Ladder Mix and Mega

thesecondbest

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Not that it really matters, but wouldn't it be better to ban the move electrify and allow heliolisk to mega evolve than what we have now?
EDIT: it's a tradeoff between allowing any heliolisk set besides the one uncompetitive one, and allowing smeargle to use electrify, which adds nothing to the metagame besides the uncompetitive part. If heliolisk gets banned, then you have the same problem with sceptitite smeargle. banning electrify adds more to the metagame than banning heliolisk.
 
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InfernapeTropius11

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
How_Suspicious said:
Awesome, it's been months since I played this very cool metal.

For those of us who are rusty, and new players, would it be possible for you vets to share some sample teams, to give a taste of what the meta is like? It's really hard to get an idea of how a well-played MnM game unfolds just from the analysis and opinions here.
Click to expand...
You can find sample teams for Mix and Mega here, here, and here. If you want more recent ones, people will probably start posting teams that are better suited to the current meta within a week or so.
Kingofthesun said:
also can we strait-up make this an official other meta? it's more popular than BH!
Click to expand...
Mix and Mega is getting a rotational ladder in gen 7, which you can read more about in this thread.
 
Imperator Romanum

Imperator Romanum

Song only choosen to confuse

Suspect 3.1 Fairytale
tumblr_ni92kxJrmX1tvr41fo1_1280.png 250px-649Genesect.png

Deoxys-S and Genesect are being suspected. Both of them were initially quick-banned, assumed to be far too broken. Both of them have access to Extreme speed which is certainly an important feature. Deoxys-S is very capable of quickly stacking multiple layers versus un-prepared teams but struggles against certain leads, such as Entei. Genesect is powerful with Download and Espeed, but struggles with horrible typing offensively and defensively after Mega Evolving. It will be interesting to see how you guys handle these new threats, along with the others. Cheers!

Here's how you vote,

  • First of all you need to have SuspectingDeoxysGenesect in your name (SDG). I will only allow you to vote if you have SDG in your team!
  • Secondly you need to have 25 or less battles on a account with 75 GXE
  • Third and most importantly, I want you to specify with atleast 6 lines why you voted the way you did.
Examples can be seen below where people have gone 10-0 with 75 GXE with SDG in their name, that's the easiest way to reach reqs. For Genesect and Deoxys-S to be unbanned 60% of the votes need to vote on unbanning them!


Then vote
Ban/Do not ban Genesect
Ban/Do not ban Deoxys-S

Suspect ends on the fifth!
 
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InvisibleWater

InvisibleWater

I made some sets for both Genesect and Deoxys, in case anyone wants them.

Genesect @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Bug Buzz
- Flash Cannon
- Thunder
- Flamethrower / Blizzard

Genesect @ Blue Orb
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash / Naive Nature
- X-Scissor
- Iron Head
- Thunder
- Hidden Power Ground / Ice Beam / Shift Gear

Genesect @ Altarianite / Pinsirite
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shift Gear / X-Scissor / U-Turn
- Extreme Speed
- Return / X-Scissor / U-Turn
- Blaze Kick

Genesect @ Scizorite
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shift Gear
- Bug Bite
- Magnet Bomb / Iron Head
- Blaze Kick


Deoxys-Speed @ Sablenite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast / Ice Beam / Shadow Ball
- Recover

Deoxys-Speed @ Banettite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Zen Headbutt
- Ice Punch / Magic Coat

Deoxys-Speed @ Absolite / Pidgeotite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Ice Beam / Hidden Power Ground / Shadow Ball
 
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Quantum Tesseract

Quantum Tesseract

Lazy Fuck
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Dedicated Tournament Host
upload_2016-9-1_18-32-5.png

Vote: Ban Genesect, Unban Deoxys
Why Genesect is Broken:
Here's what are probably the two standard sets:
Genesect @ Altarianite/Pinsirite
Ability: Download
EVs: 72 Atk / 252 SpA / 184 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Techno Blast
- Extreme Speed
- Thunderbolt
- Flamethrower

Genesect @ Pinsirite/Altarianite
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 Atk / 72 SpA / 184 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Techno Blast
- Extreme Speed
- Shift Gear
- Blaze Kick/Thunderbolt

What switches into set 1 (only things that are ranked alrady)
Heatran (needs spd to be reliable against pinsirite) +1 252 SpA Aerilate (Pinsirite) Genesect Techno Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (cameruptite) Heatran: 146-172 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Blissey (Sablenite only, as +1 252 SpA Pixelate (Altarianite) Genesect Techno Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD (slowbronite) Blissey: 286-337 (43.8 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Victini (Altarianite only)


What switches into set 2
Heatran
Skarmory (unless thunderbolt)
Hippowdon
Primal groudon
Slowbronite Blissey

Do you see the similarities? thats an overlap of one, so if you want to wall genesect you need to run heatran. However, heatran has no recovery, so if it gets worn down its GG unless you have offensive pressure. Offensive pressure isn't enough, though: Genesect is fast, can get faster, and has extreme speed.

TL;DR: Beating Genesect requires constant and major offensive pressure or heatran, and even then its still a great revenger. Genesect is everything Dragonite wishes it was.

Furthermore, now that I use it its even better than that. I have the specially offensive altarianite set, ready to destroy with techno blast, and its still a really good atespeeder. They typing barely matters, and it can be nice to have a fighting resist. It just destroys people, and its flaws arent enough.



Deoxys-s, meanwhile, is extraordinarily mediocre. As an -ate its only niche is being faster than the other abusers, and having decent coverage. While its definitally a nice niche (lol skarm just dies to tbolt), it's more of an a/a+ threat rather than a broken one. I wouldn't be super averse to a ban, but it seems managable
 
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Shavedbear

Shavedbear


Ban Genesect, Unban Deoxys-S
The sets for Genesect that Tesseract mentions above are pretty much the main 2 that I've seen on ladder and after having to restart my Req alt twice because I wanted that sexy 10-0, I really think this evil bug deserves a ban. While it loses its awesome Steel typing with the -ate sets, the power that Download brings to either set is so powerful that I occasionally found myself switching around if I didnt get the Sp. Attack boost (I was running the special set). Even post-mega Genesect is insanely fast and you really have no way of safely coming in before you know the set without a full health Heatran. Pretty much without heatran on your team, you have to stay ahead to keep this monster from coming in and killing half your team. God forbid you dont have a dedicated physical wall and you let the physical set get up a Shift Gear, its GG unless you have something bulky who can Paralyze it and you pray for luck.

On the other hand, Deoxys-S as a lead is mediocre at best and, in my opinion, thoroughly outclassed by Aerodactyl @ Gyaradosite. I tried out some setup sets with Nasty Plot but you can't hope for more than 1 kill if the opponent has an -ate Espeed user remotely healthy, as non-invested Espeed does booty damage. I think Deoxys-S will have a home as a fast revenge killer late-game after you've eliminated the -atespeed users. The one thing I really enjoyed about using Deo-S was running Absolite as a lead-bait. Everyone sees Deoxys come out first and assumes its Mold Breaker, then you Bounce back a Taunt or SR and destroy their lead (Granted this was low ladder)
 

Stocke


(not sure why the Reset W/L link is purple, I didn't reset my W/L on this alt)
Ban Genesect, Unban Deoxys-S

In terms of stats and movepool Genesect is already one of the best -atespeeders out there thanks to its access to the excellent boosting move Shift Gear and a decent array of good coverage moves (most special, albeit, but it has a few decent physical coverage moves like Blaze Kick). The thing that I think sets Genesect firmly into the category of "broken," however, is its amazing pre-Mega ability of Download, which not only has the effect of potentially boosting its already devastating -ate Extreme Speeds but also allows it to go mixed easily with its access to the extremely powerful Techno Blast (which is Boomburst-lite, essentially) and a wide array of special coverage moves, most notably Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, and Bug Buzz. This, as Quantum Tesseract mentioned, drastically limits its total of viable switch-ins; the only thing that can switch into both physical- and special-oriented sets easily is Heatran, and even then it doesn't have reliable recovery so it can only switch in so many times. Since Genesect is frail and has a generally bad defensive typing if it wants to get STAB -ate, it's easier to deal with offensively, but even then not many things can reliably revenge-kill Genesect after one or multiple Shift Gears because at that point other non-boosted Extreme Speed users lose their ability to outprioritize Genesect's Extreme Speeds (if they even could in the first place, Zygarde is only base 95 Speed and Entei is Adamant-locked so it depends on how much Speed investment and what Mega Stone Gene is running) so constant offensive pressure (preferably from Entei as it's resistant to Fairy and Altarianite seems preferable to Pinsirite on Genesect) is required to prevent it from setting up. Perhaps an unrealistic amount of offensive pressure, for that matter.

While I highly doubt I'm the most informed person to talk about Deoxys-S as I've only used the Ampharosite hazard lead set myself and I'm not sure I've seen any of the other sets while laddering yet, thus far I can say that I don't think it's broken. The lead set, while good at what it does, is rather predictable and easily taken advantage of by Altarianite Extreme Speeders. The other sets I've heard about seem good, but since all of Deoxys-S' stats other than Speed are rather mediocre it doesn't seem like it's broken. Maybe Pidgeotite... but Deoxys doesn't really have that many moves to make use of No Guard so it's probably better used on something like Keldeo (really good btw) or Gengar.

on an unrelated note I might just stick with this alt for awhile because I'm really digging this purple color
 
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Hourai

Hourai


Ban Genesect; Unban Deoxys-Speed
Genesect is simply too powerful for Mix and Mega with Altarianite. It can 2HKO Slowbronite Blissey, one of the single most bulky things in the tier with Pixilated ESpeed if it gets Attack boost from Download and uses Shift Gear twice, and, if you need to sack it, OHKO Blissey with Explosion before even setting up. It doesn't even matter to it that you get stuck with a poor defensive typing after Mega Evolving, due to how hard it hits As for Deoxys-S, its only real niche if you don't want to run a Mold Breaker hazard setter is otuspeeding every other -ate abuser unboosted, and it can only hit harder than them with Altarianite, but most of the time you're better off running Arcanine with Altarianite. Its Ampharosite hazard setter set has a crippling weakness to Taunt. However, its predictability doesn't stop it from being an A+ tier threat under the right circumstances.

Tl;Dr Genesect is broken and Deo-S is a solid choice but has too few options to be broken. Take this from someone who used both on their team in the suspect.
 
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InfernapeTropius11

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
reqs

imma quote this--my opinion has not changed
InfernapeTropius11 said:
The more i think about it actually, the more i'm against a genesect unban. It gets shift gear for boosting if you want that, download pre-mega, techno blast for physical walls, and coverage out the ass. 4 attacks is prob the best set, and it gets explosion to boot.
PDon bothering you?
184 SpA Aerilate Genesect Techno Blast vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Primal Groudon: 216-255 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
skarm?
184 SpA Genesect Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 306-360 (91.6 - 107.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
ferro?
184 SpA Aerilate Pinsirite Genesect Techno Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Blue Orb Ferrothorn: 165-195 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
raikou?
+1 72 Atk Pinsirite Aerilate Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Red Orb Raikou: 131-154 (40.8 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

So basically Genesect can take out classic -ate counters with ease, and its few counters (Arceus-Rock/Steel, Venusaurite Zapdos, Slowbronite Blissey) and hard checks (Latiasite Heatran) are mostly rare, do barely anything else, or get decimated by Explosion, opening the way for other things to sweep. It would make things very hard for balance as now they need two dedicated ate counters--one for Gene, one for the other ates, in addition to being an excellent revenge killer and decent wallbreaker. Here's the set I was calcing with btw:

Genesect @ Pinsirite
Ability: Download
EVs: 72 Atk / 184 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Techno Blast
- Thunder
- Filler (but Explosion seems like a great option)

I'm not sure if I made this very clear but basically what I'm saying is mons you would normally use anyway to check Genesect (standard ate counters+PDon+Red Orb Raikou) don't work as they're 2hkod, basically requiring a completely different slot dedicated to beating Gene. And then that mon is crippled by Explosion.

e: also wtf chrfal we already decided klinklang was getting a massive boost up to A rank, we had that discussion ages ago and that's the conclusion we reached.
Click to expand...
ban genesect

as for deos, ive not been too impressed so far. its definitely a good mon, but it is by no means op. ive personally been using a suicide lead on HO (alongside genesect and based hitmonlee) using ampharosite, which allows it to do decent damage with psychic, and it still outspeeds the entire om and can taunt/set hazards, although it does die rather easily (weav/altarianite users/offensive mons that resist psychic are the best ways to ko it with limited hazards set up). ive seen a couple people using offensive versions but honestly the power is underwhelming and its still easily revenge killed by various priority. overall its a decent enough mon that will turn out to be viable and good on many teams, but i think it adds more to the meta than it subtracts from it. therefore unless i see something that changes my mind im gonna vote unban deoxys speed
 

Lemon Ginger

Ban Genesect
It's basically Howl Entei, only you don't have to click howl. I didn't give the special sets a try, but I don't see how they could be as good as the strongest stone given ate-speed. I actually ran a pinsirite set with U-turn, E-Speed, (Random Coverage), Shift Gear, and it plundered pretty much every playstyle. While it does have pretty junk typing, it doesn't really matter, since a shift gear and download boost is usually gg.

Unban Deoxys-S
I'm kind of on the fence here. It is guaranteed hazards and can actually hit pretty hard, but I think any of its offensive sets are just outclassed by e-speeders (unless you want a REALLY fast pixi-speed). Maybe it could have a place on stall as a weird fast sablenite user, since it gets recover would still be crazy fast. Probably something I'll try.

Edit: These don't technically count since it doesn't say SDG. Consider as you will.
upload_2016-9-2_3-31-2.png
 

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Imperator Romanum

Imperator Romanum

Hot dog pizza said:
Ban Genesect
It's basically Howl Entei, only you don't have to click howl. I didn't give the special sets a try, but I don't see how they could be as good as the strongest stone given ate-speed. I actually ran a pinsirite set with U-turn, E-Speed, (Random Coverage), Shift Gear, and it plundered pretty much every playstyle. While it does have pretty junk typing, it doesn't really matter, since a shift gear and download boost is usually gg.

Unban Deoxys-S
I'm kind of on the fence here. It is guaranteed hazards and can actually hit pretty hard, but I think any of its offensive sets are just outclassed by e-speeders (unless you want a REALLY fast pixi-speed). Maybe it could have a place on stall as a weird fast sablenite user, since it gets recover would still be crazy fast. Probably something I'll try.

Edit: These don't technically count since it doesn't say SDG. Consider as you will.
View attachment 68560
Click to expand...
Go ladder with SDG lmao.

Perhaps those who laddered could give some input on the other unbans. Landorus-I, Aegi, Greninja and Smeargle? Personally I've been enjoying Ho-oh balance a ton. Ho-oh has been great for me with so many steel types running around. a rise to A?
 
Schpoonman

Schpoonman

The only Pokemon among these I've seen so far was an Aggronite Aegislash. It wasn't really a threat, at all. Mono-Steel is decent until you realize that now you're vulnerable to Fighting-type attacks. King's Shield mitigates that at times, but other times you just get ruined. Without Stance Change Aegislash struggles to deal damage, so there's no issue of it switching between breaking and walling that made it such a problem in OU. In theory Landorus and Greninja will be very far from broken. Landorus is at its most powerful with a Life Orb (Cameruptite is close, but then you're slower AND weaker, if bulkier. Maybe Rock Polish would be a decent cleaner without Atespeed), so it can't break like it could in OU and reap the benefits of MnM. Greninja is also insanely frail, and with Pixispeed on every other team (if not literally every team) and how frail it is it's not breaking the metagame.

I might ladder for reqs later, but as it stands if we're keeping Entei and Zygarde (or just Atespeed in general) then Genesect is no more broken than those two. I spoke in the OM chat about the difference between the three and the consensus was that Thunder/Thunderbolt broke it, but if you DON'T run it you auto-lose to Blue Orb Skarmory, so coverage is being abandoned somewhere. Again, Atespeed totally breaks it, but if that's how the metagame is going to be then I don't see any reason to boot it. At least Genesect gives you an extra option for a catch-all revenge killer (or you could be an asshole and run all three).

Deo-S is actually balanced, it doesn't hit that hard and doesn't have the staying power that many other Pokemon do. The hazard lead with Ampharosite (Taunt/Rocks/Spikes/Psychic or Protect depending on how much you hate Weavile) has by far been the best-performing for me, there's a shocking lack of Rapid Spin and Defog on the (lower) ladder, but if/when the metagame catches up with that Deoxys-S will be a mediocre choice all around.
 
happymaverick

happymaverick

"If a Pokémon with multiple Formes that it can change between mid-battle Mega Evolves, it is locked into a Mega based on that Forme. (ie: Meloetta)"
This is false advertising...
 
eviolite goomy

eviolite goomy

Undecided Genesect
From what I've seen so far, it's not obviously broken and I've managed to play around it pretty well, since download only works once and it loses its valuable steel typing after mega evolving. On the other hand, I do sort of agree with all of the points made in favor of banning genesect above and I don't feel like writing six lines about something I don't even have a strong opinion on.

Undecided Deoxys-s
Most people have written off deoxys-s as either a hazard setter or just too weak. I've been running the following set with great success.

Deoxys-Speed @ Pinsirite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Double-Edge
- Superpower
- Thunder

Generally it did it's job as a revenge killer as well as any entei, except it's more unpredictable. Because of its ridiculous speed it's able to run adamant and still outspeed and pick off any other weakened espeeders. It can safely outspeed any non e-speeder and pick up a bunch of unexpected KOs with double edge or return.

pinsirite/altarianite noivern
252+ Atk Aerilate Deoxys-S Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Noivern: 271-321 (87.1 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Aerilate Deoxys-S Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Groudon: 154-183 (38.2 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 162-192 (41.9 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Deoxys-S Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 194-230 (58 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Basically no one sees this coming since the hazard lead along with some other sets are really decent too. But then again none of its sets (including this one) are super impressive, so I'm undecided. Just saying deoxys-s is slightly better than everyone thinks it is.



All in all I'm not casting any votes and only showing off my reqs lel
 
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