Middle Cup Discussion Thread

Vibrava is all sorts of bad, I'd say. That being said, I could definitely see a team of Gabite/Shelgon/Dragonair/filler/Magneton/Metang being viable.
 
Oh Dear God! Stop trying to get gabite banned please! Vibrava sucks well...... yeah. suffice to say chansey walls it. Shelgon is interesting, have not tried him yet, that outrage would be so devastating after one dd...

MixDD Dragonair. I will say it again, and again.
 
Oh Dear God! Stop trying to get gabite banned please! Vibrava sucks well...... yeah. suffice to say chansey walls it. Shelgon is interesting, have not tried him yet, that outrage would be so devastating after one dd...
How does Chansey wall it when it takes 62.9% - 74.1% from LO outrage?
 
Vibrava is a lol check against Rhydon, thanks to Levitate.

Rhydon, Jolly, Life Orb. 252 Atk / 252 Spd

Vibrava, Modest/Rash, Leftovers, or Life Orb, 108 HP / 252 Def / 128 SpAtk / 16 Spd


To this set, Rhydon does 47% - 55.2% with Stone Edge, which means he'll never 2HKO Vibrava even with max damage (barring Critical, of course). This is ruined by SR (although adding the 16 Spd EVs to HP will help this), if Rhydon has good damage roles and attacks when you enter. Although Vibrava is immune to Spikes, which is great.

On the other side Vibrava does 80.9% - 95.7% back with Earth Power. Which means that Rhydon will sometimes KO himself with Life Orb damage after one turn, and always after two turns. The 16 Spd EVs let Vibrava outspeed the Adamant 252 Spd Rhydon always before Rock Polish, which is critical because Adamant Rhydon is so much stronger.

The rest of the set could be rather stallish, with Roost and Toxic. Or you might opt for a more offensive route by including Outrage. If you choose to run Life Orb with the same set, Earth Power will always OHKO Rhydon doing 104.8% - 123.6%, and Draco Meteor will do 81.2% - 95.7%.

Chansey outstalls almost any Vibrava set, if it has 252 Def EVs. Even attack boosting nature with Life Orb, Outrage only does 46.3% - 54.8% to a CALM Chansey.
 
I played some (3 or 4) matches on Pokemon Online, and I'm liking the metagame so far. An interesting set I ran into was Rhydon@Lum Berry with both Swords Dance and Rock Polish. You should see my face when it got to +2 Atk and +2 Spd on my Dusclops. Fortunetely I had a faster Scarfer waiting in the wings, but I can only imagine what it could do to an unprepared team.

Sorry about asking this but, How do you get Pokemon Online?
You can download it from this page http://www.pokemon-online.eu/.
 
Why not allow the use of the lowest Pokemon that only evolve once? I can't really see any major problems with all of those pokes. only useful ones i can think of are Tangela, Misdreavus, Gligar, Sneasel. and maybe a few others.I guess it would not truly be middle cup if they were in it as they aren't in the middle but there are certainly more potent threats that are middle cup legal.
 
i believe someone was throwing around that Weepinbell is viable, its just that he is terribly slow, at base 55.

i think the biggest things running for it is that it has access to sleep powder, and Sucker punch. sleep moves are on a few other grass types, but sucker punch is what makes weepinbell different from the rest, since it is the strongest priority move in MC, barring Dragonair's Espeed. it also has SD, so it can definitely punish the opponent very well.

in sunnyday it has its plethora of good grass moves, and has Weatherball, allowing it to use HP for some other type if you wish. it also becomes pretty darn fast.

in general i think the reason why no one uses weepinbell is because it is slow as hell, unless you run it with sunnyday.
 
I wouldn't say it's the speed that keeps Weepinbell down, it's the miserable defenses and poor typing. Seriously, 65/50/45 is completely terrible. It can't switch in to anything, and even if it comes in on a kill, it's OHKOd by most neutral STABs and any Super Effective hit. Even worse, it's weak to Brave Bird, Flamethrower/Flare Blitz, and Psychic--all common attacks in the tier.
 

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I don't see Rhydon as broken. I am actually using a SR + Roaring defensive Rhydon because I think that Rhydon is not good enough with only one Rock Polish. Even after one Rock Polish, Seadra (among others I am sure) can switch in without taking too much damage and still outspeed and OHKO. Plus, if Rhydon becomes that one dimensional and predictable, you can switch into your counter on the Rock Polish and not even take a hit.

Also, Rhydon cannot come in on a Chansey and set up as some people suggested. Chansey can use Grass Knot (rather than the pointless 50 HP S-toss) to do ~70% which brings offensive Rhydon down well into Vacuum Wave's (monferno/blaziken) or Aqua Jet's (croconaw), among other priority moves, revenge kill range.

Grass Knot is not a pointless move on Blissey. It hits most of its threats for at least neutral damage. And if I am wrong on that, HP Water could be used instead I guess.

If Rhydon has to sacrifice itself to beat Chansey, than it isn't broken at all.
 
Also, Rhydon cannot come in on a Chansey and set up as some people suggested. Chansey can use Grass Knot (rather than the pointless 50 HP S-toss) to do ~70% which brings offensive Rhydon down well into Vacuum Wave's (monferno/blaziken) or Aqua Jet's (croconaw), among other priority moves, revenge kill range.
I'm going to try a Chansey like Wish/Protect/Thunder Wave/Grass Knot in my next team since GK also hits grounds that block Thunder Wave...
 
Charm Chansey is also an option. LO Rhydon can't 2HKO Chansey after being Charmed, meaning Chansey can use Softboiled or Wish/Protect to stall Rhydon out. Few other physically-based Pokemon can beat Chansey after being Charmed, and mixed sweepers that rely on Cross Chop are stopped cold by attack drops.
 
Yeah. I don't even think we have 50 people regularly playing this meta yet...
Anyway, check out the moveset thread if you want good MC movesets. or better yet, go on IRC and ask for some good ones.
 
Looks like a REALLY interesting Meta. I might try to play it a bit.

I think this would have a much larger chance Gen 5.
 
Hello! It appears you guys don't have a Speed Tier list! Well, being bored, having free time and being interested by this tier, I've created one, stealing the format of the NU thread (thanks starcrusher)! If you guys don't need one or already have one, I'll just delete this post or get a mod to.

Green is the color of Speed EVs/IVs.
Blue however represents a + Speed nature along with EVs.
Gray signifies no additional Speed.
Red is used to indicate boosts.

246 : +2 +Nature/252 Base 60's (Porygon2)
224 : +2 252 Base 60's
220 : +1 +Nature/252 Gabite
204 : +1 +Nature/172 Gabite
202 : +2 +Nature/252 Base 40's (Gloom, Rhydon, Lairon)
201 : +1 252 Gabite, +1 +Nature/252 Base 70's
184 : +2 252 Base 40's
183 : +1 252 Base 70's
174 : +1 108 Gabite, +2 52 Porygon2
172 : +Nature/252 Base 105's
169 : +1 +Nature/252 Pupitar
161 : +Nature/252 Base 95's
159 : +Nature/252 Magmar
156 : +Nature/252 Base 90's
154 : +1 252 Pupitar
150 : +Nature/252 Seadra
147 : +Nature/252 Gabite
146 : +Nature/252 Monferno
145 : +Nature/252 Base 80's
137 : +Nature Base 105's
135 : +Nature/252 Pidgeotto
134 : +Nature/252 Base 70's
128 : +Nature/252 Base 65's
126 : +Nature Base 95's
125 : 0 Speed Base 105's (Kadabra, Electabuzz)
124 : +Nature Magmar
123 : +Nature/252 Base 60's
122 : 252 Base 70's
121 : +Nature Base 90's, +Nature/252 Base 58's
118 : +Nature/252 Nidorina
117 : +Nature/252 Base 55's
115 : 0 Speed Base 95's (Haunter, Grovyle), +Nature Seadra
113 : 0 Speed Magmar (93), +Nature/252 Pupitar
112 : +Nature Gabite, +Nature/252 Base 50's, 252 Base 60's
111 : +Nature Monferno
110 : 0 Speed Base 90's (Pikachu, Golbat, Poliwhirl, Vigoroth), +Nature Base 80's, +Nature/252 Loudred
106 : +Nature/252 Base 45's
105 : 0 Speed Seadra (85)
103 : 252 Pupitar
102 : 0 Speed Gabite (82)
101 : 0 Speed Monferno (81), +Nature/252 Base 40's
100 : 0 Speed Base 80's (Charmeleon, Quilava, Skiploom, Staravia), +Nature Pidgeotto,
99 : +Nature Base 70's
96 : +Nature/252 Grotle
95 : +Nature/252 Base 35's
93 : +Nature Base 65's
92 : 252 Base 40's
91 : 0 Speed Pidgeotto (71)
90 : 0 Speed Base 70's (Magneton, Dragonair, Vibrava)
88 : +Nature Base 60's
87 : 52 Porygon2 (Pre-Agility)
85 : 0 Speed Base 65's (Nidorino, Roselia), +Nature Base 58's
83 : +Nature Nidorina
82 : +Nature Base 55's
80 : 0 Speed Base 60's (Ivysaur, Porygon2, Bayleef, Nuzleaf, Luxio)
78 : 0 Speed Base 58's (Wartortle, Croconaw), +Nature Pupitar
77 : +Nature Base 50's
76 : 0 Speed Nidorina (56)
75 : 0 Speed Base 55's (Weepinbell, Combusken)
74 : +Nature Loudred
71 : 0 Speed Pupitar (51), +Nature Base 45's
70 : 0 Speed Base 50's (Chansey, Piloswine, Marshstomp, Lombre, Kirlia, Shelgon, Metang, Prinplup)
68 : 0 Speed Loudred (48)
66 : +Nature Base 40's
65 : 0 Speed Base 45's (Machoke, Flaafy, Sealeo)
60 : 0 Speed Base 40's (Gloom, Rhydon, Togetic, Marill, Lairon), +Nature Base 35's
56 : 0 Speed Grotle (36)
55 : 0 Speed Base 35's (Kakuna, Clefairy, Graveler)
50 : 0 Speed Metapod (30)
45 : 0 Speed Dusclops (25)
40 : 0 Speed Jigglypuff (20)
35 : 0 Speed Base 15's (Silcoon, Cascoon)
27 : 0 Speed -Nature/0 IV Dusclops


Well, there ya go! I added the basics, then built off of what I gleamed throughout the thread. If anyone has any suggestions as to what to add, remove or correct, please PM or VM me, or just post. I'm also not sure how I should divide everything, so I'll let those who play the most decide who goes into what Speed tier, if there are going to be any at all.

Hope I helped!
 
tangramman, thats great, thanks alot!

Also, i've been working on quite some optimised ev spreads, I'll post them in the social group soon if anyone is interested.
 

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