Jax will still be able to 1v5 like a boss past 40 minutes....
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League of Legends: Let's Talk About uhhh??
- Thread starter Thorns
- Start date
Actually he won't, because he will be fucked all game by his lane opponent and Gunblade is much worse now
On a different note, there may be the slightest chance
Still continuing that 8 game streak.
I don't think Sion needed to be touched at all. He's a solo queue stomper for sure, but he can only be described as "viable" in competitive play.
After thinking about it for a while, I really don't think the changes to Offense are all that amazing for AP carries. Yes, it's now viable to spec Offense but I'm not quite convinced that it's the sure way to go for every AP champion out there. An extra 5% AP from Archmage is only going to be an extra ~16 AP by a typical late-game (Deathcap + two other major AP items + scaling AP glyphs), which is worse than even Blast in the previous tier. Not including the upper-tier stuff that 9/0/21 can pick up too, you're only getting about 35 AP for your troubles which I actually kinda think is pretty meh. :/ And Executioner is significantly worse than the current Havoc.
Back in Utility, Transmutation (1/2/3% Spell Vamp) gives a better return-on-investment than new Havoc (+0.5/1.0/1.5% damage). Awareness is no longer available to x/x/9 dabblers and is kind of a big deal for all the AP champs that gain instagib potential for hitting Lv6 first in lane. Utility's 21-pointer wasn't touched where the 21-pointer in Offense was significantly nerfed and Greed/Wealth could be a big deal considering it lets you start Doran's + Potion (which was specifically nerfed in the past). Even the typical nine in Offense is less appealing with the first-tier AP talent neutered (4 AP compared to 10.8 at Lv18) and the MPen is only 10% instead of 15% now. I think it's perfectly justifiable to do something like 4/0/26 or 0/9/21 in these new mastery trees.
Either way, the Defense tree is mad overpowered and I love it. 8) The loss of Nimbleness is sad but the new Durability + Vet's Scars are actually viable, unlike the current Vet's Scars which you just have to put up with if you want the 21-pointer because the entire middle tiers of current Defense suck massive donkey dick. Juggernaut is roughly equivalent to current Tenacity -- 3% health is similar to 3% damage reduction (marginally worse) and losing 1% for the 10% CC reduction is a fair trade -- and with Indomitable + Honor Guard you get more total DR from the tree as a whole. That's not including the new movespeed and CDR talents that were added, and I think Siege Commander will be really good if you can figure out how to spare a point for it. With Arcane Knowledge nerfed and Greed no longer a one-point wonder, tanks might prefer to go 22 in Defense instead of 21 so they can pick it up.
Utility is so tough to gauge now. Doran's + Potion start is insane but you have to throw away a lot of mastery points to get it and I think swapping the positions of Swiftness and Awareness hurts the appeal of going deep into the tree, since Swiftness is probably the better mastery. With Offense likely to draw away a large majority of the AP carries that went Utility in the past, it's tough to say if anyone outside of pure support will still continue to go full Utility. Greed was nerfed on a per-point basis but supports will love getting to squeeze an extra GP10 out of it and I think Scout is a really cool one-point wonder for them too.
Also considering the on-kill/assist talents, using lolstatistics to check my entire game history I personally average ~12 kills/assists per game. That equates to 96 extra gold per game per point in Mercenary or 480 XP through Sage. That means Mercenary is... roughly equivalent to one point in the nerfed Greed mastery in a typical 30-minute game. Mediocre at best, junk considering how far down the tree it is and what it's directly competing with (Honor Guard). And not that Sage isn't the worst mastery ever that nobody should ever get anyway, but for perspective here's the worth of 480 XP: Lv1 to halfway through Lv2, roughly Lv3 to Lv4, one-third through Lv12, one-fourth through Lv16.
As far as other changes are concerned, Sion nerf is lame because it doesn't do much to address his ridiculous and unstoppable early/mid-game burst, let alone farm. Big whoop you're losing ten damage per stun/shield pop combo with three Doran's Rings. -_- And while both having 1.0 ratios is kinda silly to begin with, it's not like he was a big deal if late game hits without him getting too fed on champion kills. A base damage nerf would be much more prudent, especially the Shield considering it's the strongest base + level scaling shield in the game as it is... and has the best AP ratio and doubles as a highly-damaging attack. And not that Dominion should be the focus of balance changes but this incidentally does nothing to address AD Sion being insanely broken there either.
"we tend to be conversative with changes for tournament patches"
*completely alter masteries, re-balance the entire ranged AD cast, and add a new champion*
And yeah srsly I was theorycrafting Singed's new mastery trees last night too. 8) (I really need to get back to playing him, SO FUN!) I now get more [constant] movespeed and more damage reduction? I can now pick up the MPen talent while retaining my existing movespeed and not losing Imp Ghost? :happybrain::happybrain::happybrain: I actually kinda wonder if full Utility wouldn't be viable for him now. The new Preseverance at 3%/point is really good, but forces full Utility for how deep in the tree it is, and the Spell Vamp from Transmutation is sorta roundabout damage reduction (or a ton more regen) if you look at it from a survivability standpoint. Ultimately, I'm pretty sure I want to be 0/22/8 but it's something to think about.
Back in Utility, Transmutation (1/2/3% Spell Vamp) gives a better return-on-investment than new Havoc (+0.5/1.0/1.5% damage). Awareness is no longer available to x/x/9 dabblers and is kind of a big deal for all the AP champs that gain instagib potential for hitting Lv6 first in lane. Utility's 21-pointer wasn't touched where the 21-pointer in Offense was significantly nerfed and Greed/Wealth could be a big deal considering it lets you start Doran's + Potion (which was specifically nerfed in the past). Even the typical nine in Offense is less appealing with the first-tier AP talent neutered (4 AP compared to 10.8 at Lv18) and the MPen is only 10% instead of 15% now. I think it's perfectly justifiable to do something like 4/0/26 or 0/9/21 in these new mastery trees.
Either way, the Defense tree is mad overpowered and I love it. 8) The loss of Nimbleness is sad but the new Durability + Vet's Scars are actually viable, unlike the current Vet's Scars which you just have to put up with if you want the 21-pointer because the entire middle tiers of current Defense suck massive donkey dick. Juggernaut is roughly equivalent to current Tenacity -- 3% health is similar to 3% damage reduction (marginally worse) and losing 1% for the 10% CC reduction is a fair trade -- and with Indomitable + Honor Guard you get more total DR from the tree as a whole. That's not including the new movespeed and CDR talents that were added, and I think Siege Commander will be really good if you can figure out how to spare a point for it. With Arcane Knowledge nerfed and Greed no longer a one-point wonder, tanks might prefer to go 22 in Defense instead of 21 so they can pick it up.
Utility is so tough to gauge now. Doran's + Potion start is insane but you have to throw away a lot of mastery points to get it and I think swapping the positions of Swiftness and Awareness hurts the appeal of going deep into the tree, since Swiftness is probably the better mastery. With Offense likely to draw away a large majority of the AP carries that went Utility in the past, it's tough to say if anyone outside of pure support will still continue to go full Utility. Greed was nerfed on a per-point basis but supports will love getting to squeeze an extra GP10 out of it and I think Scout is a really cool one-point wonder for them too.
Also considering the on-kill/assist talents, using lolstatistics to check my entire game history I personally average ~12 kills/assists per game. That equates to 96 extra gold per game per point in Mercenary or 480 XP through Sage. That means Mercenary is... roughly equivalent to one point in the nerfed Greed mastery in a typical 30-minute game. Mediocre at best, junk considering how far down the tree it is and what it's directly competing with (Honor Guard). And not that Sage isn't the worst mastery ever that nobody should ever get anyway, but for perspective here's the worth of 480 XP: Lv1 to halfway through Lv2, roughly Lv3 to Lv4, one-third through Lv12, one-fourth through Lv16.
As far as other changes are concerned, Sion nerf is lame because it doesn't do much to address his ridiculous and unstoppable early/mid-game burst, let alone farm. Big whoop you're losing ten damage per stun/shield pop combo with three Doran's Rings. -_- And while both having 1.0 ratios is kinda silly to begin with, it's not like he was a big deal if late game hits without him getting too fed on champion kills. A base damage nerf would be much more prudent, especially the Shield considering it's the strongest base + level scaling shield in the game as it is... and has the best AP ratio and doubles as a highly-damaging attack. And not that Dominion should be the focus of balance changes but this incidentally does nothing to address AD Sion being insanely broken there either.
"we tend to be conversative with changes for tournament patches"
*completely alter masteries, re-balance the entire ranged AD cast, and add a new champion*
All I know is Pantheon has a very low base mana pool and the cooldown on Spear Shot is short enough to make building a Tear/Manamune worthwhile. I don't play him, so I don't know how badly he actually eats through mana and whether or not it's actually a reasonable purchase. You're also not a regular of the IRC channel #carlsucks so I wasn't talking about you in the first place, I was snipping at G80/Synre for trolling.
And yeah srsly I was theorycrafting Singed's new mastery trees last night too. 8) (I really need to get back to playing him, SO FUN!) I now get more [constant] movespeed and more damage reduction? I can now pick up the MPen talent while retaining my existing movespeed and not losing Imp Ghost? :happybrain::happybrain::happybrain: I actually kinda wonder if full Utility wouldn't be viable for him now. The new Preseverance at 3%/point is really good, but forces full Utility for how deep in the tree it is, and the Spell Vamp from Transmutation is sorta roundabout damage reduction (or a ton more regen) if you look at it from a survivability standpoint. Ultimately, I'm pretty sure I want to be 0/22/8 but it's something to think about.
I hate it when people are complaining about the ONLY thing a hero is good at. Caitlyn is basically useless without her range, her early game is great because her late is just terrible, she was designed to have more farm to make up for it, but now, bad people losing to Cait because they do stupid things are rejoicing when Tristana and is greater range (at lvl11+) + steroids + gap closer is still "UP", people are just so dumb, it makes me sad for Cait players.
There are SO MUCH CHAMPS that have great potential but are yet not played because high ELOs do not play them. Xerath was considered "bad and useless" a few weeks ago, then Chauster from CLG played it in a match, and did like 10/0, then in a second match 10/0 again. Suddently, Xerath was like the most OP mid hero that was ever released in the history of all MOBAs. Yea, Xerath was good from the start, I don't know why people didn't realise it but it was kinda obvious...
There are SO MUCH CHAMPS that have great potential but are yet not played because high ELOs do not play them. Xerath was considered "bad and useless" a few weeks ago, then Chauster from CLG played it in a match, and did like 10/0, then in a second match 10/0 again. Suddently, Xerath was like the most OP mid hero that was ever released in the history of all MOBAs. Yea, Xerath was good from the start, I don't know why people didn't realise it but it was kinda obvious...
i am sick of this 'caitlyn is bad lategame'
she is an ad ranged carry
there is NO WAY she can have a bad lategame
what defines an ad carry lategame is the following, in order
a) range
b) cc
c) damage
which is why cait and kog will always be insane as long as they don't lose their lane, because they have horrendously long range. and it's insanely difficult to topple them in lane just because of said range and their high poke skills. tristana has good range lategame and is arguably the second best lategame ranged carry (after kog) but her laning and midgame is so shitty that her team is 4v5 (technically 3v5 because you MUST run soraka or taric if you want to use tristana) for most of the game.
graves is an interesting case because he has low range yet he doesn't need to be itemised like a 'true' ranged carry...you can essentially play him as a tanky dps ala urgot and mordekaiser and still eat faces, and as long as he has the scaling of an ad carry with the laning power and 1v1 prowess of a bruiser then he'll be hella overpowered
these buffs and nerfs are necessary if we dont want bot to become even more boring than top
she is an ad ranged carry
there is NO WAY she can have a bad lategame
what defines an ad carry lategame is the following, in order
a) range
b) cc
c) damage
which is why cait and kog will always be insane as long as they don't lose their lane, because they have horrendously long range. and it's insanely difficult to topple them in lane just because of said range and their high poke skills. tristana has good range lategame and is arguably the second best lategame ranged carry (after kog) but her laning and midgame is so shitty that her team is 4v5 (technically 3v5 because you MUST run soraka or taric if you want to use tristana) for most of the game.
graves is an interesting case because he has low range yet he doesn't need to be itemised like a 'true' ranged carry...you can essentially play him as a tanky dps ala urgot and mordekaiser and still eat faces, and as long as he has the scaling of an ad carry with the laning power and 1v1 prowess of a bruiser then he'll be hella overpowered
these buffs and nerfs are necessary if we dont want bot to become even more boring than top
Hey I like watching top because I'm a fan of high CS numbers stop hating on FarmShotGG and TheFarmMan.
She is an AD ranged carry with a bad lategame because she doesn't have a steroid.
Tristana? Huge AS steroid.
Graves? Huge AS steroid attached to a dash (and his Q-R are better than Cait's to boot).
MF? Moderate AS steroid that also passively adds extra damage, Q is on-hit.
Kog? Small passive AS steroid and a massive damage/range steroid.
Corki? Umm, he deals 10% additional True damage bro. And Armor shred.
Ezreal? Passive is a moderate AS steroid and his Q is on-hit.
Twitch actually has the most steroids. Sivir leaves much to be desired as a "ranged" carry but Ricochet is a pretty mean "steroid" if you have multiple targets in range to hit. Who's missing? Caitlyn. Well, Ashe too but her entire schtick is that she's the "utility" carry: no steroids but constantly slows targets, built-in CV, and arguably the best initiation tool in the game. Caitlyn has nothing except above-average range, as she has the worst damage (besides Ashe) and absolutely no utility other than a really crappy dash variant. Actually, I forgot about Urgot too but that's because late-game he doesn't really play the role of a ranged AD carry at all. Besides, he dumps on people in lane even worse than Caitlyn and has late-game utility and tankiness.
bad late-game tbh
Ok, so, let's see how good Caitlyn is following your post :
-Range : Caitlyn's strong point, one of the best range in the game, nothing to say here, but remember it won't be that great after the nerf.
-CC : Her net can't be used for CC since it will put you out of the case, her traps can't be used in battle because they're too slow, so she has pretty much NOTHING.
-Damage (per second) : Standard AD Carry damage + her passive, which can do good damage, but no steroids AT ALL, so meh.
I don't see anything good for her lategame if she get nerfed, not to say you forgot Utility (where Cait is also pretty bad). Stop saying she is good in lategame when she is obviously not compared to other AD Carries, a 80% AS steroid = 80% more DPS, nearly 2x initial DPS, how can Cait compare to that ? % of enemy's life = Tremendous magic damage, how can Cait compare to that ? 3s stun + AoE slow + permaslow, how can Cait compare to that ? ...
Caitlyn is a good AD Carry which shines early game with her utility, escape and poking ability, her goal is to outfarm her opponent to be able to get into lategame with better stuff than her opponent, because she can't do THAT much.
-Range : Caitlyn's strong point, one of the best range in the game, nothing to say here, but remember it won't be that great after the nerf.
-CC : Her net can't be used for CC since it will put you out of the case, her traps can't be used in battle because they're too slow, so she has pretty much NOTHING.
-Damage (per second) : Standard AD Carry damage + her passive, which can do good damage, but no steroids AT ALL, so meh.
I don't see anything good for her lategame if she get nerfed, not to say you forgot Utility (where Cait is also pretty bad). Stop saying she is good in lategame when she is obviously not compared to other AD Carries, a 80% AS steroid = 80% more DPS, nearly 2x initial DPS, how can Cait compare to that ? % of enemy's life = Tremendous magic damage, how can Cait compare to that ? 3s stun + AoE slow + permaslow, how can Cait compare to that ? ...
Caitlyn is a good AD Carry which shines early game with her utility, escape and poking ability, her goal is to outfarm her opponent to be able to get into lategame with better stuff than her opponent, because she can't do THAT much.
yeah but she has 650 range (42:00) (also irony at graves, 'the numbers would have to be huge' and look at him now)
remember your dps is zero if you are dead as a result of having a puny 600 range (except graves because he's op) and don't tell me 650 and 600 aren't different because that is a huge difference. graves > caitlyn = kog'maw > rest
anyway i have proven to an audience of sgtwoodsy, imperfectluck, lonelyness and doomvm that level 1 dragon is doable by shaco, though your first jungle run will be slower as a result of obtaining +190g for your entire team at level 1
wish we could do this with fiddles still but they buffed him overall at the expense of early jungle power
unrelated - use this to change your recommended items ingame for more SHOP APM
remember your dps is zero if you are dead as a result of having a puny 600 range (except graves because he's op) and don't tell me 650 and 600 aren't different because that is a huge difference. graves > caitlyn = kog'maw > rest
anyway i have proven to an audience of sgtwoodsy, imperfectluck, lonelyness and doomvm that level 1 dragon is doable by shaco, though your first jungle run will be slower as a result of obtaining +190g for your entire team at level 1
wish we could do this with fiddles still but they buffed him overall at the expense of early jungle power
unrelated - use this to change your recommended items ingame for more SHOP APM
Spell Vamp is pretty bad on Singed even at 25%, I don't see myself going for the 3%. I see myself either going 1/21/8 or 9/21/0
Excited for MF buffs, but they had better not nerf Caitlyn's range. It may be her best quality, but it's also what makes Caitlyn Caitlyn.
Ok, let's say it takes 1 more s to catch Cait compared to an other AD Carry, do you think 1s is viable while Kog, Vayne or Trist have like 1,5times/2times her DPS ? Sure she is harder to catch, but her damage is also less sgnificant, while she can do 5000 damage over 5s (example), Kog Maw could do 7000 in 4s.
Killing faster = Staying alive longer. Not to say she doesn't have the greatest range at lvl.18, so she isn't the best at "Staying alive".
Also, doing Dragon at lvl.1 is a BAD IDEA, even if the enemy team is stupid enough to let you do it, you will lose way more than you get : You will be underleveled, not to say Shaco can jungle fast at low levels only with a good setup and boxes, so you would be behind in levels during the whole game, something an assassin should never do.
Getting a dragon is not worth doing 4v5 for the rest of the game, Shaco is way too early-dependant.
Cait is "bad" in that late game she has absolutely no use whatsoever outside of autoattacking and she has no steroid. All other carries have a steroid and much better utility, therefore they are superior late game (ie. Tristana with a jump and a crazy attack speed buff) and don't even mention the net. It is only useful for escaping. She is outclassed by the other carries late game, even if she can still autoattack her way to victory'
Watch out, Thorns. With the new cleanse change, that Tryndamere comment might actually be true
If you're that good, tell me one good reason to say Caitlyn's late is "good".
(Btw, "LOLOL SHE HAD 15 KILLS 2 CHARGED BTS AND SHE WRECKED OUR TEAM TONS OF DMG" or "WHEN SHE ATTACKS, RED BARS GO DOWN FAST", are not arguments)
It's not that she doesn't do damage, but Kog, Vayne or Trist do way more in late, it's not that she has 0 utility, but she has nothing compared to Ashe, Vayne or Trist,...
Her late game is bad because she is OUTCLASSED by most of the AD Carries in late game, however, she has the best early with Graves.
Plz, if you're going to say that Cait is good in late, use facts. If you saw a Caitlyn do good in late game, it's because her purpose is to get a lot of farm and kills, so she can get more stuff to compensate for her lack of steroids and utility.
it doesn't matter if you are weaker than kogmaw lategame if you kill him and outfarm him significantly in lane
which is what caitlyn does
if you're able to get a lot more farm, you get your stuff built sooner which means you're strong sooner. obviously caitlyn is worse than other AD carries once they both have their build complete but the whole point is that she is supposed to stop them from keeping up in farm so that doesn't happen
which is what caitlyn does
if you're able to get a lot more farm, you get your stuff built sooner which means you're strong sooner. obviously caitlyn is worse than other AD carries once they both have their build complete but the whole point is that she is supposed to stop them from keeping up in farm so that doesn't happen
Considering it's easy as hell to jump Ashe, meh.
I believe Caitlyn also outdamages Corki and hell, maybe even Tristana (just plainly due to base damages and passive, even with Tristana's spells).
Kog'maw has best DPS hands down, followed by Vayne. Graves deserves special mention because of his early game burst. Problem is Kog'maw is extremely easy to jump on. Harder to jump on Vayne but her range isn't as good as Kogmaw's.
The reason you pick Caitlyn because she can deal great damage while staying at the outskirts. She doesn't have the highest range in the game (aside from Tristana) for nothing. If someone tries to jump you just net away. If they're still chasing you and not dead then
a) You suck.
b) Why the hell weren't you in the back?
c) Your team sucks for not protecting you.
d) All of the above.
I believe Caitlyn also outdamages Corki and hell, maybe even Tristana (just plainly due to base damages and passive, even with Tristana's spells).
Kog'maw has best DPS hands down, followed by Vayne. Graves deserves special mention because of his early game burst. Problem is Kog'maw is extremely easy to jump on. Harder to jump on Vayne but her range isn't as good as Kogmaw's.
The reason you pick Caitlyn because she can deal great damage while staying at the outskirts. She doesn't have the highest range in the game (aside from Tristana) for nothing. If someone tries to jump you just net away. If they're still chasing you and not dead then
a) You suck.
b) Why the hell weren't you in the back?
c) Your team sucks for not protecting you.
d) All of the above.
IT IS RELATIVE. Why do people insist on arguing semantics. Jesus Christ this is not a point of contention. It is universally accepted in the competitive world that Cait is worse than the other AD carries late game. She is played because she denies like a mofo, not because she is number one carry machine. I really would like to know if you honestly thought I was saying that she is BAD late game. If that's the basis on which you judge my intelligence, I honestly don't care what respect you have for me, as you clearly have your own issues.