New and "creative" moveset/EV spread thread. Mk. 3

[Rolf]

DSTran
252 HP/220 Spd/36 SpD
Modest nature
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Lava Plume/Will-o-Wisp
- Earth Power/Fire Blast

This set looks much like SubTran, but instead of two attacking moves and one status move, you have two status moves and one attacking move. Sub up on the switch then Toxic any bulky waters or W-o-W any physical EQers. You can either go with Will-o-Wisp for the 75% burn chance or Lava Plume for a much-smaller 30% burn chance but you get better attacking coverage. As you wait for the status to kill them you can speed up the process with either Fire Blast or Earth Power. Fire Blast will do more damage to most things, especially if you can get a Flash Fire boost, but is completely stalled by other Heatran. EP allows you to hurt other 'Trans.

EVs are simple: 252 HP for maximum duribility, 220 speed to outpace any neutral-speed natured base 70 pokes, standard Jolly Tyranitar, standard Zapdos and standard Celebi. 32 SpD - Defence isn't needed since you will just be W-o-Wing any physical attackers.

I've used this to great success on the ladder. Please comment and leave feedback so I can make this the best set possible!

 

[Lee]

I dunno, I'd much rather use the standard Lava Plume instead of Will-o-Wisp and slap Earth Power in the last slot and just ride my luck rather than sacrificing coverage. You can argue that Will-o-Wisp is a guaranteed burn compared to Lava Plume's shaky 30% but in reality Will-o-Wisp only has a 75% chance of burning the opponent and you have to ask yourself whether that additional 35% chance is really worth sacrificing coverage and attack power.

 

[Rolf]

I never thought of Lava Plume. I'll add that in as an extra option.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Instead, you should just call it the regular SubTran and go with Lava Plume / WoW and Earth Power / Fire Blast.

Also without Earth Power you are 150% walled by opposing Heatran.

 

[Rolf]

Instead, you should just call it the regular SubTran and go with Lava Plume / WoW and Earth Power / Fire Blast.

Also without Earth Power you are 150% walled by opposing Heatran.

I pointed that out actually. No point repeating it. I also said that its much the same as SubTran, but it plays a lot differently.

 

[E.A.]

I pointed that out actually. No point repeating it. I also said that its much the same as SubTran, but it plays a lot differently.

The point SDS is trying to get across is that the third most popular Pokemon at the moment completely stops this, and therefore, Earth Power should probably be the #1 option in the first slot, and probably should be the ONLY option in the fourth slot. Switching out on a surprise SubTran is the last thing you want to do (speaking from experience >_< .)

About the EVs: They're nice, but if you threw 20 more EVs into Spe, you would outrun Jolly Tyranitar, which a lot of other Pokemon are gunning for anyway. It's not like you are losing a whole lot of SDef if you do that either.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Well, 16 beats Jollytar. 20 beats stuff like 32 EV Celebi/Zapdos that aims to beat Jollytar by 1 point.

 

[Lee]

This doesn't exactly scream 'creative' but it's not in the analysis so...

Charizard @ Expert Belt
Adamant
80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
- Dragon Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Earthquake
- Thunderpunch

Fairly standard DD set up with Fire/Ground/Electric offering excellent coverage. I've opted for Expert Belt because Flare Blitz + LO is suicide really and he's hitting 10 types for super-effective anyway. Immunity to burn is a neat advantage over the other Dragon Dancers.

Flare Blitz is just overkill on most things and Earthquake compliments it nicely by dealing with the Fire and Rock types that resist it.

Thunderpunch is a Platinum addition that makes this set somewhat viable compared to it's DP counterpart. It's not smashing through bulky waters in one hit by any means but it deals a tidy 42-50% to 212/252 Bold Slowbro after a boost and 55-65% to 148/252 Bold Milotic. You've got a chance of OHKOing an offensive Feraligatr with SR too. Thanks to the HP EVs, an opposing Water-type needs a SpA stat of 268 to even have a 2% chance of OHKOing Charizard with Surf so you can stay in if you're absolutely desperate but it's probably best to just weaken them beforehand. :x Thunderpunch also ties up a few loose ends with the coverage of Flare Blitz/EQ, namely Moltres, opposing Charizard and Gyarados/Aerodactyl in OU.

The main concern I found was that when I got a free turn to use Dragon Dance I'd often think 'I could have actually used Belly Drum there...' and then I die a little inside but tbh Belly Drum just doesn't seem to be effective in DP so I need to get over it! And of course the Stealth Rock weak and suicidal tendencies of Flare Blitz don't go together that well but he's a decent sweeper and everybody wants an excuse to use Charizard, right?

 

[Steinhauser]

The problem with BellyZard I found was how easy it was to revenge kill, lacking priority as it does. In fact, with priority everywhere, the only really good drummer in UU (that I've tried) is Linoone.

That said, DDzard may have an advantage because people are less likely to switch out from it, even if they can only muster a weak hit. With Bellyzard as the most well-known (or feared) set, I know I, for one, would stay in with a light sub-breaking hit rather than risk its setup. By the time they realise you're using DD, and manage to switch out or put you in low health, you could easily get 2 or more dances.

 

[Rolf]

Well, 16 beats Jollytar. 20 beats stuff like 32 EV Celebi/Zapdos that aims to beat Jollytar by 1 point.

I didn't realize this. I'll go ahead and add 20 to speed then out of SpD as those EVs were mostly filler anyways. I also didn't realize that the order I put the attack moves in changes things. I'll change EP and Fire Blast's order also.

 

[blasphemy1]

I didn't realize this. I'll go ahead and add 20 to speed then out of SpD as those EVs were mostly filler anyways. I also didn't realize that the order I put the attack moves in changes things. I'll change EP and Fire Blast's order also.

It does, but you should match the moves that go together well. I think you should go with Lava Plume/Will-o-Wisp for the third slot, and Earth Power/Fire Blast for the fourth, so the moves correspond. Lava Plume and Earth Power are the obvious favorites on SubTran.

 

[diinbong]

This doesn't exactly scream 'creative' but it's not in the analysis so...

Charizard @ Expert Belt
Adamant
80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
- Dragon Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Earthquake
- Thunderpunch

Fairly standard DD set up with Fire/Ground/Electric offering excellent coverage. I've opted for Expert Belt because Flare Blitz + LO is suicide really and he's hitting 10 types for super-effective anyway. Immunity to burn is a neat advantage over the other Dragon Dancers.

Flare Blitz is just overkill on most things and Earthquake compliments it nicely by dealing with the Fire and Rock types that resist it.

Thunderpunch is a Platinum addition that makes this set somewhat viable compared to it's DP counterpart. It's not smashing through bulky waters in one hit by any means but it deals a tidy 42-50% to 212/252 Bold Slowbro after a boost and 55-65% to 148/252 Bold Milotic. You've got a chance of OHKOing an offensive Feraligatr with SR too. Thanks to the HP EVs, an opposing Water-type needs a SpA stat of 268 to even have a 2% chance of OHKOing Charizard with Surf so you can stay in if you're absolutely desperate but it's probably best to just weaken them beforehand. :x Thunderpunch also ties up a few loose ends with the coverage of Flare Blitz/EQ, namely Moltres, opposing Charizard and Gyarados/Aerodactyl in OU.

The main concern I found was that when I got a free turn to use Dragon Dance I'd often think 'I could have actually used Belly Drum there...' and then I die a little inside but tbh Belly Drum just doesn't seem to be effective in DP so I need to get over it! And of course the Stealth Rock weak and suicidal tendencies of Flare Blitz don't go together that well but he's a decent sweeper and everybody wants an excuse to use Charizard, right?

The main reason this set isn't used is exactly as you said. If he has time to set up a Dragon Dance, he has time to set up a Belly Drum. Stealth Rock shouldn't be a factor in this vs Bellyzard considering this loses to Stealth Rock as well, and anyone using Charizard is going to need a spinner anyway. Still a cool set though :-)

Unanimouse
Moves:
~ Knock Off
~ Encore
~ Seismic Toss
~ Light Screen / Body Slam / Sing / Toxic

This is an interesting set indeed, but I would still just go with a hyper defensive version of the RestTalk set with Huge Power. I mean, without Huge Power, the problem is that you aren't doing anything to these guys back.

 

[Rolf]

The main reason this set isn't used is exactly as you said. If he has time to set up a Dragon Dance, he has time to set up a Belly Drum. Stealth Rock shouldn't be a factor in this vs Bellyzard considering this loses to Stealth Rock as well, and anyone using Charizard is going to need a spinner anyway. Still a cool set though :-)

Lets think this through. If you go with Belly Drum:
Turn 1) Switch in after one of your pokes dies (100%)
Turn 2) Sub on the switch (75%)
Turn 3) BD as they break your sub while Salac raises speed (25%)
Turn 4) Continue to either sweep with +6 Att and +1 Spd

Pros: Much larger sweeping potential, KOs just about everything in 1 hit
Cons: Fails to priority and Scarfers, SR ruins it

DD:
Turn 1) Switch in after one of your pokes dies (100%)
Turn 2) DD on the switch (100%)
Turn 3) Proceed to either DD again or sweep with +1 Att and +1 Spd with all 100% of your health left

Pros: Much easier to set up, Less susceptible to priorities, (Bullet Punch, the most commonly used priority right now, is not very effective) more longetivity, can still function under SR conditions
Cons: Still dies to anything faster with a super effective move, doesn't have nearly the same KO power.

Take your pick.

 

[Pisti]

The speed raising berry is Salac

I'm going to make a new UU team with that Charizard on it now to try the set out

 

[Dormin]

I think there is more to that Charizard set than meets the eye (who ISN'T pumped for Transformers 2?). First of all, to all those who immediately dismiss Dragon Dance on Charizard with the reason that "its just wasting a free turn to belly drum" are not looking at the whole picture.

Consider the prevalence of priority in today's OU metagame. Taking into account the fact that most to all Scizor nowadays either run max attack or something close to it with Life Orb, it is safe to say that most to all Scizor are able to KO a 25% health Charizard with bullet punch. This of course doesn't even take residual damage into account.

In addition, the amount of sickeningly fast scarfers out there meant to take down Salamence is unprecedented. Having tried Bellyzard recently, the amount of kryptonite working against a 25% health Charizard at 448 speed is incredible.

Thus, we come to the DDzard Lee posted. Personally, I think it looks great. This set, of course, will always face comparisons to DDmence. First of all, the HP evs Lee invested greatly enhance Charizard's survivability. From experience with my ScarfZard set, the little investment goes a long way towards surviving Thunderbolts and Surfs. Anyway, in comparison to Salamence, a DDZard suffers only neutral damage to Ice Shard, and resists Bullet Punch--both of these priority moves are common tactics that take down common Dragon Dancers. Second, really bulky waters are counters that both DDzard and mence share, though in Charizard's case he does not suffer from a 4x weak to the omnipresent Ice type, and he can take a hit with the HP Evs that Lee explained above.

Of course there are drawbacks, and I am not so enamored with Charizard that I won't consider them. Charizard has significantly less attack, and a much larger weakness to stealth rock. However, there are ways to keep the rocks off of the field, and the less attack is remedied in short by the psychological effect that I know I have always stressed. Most players believe that Charizard is a Bellyzard 99% of the time, which forces them into desperation moves that could net Charizard an easy second Dragon Dance.

In order to avoid this becoming tl;dr, I'll just say that it looks like a fun set, and that I'll definitely be trying it. Nice job Lee!

EDIT: lol sorry everyone, I tend to blow things a bit out of proportion. I hardly realized the emphasis on UU.

 

[Zero7]

too late. it already is tl;dr. j/k. I can't velieve DDZard isn't in the anylasis. But even then guys, if Scizor does 25%, and SR does 50% Zard already at 25% himself. Adding to this, IMO, flare blitz is pure suicide.



EDIT: WOOT, 400TH POAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[blasphemy1]

I think there is more to that Charizard set than meets the eye (who ISN'T pumped for Transformers 2?). First of all, to all those who immediately dismiss Dragon Dance on Charizard with the reason that "its just wasting a free turn to belly drum" are not looking at the whole picture.

Consider the prevalence of priority in today's OU metagame. Taking into account the fact that most to all Scizor nowadays either run max attack or something close to it with Life Orb, it is safe to say that most to all Scizor are able to KO a 25% health Charizard with bullet punch. This of course doesn't even take residual damage into account.

In addition, the amount of sickeningly fast scarfers out there meant to take down Salamence is unprecedented. Having tried Bellyzard recently, the amount of kryptonite working against a 25% health Charizard at 448 speed is incredible.

Thus, we come to the DDzard Lee posted. Personally, I think it looks great. This set, of course, will always face comparisons to DDmence. First of all, the HP evs Lee invested greatly enhance Charizard's survivability. From experience with my ScarfZard set, the little investment goes a long way towards surviving Thunderbolts and Surfs. Anyway, in comparison to Salamence, a DDZard suffers only neutral damage to Ice Shard, and resists Bullet Punch--both of these priority moves are common tactics that take down common Dragon Dancers. Second, really bulky waters are counters that both DDzard and mence share, though in Charizard's case he does not suffer from a 4x weak to the omnipresent Ice type, and he can take a hit with the HP Evs that Lee explained above.

Of course there are drawbacks, and I am not so enamored with Charizard that I won't consider them. Charizard has significantly less attack, and a much larger weakness to stealth rock. However, there are ways to keep the rocks off of the field, and the less attack is remedied in short by the psychological effect that I know I have always stressed. Most players believe that Charizard is a Bellyzard 99% of the time, which forces them into desperation moves that could net Charizard an easy second Dragon Dance.

In order to avoid this becoming tl;dr, I'll just say that it looks like a fun set, and that I'll definitely be trying it. Nice job Lee!

I can't really say this is true, as priority + faster Scarfers still wreck DDZard as much as Belly Zard, the only difference is Belly Zard only guarantees +1 Speed. With all of the offense being thrown around, DD Zard doesn't really have time to get more than 1 DD anyways, in which case Belly Zard would have been better, as Stealth Rock rocks every Charizards world.

How does DD Zard have any surprise value over BellyZard? I mean, sure, they won't be expecting it, but it is still countered by the same shit, AND more. Now you allow Salamence to come in and set up some DDs of its own, while bulky waters can still Roar you away or Surf you. Notice that now Thick Fat Snorlax will be able to counter you a lot more often, since it doesn't even need to invest to survive +1 EQs from mediocre attack.

Why ThunderPunch > Dragon Claw? You are going to get destroyed by bulky waters even with ThunderPunch, and Gyarados can survive a once DD'd ThunderPunch since Intimidate reduces it. Dragon Claw provides coverage against Kingdra, Salamence, but most importantly, Flygon, who walks all over that set in OU.

In UU, ThunderPunch is probably the better option, since it hits Milotic and Blastoise hard, and Mantine too...

EDIT: Flare Blitz is pretty much necessary on that set, or else even Atlaria in UU completely outclasses it. I would consider a Roost + DD set, sacrificing a third move for survivability.

 

[Lee]

Why ThunderPunch > Dragon Claw? You are going to get destroyed by bulky waters even with ThunderPunch, and Gyarados can survive a once DD'd ThunderPunch since Intimidate reduces it. Dragon Claw provides coverage against Kingdra, Salamence, but most importantly, Flygon, who walks all over that set in OU.

In UU, ThunderPunch is probably the better option, since it hits Milotic and Blastoise hard, and Mantine too...

Charizard's a UU Pokemon...it's a UU set. Note that I gave damage calcs for Slowbro and Milotic and mentioned how Thunderpunch hits enemy Moltres/Charizard.

I would consider a Roost + DD set, sacrificing a third move for survivability.

I used Roost on this set back in early-mid DP as it exposed some weaknesses in stall teams (Obi's for example was fairly weak to it if Hippowdon went down) but I can't imagine it being effective anymore.

 

[BalancedPower]

Hm...I admit I am not the most original person in the world but...here's a try.

Sceptile (Modest)
Overgrow @ Petaya Berry
252 Spc Atk/252 Spd/6 HP

Substitute
Energy Ball/Grass Knot
Dragon Pulse/Focus Blast
Hidden Power Ground (30 Spc Attack/30 Spc Defense, 31 for rest)/Focus Blast

Now I know the 30 Spc Attack EV just seems to go against the nature of the set, but I just created this for purposes in which I might use him (OU). In which, Heatran is probably the biggest Fire threat, and Ground ruins him. One point isn't a huge deal, and is enough to deal with a lot. You can go Focus Blast if you want instead of HP Ground or Dragon Pulse because it provides great coverage as well, and it is not a horrid option to use Grass Knot over Energy Ball specially in OU and maybe Uber (If Sceptile is ever possibly used their...Novelty? :O). Sub till Petaya and then well go loose, he has strong speed a 120 so he can outspeed a lot. Just a try.

 

[MetaNite]

Hm...I admit I am not the most original person in the world but...here's a try.

Sceptile (Modest)
Overgrow @ Petaya Berry
252 Spc Atk/252 Spd/6 HP

Substitute
Leaf Storm/Energy Ball
Dragon Pulse
Hidden Power Ground (30 Spc Attack/30 Spc Defense, 31 for rest

Now I know the 30 Spc Attack EV just seems to go against the nature of the set, but I just created this for purposes in which I might use him (OU). In which, Heatran is probably the biggest Fire threat, and Ground ruins him. One point isn't a huge deal, and is enough to deal with a lot. You can go Focus Blast if you want instead of HP Ground, and Energy Ball/Grass Knot instead of Leaf Storm. Sub till Petaya and then well go loose, he has strong speed a 120 so he can outspeed a lot. Just a try.

This actually looks pretty good. You are fast enough, and with Overgrow you should play a lot like SubPetaya Empoleon but better coverage with 3 attacks.

I'm going to check this out.

 

[BalancedPower]

This actually looks pretty good. You are fast enough, and with Overgrow you should play a lot like SubPetaya Empoleon but better coverage with 3 attacks.

I'm going to check this out.

Thanks
I think a quick change is in order though.
Energy Ball over Leaf Storm for sure, because with Berry this is a one time sweep not something you can bring back and forth because it just lacks power otherwise, and Leaf Storm weakens your way of attacking pretty badly when used, and is overkill a lot of the time. Grass Knot is a viable option, but I recommend Energy Ball because it lowers Spc Defense, is more widely usable, specially if target is light. And for Dragon Pulse and last slot, Focus Blast is also an option because it is a strong attack, and has the same Energy Ball like effect, not to mention if you use this in OU you destroy Heatran still and Chansey/Blissey

 

[Amphetamines]

I posted this before, but it got ignored:

Machamp @ Choice Band
188 HP / 252 ATK / 70 DEF
Adamant / No Guard
~ Dynamic Punch
~ Stone Edge
~ Bullet Punch
~ Knock Off

This Machamp utilizes how fearsome a Choice Banded version can be; It has a 50% chance of 2HKOing Swampert, Tentacruel, Skarmory, Gastrodon, Bronzong, BulkyDOS, Donphan, Forretress, Vaporeon, and Suicune. This thing can run through teams, but the only problems are ghost + psychic types, and Salamence/Dragonite switching into Dynamic Punch. The defensive evs minimize the power from things like Scizor and Lucario, although SD CC from Lucario OHKOs. 100% Accurate Stone Edge's backed up by a high chance of critical hitting and a 571 attack stat is defiantly a fearsome move. Bullet Punch is mainly filler, as it can 2HKOs Gengar in sandstorm, and can pick off weakened foes. Knock Off is also filler as it can "cripple" bulky psychics like Cresselia coming in. Dynamic Punch is also very useful for things like Celebi, Salamence, and Cresselia for the confusion, allowing a lot of pokemon to easily switch in.

 

[BalancedPower]

I posted this before, but it got ignored:

Machamp @ Choice Band
188 HP / 252 ATK / 70 DEF
Adamant / No Guard
~ Dynamic Punch
~ Stone Edge
~ Bullet Punch
~ Knock Off

This Machamp utilizes how fearsome a Choice Banded version can be; It has a 50% chance of 2HKOing Swampert, Tentacruel, Skarmory, Gastrodon, Bronzong, BulkyDOS, Donphan, Forretress, Vaporeon, and Suicune. This thing can run through teams, but the only problems are ghost + psychic types, and Salamence/Dragonite switching into Dynamic Punch. The defensive evs minimize the power from things like Scizor and Lucario, although SD CC from Lucario OHKOs. 100% Accurate Stone Edge's backed up by a high chance of critical hitting and a 571 attack stat is defiantly a fearsome move. Bullet Punch is mainly filler, as it can 2HKOs Gengar in sandstorm, and can pick off weakened foes. Knock Off is also filler as it can "cripple" bulky psychics like Cresselia coming in. Dynamic Punch is also very useful for things like Celebi, Salamence, and Cresselia for the confusion, allowing a lot of pokemon to easily switch in.

I like Choice Band idea, but for moves I would go...
Dynamic Punch
Stone Edge
Bullet Punch
Ice Punch

Knock Off isn't worth it because your speed is not great, furthermore with Choice you will have to switch, and just coming in to Knock Off is not worth it I think. Ice Punch destroys Dragons/Latias, and hits most psychics neutrally.

I think to compliment this Machamp, Baton Passing Agility or Rock Polish/SD or Belly Drum/Metal Coat/maybe Healing? If you can ever get it off, I don't think this can be stopped,

 

[Veedrock]

I think to compliment this Machamp, Baton Passing Agility or Rock Polish/SD or Belly Drum/Metal Coat/maybe Healing? If you can ever get it off, I don't think this can be stopped

Just going to throw this out there; passing anything (except Wish/Screens) to a choiced pokemon is a really bad idea. You can get walled easily and then you have to switch anyways.

Agreeing that Knock Off should not be on a choice set. I also think that 4 speed would be beneficial specifically for outspeeding Blissey.

 

[Amphetamines]

Every dragon used other than Latias (or maybe Latios) is pretty much OKO'd by a Stone Edge, and Knock off should pretty much cripple Latias (for Choice sets, and sometimes even Leftovers sets). But Ice Punch might be worth it, I never really thought of it.