Middle Cup Discussion Thread

Zystral

めんどくさい、な~
is a Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Nasty Plot Golbat is AMAZING
Life Orb, Timid, 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP (the HP actually helps when factoring in srocks)
Nasty Plot
Sludge Bomb
Heat Wave
Hidden Power Grass

It's actually an amazing set. If you are using it early game, you can spam Heat Wave/HP Grass to hit Marshtomp/Magneton/whatever it lures, since Golbat can actually OHKO all of its common switch-ins without a NP boost at all! In fact the only reason you use NP at all is when the opportunity arises itself - scarfed EQ's or whatever are great opportunities for you to switch in and NP when you are sure their Magneton is gone (since scarfed Magneton will outspeed and TBolt), this allows Sludge Bomb to be an effective sweeping attack, as it is STABed, and after +2 and KO most of the tier. You could run Shadow Ball to try and KO Kadabra and Haunter as well, but they outspeed, so you shouldn't be trying to KO those anyway, and it's a good idea to have them dead / weak enough for SR before sweeping.
 
LeadApe should be more effective in Middle Cup than OU.

Leadferno
Monferno
Focus Sash
Naive
4 HP/ 252 ATK/ 252 SPE
~Fake Out
~Close Combat
~Stealth Rock
~Grass Knot/Fire Punch

So, you already see the concept basically. Break sash, then break neck. However, it should work great in Middle Cup. Since Gabite always only can counter it with SR, you shouldn't have to worry about rocks getting in your way. The last slot really depends on what you hate. Grass Knot ends all Marshtomp, while Fire Punch can stop Roselia. HP: Ice can be used for Gabite if you want, as it also gets some coverage on Roserade, however it dosen't have STAB and dosen't cover a lot CC can't. A great thing is that it's the fastest SR user in Middle Cup other than Gabite (BY ONE POINT!) and can't be stopped by much. Nobody likes a CC right in their face, other than ghosts, who are stopped by a good Pursuiter. Sadly though, Pursuit can only be used by Pidgeotto, Nidorina, Pupitar, Grovyle, Vigoroth, Metang, and Staravia which have crappy attack and no STAB. Another ghost stopper is a strong steel willing to take an HP: Fire or Fighting.
 
ive been playing some middle cup and rhydon is definitely broken. even jolly lo eq 2hkoes marshtomp so that shouldn't really be considered a counter. it definitely needs to he banned for a stable metagame imo. really that's the only thing I've found that's really "broken" though-- haunter is like gengar in ou-- very hard to counter but definitely not uber.
 
Splitting EVs or running the Endeavor set are good options because Flare Blitz is just dumb on a Sasher.
Whoops lol ill switch to fire punch. I don't know about endeavor, because that makes fake out kinda useless. Picture this:
Marshtomp vs Monferno
Monferno used Fake out!

Monferno used SR! (100%)
Marshtomp used SR! (90?%)

Monferno used CC! (100%)
Marshtomp used Surf! (40?%)

Monferno used Endeavor! (1%)
Marshtomp used Surf! (40%)
Monferno fainted.
 
LeadApe should be more effective in Middle Cup than OU.

Leadferno
Monferno
Focus Sash
Naive
4 HP/ 252 ATK/ 252 SPE
~Fake Out
~Close Combat
~Stealth Rock
~Grass Knot/Flare Blitz

So, you already see the concept basically. Break sash, then break neck. However, it should work great in Middle Cup. Since Gabite always only can counter it with SR, you shouldn't have to worry about rocks getting in your way. The last slot really depends on what you hate. Grass Knot ends all Marshtomp, while Flare Blitz can stop Roselia. HP: Ice can be used for Gabite if you want, as it also gets some coverage on Roserade, however it dosen't have STAB and dosen't cover a lot CC can't. A great thing is that it's the fastest SR user in Middle Cup other than Gabite (BY ONE POINT!) and can't be stopped by much. Nobody likes a CC right in their face, other than ghosts, who are stopped by a good Pursuiter. Sadly though, Pursuit can only be used by Pidgeotto, Nidorina, Pupitar, Grovyle, Vigoroth, Metang, and Staravia which have crappy attack and no STAB. Another ghost stopper is a strong steel willing to take an HP: Fire or Fighting.
Unfortunately, that dies to Machoke. It'll get rocks up, but it'll die without doing much back.
 
My experiences so far, after 7-8 battles:

CB Gabite is really good. Like, really really good. It 2HKOs Magneton and Dusclops with Outrage, so you basically have to run Piloswine/Ice Punch Metang to stop it or sacrifice something. The only downside is Outrage's confusion after 3 turns.

Chansey is a good team player. The best physical walls (Marshtomp, Dusclops) lack reliable recovery, so Wish support often proves essential. It's nowhere near "unbreakable" like people claim it to be, though.

Roselia, as I stated previously in this topic, is an awesome lead. Leaf Storm/HP Psychic/Toxic Spikes/Sleep Powder @ Sash only loses to Monferno.

Rhydon is FUCKING BROKEN. Notice the emphasis. Once it gets a RP, there is no stopping it.

Haunter is also pretty good. SubSplit versions can beat Chansey, but they lose to Metang.

Metang without LO/Band simply doesn't do enough damage, so you have to choose between bulk and versatility. This is where Chansey's Wish support kicks in again.

Belly Drum Magmar is deadly once set up.

Marshtomp is one of the best defensive Pokemon. It cannot beat Rhydon reliably as Jolly EQ 2HKOs, but it puts a full stop to SD Monferno and Magneton without HP Grass.

Since I have a Chansey, I will refrain from commenting about Kadabra or Agility P2. I've found them pretty easy to handle.
 
New Bog Standard MC Team?

Marshstomp@ Leftovers
Relaxed
252 HP/252 Def/6 Sp.Def
~Stealth Rock
~Earthquake
~Ice Beam
~Roar

Haunter@ Life Orb
Timid
252 Sp.Atk/252 Speed/6 HP
~Shadow Ball
~Thunderbolt
~Substitute
~Pain Split

Machoke@ Choice Band - No Guard
Adamant
216 HP/252 Atk/40 Def
~Dynamic Punch
~Rock Slide
~Ice Punch
~Thunderpunch

Chansey@ Leftovers
Bold
252 Sp.Def/252 Def/6 HP
~Softboiled/Wish
~Toxic
~Seismic Toss
~Shadow Ball

Rhydon@ Life Orb/Muscle Band
Jolly
252 Atk/252 Speed/6 HP
~Rock Polish
~Stone Edge
~Earthquake
~Aqua Tail

Dragonair?@ Leftovers
Quiet
126 HP/216 Sp.Atk/126 Def/48 Sp.Def
~Thunder Wave
~Draco Meteor
~Flamethrower
~Light Screen

Basically the concept is to set up Light Screen to aid, Rhydon's terrible Sp.Def and allow him to set up a Rock Polish, the sweep, Chansey is to weaken the team, for the very few that Rhydon can OHKO, and they can OHKO back
 
So far only 40 some people have joined the social group, so I think we're fine. Also. we have an IRC channel on SynIRC, you know...
 

NixHex

We shall see ;) metadata phorically speaking
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Dragonair?@ Leftovers
Quiet
126 HP/216 Sp.Atk/126 Def/48 Sp.Def
~Thunder Wave
~Draco Meteor
~Flamethrower
~Light Screen
I like this idea for Dragonair but I don't see the use of Quiet over Modest if you aren't going mixed. Adamant Rhydon with 252 Speed BEFORE Rock Polish outspeeds Quiet Dragonair, but Modest with 12 EV's in Spe will outspeed it and has a 81.33% chance for a OHKO with Draco Meteor. Also, my brain is a little slow right now because I'm still tired, but who is Flamethrower for?
 

NixHex

We shall see ;) metadata phorically speaking
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I think you're right Cobra. I don't it's for Grass, really. There's so much more that can take care of Grass, but Draco Meteor won't be 2HKO'ing Magneton any time soon.
 
A dedicated Grotle set can beat Rhydon. Max HP/Defense Grotle can't be 2hkoed by non-LO Rhydon StoneEdge factoring Leftovers, and Grass Knot is an easy OHKO. If you switch in on EQ or RP, you're golden. It also learns Earth Power for coverage and Leech Seed/SR for support.


So, are most of you guys playing on the CAP server? I would really like to try this tier against some good players.
 
SpA Grotle is something I haven't thought of, but in this kind of tier it might work regardless. I'll give it a whirl sometime.

Edit:
My experiences so far, after 7-8 battles:

CB Gabite is really good. Like, really really good. It 2HKOs Magneton and Dusclops with Outrage, so you basically have to run Piloswine/Ice Punch Metang to stop it or sacrifice something. The only downside is Outrage's confusion after 3 turns.

People still prefer Scarf, though. It checks a lot of stuff.

Chansey is a good team player. The best physical walls (Marshtomp, Dusclops) lack reliable recovery, so Wish support often proves essential. It's nowhere near "unbreakable" like people claim it to be, though.

Chansey in MC is actually pretty identical to Chansey in UU - helpful but often a hindrance regarding how easy it is to set up on it (read: subdon). So I wouldn't vouch that much.

Roselia, as I stated previously in this topic, is an awesome lead. Leaf Storm/HP Psychic/Toxic Spikes/Sleep Powder @ Sash only loses to Monferno.

It still loses to a Golbat that uses BB twice, as you'll need to HP Psychic twice to beat it predicting Taunt anyway. You can still beat it, but only if you predict correctly. Also, it always loses to Lum Golbat.

Rhydon is FUCKING BROKEN. Notice the emphasis. Once it gets a RP, there is no stopping it.

If it isn't Jolly, a lot of revenge killers stop it. If it isn't Adamant, a full health Adamant Rhydon can take a hit and KO back with LO, albeit usually killing itself with LO recoil. A Rhydon lacking Substitute is stopped by Split-WoW Dusclops, I guess.

Haunter is also pretty good. SubSplit versions can beat Chansey, but they lose to Metang.

It wins vs Metang if it Shadow Balls twice. A Metang will have a hard time dealing enough damage to KO Haunter with BP, even with LO. (it also wins with HP + Shadow Ball from my experiences with LO Haunter vs Metang, though I'm not sure how well it fares against purely defensive Metang)

Metang without LO/Band simply doesn't do enough damage, so you have to choose between bulk and versatility. This is where Chansey's Wish support kicks in again.

Metang probably 2HKOs with BP with minor Atk investment and no LO, so I see a defensive set topping LO sets. Besides, Metang needs a little bulk to reliably come in on Gabite Outrages / Dragonair in general (4 SpA LO Fire Blast fails to OHKO, and I'm saying this from experience)

Belly Drum Magmar is deadly once set up.

Heh.

Marshtomp is one of the best defensive Pokemon. It cannot beat Rhydon reliably as Jolly EQ 2HKOs, but it puts a full stop to SD Monferno and Magneton without HP Grass.

I haven't done so well with Marshtomp to be honest. It usually dishes damage to a Poke and dies eventually, which I find less than stellar.

Since I have a Chansey, I will refrain from commenting about Kadabra or Agility P2. I've found them pretty easy to handle.
Bolded comments are bolded.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top