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Middle Cup Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Zystral
- Start date
breh
強いだね
I have not yet played in MC but I was thinking about the viability of SD teams. There are many pokemon that have excusive niches (Weepinbell has ome of the highest attack adn special attack stats, nuzleaf is the only dark type), not to mention many powerful fire types (Magmar and combusken, for example). The fact that in Sunny day, the only thing that can outspeed Nuzleaf is essentially scarfed haunter and up is ridiculous; everything on a SD team is blazingly fast and every one gets to abuse a base 180 (SD fire blast) or 120 (Solarbeam, which doesn't suck anymore) STAB attack, which is very powerful. I believe chansey falls to magamar's cross chop+FB, but I'm not too sure. Lastly, there is not a single pokemon with flash fire in the tier.
Otherwise, just to note, Kadabra doesn't learn focus blast.
Anyway which server are people battling on? I'm quite confused...
Otherwise, just to note, Kadabra doesn't learn focus blast.
Anyway which server are people battling on? I'm quite confused...
Is it a tier on there? or do people plan battles and just find eachother?
I assume people just plan, as making a ladder is a lot of work for DougJustDoug, especially on the CAP server.
I'm going to try out a sandstorm team, see how it fares. However, Clefairy is out due to a lack of stats.
breh
強いだね
I have a feeling this is going to go terrribly, with a lack of literally every pokemon that is good in sandstorm, not to mention no setters (no hippo means no SS)
breh
強いだね
It's always really funny when the old "Rhydon vs. Golem (or in this case graveller)" pops up somewhere.
Basically yeah it's Rhydon with explosion and sucker punch; that's about it.
Anyway, with the whopping two battles that I've had, I've found that golbat is a pretty good anti lead, with immunity to flinch, one of the fastest taunts in the game, 120 BP stab, decent attack, and u-turn
Sunny day is not that bad actually; my Scarf Combusken did like 60% to a Rhydon in the Sun.
Weepinbell is pretty useless though, lol
Nuzleaf is really cool actually; explosion gives it utility outside of sunny day as well.
I posted this in the Suspect topic in the social group, but I'll put it here too:
Chansey is not too broken. Monferno has been mentioned many times as a potential wall breaker, Rhydon (if allowed) or Graveller, Pupitar, or any number of Ground types can take a Thunder Wave, Lairon and Guts Machoke can take Toxic, and all of these can maim Chansey into oblivion.
Well,
I find Sunny Day actually somewhat viable. With a good amount of weather abusers, plus strong fire types coupled with a good choice of lead, as said by Breludicolo. A team consisting of two dedicated weather starters, Golbat and Chansey, coupled with two Chloro sweepers, Gloom and Weepinbell, some status support and scouting in the form of Skiploom, and a strong fire sweeper in the form of other Combusken or Monferno. It would be completely viable in my opinion.
I find Sunny Day actually somewhat viable. With a good amount of weather abusers, plus strong fire types coupled with a good choice of lead, as said by Breludicolo. A team consisting of two dedicated weather starters, Golbat and Chansey, coupled with two Chloro sweepers, Gloom and Weepinbell, some status support and scouting in the form of Skiploom, and a strong fire sweeper in the form of other Combusken or Monferno. It would be completely viable in my opinion.
A list of all Stealth Rock users in Middle Cup:
Clefairy
Jigglypuff
Graveler
Rhydon
Chansey
Piloswine
Pupitar
Marshtomp
Lairon
Metang
Grotle
Monferno
Prinplup
Gabite
Notice something about these Pokemon? They all tend to lose to Machoke. None of them resist STAB Dynamicpunch, and those that do tend to have low defenses. If Lead Machoke's popularity continues, Stealth Rock will mostly be kept in the mid-team instead of being used by leads.
Clefairy
Jigglypuff
Graveler
Rhydon
Chansey
Piloswine
Pupitar
Marshtomp
Lairon
Metang
Grotle
Monferno
Prinplup
Gabite
Notice something about these Pokemon? They all tend to lose to Machoke. None of them resist STAB Dynamicpunch, and those that do tend to have low defenses. If Lead Machoke's popularity continues, Stealth Rock will mostly be kept in the mid-team instead of being used by leads.
This is pure thoerymonning but:
Magmar @ Salac Berry
Jolly 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
-Belly Drum
-Substitute
-Fire Punch
-Mach Punch/Thunder Punch
Could be viable, as it will outspeed everything that's not scarfed, and OHKO the entire (?) Metagame.
EDIT: I'm also guessing SR won't be as prominent?
Magmar @ Salac Berry
Jolly 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
-Belly Drum
-Substitute
-Fire Punch
-Mach Punch/Thunder Punch
Could be viable, as it will outspeed everything that's not scarfed, and OHKO the entire (?) Metagame.
EDIT: I'm also guessing SR won't be as prominent?
SR is prominent enough to be considered, at least now.
Also, that set suffers from priority such as Monferno Mach Punch. Heck, I bet CB Metang BP KOs at 25% as well. It's a matter of getting the priority user in (or just using a lightning-fast scarfer such as Haunter / Electabuzz / Kadabra).
Also, that set suffers from priority such as Monferno Mach Punch. Heck, I bet CB Metang BP KOs at 25% as well. It's a matter of getting the priority user in (or just using a lightning-fast scarfer such as Haunter / Electabuzz / Kadabra).
But after a salac boost you'll outspeed/ohko them both. If you get the boosts without having a Sub broken, you've basically won.
Oh, sorry, I completely bypassed Mach Punch. It's interesting, then. But I'm not sure if they're legal together.. (Mach Punch and Belly Drum)
I do play a metagame similar to this one. A bunch of players from the GaryOak server do.
Except, the rules are quite different. First, it is played at level 100, it is called the NFE tier.
Midevolutions considered too strong for this tier (Rhydon, Pory2, chansey magmar and electabuzz to name a few are banned to let inferior NFEs (Marshtomp Togetic Ivysaur etc) shine) and also, Pokemons at their lower stage of evolutions are accepted (Yanma Meditite etc).
This tier is unofficial and quite messy if i say to myself, but ridiculously entertaining.
Have a nice evening.
Except, the rules are quite different. First, it is played at level 100, it is called the NFE tier.
Midevolutions considered too strong for this tier (Rhydon, Pory2, chansey magmar and electabuzz to name a few are banned to let inferior NFEs (Marshtomp Togetic Ivysaur etc) shine) and also, Pokemons at their lower stage of evolutions are accepted (Yanma Meditite etc).
This tier is unofficial and quite messy if i say to myself, but ridiculously entertaining.
Have a nice evening.
Maybe a strong team would look like:
Kadabra
Inner Focus
@Light Clay
-Psychic
-Taunt
-Light Screen
-Reflect
Psychic does 115.9% - 136.8% to 252 HP Machamp. Being able to blast that gorilla without the aid of a boosting move certainly makes Kadabra's situation here a lot better than the one Azelf faces in OU. Due to ridiculous speed for the tier, Kadabra might even be able to use modest. Monferno is the fastest SR user, and the Naive Ape comes no where near Modest Kadabra. With Inner Focus, Kadabra laughs at the Monkey's fake out, so unless Monferno is running Mach Punch as its priority, it has no chance. Taunt stops SR from slower users, and screens give Kadabra something to do.
Lairon
Rock Head
@Leftovers
-Head Smash
-Earthquake
-Substitute
-Stealth Rock
Awesome Edge-Quake coverage to be a threat after its used its decent resistances to set up SR. Essentially, you got to have something to stop those rampaging Gabites.
Seadra
Sniper
@Choice Specs
-Hydro Pump
-Ice Beam
-Surf
-Toxic / Hidden Power Electric
Seadra has no Swift Swim, so Sniper it is. Have you ever tried Specs Kingdra in OU, than you know the awesome power of such a set. Seadra has the same speed and special attack stats as Kingdra (95 sp.A, 85 speed)-- something I was not aware of. Albeit you lose STAB dragon attacks, but Hydro Pump and Surf provide more than enough awesome coverage. Without too many enemy water types to worry about (and enemy Seadra lacking the S.DEF to switch into this) Water/Ice Provides essentially flawless coverage. Toxic gives you filler to use should your enemy actually have a Sealeo or Poliwhirl. On an interesting note, Modest Sniper-Crit Hydro Pump does 85.2% - 100.3% to 0HP/252S.DEF Calm Chansey. Against Bold, you have more than a 50% chance to 1hko.
Poliwhirl (Or maybe go with the Magmar Belly Drummer instead)
@Salac Berry
-Belly Drum
-Substitute
-Waterfall
-Ice Punch
Speaking of Poliwhirl, if he actually did get a free turn he could probably capitalize well. With base 90 speed, it is blazing fast for the tier, and with Belly Drum and awesome Water/Ice attacking coverage, he could cause some serious ruckus-- especially if it gets screen support, or its potentialy counters get wrecked by Seadra. Kind of the "double dragon" effect. I also really think that Seadra would be insane, so this is a way to check it.
Gabite
@Choice Scarf
-Outrage
-Earthquake
-Stealth Rock
-Dragon Rush / Dragon Claw
Dragon / Ground has flawless coverage in the tier, Ground destroying every available steel type-- Lairon, Metang and Magneton. Therefore, Gabite has 2 extra slots to work with. Stealth Rock is here in case Lairon has difficulty setting it up, a serious danger considering its low special defense and 2 4x weaks. Gabites typing and speed can set up SR more reliably. Dragon Rush is useful early game when one does not yet want to get locked into Outrage. If the accuracy is a turn off, Dragon Claw is a possible alternative. Somewhat of a check against Electabuzz and Magmar as well.
Machoke
No Guard
@(so much potential shit)
-Dynamic Punch
-Payback
-Ice Punch
-Substitute/Bullet Punch
Just because it is awesome. Bullet Punch is extremely worth looking into, just because of the overall lack of good priority users in the tier. I also needed something to maul chansey . . .
tl:dr, do not mind me-- I just have another 2 and a half hours of hanging out at work with nothing to do. :/
-Kadabra 105
-Electabuzz 105
-Haunter 95
-Magmar 93
-Golbat 90
-Poliwhirl 90
-Vigoroth 90
And then out of those, the value of Vigoroth and Poliwhirl seems somewhat questionable . . . I would say 85 Speed would be atleast like OU's 100 speed mark, or maybe even better. The power of STAB Specs Hydro Pump / Surf is unquestionable I think. Water is the second best STAB, and while the dragons of Middle Cup are somewhat lacking in the raw offensive stats to abuse the lack of steel types, Seadra's 95 sp.ATK and Ice Beam is more than enough to rip shit up.
Well, again, theorymonning . . . theorymonning . . .
Kadabra
Inner Focus
@Light Clay
-Psychic
-Taunt
-Light Screen
-Reflect
Psychic does 115.9% - 136.8% to 252 HP Machamp. Being able to blast that gorilla without the aid of a boosting move certainly makes Kadabra's situation here a lot better than the one Azelf faces in OU. Due to ridiculous speed for the tier, Kadabra might even be able to use modest. Monferno is the fastest SR user, and the Naive Ape comes no where near Modest Kadabra. With Inner Focus, Kadabra laughs at the Monkey's fake out, so unless Monferno is running Mach Punch as its priority, it has no chance. Taunt stops SR from slower users, and screens give Kadabra something to do.
Lairon
Rock Head
@Leftovers
-Head Smash
-Earthquake
-Substitute
-Stealth Rock
Awesome Edge-Quake coverage to be a threat after its used its decent resistances to set up SR. Essentially, you got to have something to stop those rampaging Gabites.
Seadra
Sniper
@Choice Specs
-Hydro Pump
-Ice Beam
-Surf
-Toxic / Hidden Power Electric
Seadra has no Swift Swim, so Sniper it is. Have you ever tried Specs Kingdra in OU, than you know the awesome power of such a set. Seadra has the same speed and special attack stats as Kingdra (95 sp.A, 85 speed)-- something I was not aware of. Albeit you lose STAB dragon attacks, but Hydro Pump and Surf provide more than enough awesome coverage. Without too many enemy water types to worry about (and enemy Seadra lacking the S.DEF to switch into this) Water/Ice Provides essentially flawless coverage. Toxic gives you filler to use should your enemy actually have a Sealeo or Poliwhirl. On an interesting note, Modest Sniper-Crit Hydro Pump does 85.2% - 100.3% to 0HP/252S.DEF Calm Chansey. Against Bold, you have more than a 50% chance to 1hko.
Poliwhirl (Or maybe go with the Magmar Belly Drummer instead)
@Salac Berry
-Belly Drum
-Substitute
-Waterfall
-Ice Punch
Speaking of Poliwhirl, if he actually did get a free turn he could probably capitalize well. With base 90 speed, it is blazing fast for the tier, and with Belly Drum and awesome Water/Ice attacking coverage, he could cause some serious ruckus-- especially if it gets screen support, or its potentialy counters get wrecked by Seadra. Kind of the "double dragon" effect. I also really think that Seadra would be insane, so this is a way to check it.
Gabite
@Choice Scarf
-Outrage
-Earthquake
-Stealth Rock
-Dragon Rush / Dragon Claw
Dragon / Ground has flawless coverage in the tier, Ground destroying every available steel type-- Lairon, Metang and Magneton. Therefore, Gabite has 2 extra slots to work with. Stealth Rock is here in case Lairon has difficulty setting it up, a serious danger considering its low special defense and 2 4x weaks. Gabites typing and speed can set up SR more reliably. Dragon Rush is useful early game when one does not yet want to get locked into Outrage. If the accuracy is a turn off, Dragon Claw is a possible alternative. Somewhat of a check against Electabuzz and Magmar as well.
Machoke
No Guard
@(so much potential shit)
-Dynamic Punch
-Payback
-Ice Punch
-Substitute/Bullet Punch
Just because it is awesome. Bullet Punch is extremely worth looking into, just because of the overall lack of good priority users in the tier. I also needed something to maul chansey . . .
tl:dr, do not mind me-- I just have another 2 and a half hours of hanging out at work with nothing to do. :/
I run Specs Sniper in OU, and 85 speed gets you farther than you would expect. How is it unimpressive? The only Middle Cup pokemon who outrun Seadra are (from the top):
-Kadabra 105
-Electabuzz 105
-Haunter 95
-Magmar 93
-Golbat 90
-Poliwhirl 90
-Vigoroth 90
And then out of those, the value of Vigoroth and Poliwhirl seems somewhat questionable . . . I would say 85 Speed would be atleast like OU's 100 speed mark, or maybe even better. The power of STAB Specs Hydro Pump / Surf is unquestionable I think. Water is the second best STAB, and while the dragons of Middle Cup are somewhat lacking in the raw offensive stats to abuse the lack of steel types, Seadra's 95 sp.ATK and Ice Beam is more than enough to rip shit up.
Well, again, theorymonning . . . theorymonning . . .
Speaking of leads, Roselia seems like a good dedicated TS lead to me. Too bad Spikes and Sleep Powder is illegal together...
Roselia @ Focus Sash
~ Toxic Spikes
~ Sleep Powder
~ Leaf Storm/Protect
~ HP Psychic
The goal of the set is simple: Take a hit, sleep something and lay Toxic Spikes down. Toxic Spikes is actually really valuable in this metagame since the most dangerous sweepers in the tier are grounded (Agility P2, Gabite, Rhydon). HP Psychic + Leaf Storm covers most leads but without Protect Monferno runs over you.
EDIT:
Metang @ Choice Band/Life Orb
~ Pursuit
~ Bullet Punch
~ Ice Punch
~ Flash Cannon/Meteor Mash/Earthquake/Explosion
Makes Gabite think twice before blindly Outraging. Also hard counters Kadabra and Haunter.
Flash Cannon has a chance to OHKO Rhydon with 4 SpA EVs accounting in SR, while Meteor Mash 2HKOs only. Earthquake repels opposing Metang, Lairon and Magneton. Explosion is another option.
Roselia @ Focus Sash
~ Toxic Spikes
~ Sleep Powder
~ Leaf Storm/Protect
~ HP Psychic
The goal of the set is simple: Take a hit, sleep something and lay Toxic Spikes down. Toxic Spikes is actually really valuable in this metagame since the most dangerous sweepers in the tier are grounded (Agility P2, Gabite, Rhydon). HP Psychic + Leaf Storm covers most leads but without Protect Monferno runs over you.
EDIT:
Metang @ Choice Band/Life Orb
~ Pursuit
~ Bullet Punch
~ Ice Punch
~ Flash Cannon/Meteor Mash/Earthquake/Explosion
Makes Gabite think twice before blindly Outraging. Also hard counters Kadabra and Haunter.
Flash Cannon has a chance to OHKO Rhydon with 4 SpA EVs accounting in SR, while Meteor Mash 2HKOs only. Earthquake repels opposing Metang, Lairon and Magneton. Explosion is another option.
Weepinbell is not mediorce; it has Sucker Punch, something Nuzleaf lacks, as well as Base 95 Attack and Sleep Powder. Swords Dance is a really viable set with these assets.
Also, I agree that Seadra is definitely good. The only somewhat common Water-type I've seen used is Marshtomp, which doesn't even resist Water, and that leaves the only real resists (That could actually take a hit) to be bulky Grass-types such as Bayleaf and Ivysaur, along with maybe Shelgon/Dragonair. And those hate Ice Beam.
Metang and Kadabra are definitely the best DS users; one utilizes Speed while the other utilizes Explosion.
Also, Graveler is not worth using, end of topic. It's stats just ruin any comparison to Rhydon it could have been able to afford.
A little input.
Also, I agree that Seadra is definitely good. The only somewhat common Water-type I've seen used is Marshtomp, which doesn't even resist Water, and that leaves the only real resists (That could actually take a hit) to be bulky Grass-types such as Bayleaf and Ivysaur, along with maybe Shelgon/Dragonair. And those hate Ice Beam.
Metang and Kadabra are definitely the best DS users; one utilizes Speed while the other utilizes Explosion.
Also, Graveler is not worth using, end of topic. It's stats just ruin any comparison to Rhydon it could have been able to afford.
A little input.
BurningMan
fueled by beer
Anybody tested Croconaw? it gets DD/SD and Aqua Jet.
and physical water could be pretty strong since there are almost no usable waters outside of poliwhirl and seadra and grass types are even rarer.
I think a set similar to the DD/SD sets of feraligatr could be pretty awesome with the right support.
and physical water could be pretty strong since there are almost no usable waters outside of poliwhirl and seadra and grass types are even rarer.
I think a set similar to the DD/SD sets of feraligatr could be pretty awesome with the right support.
Belly Drum + Mach Punch is illegal on Magmar.