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New and "creative" moveset/EV spread thread. Mk. 3

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I'm thinking of changing my Tyranitar to this:

Tyranitar @ Babiri Berry
6 SpA/252 Attack/252 Speed
Hasty/Naive (+Speed, -Special Defense or Defense)
Dragon Dance
Fire Punch
HP Grass
Stone Edge

This is because the two most common Ttar counters I see are Scizor and Swampert. CB Scizor keeps getting his BP OHKOs on Ttar even with Leftovers recovering off my Stealth Rock damage, so Babiri Berry lets me get the Fire Punch on him (currently my best bet is to throw out Fire Punch as my first move, banking on the Scizor switch-in, but this way allows for Ttar to keep sweeping if Scizor comes in for the Revenge Kill). HP Grass with 6 SpA EVs and a Neutral SpA nature deals a minimum of 53.71% to 252 HP/0 SpD Swampert, which is a guaranteed 2HKO through Leftovers, which stops Swampert from being a counter to Ttar. It also does a little more than Stone Edge or Fire Punch would do to Hippowdon, but it's not 2HKOing him anytime soon. Still, I see a lot more Scizor/Swampert than Hippowdon. Fire Punch + Stone Edge provides very good coverage, hitting every Steel for at least base power 150, except Empoleon (as Fire Punch hits everything Steel in OU SE except Heatran and Empoleon, and Stone Edge hits Heatran Neutral). There are only a few OU resistors to the attacking pair of Fire Punch + Stone Edge: Rhyperior, Flygon, and Swampert. HP Grass 2HKOs the first and last, so Flygon and Hippowdon are really the big troublemakers for the set. But Ttar with Crunch doesn't fare much better against them, so this set seems like an improvement.
 
For your set wildfire, an Adamant or Jolly Crunch does similar damage to HP Grass, but gives you much better coverage and significantly higher damage to anything not named Hippowdon. Speaking of which, seeing as Stone Edge OHKO's Scizor, why not run Aqua Tail for annoying Hippowdon. I know that it looks like the standard DDTar now, but Babiri Berry is great for continuing your sweep by successfully neutering that painful Scizor.

Anyway great thread TAY, you never cease to amaze me with these awesome discussion threads of yours.

EDIT: Fuck you Caelum for moving my post, I look like an idiot now congratulating TAY for a thread this post isn't even in :P.
 
I cant believe this thread almost died.
I'll try to give it a jump start.

448.png
@ Focus Sash
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Close Combat
- Bullet Punch
- Crunch/Ice Punch
- Earthquake

Leadcario. You might say that I simply slapped a Sash on a random poke, but that is false. This Luke has tricks up his sleeve. First, it is immune to SS, but while it doesn't set it up (like FearTar), it is still capable of finishing off 1HP/weakened pokes with Bullet Punch. CC is standard, and has the added bonus of ignoring the Def/SpD drop due to sash. EQ is a move that most ppl forget Luke has (because it has little use in almost all sets), but 2HKO's lead Meta/Jira, which are increasing in popularity. Unfortunatly, it takes away some of it's versatibility, having only 1 slot for Ice Punch/Crunch (or Stone Edge, if Gyara is a problem). It should be noted that Ice Punch+Bullet is a 3HKO on Azelf, letting you live if he sets up.
Very good suprise value IMO.
 
well it isnt new persay but i did just think of it :D

Revengerade

Roserade @ Choice Scarf
Modest
4/0/0/252/0/252
-HP Rock
-Sludge Bomb
-Leaf Storm
-Weather Ball(fire)/ Sleep Powder

I like this mainly because of HP Rock. It smashes fire types who tend to have low Sp.Def such as Houndoom and Arcanine. It also nails Staraptor and Crobat, although imi not sure of the amount of damage a HP Rock will do to Staraptor(ill run calcs and edit in)

Modest becuase the power is needed for revenge killing. Leaf Storm picks off alot of weeakened opponents. The finla slot is up to preference. If your running a Suuny team this will make an excellent addition as it then sports a 100 BP fire move. If not, sleep powder is awesome as always.

I know everybody is goign "what about registeel OMG!" And the answer is simple, sleep it and switch or spam a fire ball to it's face :D. Sludge Bomb is excellent Second Stab, as few things resist it.

One thing I'd like to note is that there are problems when it comes ot Toxicroak, as neither stab nor HP rock will be doing much damage. Best bet is to sleep it, and switch to something that cna handle it.

And now for some calcs!

vs Staraptor

4 Hp/ 0 SpD - 90.6-107.3% (an OHKO if switched into SR, and this is without a CC drop)

vs Crobat

140 HP/ 0 SpD(new standard i think) - 58-68.8% ( A 2HKO, and with scar fyou cna outspeed before it roosts :D)

vs Houndoom

4 HP / 0 SpD 67.3 - 80 % ( An OHKO if rocks are up about 33% of the time. this is accounting for A neutral SpD Nature)

vs Arcanine

0 hp/ 0 def(for Sr im sure they put it into Def, correct me if im wrong) 61-72.2 % (never and OHKO unless you get cerithax, however it will be extremely weakened. Also, a Jolly CB Extremespeed only does 80.8 - 95.4%, so if you can get in without rocks, then you might have a chance at 2hko (hit on the switch, then again while it e-speeds) Although it is kinda obvious your screwed if it's either scarf'd or Adamant, as both will then outpseed you and Flare Blitz :( )

240 Hp / 0 Spd (bulkynine) - 51.4-60.8% Again it's a 2HKO, and a bulkynine's flamethrower(from the anaalysis) does 73.5-87.3 % to Roserade in return.

well that went better than i expected :D
 
i've been using this set with pretty good results.

Heatran @ Wide Lens
Hasty

-Magma Storm
-Earth Power
-Will-o-Wisp
-Stealth Rock

these days everyone and their brother is using Heatran, and more often than not he's scarfed or uses substitute.

i use this as a lead. if the opposing lead is a likely sasher that can't KO, i use Magma Storm to hit it hard and trap it, usually finishing them off in turn one.

if it's a physical attacker that is slower, but will be likely to stay in, i hit it with WoW to cripple it for the rest of the match.

if it's a likely switch, i usually go for rocks to scout for Heatran because i don't want to spoil the WoW surprise. if Heatran comes in, i switch out for another chance to neuter an attacker later.

this set relies HEAVILY on WoW not missing. if it does, you're either going to die, or the jig is up and the surprise is lost. that and the shaky accuracy of Magma Storm are the reason for Wide Lens instead of Wise Glasses or something else.

prediction is, as usual, the key for success.
 
MS said:
For your set wildfire, an Adamant or Jolly Crunch does similar damage to HP Grass, but gives you much better coverage and significantly higher damage to anything not named Hippowdon. Speaking of which, seeing as Stone Edge OHKO's Scizor, why not run Aqua Tail for annoying Hippowdon. I know that it looks like the standard DDTar now, but Babiri Berry is great for continuing your sweep by successfully neutering that painful Scizor.

Anyway great thread TAY, you never cease to amaze me with these awesome discussion threads of yours.
Click to expand...

Yes, Jolly +1 Crunch deals minimum 54% to 252 HP/0 Def Swampert. The problem is, most people who run Swampert as a Ttar counter run it with a Defense investment in addition to the HP Investment. For example, standard MixPert runs 240 Attack and 216 Defense, with a +Def nature. With this EV spread, Ttar's +1 Crunch deals only 40-47%, which will never 2HKO, even with Stealth Rocks and maximum damage on both hits (factoring leftovers). And Pokemon that resist Stone Edge and don't take Super Effective Damage from Fire Punch are pretty much limited to Ground types (and I guess random Machamps, but those are pretty rare), which A) tend to be much more Physically defensive than Specially Defensive, and B) are weak or double-weak to grass.

Also, on Aqua Tail versus Fire Punch: Fire Punch hits every Steel besides Heatran (who is hit neutrally by Stone Edge) as well as Breloom for at least base power 150. Fire Punch + Stone Edge gives 150 Base Power coverage on everything bar a few Ground Types (Swampert, Rhyperior, Flygon, Hippowdon, Donphan, Dugtrio), Empoleon, Machamp, and Heatproof Bronzong.

I dunno, it's really up to you. I think I'll stick to HP Grass/Stone Edge/Fire Punch, personally. Hippowdon tends to be burned and wounded from running up against my lead, Flygon is fairly brittle, and the others are either rare or take more from HP Grass than other options.

Also, @Deschain, I run that exact Heatran. Down to Wide Lens. Though I don't believe I run hasty. I run a bulkier EV Spread, based off of the Burn Support Heatran in the analysis.
 
br0th3r_sh00t3r.pt said:
I cant believe this thread almost died.
I'll try to give it a jump start.

448.png
@ Focus Sash
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Close Combat
- Bullet Punch
- Crunch/Ice Punch
- Earthquake

Leadcario. You might say that I simply slapped a Sash on a random poke, but that is false. This Luke has tricks up his sleeve. First, it is immune to SS, but while it doesn't set it up (like FearTar), it is still capable of finishing off 1HP/weakened pokes with Bullet Punch. CC is standard, and has the added bonus of ignoring the Def/SpD drop due to sash. EQ is a move that most ppl forget Luke has (because it has little use in almost all sets), but 2HKO's lead Meta/Jira, which are increasing in popularity. Unfortunatly, it takes away some of it's versatibility, having only 1 slot for Ice Punch/Crunch (or Stone Edge, if Gyara is a problem). It should be noted that Ice Punch+Bullet is a 3HKO on Azelf, letting you live if he sets up.
Very good suprise value IMO.
Click to expand...

a nve close combat does slighty more than ice punch
 
Unfortunately for Lucario, Metagross performs a similar set to much success, with Explosion to boot. On top of this, Metagross doesn't care about Tyranitar anyways, with the higher base speed, great defense, and Meteor Mash which always 2HKOs followed by a Bullet Punch anyways.

The biggest problem for that Lucario set is without Crunch, Azelf is still getting rocks up, as well as getting rid of your Sash with Fire Blast, putting you in range for Scizor's Bullet Punch. I actually think Extremespeed + Close Combat + Crunch + Ice Punch/Stone Edge would work better. Crunch followed by Extremespeed KOs Azelf, while CC followed by it KOs Aerodactyl and Infernape. A huge advantage for that Lucario is the ability to beat Infernape leads, by virtue of Inner Focus.
 
i think one advantage is ohkoing heatran with close combat where as metagross is ohkoed by fire blast even with occa berry
 
My most recent personal favorite gimmick is the following:

Forretress (M) @ Shed Shell
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP/112 Atk/144 Def
Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Spikes
- Payback
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake

Payback is an incredibly good attack for Forretress for a couple reasons. First off, it hammers pretty much every ghost-type for at least a 3HKO, most notably Rotom. It also 2KOs 252/0 Latias, which is pretty neat if it gets complacent and CMs.
 
Seven Deadly Sins said:
My most recent personal favorite gimmick is the following:

Forretress (M) @ Shed Shell
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP/112 Atk/144 Def
Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Spikes
- Payback
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake

Payback is an incredibly good attack for Forretress for a couple reasons. First off, it hammers pretty much every ghost-type for at least a 3HKO, most notably Rotom. It also 2KOs 252/0 Latias, which is pretty neat if it gets complacent and CMs.
Click to expand...

I used to run a gimmick Forretress as well, but used Zap Cannon rather than Payback. I'm not entirely sure if this counts as a gimmick, but it worked great for a surprise paralysis, especially considering the number of flying/levitating pokes that used to come in on me expecting earthquake. The only real problem with using the Zap Cannon was the accuracy, since that gives a 50% chance of missing and ruining the surprise for nothing.
 
Seven Deadly Sins said:
My most recent personal favorite gimmick is the following:

Forretress (M) @ Shed Shell
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP/112 Atk/144 Def
Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Spikes
- Payback
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake

Payback is an incredibly good attack for Forretress for a couple reasons. First off, it hammers pretty much every ghost-type for at least a 3HKO, most notably Rotom. It also 2KOs 252/0 Latias, which is pretty neat if it gets complacent and CMs.
Click to expand...

The problem is, a 3HKO on Rotom is pitiful, as he will OHKO you with HP Fire or Overheat, and likely 2HKO you with Discharge/Thunderbolt. I considered a similar idea, but discarded it when I realized that it wouldn't do a bit of real good.
 
wildfire393 said:
The problem is, a 3HKO on Rotom is pitiful, as he will OHKO you with HP Fire or Overheat, and likely 2HKO you with Discharge/Thunderbolt. I considered a similar idea, but discarded it when I realized that it wouldn't do a bit of real good.
Click to expand...

It's great against T-tar though. A friend caught with my pants down like that once. However, once you've used it the surprise is up.
 
I'm not 100% sure this is gimmicky enough for the thread, but it certainly helped me wonders when I bothered about my ranking:

Starmie @ Expert Belt
Timid 252 Speed / 252 Sp. Attack / 4 HP
Surf
Thunderbolt
Ice Beam
Hidden Power FIRE 70

First of all, no recovery after it has switched in ALWAYS led to my opponent thinking it was Scarfed or Specs and was something like a Trick Starmie. With this in mind, and Scizor being the most popular Pokemon around, it usually switched in to Starmie and tried to Pursuit/U-Turn while being OHKO'd by HP Fire, allowing my DDTar to sweep later on. This worked so many times I can't even begin to count them. I was also able to bluff a Scarf alot of times against +1 Gyarados's, or they would die, and bring in Salamence thinking I was stuck in Thunderbolt, only to be Ice Beamed to death.
 
Flygon @ Micle Berry
~Fissure
~Outrage/ Dragon Claw/ U-Turn
~Roost/ Earthquake/ U-Turn
~Substitute/ Endure

This is strictly for the battle tower because OHKO moves are usually banned. I chose Flygon cause it's one of the fast OHKO move users so it can pull off a Fissure after Micle Berry activates. Substitute/ Endure is there to activate the berry while you can Roost your HP back or U-turn out for scouting. This set is pretty gimmicky but seems viable in the battle tower.
 
Tried it out and it worked pretty well.


dpmfa319.png

OU Lead Sharpedo

Waterfall
Aqua Jet
Earthquake
Taunt/Hydro Pump/Crunch/ Ice Beam

Focus Sash
252 Attack/ 248 Speed +Attack Nature not anything - Speed or SpA if using mixed
Ev's and Nature can be changed to whatever you want. However at least 248EV's in Speed lets you outspeed Jolly Gyarados to Taunt it. You can change around speed ev's you want to be able to dump more into Special Attack

Damage Calcs using libelldras forge

Metagross 252 HP / 236 Atk / 12 Def / 8 Spe

Earthquake 45.05% - 53.30% ( 30.51% to 2HKO)
Waterfall/Crunch 27.20% - 32.14%
Hydro Pump 39.56% - 46.98%

If they use meteor mash or bullet punch rough skin takes its toll. Most will probably EQ you. Smart players will take their Metagross out if they used SR turn one.

Azelf 0 def 0 hp
Waterfall 62.89% - 74.23%
Aqau Jet 31.96% - 37.46%
63+32
Just missed out on the guaranteed KO. Crunch + Aqua jet will put you there
Watch out for U turn

Aerodactyl/Infernape
Waterfall + Aqua Jet doesn't even need a damage calculator
Infernape you can Aqua Jet after they break your sash to do 47.78% - 57.34%

Tyranitar
No idea what EV's to calculate for this thing. More often then not you will 2HKO with Waterfall

Jirachi
Same thing as above... not sure which sets to check against.

Heatran 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
EQ 133.33% - 158.02%
Shucca Berry 67.90% - 80.25%
Waterfall 79.63% - 94.44%
Aqua Jet 40.74% - 48.15%


Hippowdon 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SpD Impish
Hydro Pump with no Sp Att Evs (226) 68.57% - 81.43%
(Requires a Special Attack of 327 to guarantee OHKO Sharpedo maxes out with 317 so a OHKO is missed unless user has a life orb which takes away from the point of this set)
Waterfall 44.29% - 52.86%
Most of the time you will be KO'ing with a combination of the two attacks but hippowdon will likely switch out after it gets hit with hyrdo pump anyway.

Salamence
Ice Beam 83.38% - 99.09%
Aqua Jet -1 6.95% - 8.16%


Is this a worthy set in your opinions? I'll write up an analysis if it is. He currently has no lead set listed.
 
Wow that Sharpedo set looks incredibly useful, due to Rough Skin. It still seems like it would lose to LeadApe w/Fake Out though. Fake Out takes out both of your Sashes, but Infernape can OHKO with Close Combat while you do ~57% maximum. Against all other leads it looks effective tho.
 
The thing is i don't really see close combat on a lot of lead Infernapes despite it being the primary option in the analysis. U turn would definitely KO you after you sash is broken. Vacuum Wave also would do nasty things to you... The thing about Infernape is that he could concievably beat any lead but it just depends on what he is running.

Did some more calcs for fun.
Adamant Natured Sharpedo
Standard Azelf lead does 32.74% - 38.79% with fire blast.

Hmm theorymon situation.

Max attack life orb Scizor +0 does 50.53% - 59.79% with bullet punch so he's not going to be easily revenge KO'd by bullet punch anytime soon.

X-Scissor/U-turn or Brick Break/ Superpower will KO you if you have lost you sash

32 HP scizor takes 46.71% - 55.36% from Waterfall + 12.5% from rough skin if it attacks and then 10% from life orb.

Aqua Jet then does 23.18% - 28.03%.

47+12+10+23= 92 minimum. Rough skin or life orb recoil do the rest of the work ha ha ha

Also this lead will lose to machamp as well as it only does 42.45% - 50.26% with waterfall to 252 HP machamp
 
I've tried a Subbing DD Tyranitar on Shoddy.

It's set was:


Tyranitar @ Leftovers
Jolly
252 HP / 4 Attack / 252 Speed

Substitute
Dragon Dance
Stone Edge
Earthquake

101 Subs for the specific purpose of setting up on Blissey, and importantly, blocking status; one of the main reasons I chose it, since a paralyzed DDTar sucks. 252 Speed and Jolly to beat Timid Azelf, avoiding a Grass Knot or Hidden Power Fighting to the face. The remaining 4 EVs are placed into Attack. EdgeQuake provides good coverage, being only walled by Levitate Bronzong, Claydol, Flygon, Torterra, and Breloom.
 
Diploman said:
I've tried a Subbing DD Tyranitar on Shoddy.

It's set was:


Tyranitar @ Leftovers
Jolly
252 HP / 4 Attack / 252 Speed

Substitute
Dragon Dance
Stone Edge
Earthquake

101 Subs for the specific purpose of setting up on Blissey, and importantly, blocking status; one of the main reasons I chose it, since a paralyzed DDTar sucks. 252 Speed and Jolly to beat Timid Azelf, avoiding a Grass Knot or Hidden Power Fighting to the face. The remaining 4 EVs are placed into Attack. EdgeQuake provides good coverage, being only walled by Levitate Bronzong, Claydol, Flygon, Torterra, and Breloom.
Click to expand...

Try Ice Punch over EQ and you'll see all those pokes but Zong out of the picture. Although you might have problems with steels maybe fire punch or aqua tail.
 
Yeah, I know
Ice Punch + EQ might work too but no STAB means you lack the raw power.

My team has a Magnezone on it to remove steels from play, meaning Zong won't be too bad, unless Shed Shelled, meaning it won't do anything too bad to me due to no recovery.
 
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