man you guys love picking apart my completely unimportant random examples r__r;
I'm not sure what a dsds lead is, however I don't think you can argue that suicide leads using stealth rock can be punished, with the exception of anti-lead weavile.
as has been said, weavile and many other anti suicide leads are getting popular and suppressing that strat.
In the situation you mentioned where gyarados uses DD once and sweeps 6-0 (haven't we gotten past this gyaranoia?),
lol sorry what? i didnt imply that gyara sweeps all i was just hypothesizing an arbitrary gyarados weak team (like my old one ^_^) doesnt have to be a 6-0 e__E
the only way I can see this happening is if both pokemon were leads and Heatran has a focus sash and explosion. Heatran stealth rocks, gyara DDs; gyara waterfalls and heatran explodes,
maybe it's a shuca lead tran (they are awesome) and gyara instead outspeeds and ohkos next turn and then sweeps ;__;
leaving gyara to be revenge killed by scarfdos, lucario, what-have-you. If the Heatran is not sashed, then the heatran player would just switch to a gyara counter while it DDs up and stealth rock later when heatran can be switched in again.
or they dumbly sr turn one heh x__x
So SR is not punished by this most random of situations, it just has to be saved for a later time because it is not an appropriate move to use in that situation. And suicide leads can't be prevented from using stealth rock at all in this way, except by weavile of course.
so? you're complaining that a pokemon meant to get it's job done vs most of the leads shouldnt be able to switch into something that it can take advantage of? that's like saying lucario is broken because you can switch him into cbtar, or that revenge killing stuff is unfair.
just a tangent here, but suicide leads were designed to set sr and explode to give the first switch to the user and hopefully maintain offensive pressure with sr as insurance. suicide lead+5 pure offense was/is a good strat but it's by no means the end all strat of the metagame as many anti suicide lead users can tell you. i dont see how they're harmful, they're just forcing stall to adapt =___=
stealth rock is not a punishable move in the way that explosion, dragon dance, spore, substitute, spikes, Tspikes, rapid spin, switching, thunder wave, outrage, leech seed etc. are punishable moves.
ok you need to explain what this punishable parameter is because i have no idea what you're talking about.
All of those attacks and strategies can be negated in equal or less than the amount of turns it takes to employ them. Negating stealth rock involves more turns than it takes to put it up or relies on situational advantage that is out of the player's control.
huh?
Fake Out Weavile is the only way to stop them both, but Weavile still can't stop Infernape suicide leads.
Weavile is also just a temporary fix, it only delays the inevitable stealth rocks.
that's the point? delay it and get yourself set up before he does. delaying stealth rock, hopefully for the whole match (but not always) is the point of the strat.
I would also like to suggest that "Over Centralization" not be a goal for defining what is "broken" or bannable. Whether a metagame is "centralized" or not is based on an arbitrarily decided measurement, but we can definitively say whether or not a move is punishable just by comparing the amount of turns it takes to use a move vs. the amount of turns it takes to negate a move as well as the amount of options there are for negation. A move should also be considered broken if the only way to counter that move is to use that move, the underlying cause of overcentralization.
what the hell are you talking about? how does that help us with actual pokemon? "this move is punishable!" can't be applied to an actual pokemon no matter how well you define your hokey parameter. "amount of turns" is a pretty easy unit to give to "punishability" but how would you apply it to something like "should we unban the latis?"
Oh, very interesting. Very cool. Still doesn't stop Infernape leads but very cool. Then I guess there are two ways to stop suicide SR leads now. Of course, if they manage to switch out and get back in, you won't be able to stop them unless you are to 100% predict every time they're going to bring it back in and switch in Jirachi.
lol it's a brave new world isn't it! two whole ways! i guess we've tapped that market heh!
If Gyarados can sweep a team with one DD, that player has FAR more issues than just playing Stealth Rock on the wrong turn. Giving your opponent a free move can be game changing, but it's almost never that game breaking.
MAN ok
And as was already said, who the hell is ever (EVER!!!), going to leave an unScarfed Heatran in on Gyarados? Especially to Stealth Rock! That's just a terrible example.
heh I'm sorry i guess i made a mistake in my battle ^__^ i just like having sr up (then i won it heh)
Hell, I don't think even Rayquaza, one of the most powerful Ubers, could sweep the average OU team totally with just one turn of set up.
you have to be kidding me. i can't concieve of a team in OU that doesn't get fucked up the ass by rayquaza that isnt composed of bronzong registeel and uh heatproof bronzong. we should test it, you'll see how wrong you are =\
Dual Screen Deoxys-Speed, most likely. Moveset is Reflect / Light Screen / Taunt / Filler.
usually sr xD
@ qibing, no one is arguing that sr doesn't push towards an offensive metagame but that's not really bound to prevail throughout the duration of the next couple of months. plat introduced hyperoffensive threats so that's what the populace goes with blah bah "metagame trends" (see foreystall ^__^).
Well, I really don't think SR makes it easier to win as much as it makes it harder to lose. Yes, I'm saying it's more of a defensive deterrent than anything. When you have SR out:
- Focus Sash users other than the lead aren't going to surprise kill you
- The many strong flying pokemon are kept in check to some extent
- Annoying Shedinja is covered
- You get to scout item usage on switchins wherein they aren't hurt by anything else (leftovers or not)
sheddy ;_;
sr is exactly what you say, and extremely useful move. so is earthquake, it kills shit and makes margarco unusable!
the fact that it's use is extremely beneficial to the player and difficult to remove/prevent means 2 things:
1. people will use it
2. the metagame will adapt
whether this metagame has adapted towards or away from an ideal diversity is not really any of our guess, and figuring that out right now seems like a foolish move "while we're still banning/debanning"
Personally, I've never been a fan of residual damage, but SR is just extra useful for countering some of the more unpredictable threats out there. I don't find that I win against solid teams more often when using SR, but I do find that I lose to unconventional teams more often when not using it.
it's a good move ^__^
