The diference between Doryuuzu and Sandslash is that Sandslash in the SS can be killed revenge without priority, and for now if you don`t have Breloom or Roobushin (or other decent user of Mach Punch, Acua Jet or Vacuum Wave) or have them killed/asleep, you can be sure that a +2 Doryuuzu in SS can do a good damage to your team, i think that for now it perhaps must not be banned, but it must be tested now and perhaps it must be tested in the 2nd test, if even with other pokemon banned it is even so powerful perhaps we must ban it...
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- Thread starter Philip7086
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The diference between Doryuuzu and Sandslash is that Sandslash in the SS can be killed revenge without priority, and for now if you don`t have Breloom or Roobushin (or other decent user of Mach Punch, Acua Jet or Vacuum Wave) or have them killed/asleep, you can be sure that a +2 Doryuuzu in SS can do a good damage to your team, i think that for now it perhaps must not be banned, but it must be tested now and perhaps it must be tested in the 2nd test, if even with other pokemon banned it is even so powerful perhaps we must ban it...
After playing this for quite some time I came to realize that 3 pokes seem to always destory teams.
Darkrai - the new sleep mechanic makes darkrai OMG.
Doryuuzu- if u dont have a scarf flygon or a solid priority users good luck.
Latios- Choice specs just make him HIT WAYY TOOO HARD.
Skyman- Airslash, seed flare + seren grace = rage quite.
Deoxys-a
should only really be the form that gets banned.
-- pokes that should stay---
Garchomp = highly average now
Salamenace- not as big as a threat anymore.
Mew-yes its a bitch with bp. but Its stats are just like vicitini etc. Also this thing gets shut down by a shitload.
Darkrai - the new sleep mechanic makes darkrai OMG.
Doryuuzu- if u dont have a scarf flygon or a solid priority users good luck.
Latios- Choice specs just make him HIT WAYY TOOO HARD.
Skyman- Airslash, seed flare + seren grace = rage quite.
Deoxys-a
should only really be the form that gets banned.
-- pokes that should stay---
Garchomp = highly average now
Salamenace- not as big as a threat anymore.
Mew-yes its a bitch with bp. but Its stats are just like vicitini etc. Also this thing gets shut down by a shitload.
Lol, theres not much that outspeeds sandslash that doesn't outspeed Dory. Sandslash outspeeds max speed scarfchomp, who is that fastest common scarfer. Anything faster than chomp will outspeed sandslash though.
And there are pokemon who can switch in upon the SD and take care of Dory other than those two. For example, Skarmory, Rankurusu (defensive versions aren't ohko'd by x-scizzor), Balloon heatran, balloon terakion. And if you say, what if they're eliminated, well anything does massive damage and/or sweeps if it's checks and counters are eliminated.
and also, you can't take out sandslash with priority thanks to no fighting weak, unless it's already been weakened.
While my team has Breloom, it is a subseed varient w/out mach punch or technician. I have never had problems with Dory. I usually lose a poke and then win. Here is how it goes. Dory hits the field. I switch in scizor or Flygon on the SD/EQ. If Scizor I bullet punch to pop the Baloon. If Flygon I uturn out to pop the Baloon. Ditto comes in on the rock slide or free from Scizors death and kills Dory and sweeps. A scarf Dory could work almost as well as Ditto.
He can be dealt with.
Inconsistent is far harder.
Sandslash can be almost as nasty as Doryuuzu
0hp/0def Sandslash survives choice banded Azumarill aqua jet. Adamant +2 Sandslash/Jolly life orb Sandslash will also OHKO back SR support is assumed, but regardles if Azumarill switches in after sandstorm damage he'll die.
No fighting weakness.
+2 Sandslash OHKO's 252 hp Roob after sandstorm or rocks damage. Roob can't OHKO. Roob can fight back (not ohko) to an extent but it's all dependant on boththeir ev's.
Sandslash can take punishment Doryuuzu can't so while Doryuuzu's main defense...is having a good offense, Sandslash isn't much of an inferior.
Sandslash is going under the radar but if Dory leaves SS will take his place, and if Dory stays Sand slash will just rape the lower tier he's put in.
If Dory stays...well
+2 Sandslash (some depends on item) still can beat
Breloom - Poison Jab
Roob (Ohko after SR/SS dmg) - Earthquake
Azumarill (ohko after SR/SS dmg) - Earthquake
You could probably run slash & dory and be pretty comfortable with yourself...but I don't recall Slash being released from dream world :)
0hp/0def Sandslash survives choice banded Azumarill aqua jet. Adamant +2 Sandslash/Jolly life orb Sandslash will also OHKO back SR support is assumed, but regardles if Azumarill switches in after sandstorm damage he'll die.
No fighting weakness.
+2 Sandslash OHKO's 252 hp Roob after sandstorm or rocks damage. Roob can't OHKO. Roob can fight back (not ohko) to an extent but it's all dependant on boththeir ev's.
Sandslash can take punishment Doryuuzu can't so while Doryuuzu's main defense...is having a good offense, Sandslash isn't much of an inferior.
Sandslash is going under the radar but if Dory leaves SS will take his place, and if Dory stays Sand slash will just rape the lower tier he's put in.
If Dory stays...well
+2 Sandslash (some depends on item) still can beat
Breloom - Poison Jab
Roob (Ohko after SR/SS dmg) - Earthquake
Azumarill (ohko after SR/SS dmg) - Earthquake
You could probably run slash & dory and be pretty comfortable with yourself...but I don't recall Slash being released from dream world :)
Unlike Doryuuzu, Sandslash doesn't have:
- Epic Speed - Well, its Speed is still good after Sand Throw, I guess, but 502 is a huge difference to 604. You can now be outsped by Deoxys-S, Scarf Lati@s, Scarf Skymin and all that other stuff that Dory can just laugh at.
- Less power - Well, Sandslash is pretty much forced to run Life Orb, otherwise it's not very powerful at all. With LO, he doesn't have the option of running resist berries and stuff like that
- No Steel typing - Yes, I know that means no Fighting-weak, which is big plus, but it also means no epic resistances. Dory could set up on stuff like -2 Draco Meteor from Specs Latios, but Sandslash would still take a huge hit from it. No Steel typing also means Sandslash is affected by Toxic, which means Skarmory now has a legitimate way hurting you now.
While Doryuuzu can switch-in and set up in many normal, electric, poison, flying, psychic, bug, rock, ghost, dragon, dark and steel attacks (11 resistances/immunities, 12 if it have a balloon), Sandslash can switch-in electric, poison and rock (3 resistances/immunities), this is the difference..., i think that a pokemon that can switch in a weak Outrage, instantly gain a SS speed boost (enough for outspeeding even scarfed 130 base speed pokemon) and set up SD, having a x4 resistance to SR, is a few broken. Do not think it you too?, and it is the only steel type of all the pokemon that boost their speed with the weather, and it can`t be paralyzed by T-wave (Slash can`t be too, but it can be outspeed by a Politoed or some scarfers), i think that not everyone can have a Ropushin, Breloom or Skarmory in a team (and even if you have them, nothing ensures you that they can`t be crippled or killed in the battle).
Not when he's cradling a balloon, he can't. With an Earth Plate, Sandslash's EQ is about equal to dory's and his stone edge is more powerful than dory's rock slide. This means that he matches up against skarm better (especially if he's running LO over Earth Plate)- although he can't 2hko without SR damage, and then you'd need +2 LO adamant to have a guaranteed 2hko after SR.
Skymin's probably being banned now so that just leaves deoxys-s and scarf lati@s- which I haven't seen many of recently. Scarf Sazandora has stolen their spots, with a valuable move in u-turn and better potential to go mixed. Only other things I can think of in the 105+ speed range that might scarf themselves are Jaroda and gengar- and I'm not sure if gengar ohko's (or will even be OU this gen). I guess there might be the occasional trickscarf azelf or starmie as well.
I find the ability to switch sandslash in upon physical attacks (especially superpower since that nerfs their attack and is used frequently against ttar) a very large boon for sandslash.
There are many more counters/checks for doryuuzu than that.
List of less-mentioned dory counters:
Balloon Tran
Balloon Terakion
Birijion
Scarf Gardevoir
Defensive Rankurusu
MH Sableye (unreleased)
Bronzong
Balloon Empoleon
Any water-type with a balloon, somewhat specialized if it doesn't have another reason to run it
I'm pretty sure gyarados (and even Mence) can take a +1 Rock slide and ohko in return with waterfall/flamethrower
Any fighting type with a balloon (once again, specialized)
And ANYTHING will sweep if its counters and checks are already dead.
Funny.
I get 119.1% - 140.1%. And that's without LO/EP.
^That's with +2 jolly
With a LO boost, Sandslash's EQ is stronger than balloon dory's. With EP, it's about the same (slightly, very slightly, weaker I think).
EDIT: oh you didn't give him +2. Still, he's usually sding on the switch, so unless thats scarf starmie... Anyway, you basicly need xscizzor for lati@s, and that's not much weaker than adamant EQ.
There is this cool new invention called a bulky water. I think they're getting kinda popular. Sandslash lacks the power to bust through them
Then neither does balloon dory. What do you guys not understand about LO Sandslash being MORE POWERFUL than Balloon Dory, the most common Dory set. It's main drawback is it's just a tiny bit slower.
And since Dory's such a problem, I guess it must be able to get through these so-called bulky waters. And if it can't then neither it nor Sandslash is really so Uber (which is what I'm saying- how did this turn into a Dory vs Sandslash argument anyway?).
You missed out the best Dory check. Balloon Magnezone. Not only does it beat Dory (barring Rock Slide flinch), but Dory can't even switch out to save itself.
Just because it's the most common set doesn't mean it's the only set. LO Dory is WAY stronger than Sandslash, and Baloon is more useful
Guys, you know Dory can use Brick Break...
And do little to no damage to everything
@Darkrai: Though I definitely feel that this thing should be sent to Ubers, I have found that a Lum Berry Ttar with Superpower owns it every single time.
@Dory: Please. Anything with a Focus Sash or decent HP/Defense and a single SE move owns it. Yeah, I've tested Balloon Dory and swept a few Teams with him (they sucked, though, so big whoop; Life Orb Swords Dance Bullet Punch Scizor could have done the same to those same teams since the LAST decade), but my Focus Sash Water Absorb Cacturne with Revenge just destroyed him every time. Heck, just use that Berry that lets you go first when you're at low HP; there are definitely answers to this guy.
@Skymin: I feel somewhat cheap using my beefy Flinchkiss, but at least he takes a turn to set up, can't affect fast Ground-types very well, and can't learn Seed Flare, which is utter crap. I refuse to even touch this thing; complete Ubers material.
@Manaphy: Ridiculous. The horrifying love-child of a DD Dragonite and a Surf Milotic, this thing takes SE attacks and laughs them off while wasting you in the face with tons more options than it has a right to have. Makes Rain Teams SOOOOO hard to beat. "Oh, I'm sorry; was that a STAB Thunder you just nailed me with? I hadn't noticed. Eat Tail Glow-powered death, bitch."
@Inconsistent: No, thanks. Wouldn't find this Ability in any way fun to play with, against, or nearby in-game, on-line, or even in Ubers. IMHO, we should all just act like it doesn't exist. Sub/Ingrain or Spore/Protect/Baton Pass Smeargle isn't a strategy; it's Action Replay for Competitive Play. "Press A to Win!" :S
@Dory: Please. Anything with a Focus Sash or decent HP/Defense and a single SE move owns it. Yeah, I've tested Balloon Dory and swept a few Teams with him (they sucked, though, so big whoop; Life Orb Swords Dance Bullet Punch Scizor could have done the same to those same teams since the LAST decade), but my Focus Sash Water Absorb Cacturne with Revenge just destroyed him every time. Heck, just use that Berry that lets you go first when you're at low HP; there are definitely answers to this guy.
@Skymin: I feel somewhat cheap using my beefy Flinchkiss, but at least he takes a turn to set up, can't affect fast Ground-types very well, and can't learn Seed Flare, which is utter crap. I refuse to even touch this thing; complete Ubers material.
@Manaphy: Ridiculous. The horrifying love-child of a DD Dragonite and a Surf Milotic, this thing takes SE attacks and laughs them off while wasting you in the face with tons more options than it has a right to have. Makes Rain Teams SOOOOO hard to beat. "Oh, I'm sorry; was that a STAB Thunder you just nailed me with? I hadn't noticed. Eat Tail Glow-powered death, bitch."
@Inconsistent: No, thanks. Wouldn't find this Ability in any way fun to play with, against, or nearby in-game, on-line, or even in Ubers. IMHO, we should all just act like it doesn't exist. Sub/Ingrain or Spore/Protect/Baton Pass Smeargle isn't a strategy; it's Action Replay for Competitive Play. "Press A to Win!" :S
Magnet Rise as they Rock Slide, then HP fire until it's dead.
That's still a huge disadvantage, as it piles up more checks to the list. And with lower speed, more Scarfmons can take you on. With Slash, you have to choose between cripplingly low speed and some wallbreaking power or mediocre speed with no wallbreaking power. >_> If it really held a candle to Doryuuzu (which it doesn't), more people would be using it. I'd certainly face Slash before Dory if it means I can get a wall or bulky sweeper in on him and KO.
EDIT:
This statement is also a load of bull btw. The problem is that when considering Slash is 35 base Att weaker than Doryuuzu, he has way more checks and counters than Doryuuzu does.
For example, consider X-Scizzor on a defensive Celebi: 69.3% - 82.2%
Now let's try it with Adamant LO Doryuuzu: 95% - 111.9% (on top of that, defensive Celebi can't KO back with a Grass move).
Most Doryuuzu run Jolly Balloon. And if you remove everything that can counter or check something and get a chance to set it up, of course it sweeps.
And yes, some scarfers can take on sandslash, but they are few and far between. Base 105 speed is already very good, most pokes above that usually don't go scarfed.
The main reasons people use Doryuuzu over sandslash is becuase:
1) Sandslash loses 1v1 to balloon Doryuuzu- the same reason most people run jolly balloon doryuuzu
2) Hype over hi s135 base attack, new pokemon, etc. Sandslash kinda fell by the wayside.
I've used both, and I found I preferred Sandslash.
Also, a list of pokes who can check Dory but not sandslash:
Roobushin
Infernape
Technitop
Anything else with mach punch and decent attack, and stab
Lucario
Skarmory (sandslash has possible 2hko with life orb and jolly after SD and SR)
Sandslash but not Dory:
Celebi
Lati@s
Scarfers 105 base speed+
Probably Tangrowth, and other defensive grass types (Celebi itself is rare this gen, let alone other grassers).
You're also overlooking the fact that while Doryuuzu's stab move is stronger, Sandslash's rock move is stronger.
And about the Balloon vs LO Dory: Dory's ground weak is quite crippling, causing him to lose to hippowdon, Other doryuuzu, especially balloon variants, Ditto (if DW), and others. Sandslash, however, does not have ground or fighting weaknesses and thus is free to run LO.
Brick Break on Doryuuzu beats my 252 Hp / 252 SpA Modest Balloon Magnet Rise Magnezone. It gets 2 Brick Breaks before I get 2 HP Fires so it wins straight up. Magnet Rise is basically useless against Brick Break Doryuuzu because on the setup turn it'll break your balloon then kill you next turn. It's not possible the get the setup turn needed because they will never rock slide you unless you switch in and lose your balloon and then get killed by earthquake and you can't OHKO with HP Fire.
Brick Break doryuuzu loses to Lati@s, Celebi, and Tangrowth though.
I am disappointed people are still complaining about Dory, even when i didn't put a pokemon specific for countering him, i still managed moving on.
I nominate:
Deoxys-A
Shaymin-S
Darkrai
Manaphy
Deoxys-S
inconsistent
Dory isn't a threat just a really good sweeper, definitely top 3 this gen, but he has counters and several of them.
Latios is frail, i tried using specs latios and well it did nothing like literally nothing, it just kept dying, and spamming draco meteor didn't do anything.
I honestly don't see how sandslash can be better than dory but... okay to each their own
Hopefully the necessary things get banned and i don't have to play with them, cause if i do i am leaving Smogon until they are banned (not that i matter) but i can't play with darkrai, manaphy, shaymin-s and inconsistent especially running around, it would drive me insane (it almost has before)
I nominate:
Deoxys-A
Shaymin-S
Darkrai
Manaphy
Deoxys-S
inconsistent
Dory isn't a threat just a really good sweeper, definitely top 3 this gen, but he has counters and several of them.
Latios is frail, i tried using specs latios and well it did nothing like literally nothing, it just kept dying, and spamming draco meteor didn't do anything.
I honestly don't see how sandslash can be better than dory but... okay to each their own
Hopefully the necessary things get banned and i don't have to play with them, cause if i do i am leaving Smogon until they are banned (not that i matter) but i can't play with darkrai, manaphy, shaymin-s and inconsistent especially running around, it would drive me insane (it almost has before)
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