6 assist.
 
I should probably have touched on the Ultimate more, because I think that's probably where I would actually pick her over Alistar; I was playing Leona with Amumu and Brand a moment ago for instance and that's definitely a situation where Leona fits the comp better than Alistar does. The duration is short enough that I'm still not enthusiastic about it to the point I'd pick her because of it in most teams, but if you have some other AoE CC or significant AoE damage and a way to get the other team clumped for long enough to lay into them it's pretty devastating. The CC duration is not significantly longer than Pulverize in spite of being an Ultimate, but obviously you have it on top of Shield of Daybreak for longer CC (and ideally to keep people in your allies' CC for far longer than Alistar could).

I'm not sure free week Alistar first timers are super relevant to discussing the two characters but it's probably worth noting in regards to Sunlight that it takes a few levels for it to get passed Trample: Trample is 10-23/second for 3 seconds(though when chaining CC Alistar can't get a full 9 seconds of it in rotation obviously, and similarly if you're Zenith Blading into Shield Leona is likely to waste a Sunlight proc) and Sunlight is 20 for level 1-2, 35 for 3-4, and 50 for 5-6. Assuming you use all the procs for Leona it's 40(since you only have 2 abilities)/105/150 damage before MR for her. Alistar's is a little harder to compare because he needs to stay on target to get full duration and there is a big damage range, but even assuming you're only on target for about 5 seconds, which I think is a bit low, it's 50-115 damage before MR at all levels for Alistar, which is an edge for him until he falls behind forever at 5, though I'd say it's closer a little farther than that since the time on target estimate is low and it requires some pretty precise timing if you're going to combo with Leona not to waste the first Sunlight.
 
She was low on Elementz tier list for the same reasons that I stated, true tanks died. When you get to level 30 and beyond, you'll eventually start thinking for yourself, theorymoning, and gain some actual context to the things you hear from pro players (which you don't have at the moment). You definitely can't just take everything you read on the LoL boards at face value.
I have played with and against almost all the champions I talk about, including Leona. A True Tank role does not serve a real purpose, outside of initiation, and even then you want some dps to go along with that. Junglers, brusiers, and tanky dps champs have more usefulness and utility than a pure tank, leaving many players wondering why they should bother choosing Leona over one of her male counterparts with greater utility
 
2 things "Pure Tanks" need... good initiation and sustained damage/support. Alistar has his heal, Singed with his poison, and Mumu with Tantrum (or w/e). Those 2 traits is what makes them an acceptable choice over bruisers.
 
2 things "Pure Tanks" need... good initiation and sustained damage/support. Alistar has his heal, Singed with his poison, and Mumu with Tantrum (or w/e). Those 2 traits is what makes them an acceptable choice over bruisers.
Alistar is also kind of more of a support than a pure tank, and Amumu is definitely a jungler, which is significantly different than a pure tank
 
I have played with and against almost all the champions I talk about, including Leona.

At level 12! At level 12! What part of this is lost on you? You are only paired against people of similar ability, even when you team up with level 30 players (I'd know, I've been training people in the 10-20 area for the past few months).

"A true tank has no purpose beyond initiation", that's pretty important. That's what makes Amumu one of the highest tier characters even according to the very opinionated Elementz (seriously, that's not how you make a tier list. I'd love it if Riot was able to actually compile champion victory records in ranked games and that would be a tier list).

Here's some more history for you. It may teach you a little bit about how perspective informs valid opinions a lot more than just reading the dogshit in the character feedback forum. Ranged + Support bot became super popular just before dreamhack, and why the hell not? It was always a ranged ADs goal to free farm as long as possible before having to blue pill, and this combination gave them perfect defense and sustain. Frankly, I'm surprised it wasn't discovered sooner. This made tanks immediately hard to place on a team, as only really Malphite can solo lane (and not amazingly) but double AP was the favored solo lane at the time. So the Europeans experimented with putting tanks in the jungle, leading to less than stellar junglers like Alistar and Jarvan IV, but both of which were better than tanks like Rammus or Shen. Out of the ashes rose king Amumu, who was a true tank AND a good jungler.

Now they want to kill Ranged + Support bots, and I couldn't be more happy. You're level 12, so you might not have even been playing pre-dreamhack (you certainly weren't playing ranked), but there was a time when the top bans were Rammus, Shen, and Amumu. This changed immediately when bot did. Now the metagame is changing again. We might not even see a serious metagame shift until the next tournament, but the patch went off as Riot intended it will happen.

Alistar is also kind of more of a support than a pure tank, and Amumu is definitely a jungler, which is significantly different than a pure tank

Fiddlesticks is definitely a jungler, which is significantly different than a caster.

Seriously, what is wrong with you?
 
Fiddlesticks is definitely a jungler, which is significantly different than a caster.

Seriously, what is wrong with you?
All junglers are somewhat tanky, not all somewhat tanky champs are junglers, meaning that since Amumu is a prominent jungler, he is a subset of tank, and not a "pure" tank. Please curb the animosity, it is entirely unnecessary.
 
Fiddlesticks is not "somewhat tanky". Amumu is a pure tank as defined by the designers. Jungler isn't a role, it's a lane. If you want to curb my animosity, stop saying things that are woefully incorrect. I now know twice as much I thought I did at Level 12, and at level 12 I knew half as much as I thought I did. In fact, I routinely see people in between Level 27-29 who get Warmog's without Atma "for the tankiness", or who rush Guardians on tanks. You'd think in the massive amount of time it takes to get to level 30 people would master the game, but it's even harder than that and I've got a long way to go still.


Anyway Synre, I'm not saying that Leona is better than Alistar. Alistar is one of the best picks right now. But I do think that when the meta shifts Leona is gonna edge out Shen and will hold her own against Rammus. Should a team pick Amumu instead if they can? Yeah, I'm just saying Leona won't be ignored for long, which is more than I can say for Skarner sadly.
 
Fiddlesticks is not "somewhat tanky". Amumu is a pure tank as defined by the designers. Jungler isn't a role, it's a lane. If you want to curb my animosity, stop saying things that are woefully incorrect. I now know twice as much I thought I did at Level 12, and at level 12 I knew half as much as I thought I did. In fact, I routinely see people in between Level 27-29 who get Warmog's without Atma "for the tankiness", or who rush Guardians on tanks. You'd think in the massive amount of time it takes to get to level 30 people would master the game, but it's even harder than that and I've got a long way to go still.
Level has very little to do with skill. I've played godawful level 30s, and great level 10s. Also, saying jungler is not a role is just wrong. Any champ can lane (technically, at least), but only a few can "jungle", as the term is commonly used (starting at level 1 and being able to run through all the camps early in the game). The "Tank" label is also applied to Taric and Alistar, who are both supports. Unless the term you call "pure tank" applies to Supports as well, which would make it hardly accurate considering your earlier comments, the "Tank" label does not make a champ solely a tank. Stop using my level to mean I know nothing, please actually consider what I'm saying objectively, and explain to me how it is not in the slightest bit accurate.
 
Stop using my level to mean I know nothing, please actually consider what I'm saying objectively, and explain to me how it is not in the slightest bit accurate.

I have to everything you have said, and then you just come back with more things that are wrong. Jungler is not a role. It doesn't affect teamfights in any way that you jungled, and in fact the people who continue jungling into teamfighting phase are just awful.

All labels Riot gives are awful, but when they made Leona they defined "pure tank" and it fits the general definition of tank in the community. Taric is more of an offtank, while Alistar is definitely a pure tank but he also can support. See when you start thinking for yourself, you realize many champions don't fit into one role but multiples.
 
I resent that LN I laned with Rammus quite a bit when I was level 12 and it worked perfectly

vonFiedler: Yeah, I'm not sure what point I was even trying to make at the end there other than enjoying the continued comparison, I guess. I like the analyzing even if it isn't really leading anywhere, was fun discussing that some.

masterful said:
brusiers, and tanky dps champs

So could you tell me what a bruiser is...?


EDIT: ok I cant resist

I've really been trying not to rip on masterful but I feel like I should back vonFiedler up here because this is completely ridiculous: being in the Jungle doesn't make you inherently anything other than someone laning in the Jungle. All it means for a champion is that there are more potential team comps they'll fit on because they have more lane flexibility in the same way some other heroes like Ashe sort of have flexibility by working decently both in a solo lane and bot. It is common to put tanky characters in the jungle because other than the whole bruiser vs bruiser top thing there aren't many places to put tanky champions the way the metagame has been recently, so it is convenient to place the jungle-friendly tanks there in order to have them on the team and getting some farm, but those two qualities are mutually exclusive. A "pure" tank would simply mean it's a character meant to do things like absorb damage and initiate and CC and not deal damage the way bruisers can in addition to being somewhat tanky.

Also, as far as Elementz' list goes and other tier lists in general: I think in general it does a good job of what it does. He claims it is a subjective measure of viability and ease of placement in team comps in the highest level of organized, competitive play in the case of the Draft list and the best for carrying teams of morons when queueing alone in the case of the Solo Queue list. At least in my experience playing/watching solo queue and watching high levels games in tournaments, it is has been a fairly effective barometer of what it is supposed to measure in the relatively short time I've been playing this game. I think that it is easy to misuse the data in this tier list in the same way usage stats in Pokemon are often misused in that being more used or "viable" than something else doesn't make it inherently better and that not every situation you come across is what the tier lists are designed to measure... it kind of becomes a misuse of data when you use the list like a bible for everything LoL. Elementz' list is a good place to start when evaluating and he's a strong, well-informed player but he's subject to the way he and his team looks at the game and the tiers aren't intended to be inclusive of all situations and they shouldn't be approached as though they are, especially since most of us aren't playing at the level he is and the metagame at lower levels is very different.
 
The one question I have for vonFiedler/others is (and I actually am level 30 and play ranked ocassionally, I am just speaking from a point of view of someone who plays this game semi-competitively but has played many other games competitively): what causes sudden metagame shifts in LoL? Was there a patch after Dreamhack that caused things to change dramatically, or were even the pro players so ignorant pre-Dreamhack that they did not realize that the current setup most teams run is the best? Or is it that everyone that plays LoL competitively is an uncreative fuck and just copies whatever strategy was most successful at the last tournament (I highly doubt this is accurate)?
 
i like that based on masterful's definitions, Amumu loses all "pure tank status" by going into the jungle, but if he lanes he is a pure tank again.
@synre i also laned rammus its not that bad, but after facing a few its very easy to harass them when DBC is down early levels.

ALSO ITC masterful does not know that there is hidden/normals elo, so (especially when you solo queue) you get matched up with people of similar skill. but whatever

Has anyone else completely ignored doran's items in builds that arent Ranged AD? i hate not laning with at least 1-2 pots to start so i usually go with meki/blue crystal/cloth + pots

EDIT: also i know having a jungler is supposed to be a benefit, but god damn i hate having a jungler and not facing one. unless you have a really good tanky dude, you almost always lose top . unless our jungler is a good fiddlesticks
 
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