Small nitpick, ScorrchingTheaph actually pioneered this set way back on page 16 of the thread. You can find his post on it here.with this monstrosity:
Victini @ Choice Specs
Ability: Victory Star
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Fusion Flare/Fusion Bolt
- Fusion Bolt/Fusion Flare
- Filler
- Filler
OP MUCH?!
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Linked
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While I'm reserving my opinion on whether to ban it or not, a few things to consider:
Also on another note, someone said that Aegi makes a bunch of types unviable. I just want to point out that Talon does this but worse. You kinda cannot use any Bug, Fighting or Grass type Pokemon with it present. The only exception would be Ferrothorn but even that is bopped by it.
tl;dr:Ban Talonflame
- There are extremely few things that can counter it. And even those die if it decides to run a different set. If it runs Shadow Ball + Flash Cannon literally nothing except special walls can come in and not be KO'd the next turn by Shadow Sneak. And then of course there is the possibility that it decides to run Shadow Claw + Iron Head/Sacred Sword instead which kills said special walls. Or it could run Swords Dance + Attack. Or it could even run a completely defensive set like SubToxic. The very presence of Aegislash on a team means you're very restricted about how you play.
- It's slow. In a meta where even base 110 Pokemon run scarves, 60 speed is just ridiculously slow. Pretty much everything is going to outspeed it. This however makes it quite menacing in Trick Room.
- It has to invest properly in EVs. If it runs max speed, it's sacrificing bulk. The same goes for max Sp. Atk and max Atk. Or it could just run 252 HP/252 Sp. Atk(Or Atk) where it sacrifices speed. However this is largely negated by the presence of King's Shield. Even uninvested 150 defences are ridiculous. Admittedly this isn't really a problem.
- King's Shield. It's just ridiculous. No physical attacker wants to face Aegi.
- It's weak to 4 very common types, Ground, Fire, Ghost and Dark. Building on the last point however, most Dark type moves are physical which means that with proper predictions, Aegi's going to leave the opponent with -2 Attack. Ground moves are also physical but don't make contact. Nobody uses Ghost type physical attacks bar opposing Aegi, so it isn't too big of a problem. Fire on the other hand does have problems. V-Create, Fire Punch and Flare Blitz all take -2. Of course, Fusion Flare, Fire Blast and Lava Plume don't really care.
- It resists most forms of common priority AND King's Shield out-prioritizes them. Basically only Sucker Punch and Shadow Sneak are unresisted.
- It walls a lot of common strategies. FakeTurn primarily hates it. I mean sure, it hates any ghost type but they hate Aegi more since it not only 4x resists U-Turn it punishes them with KS.
- It provides a decent stop to Talonflame if your usual
Garchompstop to it is dead. It resists Parental Bond Brave Bird. It can get Talon to -2 with proper predicts.
Also on another note, someone said that Aegi makes a bunch of types unviable. I just want to point out that Talon does this but worse. You kinda cannot use any Bug, Fighting or Grass type Pokemon with it present. The only exception would be Ferrothorn but even that is bopped by it.
tl;dr:
For anyone said there is no counters, remember this is Linked, not OU, where almost everything has no counters. This meta is based on checking things, not countering, because its's nigh impossible to counter things in here. I explained how Mega Lopunny here 2HKOs every of its counters in OU. So please don't just say "it has no counters."
What I want to see is "what are the effects of Aegislash in this metagame?" What are the positives if it's there? What are the negatives?
As for myself, this is the way I am thinking. Feel free to disagree.
So far, from what I experience, here are the effects of Aegislash in Linked metagame.
1. Almost every good team carries one. There is almost no reason to not carry one because it fits in almost every kind of team.
2. The infamous 50/50 argument. I disagree with this at first, but I realized how annoying this is, considering with its typing, bulk and offensive power, it's almost in Aegislash favor every time, considering it hits even harder here.
3. Jirachi is still VERY COMMON AND VIABLE, meaning it doesn't become unviable because of Aegislash's presence. So please don't say "it make X unviable because Y exist" just because it got checked/countered by said poke.
4. The reason we unbanned Aegislash is it helps checking these things,
Talonflame
Faketurn
Jirachi
The need of more walls for those set up + attacking move
If Aegislash is gone, there is no doubt that those four things will be more common. My question is "do you need Aegislash's presence to check these things?"
What I want to see is "what are the effects of Aegislash in this metagame?" What are the positives if it's there? What are the negatives?
As for myself, this is the way I am thinking. Feel free to disagree.
So far, from what I experience, here are the effects of Aegislash in Linked metagame.
1. Almost every good team carries one. There is almost no reason to not carry one because it fits in almost every kind of team.
2. The infamous 50/50 argument. I disagree with this at first, but I realized how annoying this is, considering with its typing, bulk and offensive power, it's almost in Aegislash favor every time, considering it hits even harder here.
3. Jirachi is still VERY COMMON AND VIABLE, meaning it doesn't become unviable because of Aegislash's presence. So please don't say "it make X unviable because Y exist" just because it got checked/countered by said poke.
4. The reason we unbanned Aegislash is it helps checking these things,
Talonflame
Faketurn
Jirachi
The need of more walls for those set up + attacking move
If Aegislash is gone, there is no doubt that those four things will be more common. My question is "do you need Aegislash's presence to check these things?"
Alright, another round or disproving his futile arguments.
"Murkrow
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Murkrow: 313-370 (119.9 - 141.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO"
If you actually took the time to look you would notice that the Murkrow I calculated had maxed SpD and Eviolite (not a blank set...), hence the calc you're looking for is this:
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Murkrow: 126-148 (38.8 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Meaning it does in fact wall Aegislash's best and most common set."
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Murkrow: 126-148 (38.8 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Spooky Plate Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Murkrow: 75-89 (23.1 - 27.4%) -- 66.8% chance to 4HKO
The minimum damage after both calcs are 61%, the maximum is 72%. And you call that a counter? Never the less, it can't switch in. Aegislash can link Swords dance + Iron head together and OHKO on the switch in, if you're using the specially defensive set. I wasn't looking, that's why I didn't notice Sp.def and Eviolite (lol) but it didn't really matter because it wasn't a counter never the less.
"not like Melotte can do jack shit to Aegislash anyways"
I literally stated that Sub CM Meloetta runs Shadow Ball. Even the set on the calculator runs shadow ball.
24+ SpA Meloetta Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 274-324 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Not to mention the given Meloetta set beats both the Shadow Ball + Sacred Swords, and the Shadow Ball + Flash Cannon Aegi.
If fact it beats the latter easier than the 1st.
Alright, lets do this slowly. Yes, sub CM runs Shadow ball, I know. But why would Aegislash leave itself open in Blade form, knowing that Meloette is faster and it loses nothing from going for King shield, since Meloette is at too low health for a substitute.
The scenario would be Meloette switching into Aegislash, since that's the definition of a counter, right? Meloette switches in, loses 84% from a +2 Iron head and then does 30-40% back with a shadow ball for then too die to another Iron head, ta-da. Not a counter. But since I'm generous lets do 1v1 scenario. Meloette Shadow balls takes out 30-40% of Aegislash, Aegislash goes for +2 Iron head, again doing 84%. Aegislash king shields and goes back into Shield form. Next turn Melloetta goes for Shadow ball leaving Aegislash at roughly 60-70% while Aegislash kill with Iron head. But in your calculations you conveniently keep forgetting about Iron heads existence.
Like its really hard to make a point when you don't even read it...
It's hard to make you understand when you grasp for straws
I clearly stated at the very beginning of my post that these were checks to the Sacred Swords + Shadow Ball set with KS and SS. Though I did allow for sets running FC > SS hence why there isn't anything like SpD Togekiss up there.
That's not how it works. I can use Ferrothorn as a counter to Charizard-Y if it lacks Flamethrower, but I'm not stupid and grasping for straws so I don't. I'm honestly just sick and tired of people who imo don't play the tire, or pokemon, enough to realise when something is broken. When you have to use Physically defensive Heatran or Rocky helmet Aggron to counter Talonflame, or Specially defensive Scyther to counter Aegislash it's so infuriating. Every time I try I go up against someone like this I spend time out of my day to disprove every single one of their points until they either get defensive or start going in circles, which ends up in a mod stopping the discussion.
"You've proven nothing, you've actually helped my point as all of its supposed checks do nothing do it, while Aegislash kills all of them."
The set I'm referring to I've proven kills none of them. And I stated ways in which lots of them kill Aegislash.
Meloetta sets up and runs Shadow Ball.
Mega Sableye out slows with Foul Play. Mandibuzz also uses Foul Play to kill Aegi. Braviary sets up with Bulk Up until it can KO Aegi (all the way to +6 if need be).
Amoonguss out slows and KOs with Foul Play. Dragonite just chips away and phases with Dragon Tail. Pretty much everything else listed with recovery will just kill Aegi 1v1 so long as they can out damage a possible leftovers, like Porygon 2 for example. In fact I think Porygon 2 runs Shadow Ball so its even easier and less tedious. Pory 2's Shadow Ball + Tri Attack may even be a decent Link given it is unresisted.
See, this is the part where I can tell you stopped reading my post, which evidently I wasn't grasping for straws. If facing your specific set, then yes, the pokemon you listed would've beaten them one on one. But that's not how it works, you don't decide what your opponent will bring. Meloette is beaten. Mega Sableye is outspeed and 2HKOd, easily. Mandibuzz is also outspeed and 2HKOd. Braviary dies to +2 Iron head, as Aegislash sets up faster. Also what attack are you using verus Aegislash? You do realise Aegislash is immune to normal and fighting, right? It also resists flying and has this nifty move called King Shield, though it (braviary) dies before that. Amoongus is outspeed and 2HKOd by Iron head... It's not the other way around. Dragonite is beaten by +6 Iron head the second he tries to attack, or he gets defence drops. Jesus christ "everything has recovery can out-stall Aegi" you do realise everything you listed is 2HKOd, right? You can't out stall that. Porygon2 doesn't run Shadow ball, it runs thunderbolt + Ice beam, which is also unresisted, even if it did Porygon2 is still 2HKOd by Sacred sword at +2.
"The only viable thing you mentioned is fucking Tornadus and that thing is a really, really poor thing.. it's not a check as it doesn't even OHKO with heatwave and it fears King shield."
How are these things unviable?
AV Amoonguss is A rank and one of the best blanket checks to special attackers. Mega Venu is B+. Volc is B. Mega Sableye B-. Hell even Chansey and Lickilicky found a spot on the Viability Rankings, which is far from complete and missing tonnes of threats.
Plus there are Plenty of things on the Viability rankings that are there almost solely for being able to check Talonflame. Such as Regirock in C, or Mega Aggron and Rhyperior in B. And if something can be considered viable for checking Talon they can certainly be viable for checking Aegislash (As well as all the other things these sets check).
Most of these things are unviable. I have no clue how Amoongus is rated so damn high while Lopunny is A-. Regirock is pretty bad, and I don't see how it should be rated. If anything defensive Heatran does that job better, but I still think they're both pretty god damn bad. Mega Aggron loses to Talonflame, and Rhyperior doesn't like a burn. But none of the things you said countered Aegislash. Anything that can OHKO aegislash checks it, though that list isn't very long.
As I said, the other Aegi sets you mentioned have even more checks, a decent amount of which over lap from set to set.
Just for samples given that I'd rather not make another list:
Swords dance with Iron head/Sacred sword:
Completely cock block by Quagsire, which I believe is being moved up to A+ for being such a terrific blanket check for Stall and Balance.
Mega Slowbro also does great against this as even if it runs SS > KS as:
+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 152-180 (38.5 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And then you're booped by a Shadow ball
Shadow ball + Flash cannon:
Mega Gyarados, another fantastic A+ mon that can survive two hits from this link even with Spooky Plate. Meaning you can come in, set up DD, and spam EQ.
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 288-340 (88.8 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
(EQ avoids KS).
Porygon 2 again.
You. Can't. Cherry. Pick. Your. Opponent. FUCK.
I don't see a point in my continuing when you could just admit that Aegislash has its checks, and just like Talonflame, can easily be handled if you're willing to sacrifice a couple team slots. Plus things like AV Amoonguss, Mega Gyarados, and Unaware Quagsire can hardly be considered sacrificing a team slot.
Lets also just throw it out there that strong Ground STAB users and dual STAB links can easily revenge Aegi.
If Aegislash had one set it would be easy to handle, but thats not the CASE. You can't easily check Talonflame, nor can you easily check Aegislash. A set like taunt, roost, will o wisp, brave bird or taunt, roost, swords dance, brave bird beats Garchomp, unless it carries a rock move, but they generally don't. Easily revenge kill? You do realise that there aren't that many mons powerful enough to OHKO Aegislash?
Though Amoongus is outspeed and 2HKOd. There are better things to use to check Talonflame, like Garchomp.
I love you. I want to use Bug/Fighting/Grass types :[
Almost everything Aegislash checks is checked by Rockey helmet Garchomp better, and Garchomp isn't broken, so I don't see why we need Aegislash.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-238006806
Read the chat^
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Some questions/suggestions:
Too lazy to do the rest.Linked Viability Rankings
Made by Hack_Guy , Chopin Alkaninoff , InfernapeTropius11 , M'joe'ra and TheBlueFiretruck
A+
Dragonite - Move down imo. Sky Drop is banned. Espeed + Protect is banned.
Gyarados-Mega - DDance + Crunch is good but move it down to A.
Charizard-Mega X - DD + Fire Punch is good but not A+ material. Same for DD + Dragon Claw
Altaria-Mega - I've never seen this on the ladder. Why is it ranked so high?
Aegislash - S Rank if it isn't banned
A
Landorus T - Move up Gravity/Smack Down + EQ hits everything and deals a lot of damage.
Garchomp - Move up. It's currently one of the best physical walls in the tier.
Charizard-Mega Y - SolarBeam is banned. So Solar Beam + Fire Blast isn't possible. Air Slash + Fire Blast isn't really too great.
Metagross-Mega - Never seen this either, so why?
Amoonguss - Move to A- or B+. It checks Manaphy and the two Landos and has Regen + Spore. But nothing too great.
Landorus-Incarnate - See Lando-T
A-
Pinsir-Mega - Never actually seen this.
Weavile - Let it stay. Knock Off + Assurance is pretty good.
Gallade-Mega - Stops FakeTurn I guess but isn't really worth the Mega slot. Move it down imo.
Tyranitar-Mega - Stops Talonflame maybe? No comment here. Actually wait, if both this and normal Tyranitar are here, do they both serve different functions? If they serve the same function, move one down. Mega because it uses the Mega slot or normal Tyranitar because of the lower bulk.
Zapdos - No idea as to why this is here. Never actually seen it.
Lopunny-Mega - Move up. Return + HJK is pretty powerful and so is Fake Out + Power Up Punch
Feraligatr - Never seen it but it should be pretty decent.
Cloyster - Move it down imo. It doesn't have a really good chance to set up Shell Smash in the meta due to everything running only attacks.
Politoed - Why? Literally the only good thing about it is Drizzle.
Excadrill - Let it stay. It's awesome in Sand.
Tyranitar - See Mega
Quagsire - It's pretty cool and should be used more often imo.
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the Linked metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.
B+
Serperior - Undecided. Talon's presence means it should stay here but without it, this would be higher.
Gengar - Move up. Scarf Shadow Ball + Sludge Wave gets a lot of KOs and outspeeds pretty much everything without priority.
Cinccino - Move down. No more flinchax for you.
Lucario - Espeed + Protect is banned. SD + CC is cool but maybe move it to B.
Gardevoir-Mega - Let it stay. Echoed Voice + Hyper Voice kills so many things. After 3 turns of Echoed Voice, it's BP is so high that it OHKOs Magnezone. It's too slow though.
Latios - Move up maybe. Psyshock + Draco Meteor is devastating.
Kingdra - Haven't seen it used, so no idea.
Kyurem-Black - Move to A- or A imo. There isn't anything I can think of that switches into Banded Outrage + Fusion Bolt without taking at least 50%.
Bisharp - This is actually kinda underrated. Knock Off + Iron Head is really good.
Swampert-Mega - Move to B. It's awesome in rain but bad outside it.
Venusaur-Mega - What does this actually run?
Slowbro-Mega - Move it to A. It's easily one of the best physical walls. Plus it can sets up on Manaphy. As in you give it a safe switch and you can simply use CM + Slack Off. Even Modest Manaphy at +6 can't OHKO:
+6 252+ SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 287-338 (72.8 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I feel like so many things on the viability rankings is just put there because "meh". Most of the things I haven't seen used, or they're greatly overestimated
It's because the rankings were made before this became OMoTM, meaning very few people actually played it. The whole thing needs a revamp.
I'm going to do the same, but only the S and A ranks.
edit: Also Diancie -> A. I don't think Diancie is even on the list lmao
I'm not doing more b/c there needs to be a revamp. Imo get in a skype call with some players and remake it. Hack, Chopin, Darkeknight, Jernmax and I would be a good call. Prolly some others but would need to be smallishLinked Viability Rankings
Made by Hack_Guy , Chopin Alkaninoff , InfernapeTropius11 , M'joe'ra and TheBlueFiretruck
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the Linked metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These pokemon define the metagame.
S Rank
Talonflame - Ban imo. It invalidates too many mons
Clefable - Move down to A+. A great mon, yes but not on the level of Talon or Aegi
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the Linked metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.
A+
Dragonite - Move down to B+. Even with Sky Drop it shouldn't have been this high.
Charizard - Mega X - Move down to A. It's not as good as Gyarados b/c it lacks Mold Breaker and not as good as Alt b/c it's typing and STABs aren't good enough.
Aegislash - Easy move to S. We should ban this as well b/c of the precedent it sets. I don't think a ban is absolutely necessary; but there was no reason to bring it down in the first place.
A
Gliscor - Down to A-. The Sub + Toxic set really isn't *that* good
Keldeo - A+ for sure. The scarf set is insanely good
Azumarill - probably B-. I've literally never seen this thing do anything significant and belly drum doesn't work b/c of Talon, Quag, and Clef
Mienshao - Like somewhere in C? It's just not strong enough
Infernape - Maybe C+? It's just not good.
Landorus T - B+, the scarf set is alright but its defensive set gets outclassed by chomp
Magnezone - B maybe.
Garchomp - A+ for sure. It checks so much, has stealth rock and phazing.
Amoonguss - Why is this A? Celebi is better at checking manaphy and keldeo (has recover and can Nasty+Pass or Leech+pass), which is all you would be using this for
Manaphy - A+. Do you have any idea how many teams this 6-0s?
A-
Pinsir-Mega - B-. Defenses aren't good enough
Weavile - B. Defenses are shit but I guess it's powerful w/ Knock off/Ice punch + Assurance
Tyranitar - Mega - A. This is at least as good as CharX at DDancing, and gets up Sand for Exca
Zapdos - B or B-. Defensively oriented mons don't have a good time in this meta
Lopunny-Mega - Seems like A or A+ material. probably A
Feraligatr - it's not nearly as good as the other stuff in A-. B imo
Ambipom - B-. it doesn't do much but being fast is cool I guess
Manectric-Mega - Might be fine here, but B+ might be warranted.
Tyranitar - B+. It's outclassed by Mega Ttar but if you want sand I guess
Ferrothorn - A. Might be fine here though
Quagsire - A. Unaware warrants the shift up
edit: Also Diancie -> A. I don't think Diancie is even on the list lmao
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Sorta difficult to not use something out the ordinary. I can see half the things on the vability ladder going down simply because of Talonflame and Aegislash
A piratepad would be better to make viabilty rankings. Just start a conversation with people you want to. It would be better than skype because of time zone issues.
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
I don't mind helping out with the viability rankings again either, after playing the meta a bit I realized we missed a lot of stuff in the first draft that is actually very good :p
A revamp would be great n_n
A revamp would be great n_n
IMO, Ferrothorn should definately be moved to A. Iron Barbs + Rocky Helmet is terrifying in this meta, with the prevalence of physical attackers like Jirachi and Talonflame (Ferrothorn is a good switch in to a predicted BB+acrobatics). It's also bulky enough to resist boosted Manaphy so that it can respond with Thunder Wave:
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ferrothorn: 174-206 (49.4 - 58.5%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's not to mention its Leech Seed + Spikes link, which sets up entry hazards and pressures the opponent into switching.
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ferrothorn: 174-206 (49.4 - 58.5%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's not to mention its Leech Seed + Spikes link, which sets up entry hazards and pressures the opponent into switching.
Redid the gorebyss set:
Doom herald (Gorebyss) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Hydration
Shiny: Yes
Hardy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Shell Smash
- Baton Pass
- Filler
- Filler
EDIT: Perfect for Tail glow manaphy checks and hazard users. LOLOLOL
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No. Nerfing power to 75% without banning, would make it more difficult to beat any +1 def/ sp def buff defensive pokemon with recover.
With the ban of Protect+attack and 2 turn move, it makes everything a bit easier, I'm sure this 75% power thing isn't necessary.
However, I'd prefer leaving that Protect+Attack move unban, because it limits the attacker's move.
Example: if Lucario is using Extremespeed + Protect, then it's not a threat to either ghost type or good typing defensive pokemon. If Lucario uses Extremespeed / Ironhead + close combat, then he'll be outspeed.
Prankster users, especially sableye or thundurus, beats them anyways.
Aegislash is the problem though.
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
Select teams. You took one set. The entire issue regarding aegislash has nothing to do with its specific sets being counterable; this wasn't an argument in the first place. Aegislash was banned and has been considered for banning in so many tiers because of King's Shield and the sheer versatility it has. Its extremely deep movepool and great defensive and offensive stats allows it to beat almost every viable would-be counter. There are plenty of mons that can beat Shadow Ball + Sacred Sword, but what happens when it runs head smash? All of your bolded would-be counters die just by changing one move.
The other issue besides versatility is its overcentralizing effect on the metagame. It makes the use of many attackers almost unviable, or forces them to change their movesets just to have a chance of hitting Aegislash. Things using contact moves in both parts of their links get -4 attack, which is basically memento without the free switch since they are all physical attackers. If you don't carry something to deal with each possible Aegislash set, you are likely to lose to the right set. You may say that you don't need to prepare for all sets because some are better than others, but there is next to no opportunity cost to run head smash aegi, or any set that lures out its checks and counters and bops them with strong attacks.
Meloetta dies to head smash and hates sub-toxic. It also can use night slash. Not to mention Meloetta is mediocre in this metagame to begin with, when everybody slaps physical attackers on their teams and melo also has no reliable recovery. Its usefulness outside of beating one Aegislash set is basically nothing.
Murkrow Dies to head smash
Sable-mega doesn't fit on anything but stall (its hard to fit on balance and doesn't work on offense)
Mandibuzz dies to Head Smash
Porygon2 is unexplored, could be good, but doesn't fit on offense and is difficult on balance. I would also see it being overpowered by most common offensive threats.
Chansey dies to any set with SD
Braviary dies to head smash.
SpD Golbat is p bad and is unviable in general, especially on offense. Again, completely overpowered. Also loses to head smash.
Mega Venasaur needs to run another move to do anything back, especially vs sub sets. Offensive variants are pretty much awful in this meta, and defensive ones don't fit on offense or balance.
AV Amoongus on anything other than stall. Also is p bad in this meta.
SpD Dnite is overwhelmed in this meta, and loses to head smash.
Scizor is terribad, and loses to head smash / most physical variants. Also has to run dark type move to hit aegi, and its contact so prone to king's shield as well.
Volcarona dies to head smash and most sets anyways.
Head Smash, the unpredictability of its link, its deep movepool and versatility, and king's shield together make it flat out broken; the latter overcentralizing the metagame just like it did in OU and every OM its good in. The number of sets it can run is ridiculous. You say that we can't counter aegi, and I would agree with that, but aegi lacks CONSISTENT CHECKS on offense/balanced offense. There are a number of things that can revenge it or come in when given a free switch, but nothing on offense can switch in on certain moves and beat it 10/10, creating pretty much a free kill for every opportunity its given. For those in fear of slippery slope (threats it checks being OP), remember that most of those mons are manhandled by fatchomp and bulky walls like clef, quag, etc. You can't even attempt to apply the stabmons diggersby argument here.
Isa Simple, You really are grasping for straws here. Literally, Aegi has no counters and basically no consistent checks besides revenge killers. Subtoxic, Physical, SD, Special, Mixed, Gyro Ball...the list goes on and on, aegi can do virtually anything and there is nothing you can do about it.
Also, remake viability rankings, they are a complete mess and are half of OUs viability anyways. This is the time we made Inheritance's and we had played it for a long time before omotm, meanwhile yall are just getting started. Start from scratch, don't even bother with the old ones.
run life orb on that set fren :]
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
xJownage for the viability rankings that's exactly what we're doing :p
Life Orb is terrible in Linked as it will do 20% recoil for two attacks. Nevertheless, the item should probably be changed to choice scarf so you outspeed stuff (also if you did want the extra power, Band is still better than LO as it hits harder and you will rarely click something other than the FakeTurn link anyway :p)
You mean Choice Scarf to beat out Choice Scarf users, or just not running it because everyone and their mom is running Protect or Rocky Helmet to deal with it. It's much more metagame-defining than it is viable.
That being said, though, Scarfed Regen Mienshao with linked HJK and U-Turn has been doing work for me. It's a perfectly good pivot without Fake Out, and frankly, HJK lets it just KO some of the things it would normally flinch before, so why not.
Before anything gets banned, I would seriously recommend Chopin Alkaninoff's idea of 75% for attacks in a link, it would make stall not completely unviable and you could actually counter things. Although if this is implemented we may have to ban Clefable instead of Aegi + Talon, but i think it would be for the better.
So, while the current viability rankings were well made, the meta was undeveloped. If you've played Linked and now look at the rankings you will notice a stark contrast between the meta and the rankings.
I and some people I either arbitrarily selected or volunteered are remaking the viability rankings. Obviously the ultimate decision lies with Hack and Chopin and I have no authority here; but I would like to present them, and the community of course, with a well made and comprehensive viability ranking. If you would like to join the process message me and I will add you to the conversation n_n.
I and some people I either arbitrarily selected or volunteered are remaking the viability rankings. Obviously the ultimate decision lies with Hack and Chopin and I have no authority here; but I would like to present them, and the community of course, with a well made and comprehensive viability ranking. If you would like to join the process message me and I will add you to the conversation n_n.
>_> plz don't do this.
But on a Serious note. Talon does make bug/flying/fighting somewhat unviable. Like for an example: Heracross and its mega will NEVER be used. Especially megaCross. TR has actually gotten a lot better, and I'm sure megacross with SD+CC/Pin would be brutal under TR. But wait, here's the catch. You literally have to be caution of being hardstomp COMPELETY by talon. And you can't hide behind sub, and even if you switch. Talon could(if predicted by the opponent) use that turn to setup(SD)and just start plowing right through you. Or just u-turn(once agn, if predicted right) out of said checks/counter. But this doesn't just apply to Hera. It applies to EVERY SINGLE fighting/Bug/Grass type(except cradily, but who uses him anyways?). I'm basically saying, talon prevent the tier from growing really(same for aegi). Off the top of my head, only grass/fighting/bug is literally, celebi, Moonguss, ferro, mien, Luke, and sciz is probably the only bug type that's used, if not forro. Because of talon existence, no other Mons from these types will never ever even remotely be good. While also, none of em will ever be a reliable sweeper. Which stops a lot of creative sets that COULD be used, but DONT exist because 100% of the time. Talon will just hardcold stomp it. That's all I can say about Talonflame.
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To xJownage and Jernmax
I just want to make it very clear that the reason I was posting things that checked certain Aegislash sets it because Jernmax used the idea the nothing can switch into Aegislash for his case. Which I've proved is false. Every single one of Aegislash's sets has its checks. And the random sets can run to break past the checks to its standard sets, like the Head Smash set, are even easier to check with different pokemon. This is more of a lure anyway.
Aegislash is uncounterable but so are a lot of things, Chopin stated that Mega Lopunny only has checks and cannot be countered. A lot of versatile pokemon have no guaranteed to counters to the every single one of the multitude of sets they run, but every pokemon still has checks to their most common sets. Aegislash is no different from any of these pokemon, it can't run 4 different sets at once. Hence the argument that it has 0 switch ins is incorrect, as every set has them. It could take as little as one Protect to get an idea of what you're up against.
What Aegislash provides to the meta is a fantastic check to many play styles, but it doesn't make these play styles unviable. Without Aegislash, Stall and balanced Archetypes would have an extreme tough time against; Jirachi, Fake-Turn, DD + Attack, Power Physical attack + Powerful Physical attack, etc, etc. But these are still all plenty viable with Aegi around, and you know why? Because if the opponent doesn't have an Aegi, or you kill their Aegi, these things are all broken as fuck. Bulky Garchomp is great at checking a lot of these things, but not all of them, and not as well as Aegislash a lot of the time. If we ban Aegislash, everyone would have to resort to using Garchomp and Ferrothorn, as a result, people start running multiple team mates and coverage option to kill Chomp and Ferro. Balance and Stall become unviable again. Then we have to start banning more drastic things like common play styles and mechanics.
As of now, stall is viable. I've experimented on ladder with multiple Stall teams and have been hovering around the top 10ish, meaning it can't be that bad, given my poor battle abilities -_-. My common builds consist of 5 blanket checks and a fast cleaner. But there are very limited options for blanket checks and Aegi is one of the best, without Aegi stall will be a lot less viable. Stall can also handle Aegi because a few great blanket checks like Quagsire and Amoonguss can check a few of its strongest sets. Even Aegi itself checks a few other Aegi sets.
I just want to make it very clear that the reason I was posting things that checked certain Aegislash sets it because Jernmax used the idea the nothing can switch into Aegislash for his case. Which I've proved is false. Every single one of Aegislash's sets has its checks. And the random sets can run to break past the checks to its standard sets, like the Head Smash set, are even easier to check with different pokemon. This is more of a lure anyway.
Aegislash is uncounterable but so are a lot of things, Chopin stated that Mega Lopunny only has checks and cannot be countered. A lot of versatile pokemon have no guaranteed to counters to the every single one of the multitude of sets they run, but every pokemon still has checks to their most common sets. Aegislash is no different from any of these pokemon, it can't run 4 different sets at once. Hence the argument that it has 0 switch ins is incorrect, as every set has them. It could take as little as one Protect to get an idea of what you're up against.
What Aegislash provides to the meta is a fantastic check to many play styles, but it doesn't make these play styles unviable. Without Aegislash, Stall and balanced Archetypes would have an extreme tough time against; Jirachi, Fake-Turn, DD + Attack, Power Physical attack + Powerful Physical attack, etc, etc. But these are still all plenty viable with Aegi around, and you know why? Because if the opponent doesn't have an Aegi, or you kill their Aegi, these things are all broken as fuck. Bulky Garchomp is great at checking a lot of these things, but not all of them, and not as well as Aegislash a lot of the time. If we ban Aegislash, everyone would have to resort to using Garchomp and Ferrothorn, as a result, people start running multiple team mates and coverage option to kill Chomp and Ferro. Balance and Stall become unviable again. Then we have to start banning more drastic things like common play styles and mechanics.
As of now, stall is viable. I've experimented on ladder with multiple Stall teams and have been hovering around the top 10ish, meaning it can't be that bad, given my poor battle abilities -_-. My common builds consist of 5 blanket checks and a fast cleaner. But there are very limited options for blanket checks and Aegi is one of the best, without Aegi stall will be a lot less viable. Stall can also handle Aegi because a few great blanket checks like Quagsire and Amoonguss can check a few of its strongest sets. Even Aegi itself checks a few other Aegi sets.
Honestly I would just give you props if you can successfully run stall in this meta; I can't even imagine ways to reliably stop things like Mega Diancie or Mega Gyarados from a stall perpective.
So anyways, about Aegislash:
First of all, without knowing its set, there is no reliable switch in. I will absolutely take that back if you show me one, but there is nothing that checks both Shadow Ball + Flash Cannon and SD + Sacred Sword. And even if there is one, is that check viable in Linked?
Secondly, we have to consider the precedent we're setting. We've brought down an amazing threat that invalidates a lot of the meta and has no reliable switch ins because it isn't necessarily broken. Which is true, it's not necessarily broken. Things beat it, stuff can set up on it or OHKO it, and it doesn't have power completely incomparable to many other things in the meta. Well I can think of many other Uber mons that wouldn't necessarily be broken by the same logic. Mega Kang, Mawile, Salamence, and Gengar to name a few. All of these things are just as killable as Aegi and have pseudo-similar power outputs as the other Linked powerhouses. They all invalidate a lot of the meta, but hey, so does Talonflame. Everything is broken in Linked, so nothing is, right? Wrong. I, for one, don't want these things in the meta. Though Aegislash does not require a ban, though it is not completely broken, I do not want the precedent set of bringing down Ubers that aren't completely broken.
Third, as I mentioned a moment ago, there are a number of mons that are invalidated by Aegislash. I'm not going to give specific examples b/c people will argue the fine points and say that these are still valid or wouldn't be valid anyways, but think about it like this: Almost everything is OTKOd (one turn KOd) by one of Aegislash's sets. Without super effective moves, almost nothing can OHKO Aegislash before it moves. I think the sheer number of mons that applies to is enough grounds for an Aegi ban. And yes, Talonflame invalidates more, which is why we should ban Talon n_n.
TLDR; Ban Talonflame
Just a nitpick, if your stall team has a fast cleaner, then it's not a stall team.
Now, if the 75% damage to linked moves is implemented, stall will actually become a viable playstyle with proper stall teams being used. I'm not a big fan of stall, but it feels unfair to me to have a meta where an entire playstyle is forcibly left out :(
You are only strengthening the 75% arguement, if it is implemented then talonflame wont hit as hard and thus won't be so overcentralizing anymore, and furthermore won't be in range of the banhammer.
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
I'm gonna drop this after this post because its obvious you didn't read mine. I won't bother to do you the same in the future, since you can't give me that respect yourself. Aegislash lacks reliable checks on the balanced and offensive playstyles, and you apparently think this is not true. Read my post before you get your panties in a bunch. Thank you.