Middle Cup Discussion Thread

Will Rhydon be banned or not?
I dont think it should be, and Im not being those kinds of noobs who were wussing about Garchomp banning. I think a lot more testing should be made, it is easily revened by a lot of Scarfers like Lombre, an Grotle cant be 2HKOed if max hp and max defense, providing no crits are involved, and Marstomp can easily revenge it, or come in on the Rock Polish. While powerful, just like AgilliGross in OU, it can be countered
 
I could see Scarfed Vibrava being about as annoying to MC as Scarf Flygon is to OU, particularly with STAB Outrage and EQ hitting the whole freaking teir, and U-Turn being just a beneficial as it is to Flygon. Its Base 70 Speed would allow it to run Adamant and outspeed Kadabra and Electabuzz, both of which it can OHKO with the appropriate move.

Dragonair would also become a pretty threatening Mixed Sweeper or Scarfer if it's used right. Extremespeed, Draco Meteor, Outrage, and a huge movepool make it a strong contender.
 
Dragonair@ Choice Specs
Modest
252 Sp.Atk/252 HP/6 Spe
~Draco Meteor
~Thunderbolt
~Flamethrower
~Ice Beam

Dragonair@ Choice Band
Adamant
252 Attack/252 HP/6 Spe
~Extremespeed
~Outrage
~Waterfall
~Fire Blast

Dragonair@ Life Orb
Naughty
192 Atk/64 Sp.Atk/252 Speed
~Outrage
~Fire Blast
~Waterfall
~HP Grass

Dragonair@ Leftovers
Jolly
252 Atk/252 Speed/6 Hp
~Dragon Dance
~Outrage
~Waterfall
~Extremespeed

Dragonair@ Leftovers
Impish
252 Hp/252 Def/6 Sp.Def
~Light Screen
~Dragon Rage
~Rest
~Toxic

Waterfall+Outrage=unresisted in MC, while in OU it is resisted by many
Very very versatile
 
I just started playing this on Pokemon Online the other day (thanks to an introduction from Hooker Punch), and I've got to say, this is an exciting experience. It's fun to have a smaller pool of Pokemon to choose from, yet still see some of the most common tactics emulated through it. I doubt I'll be playing much of this once NU settles down, but until then at least, I'll be loving the scene with the Golbats and the Roselia.

Speaking of, just how viable is Wartortle? As the only Rapid Spinner in the tier, there isn't really any question that it could hold a spot on a team, but conversely, the only Spiker is Roselia.

252 Sp. Attack Wartortle's Ice Beam vs. 4/0 Roselia: 66.7% - 79.4%
252 Sp. Attack Roselia's Energy Ball vs. 4/0 Wartortle: 102.2% - 121.5%

This means Roselia can basically shrug off the only Spinner in the tier. Assuming that you send something like Monferno in, Roselia still gets a layer of Spikes in now, and with the lack of STABed Pursuit, Roselia can switch in and out without fear of being stopped.

Seeing Roselia used as a lead makes me sad. Why would you use it so, when you could also run a much better set, such as;

Roselia (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spd / 4 SAtk
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Energy Ball
- Rest

This is my bulky set, that I pull out if it seems like I'm up against a stallish team. With just one layer of spikes, many setups are set back, and with two, any team without a grounded poison or Chansey is set to work. Energy Ball is the basic STAB attack, and while it doesn't OHKO Wartortle without a layer or two of Spikes, Roselia will outspeed anyway for the 2HKO. Rest is the big ticket to this set, however; with Natural Cure, it means Roselia can usually escape with its life, and come back to haunt again later (preferably when Marshtomp swaggers in).

The only problem, funnily enough, is that Roselia is a grass type. That means that it takes a spot away from other useful mons like Grotle, who could help immensely with the problem of Rhydon.

On a different note, Electabuzz is such a beast. It takes a bulky Pokemon to stop it, and it can't be weak to Fighting (Magneton, Chansey), Psychic (Roselia, Haunter), Electric (Golbat, water types) and whatever the last move is, which is commonly Hidden Power from my experience. The best chance is with something like Monferno, who can Fake Out and Mach Punch to deal a lot of damage.

I've seen relatively few Rhydon, and thus the only thing I usually do is send out Magneton on a predicted Stone Edge and Magnet Rise before 2HKOing. Of course, if it predicts and Stone Edges me anyway on the Magnet Rise, then I'm screwed. And if it Rock Polishes on the switch, I'm still screwed. I haven't had much problem with it, though.
 
@Sy123: Yeah, that's true too. I'd forgotten just how devastating Dragon + Water can be, having played UU for too long.

CM Clops will probably just decimate the whole teir once Kadabra has been taken out. Add in Entry Hazzard support that you can't get rid of, and this:

Dusclops @ Leftovers
Bold
EVs: 252 Hp / 252 Def / 4 SpD
~Pressure~
-Shadow Ball
-Ice Beam / HP Fighting
-Calm Mind
-Pain Split

Becomes one of the most dangerous things out there.

Also, is it just me, or does Toxic Spikes utterly destroy this teir's best? Three Pokemon can use it, and Roselia is already a viable Spiker, so why not Toxic Spikes as well?

EDIT: Ninja'd.
 
just played my first middle cup game, i won. I saw you guys saying about a good rhydon counter, but if your willing to sack a poke a light ball pikachu with grass knot ohkos it. I'm not sure what kind of rhydon i was facing, but i hit him for 253% of his hp.
 
I could see Scarfed Vibrava being about as annoying to MC as Scarf Flygon is to OU, particularly with STAB Outrage and EQ hitting the whole freaking teir, and U-Turn being just a beneficial as it is to Flygon. Its Base 70 Speed would allow it to run Adamant and outspeed Kadabra and Electabuzz, both of which it can OHKO with the appropriate move.

Dragonair would also become a pretty threatening Mixed Sweeper or Scarfer if it's used right. Extremespeed, Draco Meteor, Outrage, and a huge movepool make it a strong contender.
The problem with Vibrava is largely that Gabite outclasses it in almost every role. Sure, it has UTurn, but Gabite has 20 more base attack and 12 more base speed, meaning it will kill more stuff.
 
Roselia / Marshtomp / Magmar is actually a really solid core. Roselia sets up Toxic Spikes and/or Spikes, Marshtomp sets up Stealth Rock and helps with Rhydon, and Magmar acts as a wall breaker. Fire Blast / HP Grass / Cross Chop / Flare Blitz is incredibly efficient. HP Grass is there for Marshtomp and Rhydon, obviously. Rhydon is easy to avoid if you try to go on the offense instead of the defense (ie avoid Chansey and such). Many Middle Cup Pokemon have decent bulk and typing, so you don't need to rely on dedicated walls for defense.
 
Define decent bulk. Many MC pokemon are 2hkoed by stab EQ, so i dont see how you dont need dedicated walls.

On a side note, I want to try mixdd dragonair. gogogo Draco Meteor!
 
Define decent bulk. Many MC pokemon are 2hkoed by stab EQ, so i dont see how you dont need dedicated walls.

On a side note, I want to try mixdd dragonair. gogogo Draco Meteor!
Well, Rhydon cannot switch into any of the Pokemon I mentioned (Roselia, Marshtomp, and Magmar). With such an offensive core, your opponent will have a hard time finding opportunities to switch Rhydon in. Rhydon can literally 2HKO the entire MC tier (Stone Edge does 45.8% - 54.2% to 252 HP / 252 Def Impish Grotle, so have fun with that) which is why it's best to avoid dedicated walls altogether. Maybe it's just the offensively oriented team I run, but I don't seem to have any problems with Rhydon. By "decent" bulk I'm referring to Marshtomp, who can tank hits pretty well in MC with its 70 / 70 / 70 defenses and great typing. Considering the statement "decent bulk" is relative to the other options in the first place, I don't see how telling me how Rhydon 2HKOs practically anything in the tier is useful information.
 
Has Vigoroth been mentioned? It has 80 HP/Attack/Defense/Speed making it relatively bulky and sweeper worthy. And a potentially great ability
 
I ran a purely mixed Dragonair. Maxed both offenses and added a little speed (91 vs. 90 w/ no investment). Draco Meteor/Fire Blast/E-Speed/Outrage and it cleans up. FB OHKOs Metang, E-Speed 2HKOs Gabite, Outrage for Chansey. The only problem I had was a Machoke of Deck Knight's that survived my DM and Ice Punched, but it did enough damage in the meantime. Also, defensive Grotle is great, not just for Rhydon. I've found plenty of chances to switch in and wall with Reflect and Leech Seed.
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
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I've been more concerned with the Dragonairs and Porygon2s I've run into than Rhydons. Rhydon has the same issues as Lairon in that it's very difficult to get that Rock Polish in. Even if you do, there are a select few Pokemon (Dusclops, Scarfers with >70 Base Speed) that can still cripple you or defeat outright. Bulkier Pokemon can also withstand a Rhydon attack at full health and retaliate, Machoke being a good example. Without Sandstorm support or Solid Rock Rhydon is still hampered by it's inability to deal with most special attackers.

Download is a beastly ability on Porygon2. I've only made two teams so the only set I have is a modified Trick Room set with Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Return. Porygon2 in general though is a menace. The only reason I've been able to do much to them is because I run Machoke and most P2 don't run Psychic. Otherwise It's basically kill or be killed when another Porygon2 comes out, it's too dangerous to leave alone.
 
Blue Tornado: +2 Rhydon and P2 still outspeed Gabite if they run +Spd, so I don't see the point in running Scarf.

All lead Golbat I've seen used Taunt first turn fearing Sleep Powder. I've never seen Lum Golbat.

Even max/max+ Dusclops gets 2HKOd so good luck countering Rhydon with that.

Using Metang, with Leftovers and max Attack Adamant, I've failed to KO Magmar at ~%25 and Rhydon at ~%35 using BP. I'd have won 2 more matches if I had been running LO or CB. The lack of power makes a difference.
 
@ Buckles
I did the same thing except with max speed and more attack vs. SAtk. Also, please people, run flamethrower on your magmar/dragonair/whatever, not fire blast. I have seen too many situations where it misses and I get a free sweep.

On the other hand, I swept with a marshtomp the other day. :D
 
On the other hand, I swept with a marshtomp the other day. :D
u using my set? lol

Anyways, I've played against rhydon many times (almost every team), and I've always been able to deal with it. I dont know if I'm getting lucky or what, but I dont think its ban worthy.
 

Delta 2777

Machampion
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I really, really want to know why you would play "Middle Cup" over NFE. The only difference is that in MC, first evolutions are banned, often meaning that many underwhelming Pokemon are banned while overpowering Pokemon are not banned. The concept makes no sense and there's no reason to play Middle Cup when NFE makes much more sense.

That being said, I'm part of another website that plays NFE, and it is a very fun tier to play. I can tell you for certain that Porygon2 and Rhydon are unquestionably overpowering (the equivilent of "Uber" for NFE), and should be banned. Chansey, Dusclops, Scyther, Magmar, Electabuzz, Shelgon, Sneasel, Yanma, Magneton, Haunter, and Kadabra are all questionably broken as well. It is actually a very balanced tier in terms of stall's effectiveness vs offense's effectiveness, seeing that stall has assests such as Metang, Togetic, Munchlax, Misdreavious (Dusclops if you're playing with it unbanned), Marshtomp, Gligar, Roselia, Tangela, Golbat, etc. while offense has Lairon (Rhydon is banned), Seadra, Machoke, Magmar, Electabuzz, Monferno, Piloswine, Shelgon, Dragonair, etc.
 
Blue Tornado: +2 Rhydon and P2 still outspeed Gabite if they run +Spd, so I don't see the point in running Scarf.

Scarfed Gabite outspeeds Kadabra, Haunter, Scarfed P2, Adamant +2 Rhydon and Scarfed Magneton, while still doing very very good damage. CB does more, of course, but at the cost of being easily revenge-killed.

All lead Golbat I've seen used Taunt first turn fearing Sleep Powder. I've never seen Lum Golbat.

I didn't say Roselia can't beat it -- I said it's not a guaranteed win, that's all. I can see why people would Taunt you turn 1, after all, HP Psychic is unexpected, but Golbat CAN win. It's a 50/50 chance, either BB on the HP Psychic or Taunt on the Sleep Powder, and both tactics can backfire. This is like Azelf vs Roserade, basically.

Even max/max+ Dusclops gets 2HKOd so good luck countering Rhydon with that.

I said "if you don't have sub on your rp Don", meaning you RP up while they switch to Dusc. You do a bit over half, they WoW you and Pain Split / switch / attack from there. This is why Substitute is such a great move.

Using Metang, with Leftovers and max Attack Adamant, I've failed to KO Magmar at ~%25 and Rhydon at ~%35 using BP. I'd have won 2 more matches if I had been running LO or CB. The lack of power makes a difference.

Again, I haven't used LO Metang yet, so I said before that all I'm saying is based off assumptions.
And DK, I see where you're coming from. It's easy to claim RP Don can barely find room to set up on paper, but actually, you'd be surprised at how easily it can be set-up. Switch in on any Chansey/Dusclops, choice-locked Pokemon like Magneton on T-Bolt, P2 on Tri Attack, Gabite on Ourage, and the list goes on. Daul Screens from the likes of Metang help immensely as well. In practice, RP Don is set up enough times per match to call a success. Of course, this is assuming you have 51 HP Substitutes, which should be standard on RP Don imo. A set of 188 HP / 68 Atk / 252 Spe Jolly outspeeds Timid Scarfed Magneton and Adamant Scarfed Gabite by one point, while still OHKOing the latter, 2HKOing Dusclops and OHKOing Rhydon after one layer of Spikes / two-three SR switchins.
 
Dragonair@ Choice Specs
Modest
252 Sp.Atk/252 HP/6 Spe
~Draco Meteor
~Thunderbolt
~Flamethrower
~Ice Beam

Dragonair@ Choice Band
Adamant
252 Attack/252 HP/6 Spe
~Extremespeed
~Outrage
~Waterfall
~Fire Blast

Dragonair@ Life Orb
Naughty
192 Atk/64 Sp.Atk/252 Speed
~Outrage
~Fire Blast
~Waterfall
~HP Grass

Dragonair@ Leftovers
Jolly
252 Atk/252 Speed/6 Hp
~Dragon Dance
~Outrage
~Waterfall
~Extremespeed

Dragonair@ Leftovers
Impish
252 Hp/252 Def/6 Sp.Def
~Light Screen
~Dragon Rage
~Rest
~Toxic

Waterfall+Outrage=unresisted in MC, while in OU it is resisted by many
Very very versatile
You are missing the best set, or atleast the set that really hurts stall; Rest/SleepTalk/DD/Outrage
 
IDK what you define as your set purplefingers, but i ran standard waterfall/EQ/SR/yawn marsh.

Also, i think P2 and rhydon are comparable to each other. P2 is special, while rhydon is physical, but once they get the +2 speed boost there really isn't much you can do to stop them. Oh, and once and for all, leave NFE out of this discussion.
 
IDK what you define as your set purplefingers, but i ran standard waterfall/EQ/SR/yawn marsh.

Also, i think P2 and rhydon are comparable to each other. P2 is special, while rhydon is physical, but once they get the +2 speed boost there really isn't much you can do to stop them. Oh, and once and for all, leave NFE out of this discussion.
Except they also have a problem. I mean, WishChansey continues to Wall P2 even after a download boost, and can kill back with Toxic. Meanwhile, Rhydon has that shit spD which means that Anything that can survive a hit WILL OHKO back with, really, any SE Special attack.

In other news, does anyone else find the amount of Golbat anti-leads hilarious? I mean, when I'm running an anti-anti-lead, there is a problem.
 
Alright, I have played a lot of middle cup matches over the past week or so, an I am convinced that Porygon2 is broken. I run a set of tri attack/ice beam/discharge/recover @ lo max hp/max spa and there is just no stopping it. It is bulky enough to only take ~50% from a scarf gabite outrage, so it can get in on so many things easily and just start plowing things down. And if it gets a SpA boost from download is what really pushes it over the edge. Just to give you an idea of how powerful +1 LO Tri Attack is, it's capable of 3HKO a completely dedicated special wall in Chansey. Not to mention that it can beat chansey with other sets if it tricks specs or scarf.
 
Im suprised this hasnt been mentioned yet, but how viable is a makeshift 4drag2mag team of Gabite, Bagon, Dragonair, Vibrava, Magneton and...some random poke like Rhydon
 

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