meat is murder

[Vintage Books]

Most vegetarians I know don't eat meat because it's cheaper diet for college students (in my town at least), is easy to prepare and cook for, and is generally healthier. I find it difficult that people don't understand that eating meat 4-7 times a weak is extremely unhealthy but there is no convincing those people that they are wrong because, "meat is delicious."

well i know a vegetarian who doesn't eat meat because she hates animals and doesn't like the idea of eating them at all.

There are a lot of reasons but i feel the ones i listed are the main general ones, but i hadn't thought about the fact that its cheaper, even though i hardly eat meat because it is cheap to not.

 

[Jangrafess]

I've a vegan, but if the vote hadn't been skewed so far in favour of the omnivores, I'd most likely have said that killing animals for food can be justified. It's not that I hate pressing my views on other people or anything like that, it's that I think it can be quite classist to be in favour of full vegetarianism for all in a modern society. While I'm privileged in that I can afford to live vegan (in terms of time rather than money - I work from home, I live communally and thus I have time to cook, and find that it's cheaper to live without meat), a working class single mother working full time to support children might not be in the same situation where she is able to cook slightly more complicated dishes throughout the week.

Personally my veganism is mostly for environmental reasons rather than my stance on animal rights, which is what leads me to being against animal testing and against keeping exotic pets. When the rainforests are being cut down to make space for cattle, and the land used to feed one cow is approximately the same area that it's possible to grow crops for upwards of fifty people on, it strikes me that we should prioritise land for vegetarian foodstuffs over meat. Especially considering how quickly the population of the world is growing.

On the health aspect, I've never been healthier than when I when I ate meat and dairy. I get plenty of protein from the sheer amount of beans and other grains I eat. Even the smallish amount of tofu I eat gets me the necessary protein. Calcium is in most soy milk, so that's not a problem either. Vitamin B12 is the one vegans usually struggle with so whenever I find breakfast cereal that contains that I guzzle it down. Also all my meals are far tastier than the meat alternatives. Maybe I'm just a fucking excellent cook.

 

[Nix_Hex]

You may enjoy eating meat, but that doesn't make it right. An extreme example:

Timothy Accleby was a good-natured man. He had a nice social life, and a well paid jb. However, he enjoyed spying on his neighbour's daughter, whilst she was in her shower.

DOes enjoying it make it right?

As a vegetarian, I'd appreciate if you don't post such ridiculous nonsense ... it gives the surprisingly high number of vegetarians itt a bad name (as if Matthew wasn't bad enough ). Anyway, I have been a vegetarian since early 2009 and although it sucks that I've gotten 0 protein (remember, protein only comes from animals), I don't regret the decision.

As far as hunting goes, this is a tricky one for me. I have never gone hunting for mammals before but I did go fishing quite a few times in my life before I became a vegetarian. My dad keeps inviting me to go and I refuse to do it. I went to high school with a bunch of dairy kids so I understand that people make a legitimate living from selling cow flesh and cow juice. However, it's not something I'd like to take part in.

Good thread, hopefully it doesn't continue to get shat on by posts from the likes of Eagle4.

 

[TEA_DEMON]

i've been a vegetarian for three years now and, since i ate meat for the majority of my life, don't really have a problem with other people doing so. i love animals and the whole controversy over slaughter house conditions makes me sad, so that is the only problem i have with it really. i don't really see why people think meat is so amazing though, i've found plenty of meat substitutes which imo taste better than the real thing.

Too bad that Meat gives you the full string of essential amino acids where as grain, doesn't.

hardly the point. also if you're living on $1 cheeseburgers i really feel for you, because you're probably not as healthy as you think.

 

[Steamroll]

If that doesn't shock you enough, the beef and eggs in most fast food restaurants are treated with a major chemical in shoe polish as a preservative for shipping and storage. The majority of public school prepped lunches are also treated with the same chemicals, and are more often than not a much lower quality than what the fast food industry buys. Grocery store and delicatessen meats are of a much better quality, but can still be hazardous to health if tainted meat manages to make it through the USDA inspection system (tip: it's actually incredibly likely to happen, and probably does more often than not. Google "major beef recalls in the US" and you'll see some of the major ones).

Also random facts of the day:

-The burger patties served in fast food restaurants can contain beef from multiple cows around the country.
*Most vegan blogs and editors say it can be up to 100, but that number hasn't been proven. The beef processing companies however have admitted that the beef can have meat from multiple cows.

-The burgers and meals you see displayed in TV advertisements and posters are actually 100% fake, and use teams of more than 20 people just to keep the meals looking authentic for a 30 second slot on TV. The steam coming from burgers and sandwiches is actually created via computer animation sometimes, other times it's just clever "trick imaging" where it appears as such.

 

[Lord Jesseus]

If that doesn't shock you enough

I don't see how the image is shocking. If anything I think it's cool how much we get out of your average cow.

-The burger patties served in fast food restaurants can contain beef from multiple cows around the country.
*Most vegan blogs and editors say it can be up to 100, but that number hasn't been proven. The beef processing companies however have admitted that the beef can have meat from multiple cows.

Oh no!
?

 

[Celestavian]

From a health standpoint, there are plenty of things that I could do to improve my health. I could stop drinking soda. I could stop spending so much time on the computer. I could stop buying junk food. But yet, I enjoy doing all of those things. If I were completely health-oriented, I would exercise and rest in perfect balance, I would have a perfectly balanced diet, and I would sleep for exactly eight hours a day. This is not only time consuming, but entirely boring. It's the same reason why the average human would be the worst thing ever to be. I am not suggesting there aren't intermediates and that you couldn't be a vegan but still enjoy junk food, but cutting pleasure out of your life for the sake of health defeats the purpose of living, in my eyes. If I am going to live once, I am going to do everything I can to enjoy life, and if that's relaxing with a fatty cheeseburger and a 20 oz. Dr. Pepper, I'm going for it! If your definition of enjoying life is being perfectly 100% healthy like the guy I described above, all power to you, but don't you dare take away the foods that I like.

Hunting is something I don't object to either. Whitetail deer are almost pest status here in Pennsylvania, to the point where there's a carcass somewhere along almost every road where someone hit one with a car. The only reason I don't hunt is because I don't like deer meat, and I agree that hunting for sport without hunting for the meat is wasteful. The fact that hunting doubles as population control is a bonus.

Morals I don't care to debate about since they aren't quantifiable. In my opinion, meat is perfectly justifiable as a food source, simply because it's edible. If we weren't meant to eat it, then no one would. We have the capacity to eat meat, so I will do so. No plant or animal wants to die, but they must to sustain myself, so that is what will happen.

To sum up, I highly agree with More Cowbell here:

I have no problems with animals being killed for my eating pleasures. It may sound cruel, but still. I think it's mostly because eating meat is an easy thing to do; you don't have to witness the animal getting killed, but you do get the pleasure of eating its meat. For the regular customer, there appear to be hardly any downsides to eating meat. And, well, meat just tastes a lot better than veggies.

 

[The Knights of Wario Land]

[youtube]cLefs6TE80M[/youtube]

 

[WaterBomb]

Hasn't it been proven already that plants feel pain as well? Too lazy to look it up, but I'm pretty sure I heard that somewhere. The fact is that plants and animals are both living organisms, and it's not really fair to advocate rights for one group while neglecting the other.

I'm all in favor of more humane conditions for animals being raised for slaughter. Torturing and/or otherwise being cruel to another being is never acceptable, whether they are just food or not. I also think, if this much attention is being paid to animals, that more humane ways to kill plants should be researched. Certainly we are an intelligent enough race to come up with such a solution, aren't we?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't believe there is anything ethically wrong with the simple act of eating meat. I think that the ethical argument lies in how the meat is obtained and how the animal is treated, which I understand. However, trying to convince me that just eating meat is evil is a bit ridiculous. Who gets to judge what is evil and what is not? Vegetarians? Non-Vegetarians? Come on.

Also, lol @ anyone using "sources" like Wikipedia and blogs as valid data to back up their claims.

EDIT: Removed first part due to complete retardedness on my part. Of course there are people on both sides who try to impose their beliefs on others hehe.

 

[Jangrafess]

You don't see non-vegetarians trying to force vegetarians to eat meat. Why are vegetarians trying to force non-vegetarians NOT to eat meat?

I reckon about half of meat eaters I meet try and force me to eat meat. It's certainly not uncommon. It's just that you, as a meat eater, don't notice people trying to force omnivory upon you, in the same way as vegetarians don't realise how forceful they're being the other way around.

 

[capefeather]

I have to admit I didn't see the cow pic properly. It does demonstrate a very good point. It would take more than cutting off meat to stop the cruel slaughter of livestock.

I had gutted fish and whatnot when I was much younger, but it was when I started to butcher larger fish, and later animals that I had hunted, that it had an immediate, lasting effect on changing my view on issues like hunting for sport and the treatment of animals.

You could get a similar anecdote for everything I mentioned. I think that, in some sense, people "should" experience child/marital abuse followed by months or years of homelessness because you had to run away etc. etc. Or going to war, seeing all your friends die or maimed in some way, maybe have that happen to you, to go back and possibly end up being homeless etc. etc. But I wouldn't actually wish all that on anyone.

It also makes me sad none of you clicked on the link to view the benefits of a vegetarian diet, I went through all the trouble of finding the study on my campus access and DLing it :c

I have definitely seen some very good arguments about the benefits of a vegetarian diet. Still, like I said, not everyone can feasibly do it. Obviously, it would be cool if we could all reduce our meat intake, pick our meat product sources better, etc. and it all sounds nice and is a worthy cause and such. Yet, everyone has only a finite amount of effort to spend, and everyone has different experiences leading to making it easier or harder to go vegetarian. I know I have the advantage of growing up eating tofu and soy and I like both, but at the same time, I have sensitive tastes and I can't stand many vegetables (especially strong-tasting ones like celery).

Real change, I suspect, would have to happen at a government level.

But if you think humanity can reduce life in the earth's ocean to micro-orgasms

sorry I had to do it

 

[Zacchaeus]

I've seen Food Inc. and it's gross to see the way some of those animals are treated but if 100 vegetarians stop buying Tyson, nothing will happen because those 50,000,000 people who do are still generating an enormous amount of business. I've seen Supersize Me, but the problem wasn't the McDonalds, it was the fact that he stopped exercising and was eating literally nothing but McDonalds 3 times a day. (Although I don't eat McDonalds as much any more or at least things like the nuggets so maybe it worked a little bit in influencing me.)

Steak is my favorite food, I love all sorts of beef, pork, chicken, fish, so on and so forth, and I really don't think that the positives from a health standpoint or a "fighting for the greater good" standpoint outweigh the cost effectiveness, comfort, and opposing health benefits of continuing to eat meat

 

[mirza]

1st world problems

Call me a cold-blooded fuck but I'm NOT ever about to stop eating what I like because the animals have feelings. That to me is hysterical. Soon as animals start starving because they feel empathy toward their prey I'll do the same.

I understand arguments such as the west needing to eat less meat because it isn't sustainable as well as harsh treatment of animals raised in slaughterhouses.

I've killed a few animals by knife and always made sure the knife was sharp and did the deed quickly so the animal didn't have to suffer.

I read every post in this thread and I do not see a reason to stop eating meat completely OR a reason to think killing animals is 'murder.' Red meat eaten often is terrible for you and leads to many conditions especially of the heart. Like anything else moderation is key. :)

 

[elcheeso]

Hasn't it been proven already that plants feel pain as well? Too lazy to look it up, but I'm pretty sure I heard that somewhere. The fact is that plants and animals are both living organisms, and it's not really fair to advocate rights for one group while neglecting the other.

Also, lol @ anyone using "sources" like Wikipedia and blogs as valid data to back up their claims.

Sorry, but I had to, haha. I'm assuming you heard it from someone just making shit up because people really enjoy making that sort of equivalence... but it's a pretty silly comparison. We don't even know whether animals like insects are truly capable of feeling pain. We can't even be 100% sure at what point in our own species' development that we start feeling pain. I'm pretty confident to assure you that plants don't have that capacity. You need a nervous system at the very least (as far as we know) to feel pain, which plants don't really have.

Also for what it's worth, in the case of fruits at the very least, the plants aren't really killed, it's more equivalent to stealing their delicious ovaries.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Hasn't it been proven already that plants feel pain as well? Too lazy to look it up, but I'm pretty sure I heard that somewhere. The fact is that plants and animals are both living organisms, and it's not really fair to advocate rights for one group while neglecting the other.

I am pretty sure this is bullshit considering plants don't have a neural system to feel pain, or move for that matter.

 

[RosebloomNixie]

Peeps in this thread are so speciesist. (Shutup Chrome it's a real word.)

Do you think that other omnivores and carnivores give a shit how much their prey suffers? Cognitive thought is a tool that evolution granted to us and I guess it's just a testament to how weird the human condition is that for some reason we do care. In any case, to the five people who said it isn't justifiable, should omnivorous wild cats give up eating meat because they can survive without?
What part of being the most efficient killers (farming is pretty fucking efficient in the grand scheme of things) makes us liable?

Talking about animal welfare is not the point anyone should be making. The point people should be making is the one that is relevant. How do we make it sustainable. If that means that we have to cut down on meat then so be it. But I wouldn't ever hold anyone to account for not caring about how another animal he/she hasn't seen felt. That isn't his problem and he has no moral obligation to care in the slightest. Top of the food chain is just what happened, not something that we should feel puts us so far above that we have to care for other animals. People should just accept that humans have developed in a way that let us rise to the top of the food chain and that that doesn't really mean anything other than we have the luxury of getting to eat what we want. And before us there were other animals that were top of the food chain too.

So on to the real issue with eating meat.

As I touched on earlier I completely agree that a sustainable answer needs to be found. If this requires me to stop eating meat then I will oblige. I'm quite fond of plant based foods, I even happen to like the taste of tofu. I will stop eating what I like to eat out of necessity, but I'll be damned if I don't take advantage of the situation I have been put in. Who the hell knows when some species is going to start an evolutionary jump and find a way to combat being preyed upon by humans. Humans are incredibly unlikely to evolve in any sort of significant way given that we have a thing called medicine that negates natural selection (to a degree, mind) so basically it's just a waiting game of many many years (thousands, tens of thousands, not really much of a difference) until something comes along that puts humans in their place.

I've gone slightly off topic, but the main point I'm trying to make is that just because we as humans have cognitive thought, doesn't mean that we should be held accountable for other animals feelings when deciding if we should eat meat. We should take advantage of the situation we have were we are able to eat what we want. And sustainability is really (or should be) our only concern.

 

[RosebloomNixie]

I am pretty sure this is bullshit considering plants don't have a neural system to feel pain, or move for that matter.

Someone needs to take another look at plants. The feeling things is probably bullshit, but plants can definitely move.

 

[lilyhollow]

good points, Brammi. Our ability to make cognitive decisions has little bearing on things like morals, which, as we all know, are based entirely on primal instinct.

 

[Jangrafess]

Peeps in this thread are so speciesist. (Shutup Chrome it's a real word.)

Do you think that other omnivores and carnivores give a shit how much their prey suffers? Cognitive thought is a tool that evolution granted to us and I guess it's just a testament to how weird the human condition is that for some reason we do care. In any case, to the five people who said it isn't justifiable, should omnivorous wild cats give up eating meat because they can survive without?

No, but we don't accuse cats of murder if they kill other cats either. I wasn't applying our morals to anything other than a human when I voted no. We're more advanced as a species than cats are and live under a different moral code. (Ie. we have morals, cats don't.) I guess I shouldn't really have ticked no, because I believe that it can be justifiable for humans to eat meat as well, but the vote was so skewed that I just wanted to.

What part of being the most efficient killers (farming is pretty fucking efficient in the grand scheme of things) makes us liable?

The bit where we destroy the environment as well as the animal.

Talking about animal welfare is not the point anyone should be making. The point people should be making is the one that is relevant. How do we make it sustainable. If that means that we have to cut down on meat then so be it. But I wouldn't ever hold anyone to account for not caring about how another animal he/she hasn't seen felt. That isn't his problem and he has no moral obligation to care in the slightest. Top of the food chain is just what happened, not something that we should feel puts us so far above that we have to care for other animals. People should just accept that humans have developed in a way that let us rise to the top of the food chain and that that doesn't really mean anything other than we have the luxury of getting to eat what we want. And before us there were other animals that were top of the food chain too.

So on to the real issue with eating meat.

As I touched on earlier I completely agree that a sustainable answer needs to be found. If this requires me to stop eating meat then I will oblige. I'm quite fond of plant based foods, I even happen to like the taste of tofu. I will stop eating what I like to eat out of necessity, but I'll be damned if I don't take advantage of the situation I have been put in. Who the hell knows when some species is going to start an evolutionary jump and find a way to combat being preyed upon by humans. Humans are incredibly unlikely to evolve in any sort of significant way given that we have a thing called medicine that negates natural selection (to a degree, mind) so basically it's just a waiting game of many many years (thousands, tens of thousands, not really much of a difference) until something comes along that puts humans in their place.

I've gone slightly off topic, but the main point I'm trying to make is that just because we as humans have cognitive thought, doesn't mean that we should be held accountable for other animals feelings when deciding if we should eat meat. We should take advantage of the situation we have were we are able to eat what we want. And sustainability is really (or should be) our only concern.

I agree with most of this, but I do think we have a moral obligation not to destroy the planet we live on through farming. You can refer to my earlier post for my environmental stance though.

 

[Matthew]

This x100

I don't think eating vegetarian is a wealthy man's choice in the slightest, actually. I know personally my food cost has gone down since eating no meat -- but that's a source of one, and I'm sure there are a few who could contradict me. However in the case of Chou's hamburger point I don't necessarily think that eating McDonald's $1 cheeseburger (or can of tuna) can relate healthy eating in the slightest. I think if you want to get to bare-bones you should honestly consider if you're eating healthy amounts of food. Meat, in moderation, is good for you (not the excess that I'm assuming most of you eat). However the people who are eating meat in this thread are probably going to the local deli and ordering a 12 oz steak because they want to. Do you consider that a "poor man's diet?"

If you get down to it there are several health benefits to going vegetarian over eating meat (better heart health, lower cholesterol, etc..) but, then again, that is just eating meat in excess, which is a norm in the West.

BACK to the original point don't call vegetarianism the wealthy man's choice when in reality eating healthy (not dollar burgers and two dollar can of tuna) is honestly the wealthy man's burden.

 

[WaterBomb]

If you get down to it there are several health benefits to going vegetarian over eating meat (better heart health, lower cholesterol, etc..)

You can't attribute those benefits to vegetarianism alone. You improve heart health and lower cholesterol by exercising regularly and eating proper portions of healthy foods, neither of which require you to be a vegetarian to achieve. Implying that meat is the sole cause of these health problems and that not eating meat is the sole solution is silly.

 

[Matthew]

You can't attribute those benefits to vegetarianism alone. You improve heart health and lower cholesterol by exercising regularly and eating proper portions of healthy foods, neither of which require you to be a vegetarian to achieve. Implying that meat is the sole cause of these health problems, and that not eating meat is the sole solution, are both silly.

No no no I said eating meat in excess, which is a common trait in the states. Eating meat 2-3 times a week is fine and totally cool. If I didn't say that then I meant too and sorry!!

 

[mattj]

Also for what it's worth, in the case of fruits at the very least, the plants aren't really killed, it's more equivalent to stealing their delicious ovaries.

this is horrific

 

[WaterBomb]

It was just the one sentence I took out. I know what you meant but the first sentence of that paragraph kind of implies otherwise. Just wanted to make that small correction :)

 

[Lee]

Bit late but

Too bad that Meat gives you the full string of essential amino acids where as grain, doesn't. It also takes a lot more variety of plant foods to create the same group of amino acids... too bad that fresh vegetables, nuts, and other health products are so expensive for the average person in a 1st world country. A $1.00 cheeseburger contains all your essential amino acids... I wonder how many plant based products it takes?

Beef is actually a considerably poorer quality protein than several other sources, two of which are plant-based and all of which are more sustainable. Soy protein for example is biologically 'perfect' in a sense, as is milk protein, egg white and whey. Fungi, while not perfect, is stacks better than beef.

Source

and when you consider the increased chance of heart disease and typically high fat content, beef is basically a shit food and you'd be unwise to use its dietary benefits as an attempt to justify it.