(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon

Hop uses Snorlax when he already has Dubwool, which he's more associated with. Snorlax could've been replaced with something else -- like one of the rarer Fossils depending on your version -- so he's not throwing out two bulky Normal-types and getting beef for being a "boring, friendly rival".
Or one of the other Pokemon he toyed with in his mid-life crisis:
Cramorant​
Toxtricity​
Sandaconda​
Trevenant​
Heatmor​
Boltund​

Of all the Pokemon to keep, Snorlax was not the one. Also lol at Pincurchin being his third Electric-type.
 
Now this isn't to say that every Unova/Kalos Pokémon needed some American/French inspiration. Mostly this is an elaborate way of saying that it would be cool if we got more American monsters like Bigfoot, a Chupacabra, Mothman, and the Jersey Devil, or Native American legends like the thunderbird or wendigo. We don't need another American region to get those, since we got Dragapult the American aircraft in Galar and we have one American monster in the form of Sableye (based on the Hopkinsville Goblin which is popular in Japan). But Galar has corgis, tea, Stonehenge, Charlie Chaplin, and inaccurate prehistoric animals among other things, so it's not like it's Britishness is in dispute.
I would actually prefer GF avoid basing anything on American Indian legends unless they hire a very good American Indian consultant. The W*ndigo is an example of this, it's been so mangled by people using it in media without understanding it that an accurate depiction would likely be unrecognizable to the majority of the players. GF isn't actually bad about this stuff, by the standards of video game companies, but this is an area that is primed for missteps, and as a mostly-Japanese company with a preference for small teams, I doubt they would even realize just how big a minefield they were walking into.
 

Pikachu315111

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I would actually prefer GF avoid basing anything on American Indian legends unless they hire a very good American Indian consultant. The W*ndigo is an example of this, it's been so mangled by people using it in media without understanding it that an accurate depiction would likely be unrecognizable to the majority of the players. GF isn't actually bad about this stuff, by the standards of video game companies, but this is an area that is primed for missteps, and as a mostly-Japanese company with a preference for small teams, I doubt they would even realize just how big a minefield they were walking into.
Has anyone been sued for using Native American legends like the wendigo? If not, I think them hiring a Native American consultant is going a bit overboard. Pokemon has plenty of Pokemon based on mythical creatures from around the world, never had they needed a consultant then. And this is mainly because Pokemon would change it into a less frightening creature, just as they've changed their own local Yokai into more friendly creatures. Heck, Pokemon already has a few Native American based Pokemon: Zapdos is clearly based on the Thunder Bird and Natu family are based on totem poles (the Rufflet family also are wearing Native American chief headdresses).

The only reason GF would need to talk with a consultant was if they were making a group of human characters & a location based on the Native Americans and their culture. But just to make family friendly monsters out of their legends? Like, I doubt GF talked with any Hawaiian advisors and they turned their four major deities into Legendary Pokemon (and treated them with respect), so I think they'll be fine.
 
Generally no, no one's been sued. That's not because no one's done anything offensive, basically every depiction of a w*ndigo in western media has been offensively wrong, it's because generally American Indian beliefs aren't considered worth protecting by the US government. I'd prefer it if Pokemon didn't contribute to that.
 

Pikachu315111

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Generally no, no one's been sued. That's not because no one's done anything offensive, basically every depiction of a w*ndigo in western media has been offensively wrong, it's because generally American Indian beliefs aren't considered worth protecting by the US government. I'd prefer it if Pokemon didn't contribute to that.
What exactly has been wrongly depicted about the wendigo that you're upset about? And note the Pokemon depiction/adaptation of the creature is of course not going to accurately depict it (like I've said Pokemon has done for many other mythical creatures).

Also, doesn't matter if the US government consider it worth it's time, if Native American tribes considered it offensive they themselves can submit a case of unjust cultural depiction.
 
Has anyone been sued for using Native American legends like the wendigo? If not, I think them hiring a Native American consultant is going a bit overboard. Pokemon has plenty of Pokemon based on mythical creatures from around the world, never had they needed a consultant then. And this is mainly because Pokemon would change it into a less frightening creature, just as they've changed their own local Yokai into more friendly creatures. Heck, Pokemon already has a few Native American based Pokemon: Zapdos is clearly based on the Thunder Bird and Natu family are based on totem poles (the Rufflet family also are wearing Native American chief headdresses).

The only reason GF would need to talk with a consultant was if they were making a group of human characters & a location based on the Native Americans and their culture. But just to make family friendly monsters out of their legends? Like, I doubt GF talked with any Hawaiian advisors and they turned their four major deities into Legendary Pokemon (and treated them with respect), so I think they'll be fine.
The nearest to being sued that I know of is that when Poundmaker of the Cree tribe was introduced in Sid Meier's Civilization VI as DLC, the contemporary leader of the Cree tribe essentially denounced the game because, even though Poundmaker was being represented in a positive and accurate light, no member of the tribe had been consulted during development.

Which I think is a little too much. It's not like they had a British advisor when adding Queen Victoria I to the game, or a Kongolese one when adding Mvemba a Nzinga. As you said, video games often draw influence from loads of cultures globally. Hiring a specialist advisor for each one is not only unnecessary, but pretty untenable.

Edit for above: In fairness I don't see how a Wendigo Pokémon would ever happen. Cannibalism is far too heavy for Pokémon, even with the surprisingly dark PokéDex entries some Pokémon have. And it doesn't even have a definite form to draw influence from beyond human-like.
 
Oh great, I just wanted a Mothman Pokémon and now I started a cultural appropriation discussion.:psygrump: Though I suppose GF could just make (another) yeti if they want a scary winter monster without offending anyone.

Anyway, speaking of mythical monsters, it's strange how Sword and Shield skipped out on including a Loch Ness monster. Gen VIII isn't over yet so they could technically still add one as a Mythic, but Zarude seems pretty random so they could just add whatever.

Heck, Pokemon already has a few Native American based Pokemon: Zapdos is clearly based on the Thunder Bird
Personally I consider Zapdos to be a generic "lightning bird" rather than specifically being based on the Native American thunderbird; likewise I consider Articuno to be an "ice bird" and Moltres is a "fire bird" rather than a phoenix. Ho-Oh, meanwhile, is primarily based on Fenghuang with some inspiration from the traditional phoenix.
 
Generally no, no one's been sued. That's not because no one's done anything offensive, basically every depiction of a w*ndigo in western media has been offensively wrong, it's because generally American Indian beliefs aren't considered worth protecting by the US government. I'd prefer it if Pokemon didn't contribute to that.
My offically-a-tribe-member ass says no one gives a shit.

I've always despised pulling that card, but quit making it sound like native americans need people to coddle them from any inaccuracies about their culture.
 
Speaking as an outsider to Native American culture, my general understanding is that the Wendigo, at least, is probably too sacred(?) a subject to be made a Pokémon, or a monster in general. That said, I don't know why other inspirations from Native American culture for monsters would be a problem in most cases. Something I've wondered about is that, with all the different tribes, how many aspects of culture/mythology/religion actually carry over from one to another? And, not to be rude, but what makes more day-to-day aspects from their culture more special than others worldwide that would stop them from being used as creative sources?

Incidentally, Celebi may have started out as a more direct reference to Kokopelli than it ended up being. That would have been a pretty direct Native American reference!

Side note, want to say there was some minor backlash about the Tapus, though it may have been specifically because of the name "Tapu" rather than anything about their designs (and I'm not actually sure how many Hawaiians actually cared).
 

Pikachu315111

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The nearest to being sued that I know of is that when Poundmaker of the Cree tribe was introduced in Sid Meier's Civilization VI as DLC, the contemporary leader of the Cree tribe essentially denounced the game because, even though Poundmaker was being represented in a positive and accurate light, no member of the tribe had been consulted during development.

Which I think is a little too much. It's not like they had a British advisor when adding Queen Victoria I to the game, or a Kongolese one when adding Mvemba a Nzinga. As you said, video games often draw influence from loads of cultures globally. Hiring a specialist advisor for each one is not only unnecessary, but pretty untenable.
Eh, I think that's a little more fair on grounds of suing. Sure, other cultures didn't mind Sid Meier interpreting their famous leaders whatever way they want (though usually positive), but if that depiction of the famous leader is going to be a massive exposure to a once real life human being than I can understand some cultures, notably ones who often times get overlooked such as native ones, being upset someone outside of their tribe has decided what one of their famed leaders acted like.

Like I know another case where the Polynesian people sued Lego over Bionicle's use of their words in naming things which forced Lego to have to rename a lot of things. Similarly I also think Disney got in trouble with African groups for their use of Swahili words in the Lion King (though Disney either won the case or settled things out of court as they didn't change any names).

Oh great, I just wanted a Mothman Pokémon and now I started a cultural appropriation discussion.:psygrump: Though I suppose GF could just make (another) yeti if they want a scary winter monster without offending anyone.
Well, if this article matches what Hugin is worried about, then I think there is a way Pokemon can incorporate the actual depiction of symbolism of the wendigo into a Pokemon:
  1. Make it a "humanoid". A lot of depictions of the wendigo is usually a form of werewolf or a beast with antlers, but if GF wants to be accurate I imagine a Pokemon version would be a lanky imp-ish creature with exposed fangs cause it has no lips. Probably not to make it too scary, since it has a heart of ice they could make it into an ice-covered creature (not exactly abominable snowman, which we have in the form of Abomasnow).
  2. I'd make it a Physical-based Ice/Ghost-type. That way it doesn't step on the toes of either Weavile (while it sounds like Dark-type I think Ghost more matches the spiritual nature of the wendigo legend) and Froslass (which is a Special attacker). From there I would make its dex description be sorta an ice/snow version of Sandyghast: it's a spirit of winter formed by the greed & selfishness of those who perished in the snow. They are always hungry because their ice body can't hold the food it eats; to fulfill its ever-hunger it possesses people by freezing their hearts forcing them to steal food and valuables to sell to buy food for it.
As for the Mothman, it's a cryptid so it's fair use.

Speaking as an outsider to Native American culture, my general understanding is that the Wendigo, at least, is probably too sacred(?) a subject to be made a Pokémon, or a monster in general.

(Are literally based on the four major Hawaiian gods, I don't think you can get more sacred then gods a current culture has as a basis of their culture's beliefs)

Side note, want to say there was some minor backlash about the Tapus, though it may have been specifically because of the name "Tapu" rather than anything about their designs (and I'm not actually sure how many Hawaiians actually cared).
Oh, you did mention the Tapus. I didn't hear any backlash. Now, maybe this is because Pokemon did speak with a Polynesian association to understand the significance of the gods thus could properly depict them as Pokemon. But these are also major Legendary Pokemon (and based on gods) so that would be an understandable procedure. I don't think the wendigo falls under "sacred creature" as it's essentially meant to be a boogeyman-like creature, a monster to scare people straight. "If you keep on being greedy you'll become a murderous, cannibalistic monster"!
 
Eh, I think that's a little more fair on grounds of suing. Sure, other cultures didn't mind Sid Meier interpreting their famous leaders whatever way they want (though usually positive), but if that depiction of the famous leader is going to be a massive exposure to a once real life human being than I can understand some cultures, notably ones who often times get overlooked such as native ones, being upset someone outside of their tribe has decided what one of their famed leaders acted like.

Like I know another case where the Polynesian people sued Lego over Bionicle's use of their words in naming things which forced Lego to have to rename a lot of things. Similarly I also think Disney got in trouble with African groups for their use of Swahili words in the Lion King (though Disney either won the case or settled things out of court as they didn't change any names).



Well, if this article matches what Hugin is worried about, then I think there is a way Pokemon can incorporate the actual depiction of symbolism of the wendigo into a Pokemon:
  1. Make it a "humanoid". A lot of depictions of the wendigo is usually a form of werewolf or a beast with antlers, but if GF wants to be accurate I imagine a Pokemon version would be a lanky imp-ish creature with exposed fangs cause it has no lips. Probably not to make it too scary, since it has a heart of ice they could make it into an ice-covered creature (not exactly abominable snowman, which we have in the form of Abomasnow).
  2. I'd make it a Physical-based Ice/Ghost-type. That way it doesn't step on the toes of either Weavile (while it sounds like Dark-type I think Ghost more matches the spiritual nature of the wendigo legend) and Froslass (which is a Special attacker). From there I would make its dex description be sorta an ice/snow version of Sandyghast: it's a spirit of winter formed by the greed & selfishness of those who perished in the snow. They are always hungry because their ice body can't hold the food it eats; to fulfill its ever-hunger it possesses people by freezing their hearts forcing them to steal food and valuables to sell to buy food for it.
As for the Mothman, it's a cryptid so it's fair use.




(Are literally based on the four major Hawaiian gods, I don't think you can get more sacred then gods a current culture has as a basis of their culture's beliefs)



Oh, you did mention the Tapus. I didn't hear any backlash. Now, maybe this is because Pokemon did speak with a Polynesian association to understand the significance of the gods thus could properly depict them as Pokemon. But these are also major Legendary Pokemon (and based on gods) so that would be an understandable procedure. I don't think the wendigo falls under "sacred creature" as it's essentially meant to be a boogeyman-like creature, a monster to scare people straight. "If you keep on being greedy you'll become a murderous, cannibalistic monster"!
I think it’s worth remembering that Arceus and Giratina also exist — essentially the Pokémon version of Abrahamic religions’ God and Satan — and Xerneas/Yveltal are Nordic deities (if a culture dies out does it make it more open for parody than a living culture? I’m not sure, but I don’t think so).

Aside from Muhammad since it’s explicitly banned in the Qur’an, I don’t see issue with Pokémon using any culture (mythology and religion included under that term) as influence. It shouldn’t be offensive to anyone, and the fans seem to be on this side for the most part as evidenced by Uri Geller and Kadabra. Because don’t forget that Uri Geller considers himself a deity of some description, not that he has many followers or anything.
 
My opinion is just most of the talks i had w/native people often end with it shouldnt be used or even said the name of so i just do that. Im not the end all be all of this discussion (or even that relevant) but i just find it easier to treat it like that :psygrump:

Also i forgot how much i hate multiple hits in pokemon, especially vs dmax. Who thought that constantly shifting the camera back and forth was a good idea
 
I guess they thought Lapras was enough?
Ehhhhh, even then Lapras barely is in Gen 8
Which is weird, cuz it seems they're typically focusing on notoriously contemporary artificial things for mons (tophat, steam train) of the British culture than....the actual fauna or mythological force (granted there's Stonehenge, the abomination fossils, and you can argue for Eternatus)
But compared to many other mons...I feel the contemporary and humanoid took over
Doesn't mean contemporary can't be cool (A dragon whose head not only is stealth jet shaped, but also is a housing spot for its young is great, along with belly veins for mating calls as a parallel to guitars)
But there needs to be balance
 
I’m a relatively new pokemon fan, having gotten into the series last June, purchasing Sword on my switch as my first game due to the accessibility. If I’m being honest, I don’t regret it, as it was the most fun game I’d had played in a while. It’s definitely not a good game, scoring a 5/10 from me in terms of base game, and a 6/10 with the DLC included, but it was really fun and now I’ve started my conquest to beat all accessible pokemon games, aside from DP and potentially RSE. However, one thing which will always annoy me about every pokemon game is gyms and concepts alike (trials and grand trials). Gyms since the beginning have been basically the same, and if you ask me the type-based gyms are boring and should’ve been done away with a while ago. Totems were a good concept, but they ended up being very repetitive, and in my case, not very hard (including Ultra Necrozma, but that fight is genuinely hard if not a bit unfair for most).
 
I guess my thing is: if its not a gym-like gauntlet, what else can it be? Most suggestions on new goals for a game focus on side mechanics, but I haven't seen any good replacement for gyms that involved actual battling.

I don't mind the gyms that much, but i wish we had a hard mode where these gyms werent monotype but rather themed.
 
I don't mind the gyms that much, but i wish we had a hard mode where these gyms werent monotype but rather themed.
Not as a Hard Mode (because Game Freak already proved that they can't make proper difficulty modes), but I'm all for leaving the "type" gym and going with a "theme" gym.

Raihan's gym can be seen as a "theme" gym, as while he's technically the Dragon-type specialist, both the Gym Trainers and himself are completely oriented around weather.

Not to mention that a team style gym can work as an introduction for what is used in online battles.
 
Not as a Hard Mode (because Game Freak already proved that they can't make proper difficulty modes), but I'm all for leaving the "type" gym and going with a "theme" gym.
I suggested a hard mode because I don't want to completly abandon type gyms. Theyre the perfect normal difficulty for kids and new players in general, and some people do like the monotype theming trope.

Though I guess gamefreak not knowing how to deal with a simple easy-hard mode should damp my hopes lol
 
Stadium 1 and 2: laughs in varying Gym leader teams to not be monotype
And if you do pure rental runs....phew
Well, those not only aren't monotype, but follow no theme whatsoever either. Not even aesthetically. Just random.

Only Blaine (red Pokémon) and Clair (dragons or dinosaurs) have Round 2 teams that seem to follow some sort of actual theme.
 

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I guess my thing is: if its not a gym-like gauntlet, what else can it be? Most suggestions on new goals for a game focus on side mechanics, but I haven't seen any good replacement for gyms that involved actual battling.
Yeah, that's the main problem when people ask for something other than the League Challenge: What is else there? When you break it down, the League Challenge is your simple game progression setup but organized in a tournament aesthetic: You go through a dungeon (the Gym), fight the boss (Gym Leader), and earn the reward that let's you progress with the rest of the game (Badges). Even the Island Challenge was just a remix of this concept: dungeons are the Trials, bosses are the Totem Pokemon, prize is the Z-Crystals. Island Challenge added the additional detail of fighting the Kahuna once you passed all of an island's Trials but that's just more of a bonus boss added to the end of the last dungeon, nothing that feels completely different.

I've tried myself to think of different systems and I've come up with a few ideas but they're a bit out there and would require a lot of planning to come out convincingly:

  • Rank Challenge: (Based on what the anime is currently doing with the World Coronation Series)
    Instead of collecting Badges you earn points which increases your Rank. Points are earned in two ways: competing in tournaments against other participants (this would mean more rivals than usual or at least recurring trainers you see competing) or by completing tasks issued by "Hosts" (replacements for Gym Leaders).

    The Hosts are also competing with one another to give out the most points to decide which four of them will be that year's "Elite Four" (thinking maybe letting the player able to semi-manipulate which ones you'd like to become the Elite Four). The player with the most points faces all the Elite Four (it's mentioned all the Elite Four are facing each other as well in a round-robin tournament) and whoever wins (aka the player) then faces the Champion.

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

  • Bounty Challenge: (Based on the real life "Assassin" game (and some multiplayer modes in past Assassin's Creed games))
    Dozens of trainers enter the challenge and each are given a name of a trainer they must track down and battle, winners advancing & losers being knocked out (though for the sake of the player, it's mentioned you can rechallenge the trainer that defeated you and if you win take their place; obviously only really the player uses this rule though maybe can have a rival character you defeated early on use this rule to be a recurring boss). There are two phases:

    * First phase is "Dueling" where trainers are paired together. Each trainer is randomly given an "advantage", one sets up where they'll have the battle & another decides what the battle style will be. When a match is decided the winner is given some small awards & then paired with another trainer.
    * Second phase is "Seek Out" and starts when there's only a dozen or so participants left. A trainer is given a name of one trainer to find but there's another trainer looking for them (the seeker gets to decide battling style). When a trainer defeats the trainer they're seeking out they're given another trainer to seek (sometimes a trainer has multiple trainers seeking them, if they get defeated the other trainer(s) that was seeking them now is seeking the winning trainer). If the trainer is seeked out but defeat their seeker another trainer is assigned to seek them out. Sometimes two trainers will be assigned to seek each other out, however they won't know it. Trainers will know when the trainer they're seeking and the trainer(s) seeking them are in the same location as them.

    But in addition to normal trainers and rivals, "Enforcers" (replacement for Gym Leaders) will also be part of the challenge. During the "Dueling" phase they get to decide both location & battle style and if they lose they aren't knocked out (though a trainer that defeated an Enforcer won't face the same Enforcer again). During "Seek Out" the system is stacked against them and they can be knocked out though Enforcers will always get to choose the battle style, in addition a trainer will not be seeked out by two Enforcers. Enforcers will never battle another Enforcer unless there's no choice. At the end of the second phase the four Enforcers who defeated the most trainers are selected to be the Elite Four.

    The only remaining trainer faces all the Elite Four (it's mentioned all the Elite Four are facing each other as well in a round-robin tournament) and whoever wins (aka the player) then faces the Champion.

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

  • Squad Challenge: (Pretty much based on normal team sports)
    You & other trainers join the Gym Leader of your Town/City to form a "Gym Squad" and either go to other Town/Cities to face their Gym Squad or stay in your hometown/city to face visiting Gym Squads.

    When facing another Gym Squad, you and the other trainers face against the other squad's normal trainers in knockout matches. Remaining trainers on each squad then face's the other squad's Gym Leader. Beating a normal trainer is 1 point and beating the Gym Leader is 2 points. After all passing trainers face the other squad's Gym Leader the Gym Squad with the highest points wins. The Gym Squad that win most of the their matches (though for the sake of the player, it's mentioned a squad can reissue a challenge against a squad that defeated them to try and flip the win; while obviously meant for the player's squad in case they don't have enough points to face the League Squad maybe can have some Gym Squads you defeated to use this rule to battle you again).

    The winning Gym Squad then gets to face the League Squad, Champion acting as the leader and the own squad mates called the "Elite Four". This time every non-leader trainer faces all the other squad's trainers and then every trainer battles against the leader. The squad that gets the most points wins, but now they must battle against each other with the strongest trainer (aka the player) becoming the Champion.

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

  • Tier Challenge: (Sort of based on a deconstruction of the Island Challenge)
    Instead of battling the 8 Gyms and then Pokemon League, it's split into 3 "tiers". First Tier you battle 2 Gym Leaders & than an 1 Elite Four member. Second Tier you battle 4 Gym Leaders and 2 Elite Four members. Third Tier you battle 6 Gym Leaders, 3 Elite Four members, and finally challenge the Champion. Cannot repeat battling a Gym Leader or Elite Four until necessary.


I suggested a hard mode because I don't want to completly abandon type gyms. Theyre the perfect normal difficulty for kids and new players in general, and some people do like the monotype theming trope.
Eh, if you plan it carefully enough you can make any theme work at an introductory level (and Pokemon games allow the player infinite retries). And Pokemon has plenty of themes they can base groups of trainers on:
  • Stats (or Stat Combinations)
  • Egg Groups
  • Body Shapes
  • Colors
  • Weather/Terrain
  • Rooms & other Meta Strategies
  • Around certain Abilities and maybe Moves
  • Type Combinations
  • Design Basis (Species if animals, kinds of objects, similar mythical beings, etc.
And these are the most obvious.
 

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