I know what you mean, but blissy is kind of cheap. So I thought, 'okay, heres my alternative'.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
New and "creative" moveset/EV spread thread. Mk. 4
- Thread starter darkie
- Start date
- Status
That's not a good mentality to be in. In the metagame people use what works best, not what does not fit an arbitrary standard such as "cheapness".
Well why do people use dd dragonite over dd salamence?... I was only suggesting anyway...
There was a thread about this. Dragonite is bulkier and can survive Ice attacks with Roost and Light Screen.
As for the set, Icy Wind is nice, but you're better off using Jirachi with the same set and Vaporeon is better at Toxic stalling thanks to Water + Poison being stopped only by Empoleon and Tentacruel and the fact that he doesn't roll over and die when attacked.
Therefore, viable in NU, perhaps, but outclassed entirely in OU and probably UU.
After playing around in the Battle Factory, I got a Rain Dance Lombre, which had Fake Out, Rain Dance and Swift Swim to set up Rain Dance for the team. This inspired me to make a Rain Dance team based around it, and I found it works well in the current metagame dealing with quite a few leads. Although the set has been posted before in this thread by someone else, it wasn't really explained fully as to what the lead accomplished:
Ludicolo @ Damp Rock
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 120 HP/136 Spd/252 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Fake Out
- Rain Dance
- Grass Knot
- Surf / Hydro Pump
Like its brethren Electrode, Ludicolo can find a niche in becoming a Rain Dance lead. While Electrode has high speed and Taunt to help it set up, it struggles to deal and sort of damage to most other leads, particularly opponents holding Focus Sash. While Ludicolo maybe slower, he packs more bulk, some key resistances, Fake Out, as well as being able to come in later in the game to set up or abuse Rain Dance. He also poses much more of a threat to many common leads, such as Hippowdon and Swampert. He also possesses decent defences and good typing aiding him against common Steel-type leads.
Fake Out is his first move of choice, scouting switches, removing Focus Sash and dealing some damage. The next move depends on the opponent - Hippowdon and Swampert are OHKO'd by Grass Knot, while Gliscor is KO'd by Surf. Against a Suicide Leads, it is best to Rain Dance - most won't Taunt in fear of not getting their Stealth Rocks set up, and if they do, they are still KO'd by Surf, otherwise you have Rain Dance to abuse.
The EVs allow you to OHKO Hippowdon, Swampert and Gliscor with the appropriate moves, and outrun all Scarf Heatran in the Rain. If you wish to have more speed, you can increase his speed to 226 Spd (outruns +1 neutral 100s) or 232 speed (outruns +1 +Speed base 90s). The rest is place in HP to boost his ability to take hits.
Scizor is an excellent partner, as it takes care of Abomasnow and other Grass leads, while Bullet Punching Ninjask and Yanmega. Having something on the team while can absorb sleep is vital, however, generally a Rest Talker will only slow down a hyper-offensive team such as this. As usual, having other offensive Rain Dance abusers, such as Kingdra, Kabutops and Omastar around would be great, as they all have problems with bulky Waters, which Ludicolo has the tools to beat.
---
How it fairs against common leads:
It has done well if it: Knocks out Focus Sash, sets up Rain Dance, removes Hippowdon.
1 | Azelf | 7.47 - Fake Out removes Sash, sets up Rain Dance and KOs with Surf. If they Taunt, you don't KO, however with their Sash out they will want to set up SR - WIN, lose if they Taunt
2 | Metagross | 7.13 - Has to resort to Explosion or the rare Zen Headbutt, however most won't outrun unless they have speed EVs, and most Rain Dance teams don't mind Stealth Rocks anyway - WIN
3 | Jirachi | 5.27 - Tricky, if they Trick, then you lose your Damp Rock, however, they can't do much else to you. You can attack, but Water is quite easy to resist and set up on - LOSE generally.
4 | Swampert | 5.2 - Fake Out to scout the switch, and Grass Knot to OHKO. Then set up Rain Dance - WIN
5 | Aerodactyl | 4.84 - Easy win, Fake Out and set up Rain, or Surf it - WIN
6 | Infernape | 4.1 - Nape doesn't do much damage to you, but it Fake Outs first. You set up Rain if it doesn't have Taunt, but either way Nape doesn't do anything to Rain teams - WIN
7 | Hippowdon | 3.09 - Fake Out, and then OHKO with Grass Knot. Rain Dance removes his Sandstorm, - WIN
8 | Ninjask | 2.89 - You can't beat it or stop it setting up. A major threat to Rain Teams, I don't really know how to beat it with Ludi - LOSE
9 | Bronzong | 2.86 - Bronzong can't do anything but Explode or Hypnosis. You Fake Out, then set up Rain, which 3HKOs. The only reason to run Hydro Pump imo.
10 | Roserade | 2.43 - Fake Out desotrys the Focus Sash, but it will still Sleep you. Beat to pack a Sleep Absorber.
11 | Tyranitar | 2.38 - TTar doesn't stop you setting up Rain unless its a faster Choice variant - it can come back in later and remove your Rain. Double STAB Surf almost OHKOs it without its Sand tough.
12 | Smeargle | 2.35 - Again, the same as Roserade, however, you can't chance fate with the Sleep missing - LOSE
13 | Heatran | 1.99 - Easily beaten, as only Exploding will OHKO. Beware of Specs Overheat, as it does 113.60% - 134.14% damage - WIN usually.
14 | Gliscor | 1.77 - Easily beaten, however, Baton Pass Rock Polish sets will outrun you if you decide to set up Rain Dance. Those are rare, however - WIN
15 | Abomasnow | 1.6 - You can easily survive any of its attacks, however, you fail to deal and decent damage back. Set up and then leave this one to Scizor. - WIN
The leads it has most problems with are Ninjask, Jirachi, Yanmega, Roserade and Smeargle, which Rain Teams have problems with in general.
Ludicolo @ Damp Rock
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 120 HP/136 Spd/252 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Fake Out
- Rain Dance
- Grass Knot
- Surf / Hydro Pump
Like its brethren Electrode, Ludicolo can find a niche in becoming a Rain Dance lead. While Electrode has high speed and Taunt to help it set up, it struggles to deal and sort of damage to most other leads, particularly opponents holding Focus Sash. While Ludicolo maybe slower, he packs more bulk, some key resistances, Fake Out, as well as being able to come in later in the game to set up or abuse Rain Dance. He also poses much more of a threat to many common leads, such as Hippowdon and Swampert. He also possesses decent defences and good typing aiding him against common Steel-type leads.
Fake Out is his first move of choice, scouting switches, removing Focus Sash and dealing some damage. The next move depends on the opponent - Hippowdon and Swampert are OHKO'd by Grass Knot, while Gliscor is KO'd by Surf. Against a Suicide Leads, it is best to Rain Dance - most won't Taunt in fear of not getting their Stealth Rocks set up, and if they do, they are still KO'd by Surf, otherwise you have Rain Dance to abuse.
The EVs allow you to OHKO Hippowdon, Swampert and Gliscor with the appropriate moves, and outrun all Scarf Heatran in the Rain. If you wish to have more speed, you can increase his speed to 226 Spd (outruns +1 neutral 100s) or 232 speed (outruns +1 +Speed base 90s). The rest is place in HP to boost his ability to take hits.
Scizor is an excellent partner, as it takes care of Abomasnow and other Grass leads, while Bullet Punching Ninjask and Yanmega. Having something on the team while can absorb sleep is vital, however, generally a Rest Talker will only slow down a hyper-offensive team such as this. As usual, having other offensive Rain Dance abusers, such as Kingdra, Kabutops and Omastar around would be great, as they all have problems with bulky Waters, which Ludicolo has the tools to beat.
---
How it fairs against common leads:
It has done well if it: Knocks out Focus Sash, sets up Rain Dance, removes Hippowdon.
1 | Azelf | 7.47 - Fake Out removes Sash, sets up Rain Dance and KOs with Surf. If they Taunt, you don't KO, however with their Sash out they will want to set up SR - WIN, lose if they Taunt
2 | Metagross | 7.13 - Has to resort to Explosion or the rare Zen Headbutt, however most won't outrun unless they have speed EVs, and most Rain Dance teams don't mind Stealth Rocks anyway - WIN
3 | Jirachi | 5.27 - Tricky, if they Trick, then you lose your Damp Rock, however, they can't do much else to you. You can attack, but Water is quite easy to resist and set up on - LOSE generally.
4 | Swampert | 5.2 - Fake Out to scout the switch, and Grass Knot to OHKO. Then set up Rain Dance - WIN
5 | Aerodactyl | 4.84 - Easy win, Fake Out and set up Rain, or Surf it - WIN
6 | Infernape | 4.1 - Nape doesn't do much damage to you, but it Fake Outs first. You set up Rain if it doesn't have Taunt, but either way Nape doesn't do anything to Rain teams - WIN
7 | Hippowdon | 3.09 - Fake Out, and then OHKO with Grass Knot. Rain Dance removes his Sandstorm, - WIN
8 | Ninjask | 2.89 - You can't beat it or stop it setting up. A major threat to Rain Teams, I don't really know how to beat it with Ludi - LOSE
9 | Bronzong | 2.86 - Bronzong can't do anything but Explode or Hypnosis. You Fake Out, then set up Rain, which 3HKOs. The only reason to run Hydro Pump imo.
10 | Roserade | 2.43 - Fake Out desotrys the Focus Sash, but it will still Sleep you. Beat to pack a Sleep Absorber.
11 | Tyranitar | 2.38 - TTar doesn't stop you setting up Rain unless its a faster Choice variant - it can come back in later and remove your Rain. Double STAB Surf almost OHKOs it without its Sand tough.
12 | Smeargle | 2.35 - Again, the same as Roserade, however, you can't chance fate with the Sleep missing - LOSE
13 | Heatran | 1.99 - Easily beaten, as only Exploding will OHKO. Beware of Specs Overheat, as it does 113.60% - 134.14% damage - WIN usually.
14 | Gliscor | 1.77 - Easily beaten, however, Baton Pass Rock Polish sets will outrun you if you decide to set up Rain Dance. Those are rare, however - WIN
15 | Abomasnow | 1.6 - You can easily survive any of its attacks, however, you fail to deal and decent damage back. Set up and then leave this one to Scizor. - WIN
The leads it has most problems with are Ninjask, Jirachi, Yanmega, Roserade and Smeargle, which Rain Teams have problems with in general.
Anthrix I'm not quite sure how you can call it a good lead when the other pokemon manages to get up rocks AND kill you and you just set up Rain Dance which could be done by something better without dying probably =/
Although it does sound like a cool idea so good luck :D
And after some more testing I'm going to post a Minun set I've come up with (hypocrisy! lol)
Although it does sound like a cool idea so good luck :D
And after some more testing I'm going to post a Minun set I've come up with (hypocrisy! lol)
Couldn't Lum be an option on that Ludicolo set? It would let you set up rain against Roserade, Smeargle, and Bronzong with Hypnosis. If you had Ice Beam, you could also beat lead Roserade, and you could also beat lead Bronzong (if you choose to run Hydro Pump) quite often (taking into account the poor accuracy of both Hydro Pump and Hypnosis). So, the set could look something more like this.
Ludicolo@Damp Rock/Lum Berry
120 HP/ 252 SpA/ 136 SpE
Modest Nature
Swift Swim
- Fake Out
- Rain Dance
- Surf/ Hydro Pump
- Grass Knot/ Ice Beam
You could say that Damp Rock goes with Surf and Grass Knot, and Lum Berry with Hydro Pump and Ice Beam. The only Lead you would now do worse against is Swampert, but that is somewhat irrevelant, and any half-decent player would switch Swampert out of Ludicolo. You might also miss with Hydro Pump 20% of the time, but taking out Bronzong is better than leaving an Azelf with it's Sash busted for a Rain Dance team. Good Luck with the set, though.
Ludicolo@Damp Rock/Lum Berry
120 HP/ 252 SpA/ 136 SpE
Modest Nature
Swift Swim
- Fake Out
- Rain Dance
- Surf/ Hydro Pump
- Grass Knot/ Ice Beam
You could say that Damp Rock goes with Surf and Grass Knot, and Lum Berry with Hydro Pump and Ice Beam. The only Lead you would now do worse against is Swampert, but that is somewhat irrevelant, and any half-decent player would switch Swampert out of Ludicolo. You might also miss with Hydro Pump 20% of the time, but taking out Bronzong is better than leaving an Azelf with it's Sash busted for a Rain Dance team. Good Luck with the set, though.
OK, so against Metagross he can set up Rocks and Explodes, which is why I pack Rotom-A in the wings anyway. Azelf is beaten, Aero is beaten, Swampert is beaten, Heatran is beaten, and alot of other leads just don't have the raw power to 2HKO it. Sure, alot of leads can run surprise Specs / Bands sets, but generally, the standard leads can't beat it without Exploding, allowing you to take out their sash and successfully set up Rain Dance, and actually do something with it. Thats the point of a leading Ludicolo. Common Rain Dance leads are Electrode, Azelf, Jirachi, Bronzong and sometimes Zapdos, and none of those can actually abuse it outside of Thunder. The suicide leads also have to make the difficult decision between Focus Sash or Rain Dance and the choice between 8-turn rain or being able to attack. An offensive lead, albeit somewhat rare, will just rip those to shreds, and so won't you'll only get down Rocks or set Rain up. And Rocks don't really hinder Rain Dance teams too much, as its mostly Spikes and Toxic Spikes which are the problems. And unlike Electrode and Azelf, Ludicolo can come back in later, and puts pressure on bulky Waters, which Rain Dance has problems with. That and a Suicide lead will often put you at 6-5 at the start of the match - Ludicolo is bulky enough to come in later on.
Lum Berry is certainly interesting, as it means it can beat Smeargle and Roserade, although you lose the important 8-turn Rain. I tried Hydro Pump as well, and it doesn't get any extra KOs that you wouldn't do with Surf, so I left it out. Grass Knot is the reason to use Ludicolo over other Swift Swimmers, as it is something no other Rain Dance abuser has, as it allows it to effectively deal with bulky Waters.
I might consider slashing Ice Beam over Fake Out, although I'm really unsure - atm the number 1 lead is Azelf, so Fake Out more useful (beating it one on one is great). Ice Beam allows it hit Latias and Grasses, but everything else in Rain Dance can hit those hard with Ice Beam being so common on Water-types.
Flygon is not guaranteed to outspeed +1 positive Salamence (and he mentioned Salamence in his post) sharing the same 100 base Spe. Latias, instead, can revenge kill Salamence and the other Pokemon he mentioned, but with way better overall defences and typing. Latias can actually switch into Gyarados - being resistant to water - while Flygon takes over 50% from it if Gyara attacks insted of using DD.
Many people have been arguing in the Plusle or Minun argument, and I said that you should only use Minun when you're using its 'bulk'. So to prove my point I made a Minun set!
I present:
Magnet Rise Passer Minun
Minun @ Leftovers
Nature: Calm
EVs: 72hp/216Sp.def/220Spe
- Thunder Wave
- Magnet Rise
- Agility/Nasty Plot
- Baton Pass
Although not as exciting as Plusle, this Minun (when given a smidgen of a chance) WILL be able to pass an Agility. To put this in perspective, this 60/50/85 mouse can use Scarftran to pass an Agility and Magnet Rise relatively easily - not many can achieve this feat!
The best situation is if you catch Scarftran on the switch, paralysing - and thus crippling - it with Thunder Wave. You should then proceed to Magnet Rise to avoid the incoming Earth Power. Heatran will then 99% of the time switch out, giving you time to Agility. With only a single Agility Minun outspeeds everything in OU, allowing it to safely Baton Pass away. Nasty Plot is also an option, capitalising on one of Minun's rare traits of baton passing +2 Special Attack. However, there is a chance your Baton Pass pursuits may be cut short due to you not outspeeding certain threats that you would with an Agility.
However, this set can also directly confront Scarftran; although lacking the defenses to switch in, Minun only takes a puny 68% from Earth Power. Although this sounds like a lot, it is enough to start you baton pass with ease. This Minun also takes only 38% from a Scarved Gengar's Shadow Ball, allowing you to cripple it and pass an Agility. Minun also outspeeds the standard 'Defensive Gliscor' set - even without an Agility.
Since Minun has no weaknesses after it has used Magnet Rise, it is difficult to define what exactly is a good recipient for Magnet Rise and an Agility. I have used a Metagross to reasonable success, with Ice Punch over Agility to defeat Flygon (who incidentally cannot do much to you without being able to use its beloved STAB Earthquake) and Salamence.
It definitely isn't as exciting and creative as Plusle, but it's still fun to play. Thanks for reading all the way through (if you actually did)! :D
I present:
Magnet Rise Passer Minun
Minun @ Leftovers
Nature: Calm
EVs: 72hp/216Sp.def/220Spe
- Thunder Wave
- Magnet Rise
- Agility/Nasty Plot
- Baton Pass
Although not as exciting as Plusle, this Minun (when given a smidgen of a chance) WILL be able to pass an Agility. To put this in perspective, this 60/50/85 mouse can use Scarftran to pass an Agility and Magnet Rise relatively easily - not many can achieve this feat!
The best situation is if you catch Scarftran on the switch, paralysing - and thus crippling - it with Thunder Wave. You should then proceed to Magnet Rise to avoid the incoming Earth Power. Heatran will then 99% of the time switch out, giving you time to Agility. With only a single Agility Minun outspeeds everything in OU, allowing it to safely Baton Pass away. Nasty Plot is also an option, capitalising on one of Minun's rare traits of baton passing +2 Special Attack. However, there is a chance your Baton Pass pursuits may be cut short due to you not outspeeding certain threats that you would with an Agility.
However, this set can also directly confront Scarftran; although lacking the defenses to switch in, Minun only takes a puny 68% from Earth Power. Although this sounds like a lot, it is enough to start you baton pass with ease. This Minun also takes only 38% from a Scarved Gengar's Shadow Ball, allowing you to cripple it and pass an Agility. Minun also outspeeds the standard 'Defensive Gliscor' set - even without an Agility.
Since Minun has no weaknesses after it has used Magnet Rise, it is difficult to define what exactly is a good recipient for Magnet Rise and an Agility. I have used a Metagross to reasonable success, with Ice Punch over Agility to defeat Flygon (who incidentally cannot do much to you without being able to use its beloved STAB Earthquake) and Salamence.
It definitely isn't as exciting and creative as Plusle, but it's still fun to play. Thanks for reading all the way through (if you actually did)! :D
How about this one, its based on empoleon's sub, agility and petaya set.
Species-Torterra
Nature-Adamant
Abillity-Overgrow
Held Item-Leichi Berry
EV's-252speed, 252atk, 6hp
Moves-
Substitute
Rock polish
Seed bomb
Stone edge/earthquake
Could work quite nicely as a late game sweeper (again similar to empoleon)
Try and keep bronzong/skarmory out the way though :/
Species-Torterra
Nature-Adamant
Abillity-Overgrow
Held Item-Leichi Berry
EV's-252speed, 252atk, 6hp
Moves-
Substitute
Rock polish
Seed bomb
Stone edge/earthquake
Could work quite nicely as a late game sweeper (again similar to empoleon)
Try and keep bronzong/skarmory out the way though :/
That has already been posted and discussed, Redpebbles.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2107650&postcount=667
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2107650&postcount=667
A Machamp that I have been using on Shoddy with Great succees. It's edited on One of Smogon's bulky sets, I call It "TankChamp"
Machamp @ Lefties
Adamant | No Guard
252 Hp 20 SpDef 176 Def 56 Att
-Dynamic Punch
-Ice Punch
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
While the set is pretty much same, this has few nice points. This will always survive Modest max SpAtt Life Orb Draco Meteor from Salamence, and can OHKO back with Ice Punch. (Stealth Rock makes this sure)At same time, this can also survive an Jolly YacheChomp Earthquake after SD, and Ice Punch him for lots of damage (With Yache, OHKO is not sure). This still packs lot of punch in form of 339 Attack stat, and nevermissing always confusing attack.
Glaceon @ Life Orb / Choice Scarf
Timid / Modest | Snow Cloak (Timid with Scarf, Modest with LO)
4 Hp 252 Spd 252 SpAtt
-Ice beam
-HP Fighting / Hp Electric
-Shadow Ball
-Sleep Talk
Glaceon is one of the few pokemon that has the amazing ability to OHKO YacheChomp with Ice beam, and carry Speedboosting nature. Glaceon also has great defense paired with fantastic SpAtt. Ice beam is the general attacking move. Timid Glaceon with 248 EVs (Who uses that little?) in SpAtt guarantees OHKO to 4 Hp / 0 SpDef YacheChomp. With Modest this is clearer. Hidden powers type is important: With Hp Fighting, modest And LO You can 2HKO 252 Hp / 4 Spdef Tyranitar in Sandstorm. This is THE main reason to us LO and Modest. Hp Electric is your most powerful tool against Gyarados and other Waters that come in excepting an Ice beam.
Because the lack of movepool, Sleep Talk is in the last slot. This makes this like Special version of STalker Hera. You can now absorb Sleep with this.
Is often advisable to pass some speed to Glaceon, because it has lacluser basespeed of 65. But scarf can fix that. Timid is needed, because otherwise even Timid Gengar will be faster. This reaches 376 speed, enough to outspeed +nature base 120, and standard Modest ScarfTran (This is tight, Heatran with Modest Max speed has 253 Speed stat before Scarf, Glaceon has 251, but Heatran will usually not max this, due to the fact even with lowering speed EVs, he will outspeed base 120s). Ninjask is great tool to pass speed. It attracts ice moves, which are the ones that Glaceon resist.
Glaceon can survive Jolly YacheChomps Outrage and OHKO back with Ice beam.
Counters: Steeltypes, who resist Glaceons STAB moves and Shadow Ball. The main goodness is Lucario. it can come in to everything bar Hp Fighting, and threaten KO with Close Combat or Bullet Punch. Or even worse, it can swords Dance if it switches to Ice beam.
Blissey will wall this, no matter what. (CritHax freeze is really the only way)
Ofcourse, no use if Garchomp remains uber.
Machamp @ Lefties
Adamant | No Guard
252 Hp 20 SpDef 176 Def 56 Att
-Dynamic Punch
-Ice Punch
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
While the set is pretty much same, this has few nice points. This will always survive Modest max SpAtt Life Orb Draco Meteor from Salamence, and can OHKO back with Ice Punch. (Stealth Rock makes this sure)At same time, this can also survive an Jolly YacheChomp Earthquake after SD, and Ice Punch him for lots of damage (With Yache, OHKO is not sure). This still packs lot of punch in form of 339 Attack stat, and nevermissing always confusing attack.
Glaceon @ Life Orb / Choice Scarf
Timid / Modest | Snow Cloak (Timid with Scarf, Modest with LO)
4 Hp 252 Spd 252 SpAtt
-Ice beam
-HP Fighting / Hp Electric
-Shadow Ball
-Sleep Talk
Glaceon is one of the few pokemon that has the amazing ability to OHKO YacheChomp with Ice beam, and carry Speedboosting nature. Glaceon also has great defense paired with fantastic SpAtt. Ice beam is the general attacking move. Timid Glaceon with 248 EVs (Who uses that little?) in SpAtt guarantees OHKO to 4 Hp / 0 SpDef YacheChomp. With Modest this is clearer. Hidden powers type is important: With Hp Fighting, modest And LO You can 2HKO 252 Hp / 4 Spdef Tyranitar in Sandstorm. This is THE main reason to us LO and Modest. Hp Electric is your most powerful tool against Gyarados and other Waters that come in excepting an Ice beam.
Because the lack of movepool, Sleep Talk is in the last slot. This makes this like Special version of STalker Hera. You can now absorb Sleep with this.
Is often advisable to pass some speed to Glaceon, because it has lacluser basespeed of 65. But scarf can fix that. Timid is needed, because otherwise even Timid Gengar will be faster. This reaches 376 speed, enough to outspeed +nature base 120, and standard Modest ScarfTran (This is tight, Heatran with Modest Max speed has 253 Speed stat before Scarf, Glaceon has 251, but Heatran will usually not max this, due to the fact even with lowering speed EVs, he will outspeed base 120s). Ninjask is great tool to pass speed. It attracts ice moves, which are the ones that Glaceon resist.
Glaceon can survive Jolly YacheChomps Outrage and OHKO back with Ice beam.
Counters: Steeltypes, who resist Glaceons STAB moves and Shadow Ball. The main goodness is Lucario. it can come in to everything bar Hp Fighting, and threaten KO with Close Combat or Bullet Punch. Or even worse, it can swords Dance if it switches to Ice beam.
Blissey will wall this, no matter what. (CritHax freeze is really the only way)
Ofcourse, no use if Garchomp remains uber.
That Minun set looks pretty cool, especially since it resists Bullet Punch, and Extremespeed from Adamant LO Lucario manages 81% maximum, not even a OHKO with Stealth Rock factored in. I might have to try that set, considering Minun is easily the coolest of the electric rodents(note my sig, pikachu line sucks).
It is cool, however (although I haven't ran calcs) Bullet Punch does a significant number regardless of the resistance. And you aren't getting anywhere being 2HKO'd with E-Speed.
This is mainly for use against special attackers, although a physical spread could be found. Then again is 60/50 really worth it =/
Thanks for the nice comments though guys! :D
EDIT: Ah right
No, you see, priority is a huge issue with baton passing speed, as your opponent can switch out of their ScarfTran and Extremespeed. My point is that once you have the Agility you are guaranteed to pass it, which is good. I wasn't suggesting setting up on Lucario or Scizor in the slightest.
He was saying that after taking the 60 odd percent from Earthpower, your opponent will switch to their Scizor or Lucario and priority as you either Magnet Rise or Agility, stopping you from passing anything. Could work if you use something like DD Mence first to draw out their priority user so you can take care of it before putting Minun in the battle.
Exactly. I did mention that this was more late game right? I have now at least :D
I find that Minun set pretty intresting.
A problem I see with the Minun set, is that a Heatran user will probaly just use Flamethrower, as with SR, Minun is always 2HKOed by that.
Not only that, I can't think of much of a reason as to why a pokemon would be afraid of Minun and swap to Heatran or something
Aside from that, you would be better off using Agility rather than T-wave on the resulting switch in, since Ground types would be a typical swap in. Then, you can drop T-wave for encore.
With encore, you can force a non-choiced pokemon who used a Ground attack against your Magnet Rise last turn to continue using that ground attack, allowing Minun or your recipient more set-up time. Encore will help against slower supporting pokes also.
And if you don't like Encore you could drop it for Nasty Plot so you can pass 2 stat boosts, but thats really risky.
A problem I see with the Minun set, is that a Heatran user will probaly just use Flamethrower, as with SR, Minun is always 2HKOed by that.
Not only that, I can't think of much of a reason as to why a pokemon would be afraid of Minun and swap to Heatran or something
Aside from that, you would be better off using Agility rather than T-wave on the resulting switch in, since Ground types would be a typical swap in. Then, you can drop T-wave for encore.
With encore, you can force a non-choiced pokemon who used a Ground attack against your Magnet Rise last turn to continue using that ground attack, allowing Minun or your recipient more set-up time. Encore will help against slower supporting pokes also.
And if you don't like Encore you could drop it for Nasty Plot so you can pass 2 stat boosts, but thats really risky.
I just looked through Minun's moveset, it learns Wish. It could be possible to pass a Wish, or even use it on yourself. Who knew Minun was so versatile. (Although if wish passing was your primary objective, Minun is ouclassed :/)
Wish seems nice, but Minun just is not bulky enough to utilize it well enough, and encounters a bit of a 4 slot syndrome.
In fact, I realized that if you are not using Encore or Nasty Plot, then Jolteon can run the exact same moveset and vastly outclass Minun.
Holy crap, you guys are lazy.
CB Scizor's BP vs. Minun:
591 Atk vs 116 Def & 279 HP (60 Base Power): 164 - 193 (58.78% - 69.18%)
LO Scizor's BP vs. Minun:
394 Atk vs 116 Def & 279 HP (60 Base Power): 142 - 168 (50.90% - 60.22%)
CB max attack +nature Metagross's BP vs. Minun:
607 Atk vs 116 Def & 279 HP (40 Base Power): 112 - 132 (40.14% - 47.31%)
LO max attack +nature Lucario's ExtremeSpeed vs. Minun:
350 Atk vs 116 Def & 279 HP (80 Base Power): 225 - 265 (80.65% - 94.98%)
LO max attack neutral nature "____________________" :
319 Atk vs 116 Def & 279 HP (80 Base Power): 204 - 241 (73.12% - 86.38%)
CB Scizor's BP vs. Minun:
591 Atk vs 116 Def & 279 HP (60 Base Power): 164 - 193 (58.78% - 69.18%)
LO Scizor's BP vs. Minun:
394 Atk vs 116 Def & 279 HP (60 Base Power): 142 - 168 (50.90% - 60.22%)
CB max attack +nature Metagross's BP vs. Minun:
607 Atk vs 116 Def & 279 HP (40 Base Power): 112 - 132 (40.14% - 47.31%)
LO max attack +nature Lucario's ExtremeSpeed vs. Minun:
350 Atk vs 116 Def & 279 HP (80 Base Power): 225 - 265 (80.65% - 94.98%)
LO max attack neutral nature "____________________" :
319 Atk vs 116 Def & 279 HP (80 Base Power): 204 - 241 (73.12% - 86.38%)
People are just surprised that Minun can survive an attack.
- Status