I'm fine with this having an OU set, but in the set name, mention OU in it. For example: "OU Staller" or something. I also don't want it saying "Toxic Staller" when Toxic is merely a slashed move on the set. This needs GP checks.
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Moltres (OU Analysis)
- Thread starter MetaNite
- Start date
If you were to place this on a stall team, your main competition for a teamslot would not be Heatran or Zapdos, but Gyarados, who has superior typing and ability, and isn't as vulnerable to SR. Gyarados can perform many of the same tasks as Moltres while also checking the deadly Crocune, phazing it out until it's the last Pokemon. I think you need to justify why this set should be used over Gyarados. The main reason I can think of is that you aren't setup fodder for Skarm/Forry.
@ the Zapdos over Moltres discussion.
Fire has much better synergy with Toxic that electric. The two types immune to Poison are Steel and Poison. All bar a select few pokemon immune to poison are able to resist fire type attacks. Zapdos' thunderbolt doesn't have that claim on its side.
It would also be a good idea to have a special note for Vaporeon. Wish passers are especially helpful to Toxic Stalling Moltres, It also gets to switch inb easily with Moltres thanks to Water Absorb and can help toxic stalling by alternating Wish coand Protect. As well as this it is one of the best Heatran and Suicune counters around being able to switch in to most of Heatran's attacks bar explosion as well as completely stopping crocune who sets up on all moltres. Seeing as toxic Stall Moltres will probably be used most on teams with a stalling mentality.
Fire has much better synergy with Toxic that electric. The two types immune to Poison are Steel and Poison. All bar a select few pokemon immune to poison are able to resist fire type attacks. Zapdos' thunderbolt doesn't have that claim on its side.
It would also be a good idea to have a special note for Vaporeon. Wish passers are especially helpful to Toxic Stalling Moltres, It also gets to switch inb easily with Moltres thanks to Water Absorb and can help toxic stalling by alternating Wish coand Protect. As well as this it is one of the best Heatran and Suicune counters around being able to switch in to most of Heatran's attacks bar explosion as well as completely stopping crocune who sets up on all moltres. Seeing as toxic Stall Moltres will probably be used most on teams with a stalling mentality.
Sorry, the idea here was either you yourself are using Toxic or you have Toxic Spikes but this can be changed easily. Thanks. I shall also add Vaporeon as a teammate. Grammar Police, come hither!
"An Adamant Swords Danced Life Orb Lucario Close Combat will only 2HKO, so if the foe doesn't have Stone Edge, Moltres makes a good counter to Lucario as well."
Um, what? A +2 Life Orb Adamant Extremespeed or Close Combat OHKOs Moltres after Stealth Rock. (Moltres sometimes escapes the OHKO by a +2 Extremespeed).
So yeah, delete the sentence as it makes no sense.
Edit: @jc104: Ya, I suppose you could do that, but you need to suggest a secondary check to Lucario in case stealth rock is still on the field. How about Choice Scarf Jirachi, who has good synergy with Moltres?
Um, what? A +2 Life Orb Adamant Extremespeed or Close Combat OHKOs Moltres after Stealth Rock. (Moltres sometimes escapes the OHKO by a +2 Extremespeed).
So yeah, delete the sentence as it makes no sense.
Edit: @jc104: Ya, I suppose you could do that, but you need to suggest a secondary check to Lucario in case stealth rock is still on the field. How about Choice Scarf Jirachi, who has good synergy with Moltres?
Just one small nitpick I noticed in additional comments:
Also, wouldn't the usual "SubRoost" be a more appropriate name for the set? The other Sub + Roost Pressure stallers use that name on their analysis (eg. Zapdos, Articuno, Aerodactyl) so it might be better for consistency.
It sounds more of a testament to how well it can take hits.. Lucario doesn't threaten Moltres so it's kinda unecessary to mention a way to handle him. Scarfrachi's synergy with Moltres isn't that great either since it doesn't threaten many of its counters and is SR setup-bait for alot of pokes.
Also, wouldn't the usual "SubRoost" be a more appropriate name for the set? The other Sub + Roost Pressure stallers use that name on their analysis (eg. Zapdos, Articuno, Aerodactyl) so it might be better for consistency.
It sounds more of a testament to how well it can take hits.. Lucario doesn't threaten Moltres so it's kinda unecessary to mention a way to handle him. Scarfrachi's synergy with Moltres isn't that great either since it doesn't threaten many of its counters and is SR setup-bait for alot of pokes.
How does it counter infernape when its physically based mixape set runs stone edge as its primary option which will deal alot of damage and will ohko with stealth rock and deals over 50% to moltres meaning it cannot just stall with roost and cannot do much back besides poison or roar it away as infernape resists flamethrower in fact I would argue that Infernape with stone edge actually checks this moltres so you may want to say infernape lacking stone edge
I apologize. I did not realize that the physical set had become so popular (Stone Edge is still only slashed). I shall alter that to say specially based MixApe. Furthermore, it is assumed that if you are using Moltres, you have a Rapid Spinner on your team and it has done its job before counter something like Infernape or Lucario. Thank you all for the grammar checks! Still need one more!
EDIT: 18.5% of Infernape run Stone Edge.
EDIT2: I'm also looking into a Lead set again after chatting with a user on irc. And thank you, comatthew6, for that insightful discovery.
EDIT: 18.5% of Infernape run Stone Edge.
EDIT2: I'm also looking into a Lead set again after chatting with a user on irc. And thank you, comatthew6, for that insightful discovery.
Heatran can't be poisoned by toxic.
But Heatran can't do much back to Moltres either, and will eventually be PP stalled out.
Alright thanks for clearing that up but anyways I only meant infernape with stone edge like you can counter pretty much any infernape as long as it is without stone edge so you can counter the physical ape as long as it doesnt have stone edge not just nasty plot ape. Good set.
Just a general clarification:
Stalling Moltres always beats Heatran unless Heatran has Explosion or a Life Orbed Hidden Power Electric (which is odd in OU, but here's the calc: 59.5% - 70.5%) and Moltres isn't behind a Substitute. Even if Moltres is successfully out of the Substitute, Moltres can continue to Roost damage off, but beware of Life Orb Explosion. Also, Life Orbed variants sometimes run Taunt, which is completely rare, but Moltres has to watch out nonetheless.
If Heatran runs its usual Hidden Power, it can't really do any significant damage to Moltres. In addition, according to the June 2010 statistics, HP Grass is the most employed Hidden Power that Heatran uses, Ice and Electric barely used (HP Grass-22.9). Assuming a Heatran actually does try to stay in on a Staller Moltres and beat it:
I wouldn't stay in on a Heatran, but this is assuming you're gutsy enough to stay in at full health (Roost). Which I highly discourage.
In addition, according to the June 2010 statistics, the chances of Heatran running the following items are situational:
| Heatran | Item | Choice Scarf | 37.8 |
| Heatran | Item | Leftovers | 24.7 |
| Heatran | Item | Shuca Berry | 17.3 |
| Heatran | Item | Life Orb | 11.9 |
As you guys can see, Life Orb Heatran isn't quite snuff up to the standards, and will run basically sets that don't hurt Moltres significantly. Moltres stalls out Fire Blast quite nicely, and won't get hit significantly by Heatran's typical Hidden Powers (Grass for the ever common Swampert, and Ice for unsuspecting Dragons). If Heatran runs a Life Orb, there's a lot of problems in hand for him.
The problem is breaking the substitute, though. And the fact that this is quite situational and a smart opponent will bring in a check to Moltres.
Stalling Moltres always beats Heatran unless Heatran has Explosion or a Life Orbed Hidden Power Electric (which is odd in OU, but here's the calc: 59.5% - 70.5%) and Moltres isn't behind a Substitute. Even if Moltres is successfully out of the Substitute, Moltres can continue to Roost damage off, but beware of Life Orb Explosion. Also, Life Orbed variants sometimes run Taunt, which is completely rare, but Moltres has to watch out nonetheless.
If Heatran runs its usual Hidden Power, it can't really do any significant damage to Moltres. In addition, according to the June 2010 statistics, HP Grass is the most employed Hidden Power that Heatran uses, Ice and Electric barely used (HP Grass-22.9). Assuming a Heatran actually does try to stay in on a Staller Moltres and beat it:
- Timid Life Orb Heatran w/252 SpA using HP Ice: 29.8% - 35%
- Timid Non-Life Orb Heatran w/252 SpA using Hp Ice: 23% - 27.2%
- Timid Life Orb Heatran w/252 SpA using HP Electric: 59.5% - 70.5%
- Timid Non-Life Orb Heatran w/252 SpA using HP Electric: 46% - 54.3%
- Timid Life Orb Heatran w/252 SpA using Fire Blast: 38.1% - 44.9%
- Timid Non-Life Orb Heatran w/252 SpA using Fire Blast: 29.2% - 34.5%
I wouldn't stay in on a Heatran, but this is assuming you're gutsy enough to stay in at full health (Roost). Which I highly discourage.
- Naive Life Orb Heatran w/4 Atk using Explosion: 98.7% - 116.2%
- Naive Non-Life Orb Heatran w/4 Atk using Explosion: 76% - 89.6%
- Timid Non-Life Orb Heatran w/4 Atk using Esplosion: 68.1% - 80.4%
In addition, according to the June 2010 statistics, the chances of Heatran running the following items are situational:
| Heatran | Item | Choice Scarf | 37.8 |
| Heatran | Item | Leftovers | 24.7 |
| Heatran | Item | Shuca Berry | 17.3 |
| Heatran | Item | Life Orb | 11.9 |
As you guys can see, Life Orb Heatran isn't quite snuff up to the standards, and will run basically sets that don't hurt Moltres significantly. Moltres stalls out Fire Blast quite nicely, and won't get hit significantly by Heatran's typical Hidden Powers (Grass for the ever common Swampert, and Ice for unsuspecting Dragons). If Heatran runs a Life Orb, there's a lot of problems in hand for him.
The problem is breaking the substitute, though. And the fact that this is quite situational and a smart opponent will bring in a check to Moltres.
Just a quick grammar thing that stuck out for me
"Roost recovers your HP in a pinch, and removes Moltres' Electric-type weakness, as well as giving Moltres a resistance to Ice-type attacks."
Not sure what it was originally but "giving" is incorrect. The verb should match the tense of the previous 2 verbs, which would make it "gives".
"Roost recovers your HP in a pinch, and removes Moltres' Electric-type weakness, as well as giving Moltres a resistance to Ice-type attacks."
Not sure what it was originally but "giving" is incorrect. The verb should match the tense of the previous 2 verbs, which would make it "gives".
Hi.
pink is grammar edits
blue is prose/content edits
[Overview]
<p>Moltres is a niche Pokemon in the OU environment. On one hand, it is possibly the best Scizor counter outside Ubers. On the other, it loses half its health whenever it switches into Stealth Rock, a common battle condition. Rapid Spin support is a must when using Moltres, as the damage is just too devastating to its survivability without it. If you can keep Stealth Rock off the field, Moltres is a great asset to any team, able to counter some of the fiercest Pokemon in the metagame. All things considered, Moltres can either make or break the game, so tread with caution.</p>
[SET]
name: SubRoost
move 1: Flamethrower
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Roost
move 4: Toxic / Roar
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Unique typing coupled with good defenses allows Moltres to stall out many defensive Pokemon with Toxic, even in the OU metagame. Flamethrower is a reliable STAB move which hits nearly every Pokemon immune to Toxic super effectively. Roost recovers your HP in a pinch, and removes Moltres' Electric-type weakness and grants Moltres a resistance to Ice-type attacks. Substitute helps Moltres stall out attacks such as Stone Edge and also guards against status. If your team uses Toxic Spikes, Roar can replace Toxic so that you can rid yourself of annoying RestTalkers such as Gyarados and Suicune. However, you may still want to keep the status move so Moltres can better harm Pokémon not affected by Toxic Spikes, such as Salamence and Gliscor.</p>
<p>A combination of Toxic, Roost, and Substitute allows Moltres to defeat walls such as Vaporeon, Blissey, and Gliscor with a little prediction. Since it resists Fighting-, Steel-, Bug-, and Fire-type attacks, Moltres is able to counter Scizor, Jirachi, Infernape (if he lacks Stone Edge) and numerous other physical attackers without many drawbacks. Scizor cannot break Moltres' Substitute with Bullet Punch, meaning Moltres can switch in (even on Stealth Rock), set up a Substitute on the likely switch, and Roost off the damage. An Adamant Lucario's Swords Danced Life Orb Close Combat will only 2HKO, so if the foe doesn't have Stone Edge, Moltres makes a good counter to Lucario as well.</p>
[Additional Comments]
<p>Moltres' biggest problem (other than Stealth Rock) is the competition it faces for a team slot. Heatran and Zapdos are two other common Toxic stall Pokemon, both possessing a Fire-type attack as well. Heatran, however, lacks reliable recovery, which Moltres has in the form of Roost. Zapdos lacks Fire-type STAB, which enables Moltres to beat the standard RestTalk Rotom-A. Zapdos can only hurt it with an unSTABed Fire-type attack or a resisted Electric-type attack. Fire-type STAB also allows Moltres to defeat Celebi and OHKO Lucario. Gliscor is immune to Thunderbolt and can Roost off Zapdos' Heat Wave without a problem, but will have some trouble stalling out Moltres, even with Taunt blocking Toxic. This is due to STAB Flamethrower having a chance to 2HKO Gliscor.</p>
<p>A Heatran locked into a move by a Choice item is walled by Moltres, not the other way around. A Specs Fire Blast does less than 50%, and Pressure burns up Fire Blast's PP faster than napalm on top of a flame. Even if Heatran comes in on a Flamethrower, Moltres can still Roost or Substitute while he attacks and Pressure the Fire Blasts away. Moltres' time will be largely focused on putting up another Substitute or Roosting, and in the lulls between these turns, it can Toxic Heatran to waste time. Moltres also beats RestTalk versions of Heatran, as they need to be damaged to Rest in the first place. Without being able to Rest, Heatran is forced to attack—almost as if he were Taunted—as Pressure slowly chokes his attacks. Since Choice Specs Heatran can't even beat Moltres, this strain of Heatran is going to do even less.</p>
<p>If Moltres is ever facing a Blissey, Moltres usually stalls Blissey out of her Seismic Toss PP with Pressure, Substitute, and Roost. Ice Beams usually don't break a Substitute, and Flamethrowers can't even in two hits. Even if Blissey has Thunderbolt, Moltres can still win, as Roost removes its Electric-type weakness while healing itself. Blissey's only chance to win is to either predict a Roost and status Moltres with Toxic, or use Calm Mind and Thunderbolt. Landing a Thunder Wave will also help, but paralysis doesn't quite stop Moltres (although getting fully paralyzed at a vital point quickly gets annoying). Vaporeon is also a great partner to Moltres as he counters Suicune and Gyarados well. Vaporeon can also pass Wish to Moltres, healing off Stealth Rock damage the very turn you switch in.</p>
[Team Options]
<p>The main thing hindering Moltres' use in OU is its 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, meaning it is stripped of near half its health whenever coming in. This greatly diminishes its ability to counter Pokemon and Toxic stall effectively. A Rapid Spin user is a must whenever using Moltres. Forretress and Starmie are the best choices. Starmie resists Water-type attacks which often trouble Moltres. Forretress can set up Toxic Spikes, aiding Moltres' stalling efforts. If it doesn't have to Toxic first turn, it can set up a Substitute right away.</p>
<p>Blissey is a great Pokemon to use alongside Moltres as Blissey is able to absorb Electric-type attacks and most Water-type attacks very well. Vaporeon, Starmie, and Rotom-A don't stand a chance against the almighty Blissey. If you have a Ground-type to absorb Electric-type attacks, then Suicune makes a fabulous partner to Moltres. One of Suicune's arch nemeses is Vaporeon, whom Moltres just happens to lure very well. Suicune can also take on Salamence one-on-one if it has Ice Beam. Swampert works rather well with Moltres as he can counter Tyranitar without a problem, as well as Choice Specs Jolteon if he lacks Hidden Power Grass.</p>
<p>A status absorber will be very helpful to Moltres, as many of the Pokemon Moltres wishes to beat often pack status moves. These Pokemon include Roserade, Celebi, Breloom, Bronzong, and even Blissey. RestTalk Machamp pairs decently with Moltres, capable of countering troublesome Tyranitar and making an excellent immediate switch into Blissey. Gyarados, although also weak to Rock-type attacks, absorbs status very well when using a RestTalk set. Intimidate is very valuable against Salamence and other physical attackers.</p>
[Optional Changes]
<p>Moltres can use Air Slash alongside Hidden Power Grass in an offensive set decently, but is outclassed by Heatran, who takes neutral damage from Stealth Rock and possesses a slightly higher Special Attack score.</p>
<p>A lead Moltres with a Choice Scarf is viable, as many of the common OU leads are weak to Fire-type attacks, but they will likely switch out anyway, leaving you in against your counter. Aerodactyl, Tyranitar, and Swampert are fairly common leads who will probably beat such a Moltres as well.</p>
<p>248 HP is preferred to simply maxing HP as it means Moltres can switch into Stealth Rock three times rather than two, which can be crucial in certain situations. Investing in Special Defense is viable as it helps you stall against weaker Surfs and Thunderbolts. 60 Speed EVs allow Moltres to outspeed 88 Speed Rotom-A, most Breloom, Adamant Scizor, and Adamant Tyranitar. 112 Speed EVs are enough to beat Jolly Tyranitar, while 160 Speed EVs with a boosting nature are enough to beat Adamant Lucario.</p>
[Counters]
<p>Bulky Water-types, as well as Blissey, do a decent job at countering Moltres, but will often get crippled in the process. Tentacruel is immune to Toxic, and thus can Surf Moltres without much fear of retaliation. The best counters to Moltres use Rest to eliminate poison damage and repeated Flamethrowers. Heatran makes a wonderful counter to Moltres <em>if</em> he has Taunt. A Taunted Moltres will always be forced to switch against Heatran or just end up activating Flash Fire. RestTalk Suicune and Gyarados can recover off Toxic damage, and also use Calm Mind and Dragon Dance, respectively, to sweep. Snorlax with Thick Fat takes next to no damage from Moltres and can use Curse to set up on it. When poison has taken its toll, he can then use Rest to recover his health. Tyranitar makes a decent switch-in to Moltres as he does not fear Flamethrower and can use Stone Edge to easily OHKO Moltres. Be wary of Pressure stalling, however. Curse Tyranitar is a wonderful counter to Moltres. The sandstorm that Tyranitar brings also greatly limits Moltres' ability to continuously stall Pokemon. Salamence and Dragonite can come in on a Flamethrower, but usually fear Toxic.</p>
Like jc104 said, great analysis
pink is grammar edits
blue is prose/content edits
[Overview]
<p>Moltres is a niche Pokemon in the OU environment. On one hand, it is possibly the best Scizor counter outside Ubers. On the other, it loses half its health whenever it switches into Stealth Rock, a common battle condition. Rapid Spin support is a must when using Moltres, as the damage is just too devastating to its survivability without it. If you can keep Stealth Rock off the field, Moltres is a great asset to any team, able to counter some of the fiercest Pokemon in the metagame. All things considered, Moltres can either make or break the game, so tread with caution.</p>
[SET]
name: SubRoost
move 1: Flamethrower
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Roost
move 4: Toxic / Roar
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Unique typing coupled with good defenses allows Moltres to stall out many defensive Pokemon with Toxic, even in the OU metagame. Flamethrower is a reliable STAB move which hits nearly every Pokemon immune to Toxic super effectively. Roost recovers your HP in a pinch, and removes Moltres' Electric-type weakness and grants Moltres a resistance to Ice-type attacks. Substitute helps Moltres stall out attacks such as Stone Edge and also guards against status. If your team uses Toxic Spikes, Roar can replace Toxic so that you can rid yourself of annoying RestTalkers such as Gyarados and Suicune. However, you may still want to keep the status move so Moltres can better harm Pokémon not affected by Toxic Spikes, such as Salamence and Gliscor.</p>
<p>A combination of Toxic, Roost, and Substitute allows Moltres to defeat walls such as Vaporeon, Blissey, and Gliscor with a little prediction. Since it resists Fighting-, Steel-, Bug-, and Fire-type attacks, Moltres is able to counter Scizor, Jirachi, Infernape (if he lacks Stone Edge) and numerous other physical attackers without many drawbacks. Scizor cannot break Moltres' Substitute with Bullet Punch, meaning Moltres can switch in (even on Stealth Rock), set up a Substitute on the likely switch, and Roost off the damage. An Adamant Lucario's Swords Danced Life Orb Close Combat will only 2HKO, so if the foe doesn't have Stone Edge, Moltres makes a good counter to Lucario as well.</p>
[Additional Comments]
<p>Moltres' biggest problem (other than Stealth Rock) is the competition it faces for a team slot. Heatran and Zapdos are two other common Toxic stall Pokemon, both possessing a Fire-type attack as well. Heatran, however, lacks reliable recovery, which Moltres has in the form of Roost. Zapdos lacks Fire-type STAB, which enables Moltres to beat the standard RestTalk Rotom-A. Zapdos can only hurt it with an unSTABed Fire-type attack or a resisted Electric-type attack. Fire-type STAB also allows Moltres to defeat Celebi and OHKO Lucario. Gliscor is immune to Thunderbolt and can Roost off Zapdos' Heat Wave without a problem, but will have some trouble stalling out Moltres, even with Taunt blocking Toxic. This is due to STAB Flamethrower having a chance to 2HKO Gliscor.</p>
<p>A Heatran locked into a move by a Choice item is walled by Moltres, not the other way around. A Specs Fire Blast does less than 50%, and Pressure burns up Fire Blast's PP faster than napalm on top of a flame. Even if Heatran comes in on a Flamethrower, Moltres can still Roost or Substitute while he attacks and Pressure the Fire Blasts away. Moltres' time will be largely focused on putting up another Substitute or Roosting, and in the lulls between these turns, it can Toxic Heatran to waste time. Moltres also beats RestTalk versions of Heatran, as they need to be damaged to Rest in the first place. Without being able to Rest, Heatran is forced to attack—almost as if he were Taunted—as Pressure slowly chokes his attacks. Since Choice Specs Heatran can't even beat Moltres, this strain of Heatran is going to do even less.</p>
<p>If Moltres is ever facing a Blissey, Moltres usually stalls Blissey out of her Seismic Toss PP with Pressure, Substitute, and Roost. Ice Beams usually don't break a Substitute, and Flamethrowers can't even in two hits. Even if Blissey has Thunderbolt, Moltres can still win, as Roost removes its Electric-type weakness while healing itself. Blissey's only chance to win is to either predict a Roost and status Moltres with Toxic, or use Calm Mind and Thunderbolt. Landing a Thunder Wave will also help, but paralysis doesn't quite stop Moltres (although getting fully paralyzed at a vital point quickly gets annoying). Vaporeon is also a great partner to Moltres as he counters Suicune and Gyarados well. Vaporeon can also pass Wish to Moltres, healing off Stealth Rock damage the very turn you switch in.</p>
[Team Options]
<p>The main thing hindering Moltres' use in OU is its 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, meaning it is stripped of near half its health whenever coming in. This greatly diminishes its ability to counter Pokemon and Toxic stall effectively. A Rapid Spin user is a must whenever using Moltres. Forretress and Starmie are the best choices. Starmie resists Water-type attacks which often trouble Moltres. Forretress can set up Toxic Spikes, aiding Moltres' stalling efforts. If it doesn't have to Toxic first turn, it can set up a Substitute right away.</p>
<p>Blissey is a great Pokemon to use alongside Moltres as Blissey is able to absorb Electric-type attacks and most Water-type attacks very well. Vaporeon, Starmie, and Rotom-A don't stand a chance against the almighty Blissey. If you have a Ground-type to absorb Electric-type attacks, then Suicune makes a fabulous partner to Moltres. One of Suicune's arch nemeses is Vaporeon, whom Moltres just happens to lure very well. Suicune can also take on Salamence one-on-one if it has Ice Beam. Swampert works rather well with Moltres as he can counter Tyranitar without a problem, as well as Choice Specs Jolteon if he lacks Hidden Power Grass.</p>
<p>A status absorber will be very helpful to Moltres, as many of the Pokemon Moltres wishes to beat often pack status moves. These Pokemon include Roserade, Celebi, Breloom, Bronzong, and even Blissey. RestTalk Machamp pairs decently with Moltres, capable of countering troublesome Tyranitar and making an excellent immediate switch into Blissey. Gyarados, although also weak to Rock-type attacks, absorbs status very well when using a RestTalk set. Intimidate is very valuable against Salamence and other physical attackers.</p>
[Optional Changes]
<p>Moltres can use Air Slash alongside Hidden Power Grass in an offensive set decently, but is outclassed by Heatran, who takes neutral damage from Stealth Rock and possesses a slightly higher Special Attack score.</p>
<p>A lead Moltres with a Choice Scarf is viable, as many of the common OU leads are weak to Fire-type attacks, but they will likely switch out anyway, leaving you in against your counter. Aerodactyl, Tyranitar, and Swampert are fairly common leads who will probably beat such a Moltres as well.</p>
<p>248 HP is preferred to simply maxing HP as it means Moltres can switch into Stealth Rock three times rather than two, which can be crucial in certain situations. Investing in Special Defense is viable as it helps you stall against weaker Surfs and Thunderbolts. 60 Speed EVs allow Moltres to outspeed 88 Speed Rotom-A, most Breloom, Adamant Scizor, and Adamant Tyranitar. 112 Speed EVs are enough to beat Jolly Tyranitar, while 160 Speed EVs with a boosting nature are enough to beat Adamant Lucario.</p>
[Counters]
<p>Bulky Water-types, as well as Blissey, do a decent job at countering Moltres, but will often get crippled in the process. Tentacruel is immune to Toxic, and thus can Surf Moltres without much fear of retaliation. The best counters to Moltres use Rest to eliminate poison damage and repeated Flamethrowers. Heatran makes a wonderful counter to Moltres <em>if</em> he has Taunt. A Taunted Moltres will always be forced to switch against Heatran or just end up activating Flash Fire. RestTalk Suicune and Gyarados can recover off Toxic damage, and also use Calm Mind and Dragon Dance, respectively, to sweep. Snorlax with Thick Fat takes next to no damage from Moltres and can use Curse to set up on it. When poison has taken its toll, he can then use Rest to recover his health. Tyranitar makes a decent switch-in to Moltres as he does not fear Flamethrower and can use Stone Edge to easily OHKO Moltres. Be wary of Pressure stalling, however. Curse Tyranitar is a wonderful counter to Moltres. The sandstorm that Tyranitar brings also greatly limits Moltres' ability to continuously stall Pokemon. Salamence and Dragonite can come in on a Flamethrower, but usually fear Toxic.</p>
Like jc104 said, great analysis
I still think Moltres has a good Niche in OU as a lead. With Specs he can OHKO Hippow before a SR, HP Grass for Pert, and OHKO Machamp and Metagross (through Occa) with Fire Blast / Air Slash. Not to mention he walls infernape and beats, and outspeeds Ros (HP Fire), and can potentially flinch with Air Slash.
Something like Fire Blast / Air Slash / HP Grass / U-turn. I'm sure a Life Orb can be used with Roost, but the OHKO on Machamp would be lost with Air Slash.
Something like Fire Blast / Air Slash / HP Grass / U-turn. I'm sure a Life Orb can be used with Roost, but the OHKO on Machamp would be lost with Air Slash.
@ Raikoulover Machamp can't do anything to Moltres anyways unless it runs Stone edge which most don't
Yeah I was looking into an OU Moltres lead but Charizard actually performs the role much better. Why? Because it has Focus Blast to maim Heatran and Tyranitar leads. It does lack some power, but with Focus Blast is gets more needed coverage. That was really the only thing though. I can't think of anything Moltres can use to beat out Charizard in this instance.
Additions in Bold
Deletions in Red
GP CHECK 2/2
Great job, and may I just say that you are my favorite?
Deletions in Red
GP CHECK 2/2
[Overview]
<p>Moltres is a niche Pokemon in the OU environment. On one hand, it is possibly the best Scizor counter outside Ubers. On the other, it loses half its health whenever it switches into Stealth Rock, a common battle condition. Rapid Spin support is a must when using Moltres, as the damage is just too devastating to its survivability without it. If you can keep Stealth Rock off the field, Moltres is a great asset to any team, able to counter some of the fiercest Pokemon in the metagame. All things considered, Moltres can either make or break the game, so tread with caution.</p>
[SET]
name: OU SubRoost SubRoost
move 1: Flamethrower
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Roost
move 4: Toxic / Roar
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Unique typing coupled with good defenses allows Moltres to stall out many defensive Pokemon with Toxic, even in the OU metagame. Flamethrower is a reliable STAB move which hits nearly every Pokemon immune to Toxic super effectively. Roost recovers your HP in a pinch, and removes Moltres' Electric-type weakness and grants Moltres a resistance to Ice-type attacks. Substitute helps Moltres stall out attacks such as Stone Edge and also guards against status. If your team uses Toxic Spikes, Roar can replace Toxic so that you can rid yourself of annoying RestTalkers such as Gyarados and Suicune. However, you may still want to keep the status move so Moltres can better harm Pokémon not affected by Toxic Spikes, such as Salamence and Gliscor.</p>
<p>A combination of Toxic, Roost, and Substitute allows Moltres to defeat walls such as Vaporeon, Blissey, and Gliscor with a little prediction. Since it resists Fighting-, Steel-, Bug-, and Fire-type attacks, Moltres is able to counter Scizor, Jirachi, Infernape (if he lacks Stone Edge), and numerous other physical attackers without many drawbacks. Scizor cannot break Moltres' Substitute with Bullet Punch, meaning Moltres can switch in (even on Stealth Rock), set up a Substitute on the likely switch, and Roost off the damage. An Adamant Lucario's Swords Danced Life Orb Close Combat will only 2HKO, so if the foe doesn't have Stone Edge, Moltres makes a good counter to Lucario as well.</p>
[Additional Comments]
<p>Moltres' biggest problem (other than Stealth Rock) is the competition it faces for a team slot. Heatran and Zapdos are two other common Toxic stall Pokemon, both possessing a Fire-type attack as well. Heatran, however, lacks reliable recovery, which Moltres has in the form of Roost. Zapdos lacks Fire-type STAB, which enables Moltres to beat the standard RestTalk Rotom-A. Zapdos can only hurt it with an unSTABed Fire-type attack or a resisted Electric-type attack. Fire-type STAB also allows Moltres to defeat Celebi and OHKO Lucario. Gliscor is immune to Thunderbolt and can Roost off Zapdos' Heat Wave without a problem, but will have some trouble stalling out Moltres, even with Taunt blocking Toxic. This is due to STAB Flamethrower having a chance to 2HKO Gliscor.</p>
<p>A Heatran locked into a move by a Choice item is walled by Moltres, not the other way around. A Specs Fire Blast does less than 50%, and Pressure burns up Fire Blast's PP faster than napalm on top of a flame. Even if Heatran comes in on a Flamethrower, Moltres can still Roost or Substitute while he attacks and Pressure the Fire Blasts away. Moltres' time will be largely focused on putting up another Substitute or Roosting, and in the lulls between these turns, it can Toxic Heatran to waste time. Moltres also beats RestTalk versions of Heatran, as they need to be damaged to Rest in the first place. Without being able to Rest, Heatran is forced to attack—almost as if he were Taunted—as Pressure slowly chokes his attacks. Since Choice Specs Heatran can't even beat Moltres, this strain of Heatran is going to do even less.</p>
<p>If Moltres is ever facing a Blissey, Moltres usually stalls Blissey out of her Seismic Toss PP with Pressure, Substitute, and Roost. Ice Beams usually don't break a Substitute, and Flamethrowers can't even in two hits. Even if Blissey has Thunderbolt, Moltres can still win, as Roost removes its Electric-type weakness while healing itself. Blissey's only chance to win is to either predict a Roost and status Moltres with Toxic, or use Calm Mind and Thunderbolt. Landing a Thunder Wave will also help, but paralysis doesn't quite stop Moltres (although getting fully paralyzed at a vital point quickly gets annoying). Vaporeon is also a great partner to Moltres as he counters Suicune and Gyarados well. Vaporeon can also pass Wish to Moltres, healing off Stealth Rock damage the very turn you switch in.</p>
[Team Options]
<p>The main thing hindering Moltres' use in OU is its 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, meaning it is stripped of nearly near half of its health whenever coming in. This greatly diminishes its ability to counter Pokemon and Toxic stall effectively. A Rapid Spin user is a must whenever using Moltres. Forretress and Starmie are the best choices. Starmie resists Water-type attacks which often trouble Moltres. Forretress can set up Toxic Spikes, aiding Moltres' stalling efforts. If it doesn't have to Toxic first turn, it can set up a Substitute right away.</p>
<p>Blissey is a great Pokemon to use alongside Moltres as Blissey is able to absorb Electric-type attacks and most Water-type attacks very well. Vaporeon, Starmie, and Rotom-A don't stand a chance against the almighty Blissey. If you have a Ground-type to absorb Electric-type attacks, then Suicune makes a fabulous partner to Moltres. One of Suicune's arch nemeses is Vaporeon, whom Moltres just happens to lure very well. Suicune can also take on Salamence one-on-one if it has Ice Beam. Swampert works rather well with Moltres as he can counter Tyranitar without a problem, as well as Choice Specs Jolteon if he lacks Hidden Power Grass.</p>
<p>A status absorber will be very helpful to Moltres, as many of the Pokemon Moltres wishes to beat often pack status moves. These Pokemon include Roserade, Celebi, Breloom, Bronzong, and even Blissey. RestTalk Machamp pairs decently with Moltres, capable of countering troublesome Tyranitar and making an excellent immediate switch into Blissey. Gyarados, although also weak to Rock-type attacks, absorbs status very well when using a RestTalk set. Intimidate also serves as an added bonus to help stop physical attacker. Intimidate is very valuable against Salamence and other physical attackers</p>
[Optional Changes]
<p>Moltres can use Air Slash alongside Hidden Power Grass in an offensive set decently, but is outclassed by Heatran, who takes neutral damage from Stealth Rock and possesses a slightly higher Special Attack score.</p>
<p>A lead Moltres with a Choice Scarf is viable, as many of the common OU leads are weak to Fire-type attacks, but they will likely switch out anyway, leaving you in against your counter. Aerodactyl, Tyranitar, and Swampert are fairly common leads who will probably beat such a Moltres as well.</p>
<p>248 HP is preferred to simply maxing HP as it means Moltres can switch into Stealth Rock three times rather than two, which can be crucial in certain situations. Investing in Special Defense is viable as it helps you stall against weaker Surfs and Thunderbolts. 60 Speed EVs allow Moltres to outspeed 88 Speed Rotom-A, most Breloom, Adamant Scizor, and Adamant Tyranitar. 112 Speed EVs are enough to beat Jolly Tyranitar, while 160 Speed EVs with a boosting nature are enough to beat Adamant Lucario.</p>
[Counters]
<p>Bulky Water-types, as well as Blissey, do a decent job at countering Moltres, but will often get crippled in the process. Tentacruel is immune to Toxic, and thus can Surf Moltres without much fear of retaliation. The best counters to Moltres use Rest to eliminate poison damage and repeated Flamethrowers. Heatran makes a wonderful counter to Moltres <em>if</em> he has Taunt. A Taunted Moltres will always be forced to switch against Heatran or just end up activating Flash Fire. RestTalk Suicune and Gyarados can recover off Toxic damage, and also use Calm Mind and Dragon Dance, respectively, to sweep. Snorlax with Thick Fat takes next to no damage from Moltres and can use Curse to set up on it. When poison has taken its toll, he can then use Rest to recover his health. Tyranitar makes a decent switch-in to Moltres as he does not fear Flamethrower and can use Stone Edge to easily OHKO Moltres. Be wary of Pressure stalling, however. Curse Tyranitar is a wonderful counter to Moltres. The sandstorm that Tyranitar brings also greatly limits Moltres' ability to continuously stall Pokemon. Salamence and Dragonite can come in on a Flamethrower, but usually fears fear Toxic.</p>
<p>Moltres is a niche Pokemon in the OU environment. On one hand, it is possibly the best Scizor counter outside Ubers. On the other, it loses half its health whenever it switches into Stealth Rock, a common battle condition. Rapid Spin support is a must when using Moltres, as the damage is just too devastating to its survivability without it. If you can keep Stealth Rock off the field, Moltres is a great asset to any team, able to counter some of the fiercest Pokemon in the metagame. All things considered, Moltres can either make or break the game, so tread with caution.</p>
[SET]
name: OU SubRoost SubRoost
move 1: Flamethrower
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Roost
move 4: Toxic / Roar
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Unique typing coupled with good defenses allows Moltres to stall out many defensive Pokemon with Toxic, even in the OU metagame. Flamethrower is a reliable STAB move which hits nearly every Pokemon immune to Toxic super effectively. Roost recovers your HP in a pinch, and removes Moltres' Electric-type weakness and grants Moltres a resistance to Ice-type attacks. Substitute helps Moltres stall out attacks such as Stone Edge and also guards against status. If your team uses Toxic Spikes, Roar can replace Toxic so that you can rid yourself of annoying RestTalkers such as Gyarados and Suicune. However, you may still want to keep the status move so Moltres can better harm Pokémon not affected by Toxic Spikes, such as Salamence and Gliscor.</p>
<p>A combination of Toxic, Roost, and Substitute allows Moltres to defeat walls such as Vaporeon, Blissey, and Gliscor with a little prediction. Since it resists Fighting-, Steel-, Bug-, and Fire-type attacks, Moltres is able to counter Scizor, Jirachi, Infernape (if he lacks Stone Edge), and numerous other physical attackers without many drawbacks. Scizor cannot break Moltres' Substitute with Bullet Punch, meaning Moltres can switch in (even on Stealth Rock), set up a Substitute on the likely switch, and Roost off the damage. An Adamant Lucario's Swords Danced Life Orb Close Combat will only 2HKO, so if the foe doesn't have Stone Edge, Moltres makes a good counter to Lucario as well.</p>
[Additional Comments]
<p>Moltres' biggest problem (other than Stealth Rock) is the competition it faces for a team slot. Heatran and Zapdos are two other common Toxic stall Pokemon, both possessing a Fire-type attack as well. Heatran, however, lacks reliable recovery, which Moltres has in the form of Roost. Zapdos lacks Fire-type STAB, which enables Moltres to beat the standard RestTalk Rotom-A. Zapdos can only hurt it with an unSTABed Fire-type attack or a resisted Electric-type attack. Fire-type STAB also allows Moltres to defeat Celebi and OHKO Lucario. Gliscor is immune to Thunderbolt and can Roost off Zapdos' Heat Wave without a problem, but will have some trouble stalling out Moltres, even with Taunt blocking Toxic. This is due to STAB Flamethrower having a chance to 2HKO Gliscor.</p>
<p>A Heatran locked into a move by a Choice item is walled by Moltres, not the other way around. A Specs Fire Blast does less than 50%, and Pressure burns up Fire Blast's PP faster than napalm on top of a flame. Even if Heatran comes in on a Flamethrower, Moltres can still Roost or Substitute while he attacks and Pressure the Fire Blasts away. Moltres' time will be largely focused on putting up another Substitute or Roosting, and in the lulls between these turns, it can Toxic Heatran to waste time. Moltres also beats RestTalk versions of Heatran, as they need to be damaged to Rest in the first place. Without being able to Rest, Heatran is forced to attack—almost as if he were Taunted—as Pressure slowly chokes his attacks. Since Choice Specs Heatran can't even beat Moltres, this strain of Heatran is going to do even less.</p>
<p>If Moltres is ever facing a Blissey, Moltres usually stalls Blissey out of her Seismic Toss PP with Pressure, Substitute, and Roost. Ice Beams usually don't break a Substitute, and Flamethrowers can't even in two hits. Even if Blissey has Thunderbolt, Moltres can still win, as Roost removes its Electric-type weakness while healing itself. Blissey's only chance to win is to either predict a Roost and status Moltres with Toxic, or use Calm Mind and Thunderbolt. Landing a Thunder Wave will also help, but paralysis doesn't quite stop Moltres (although getting fully paralyzed at a vital point quickly gets annoying). Vaporeon is also a great partner to Moltres as he counters Suicune and Gyarados well. Vaporeon can also pass Wish to Moltres, healing off Stealth Rock damage the very turn you switch in.</p>
[Team Options]
<p>The main thing hindering Moltres' use in OU is its 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, meaning it is stripped of nearly near half of its health whenever coming in. This greatly diminishes its ability to counter Pokemon and Toxic stall effectively. A Rapid Spin user is a must whenever using Moltres. Forretress and Starmie are the best choices. Starmie resists Water-type attacks which often trouble Moltres. Forretress can set up Toxic Spikes, aiding Moltres' stalling efforts. If it doesn't have to Toxic first turn, it can set up a Substitute right away.</p>
<p>Blissey is a great Pokemon to use alongside Moltres as Blissey is able to absorb Electric-type attacks and most Water-type attacks very well. Vaporeon, Starmie, and Rotom-A don't stand a chance against the almighty Blissey. If you have a Ground-type to absorb Electric-type attacks, then Suicune makes a fabulous partner to Moltres. One of Suicune's arch nemeses is Vaporeon, whom Moltres just happens to lure very well. Suicune can also take on Salamence one-on-one if it has Ice Beam. Swampert works rather well with Moltres as he can counter Tyranitar without a problem, as well as Choice Specs Jolteon if he lacks Hidden Power Grass.</p>
<p>A status absorber will be very helpful to Moltres, as many of the Pokemon Moltres wishes to beat often pack status moves. These Pokemon include Roserade, Celebi, Breloom, Bronzong, and even Blissey. RestTalk Machamp pairs decently with Moltres, capable of countering troublesome Tyranitar and making an excellent immediate switch into Blissey. Gyarados, although also weak to Rock-type attacks, absorbs status very well when using a RestTalk set. Intimidate also serves as an added bonus to help stop physical attacker. Intimidate is very valuable against Salamence and other physical attackers</p>
[Optional Changes]
<p>Moltres can use Air Slash alongside Hidden Power Grass in an offensive set decently, but is outclassed by Heatran, who takes neutral damage from Stealth Rock and possesses a slightly higher Special Attack score.</p>
<p>A lead Moltres with a Choice Scarf is viable, as many of the common OU leads are weak to Fire-type attacks, but they will likely switch out anyway, leaving you in against your counter. Aerodactyl, Tyranitar, and Swampert are fairly common leads who will probably beat such a Moltres as well.</p>
<p>248 HP is preferred to simply maxing HP as it means Moltres can switch into Stealth Rock three times rather than two, which can be crucial in certain situations. Investing in Special Defense is viable as it helps you stall against weaker Surfs and Thunderbolts. 60 Speed EVs allow Moltres to outspeed 88 Speed Rotom-A, most Breloom, Adamant Scizor, and Adamant Tyranitar. 112 Speed EVs are enough to beat Jolly Tyranitar, while 160 Speed EVs with a boosting nature are enough to beat Adamant Lucario.</p>
[Counters]
<p>Bulky Water-types, as well as Blissey, do a decent job at countering Moltres, but will often get crippled in the process. Tentacruel is immune to Toxic, and thus can Surf Moltres without much fear of retaliation. The best counters to Moltres use Rest to eliminate poison damage and repeated Flamethrowers. Heatran makes a wonderful counter to Moltres <em>if</em> he has Taunt. A Taunted Moltres will always be forced to switch against Heatran or just end up activating Flash Fire. RestTalk Suicune and Gyarados can recover off Toxic damage, and also use Calm Mind and Dragon Dance, respectively, to sweep. Snorlax with Thick Fat takes next to no damage from Moltres and can use Curse to set up on it. When poison has taken its toll, he can then use Rest to recover his health. Tyranitar makes a decent switch-in to Moltres as he does not fear Flamethrower and can use Stone Edge to easily OHKO Moltres. Be wary of Pressure stalling, however. Curse Tyranitar is a wonderful counter to Moltres. The sandstorm that Tyranitar brings also greatly limits Moltres' ability to continuously stall Pokemon. Salamence and Dragonite can come in on a Flamethrower, but usually fears fear Toxic.</p>
Great job, and may I just say that you are my favorite?