np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[Katakiri]

Okay, people are getting a little...no. VERY ban happy here. Last round we got through most of the obviously necessary bans. I, myself, think that Drizzle, Drought, Doryuuzu, and Randorosu are the only things that hit that overly obvious ban level that remains. (For reasons that have been beaten to death already)

But when you're actually serious about taking a stance on banning Sand Veil &....SNOW CLOAK...that is going just FAR too far.

It's not like they're new abilities at all. Anyone that's played Gen 4 or even Gen 3 knows that. They've never came anywhere near ban material. I mean look at the Pokemon that have it.....Why am I even trying to explain this?!
If you honestly think those abilities need banned, you're just dumb.
_____________

*sighs* Do you see this, guys? This is exactly the domino effect we were talking about. If we ban even just ONE ability, (in this case it was Inconsistant which unfortunately was totally needed) it would give people "a taste for blood" and it would snowball, making everyone think it's perfectly okay to ban more than just Pokemon.

It's not too far away from "Oh we can use Manaphy, but it can't use Tail Glow or Calm Mind."
_____________

And to the people that want Tyranitar banned......Chill out.
He now has more counters than EVER before. He's never been banned before, so why the HELL would he need banned now?

Sandstorm is a passive weather, it's never been broken, it gives a Sp.Def boost to....basically just Tyranitar & Regirock since most other Rock types' Special Defense is a just waste of programming to begin with, and as far a taking a little bit of damage every turn goes, the Smogcast probably put it best saying 'Oh well, my Infernape can only sweep for 6 turns instead of 10.'

Doryuuzu is broken. Randorosu is broken. Sandstorm/Stream is not broken. Annoying? Yes. Broken? No.

 

[Arc Tech]

Okay, people are getting a little...no. VERY ban happy here. Last round we got through most of the obviously necessary bans. I, myself, think that Drizzle, Drought, Doryuuzu, and Randorosu are the only things that hit that overly obvious ban level that remains. (For reasons that have been beaten to death already)

But when you're actually serious about taking a stance on banning Sand Veil &....SNOW CLOAK...that is going just FAR too far.

It's not like they're new abilities at all. Anyone that's played Gen 4 or even Gen 3 knows that. They've never came anywhere near ban material. I mean look at the Pokemon that have it.....Why am I even trying to explain this?!
If you honestly think those abilities need banned, you're just dumb..

People who want them banned (myself included) because of the extra, unneeded, luck they introduce, and the only thing they do is introduce luck- just like double team and other sources of evasion. The only reason they weren't originally included in the evasion clause when they were released is that doing so would have resulted in the ban of some pokemon. With the DW giving every pokemon who had them as a sole ability a different one, this is no longer so.

 

[masterful]

People who want them banned (myself included) because of the extra, unneeded, luck they introduce, and the only thing they do is introduce luck- just like double team and other sources of evasion. The only reason they weren't originally included in the evasion clause when they were released is that doing so would have resulted in the ban of some pokemon. With the DW giving every pokemon who had them as a sole ability a different one, this is no longer so.

That's like banning Serene Grace, or crits in general. The amount of luck brought into the game is rarely game-breaking, and annoying at best. They rarely, if ever, can ruin a game unless your team is terrible or you just got supremely unlucky

 

[Mario With Lasers]

I guess it would be better to wait for those pokémon to get their DW abilities, then? Only Gliscor got his by now, as far as I know.

 

[Bologo]

People who want them banned (myself included) because of the extra, unneeded, luck they introduce, and the only thing they do is introduce luck- just like double team and other sources of evasion. The only reason they weren't originally included in the evasion clause when they were released is that doing so would have resulted in the ban of some pokemon. With the DW giving every pokemon who had them as a sole ability a different one, this is no longer so.

Just keep in mind that when you ban Sand Veil and Snow Cloak, disregarding the fact that not all users have gotten their DW ability yet, you're implicitly banning a large chunk of the users' movepools too.

If the pokemon is limited to using their Dream World ability, they can't use any of their Gen 4 (or Gen 3) Exclusive moves. This gets even worse when the pokemon gets released as a Dream World Event pokemon, who are apparently all male right now. This means you're also banning all their Egg Moves. An example of this with Snow Cloak is Glaceon, who wouldn't even have his pre-evo level up moves available because he was released already fully evolved and as an event.

Just remember that banning these abilities isn't such a simple task, because it's easy to say that the pokemon has an alternate ability due to Dream World, but you may actually destroy the pokemon's movepool by doing so. This is absolutely unfair to the pokemon. Banning Inconsistent didn't have this issue because it was a DW only ability, but Sand Veil and Snow Cloak are definitely not, so the movepool destruction can come into play because of this.

 

[asdfrozen]

Snow Cloak and Sand Veil? Honestly? Why not ban Focus Blast and Stone Edge too? Or Paralysis and Confusion?

Yes, I understand the reasoning behind this, but by this point you're going to be losing more than you gain.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

It's not just weaknesses.
Resistances matter a lot more.
T-tar has a whopping 6 weaknesses but he resists:
-Ghost
-Dark
-Psychic
-Flying
-Fire
-Normal
-Poison
He has 7 resistances,4 being quite common.

Kyurem has 4 weaknesses and resists:
-Electric
-Water
-Grass

He only has 3 resistances,along with no immunities,and only 2 common resistances.

Next,lets take a look at their defenses:
Kyurem has 125/90/90
Tyranitar has 100/110/100

I'd say they're comparable,but I think Kyurem can take physical hits better.(And T-tar can take special hits better)
Lets run a calc to see how much Scizor's Tech Bullet Punch does to them.(With no investment in bulk,and an Adamant 252 Scizor.)

Kyurem: 394 Atk vs 216 Def & 391 HP (60 Base Power): 236 - 278 (60.36% - 71.10%)

T-tar: 394 Atk vs 256 Def & 341 HP (60 Base Power): 200 - 236 (58.65% - 69.21%)

Wow,T-tar actually takes LESS damage than Kyurem from a 2x move.
T-tar is bulkier than a Legendary >.>
Wow.Just wow.
Still don't like that frozen chicken.

Last I checked, Electric/Water/Grass are fairly common and being able to stomp on most water and grass pokes is awesome. I say those are fairly important to resist as well. And that is a difference of 2% and most Scizors I think carry Choice Band/Life Orb (well, I guess some could carry Leftovers) and neither one usually (unless Kyurem has to or is behind Reflect) is going to stay in and risk Scizor Bullet Punch anyways. Both Tyranitar and Kyurem can 2 hit ko Scizor (or 1 hit ko from Tyranitar Fire Punch or fire move or if Kyurem carries Hp Fire) and most Tyranitars are bulkier than 341 hp anyways I think. Poison resist (except against Venasaur or Roserade who'd be carrying Giga Drain/Power Whip/Leaf Storm also) is not exactly exciting nor is Flying (except in Ubers against Ho-Oh, the only time you'd see Flying in OU is from Staraptor and Braviary who'd have Close Combat/Super Power). Normal is fairly rare so that also is fairly negligible. So Tyranitar has about 4 useful common resists/immunity to OU things and Kyurem has 3.

Tyranitar also can not throw out Stabbed Draco Meteors off of 130 base special attack, just saying. Tyranitar is a phenomenal Pokemon. But Kyurem is severely underrated and far, far bulkier than people give credit for. Having the same special attack as Latios but far better surviveability at a tolerable okay enough speed is pretty good. Like Latios, you can't exactly switch in safely (eating Specs Blizzards and Draco Meteors is tough) but you can't Pursuit this one very well.

And with 417 hp/256 Def behind Reflect, Choice Band Technican Bullet Punch from Scizor does 36.45-43.17% (71.94-84.89% without Reflect). Scizor with Leftovers could not 2 hit ko the above Kyurem without Stealth Rock. Tyranitar is not fond of Scizor without Fire Punch/Flamethrower/Fire Blast either.

 

[ToF]

God damn people read the characteristics of a desirable metagame thread by Doug. Some of the posts in this thread are absolutely ludicrous. Luck is a part of the game. What we want to ban is absolutely gamebreaking luck factors. Sand Veil and Snow Cloak are by no means gamebreaking. Read the thread I mentioned first before posting some of the most ridiculous things I think I've ever heard...

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

God damn people read the characteristics of a desirable metagame thread by Doug. Some of the posts in this thread are absolutely ludicrous. Luck is a part of the game. What we want to ban is absolutely gamebreaking luck factors. Sand Veil and Snow Cloak are by no means gamebreaking. Read the thread I mentioned first before posting some of the most ridiculous things I think I've ever heard...

Many people believe that forcing a user to use an 80% move when they made the personal decision to use a 100% move is gamebreaking. I've said that since last gen and I stand by it.

 

[AlphaSpade]

Maybe if the Sand Veil distribution was significantly wider, I would have issues with it, but as it stands, Garchomp is the only OU pokemon that can make work of Sand Veil (Gliscor loves his poison heal after all). If you have issues with Sand Veil because of Garchomp, then by all means just ban Garchomp >_>.

 

[masterful]

Many people believe that forcing a user to use an 80% move when they made the personal decision to use a 100% move is gamebreaking. I've said that since last gen and I stand by it.

While I agree it is infuriating missing moves like Surf or Ice Shard, it rarely decides a match, and when it does, it is likely helped greatly by a failure of teambuilding (such as packing only one single way to check something like Chomp) or ridiculously bad luck outside of Sand Veil hax (ie. crits, Stone Edge misses, and the like). I Despise Sand Veil and snow Cloak, as well as Serene Grace, yet they do not break the game and thus should not be banned lest we lose out true purpose of creating a balanced, varied meta. If Smogon banned everything annoying or frustrating to play against, we would have a far less diverse meta. A 20% drop in accuracy is rarely decisive, and when it is we must simply roll with the punches, as no one who relies on a haxy ability will be able to do as consistently well as a player who actually plays well.

 

[Katakiri]

People who want them banned (myself included) because of the extra, unneeded, luck they introduce, and the only thing they do is introduce luck- just like double team and other sources of evasion. The only reason they weren't originally included in the evasion clause when they were released is that doing so would have resulted in the ban of some pokemon. With the DW giving every pokemon who had them as a sole ability a different one, this is no longer so.

Sand Veil hardly falls into Evasion Clause. (I'm not even going to bother mentioning Snow Cloak) Evasion Clause was 'mainly' put in place so you can't constantly raise your evasion. With Sand Veil it's set. No way of raising it. And it's set to a very reasonable level. A 100 Acc move against a Sand Veil Pokemon would have about 80 Acc.


But really, banning Sand Veil or Snow Cloak, BANS ANY 3rd OR 4th GEN EXCLUSIVE MOVES THESE POKEMON LEARN.

Mamoswine loses Superpower & Sleep Talk.
Glaceon loses Heal Bell
Froslass loses Sucker Punch, Ice Punch, Trick, Spite, & Pain Split
Garchomp loses Stealth Rock
Cacturne loses...Focus Punch and....who cares

By banning those abilities, you pretty much ban entire sets, which is literally like saying:

"Oh we can use Manaphy, but it can't use Tail Glow or Calm Mind."

The thing about banning Inconsistent is that those Pokemon didn't lose anything except Inconsistent itself.

I'm just gonna stop arguing this. If I know Smogon like I know I know Smogon, Sand Veil & Snow Cloak are never going to be banned so there's no point in dragging this on.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Mamoswine loses Superpower & Sleep Talk.
Glaceon loses Heal Bell
Froslass loses Sucker Punch, Ice Punch, Trick, Spite, & Pain Split
Garchomp loses Stealth Rock
Gliscor loses Roost, Stealth Rock, & Tailwind
Cacturne loses...Focus Punch and....who cares

Considering DW event-only pokémon are all male and both Mamoswine and Glaceon were distributed as already fully-evolved pokémon, they actually lose all of their 3rd/4th Gen, Egg and pre-evo moves. Can you imagine being forced to use Mamoswine without Ice Shard? lol

 

[Deaga]

huh, Mamoswine gets Oblivious as an ability too, guys...

I still disagree with banning Sand Veil/Snow Cloak though, if only because they're such terrible abilities. Come on, nobody would even mind them if Garchomp never had Sand Veil in the first place. Obviously 'Chomp is the problem here, not the abilities. Or do you really mind Cacturne and Glaceon that much?

 

[SlimMan]

^^^
exactly

People who want them banned (myself included) because of the extra, unneeded, luck they introduce, and the only thing they do is introduce luck- just like double team and other sources of evasion.

Who cares if they introduce luck? So do Serene Grace, Flame Body, Static, and half-a-dozen other things.
If it isn't broken, don't ban it. What is wrong with that philosophy?

By that same logic, I could say that we should ban Stone Edge, simply because it only has an 80% chance to hit. And don't say "Yes, but 100% mioves shouldn't miss." They AREN'T 100% moves. They ARE 80% moves. That's simply how it works. Another similarity to banning Stone Edge is the nu,ber of movesets that would be ruined by it, though that's a much less important reason.

 

[voodoo pimp]

And don't say "Yes, but 100% mioves shouldn't miss." They AREN'T 100% moves. They ARE 80% moves. That's simply how it works.

In fact, that's the reason for the existence of -- accuracy moves. 100% moves aren't always 100%.

 

[Machi]

Is it just me or is the nominations coming up starting to be rather specialized? I mean barring the removal of the Veil/Cloak I'm also starting to see banning of Shadow tag - rather than Wobbuffet (who will essentially be USELESS with Telepathy given the moves it learns and stats that it carries). True you'd essentially have to deal with shadow tag Chandelure or Goth in the future but banning shadow tag really is as good as banning Wobbuffet that at this point given that the only basis right now is Wifi and not DW it seems better to just ban Wobbuffet right now than just claiming Shadow Tag (which is restricted to only one Poke at Wifi for the moment, I mean seriously who uses Telepathy Wobb).

Heck he'd just be back to what he was in GSC, which again wasn't to his favor since that gen was mostly stalling. With the Taunt he'd essentially be blocked out from half his movepool - which is easy enough to pull off given his speed. Only other worst thing I noticed was the nomination of Arena Trap and Magnet Pull!!! Which is the real slippery slope IMO of banning Shadow Tag rather than Wobbuffet because suddenly it gives the license to remove the more specialized versions which are carried by a few Pokes for essentially the same purpose (though I am more doubtful these would be banned). The other bad thing I've seen worth noting the banning of Magic Guard from Rank - which for this purpose is a very slippery slope with the other 3 Magic Guard users (though IMO Rankurusu is certainly no more broken than Scizor just that he is a very anti-metagame Pokemon either as a CM version against all stalls or Trick Room which generally screws up standard teams but fares poorly against stall since they tend to waste turns). Just that Rank is more popular thanks to having better bulk, a lot more fire power, and move pool than the other 3 users (though it doesn't make Shinbora or Clefable any less dangerous to stalls, its why I use them and enjoy screwing them over especially Sturdy abusers). Point is though that its these abilities are how certain sets and playstyles of teams are modeled around so banning them is essentially pushing something onto limbo just to "keep" it on the playing field (course veil/cloak don't have that same logic so its best to ignore that but Shadow Tag and Magic guard do - also Wobbuffet would be the most extreme example of a Pokemon that exemplifies this logic of ability makes the set and playstyle but hey a good example nonetheless as it would be no different than Clefables centered upon Magic Guard which was a HUGE blessing to it in Gen 4 and did screw over ALOT of stalls though stall wasn't as popular then unlike now).

The main thread of all these ability ban nominations suddenly - lets not even place inconsistent as a standard since that was an exception that really needed to leave - can be more specialized that thanks to the introduction of alternative abilities via DW to popular Poke's is that it became OK. When essentially these abilities can be a lynchpin to other pokes sets and play styles or manners of checks or counters to other popular styles.

Edit: I'd even go so far as argue that having MORE magic guard users is a blessing given the popularity of Sand and hazards - and with much heavier hitters who'd really take advantage of of that one turn of rapid spin (or just block with Gengar) magic guard is a such a blessing in that you can just continue to take the pace of the game and even take advantage of the opponents wasted turn to prepare your own offense.

 

[idiotfrommars]

We can't really say that the slippery slope has started yet, since it is really up to the voters to decide, and I personally will not vote in a way that encourages a slope. Inconsistent was an exception and thats it. I see no reason to have more complicated bans that are completely unnecesary.

 

[foo1314]

Latios

So as far as my testing has gone, I have noticed one Pokemon that has been flying entirely under the radar for how unreasonable it can almost always be. That's Latios. Why is it getting no attention in suspect testing or anything else? He has been banned before, you would think an eye would be kept out for him. Anyway, I have been asking around as to why he has not been banned yet, and the only reasons that I have gotten are "Pursuit weakness" and "Nattorei". For the pursuit weakness, what pokemon are you using that can take advantage of his pursuit weakness? The common answer is Ttar or Scizor. To which the question is, is it faster than Latios? Scizor is certainly not, and Ttar is usually not, so why would Latios even consider switching out with its type advantages. HP Fire is commonly run on him now, which means Scizor is OHKO, and Psychic makes Ttar OHKO. Pursuit weakness means little to nothing in this metagame. Nattorei has a three word answer: Hidden Power Fire. If you arent running hidden power fire on Latios right now, you should reconsider since it answers his only "checks" with a OHKO. How has Latios gotten no attention for suspect testing at the least? What is it that I'm missing here?

 

[KurashiDragon]

Magic Guard is now currently up on the chopping block...... Really..... no really. People are getting ban happy. Drizzle, Latios, mabye sand and mabye doryuuzu and MABYE Reuniclus I can understand but there are things there that are just wow. Magic Guard is an awesome ability but can we truly say its broken?

 

[SJCrew]

So as far as my testing has gone, I have noticed one Pokemon that has been flying entirely under the radar for how unreasonable it can almost always be. That's Latios. Why is it getting no attention in suspect testing or anything else? He has been banned before, you would think an eye would be kept out for him. Anyway, I have been asking around as to why he has not been banned yet, and the only reasons that I have gotten are "Pursuit weakness" and "Nattorei". For the pursuit weakness, what pokemon are you using that can take advantage of his pursuit weakness? The common answer is Ttar or Scizor. To which the question is, is it faster than Latios? Scizor is certainly not, and Ttar is usually not, so why would Latios even consider switching out with its type advantages. HP Fire is commonly run on him now, which means Scizor is OHKO, and Psychic makes Ttar OHKO. Pursuit weakness means little to nothing in this metagame. Nattorei has a three word answer: Hidden Power Fire. If you arent running hidden power fire on Latios right now, you should reconsider since it answers his only "checks" with a OHKO. How has Latios gotten no attention for suspect testing at the least? What is it that I'm missing here?

By my count, Latios currently has 21 nominations. Fairly certain everyone is noticing their teams being Draco Meteored to death.

 

[ungulateman]

@ banning Snow Cloak / Sand Veil

Why don't we just substitute a "No Ability" option onto Pokemon with those abilities (in addition to their DW ability)? Not possible in Wi-Fi battles, but Wi-Fi battles are stupid anyway.

 

[bubbly]

No, this is ridiculous. The abilities don't introduce an undue amount of hax, and the only pokemon on which their effects are significant is Garchomp. In this case you simply have to take the pokemon and the ability together. E.g., in this case, if it is decided that Garchomp is broken in the sand, then you have to ban it as a pokemon.

My approach to this entire thing is that if the pokemon is bannable as a result of its ability then you have to ban the pokemon. Inconsistent ISN'T an exception to this; every single user of it would have been banned individually.

IMO Rankurusu isn't ban material. The problem as I see it is that stall teams don't prepare for it at all. It does force defensive teams to utilise at least one heavy hitting pokemon, but that shouldn't be an issue.
One of the ways I've been using to get around it is just U-turn stalling, where you basically lay hazards and then spam U-turn all over the place. It forces switches, you still get the hazard damage, and Rankurusu isn't an issue.
Basically, people only want Rankurusu banned because it forces them to adapt to it.

 

[Deco]

Yeah, a lot of people are WAY too ban-happy. I have seen no evidence that Reuniclus, Wobbuffet or even Latios are overpowered and/or overcentralizing, so let's just focus on the obviously broken shit first - Drizzle, and either Sand Stream or Excadrill/Landorus. After that, we can take a closer look at the other suspects - personally, right now I feel we'll have a nicely balanced metagame after nerfing weather and no other bans will be needed, but my opinion may change later on... we'll see.

(edit: whoo, post #2000 in this thread)

 

[astrohawke]

No, this is ridiculous. The abilities don't introduce an undue amount of hax, and the only pokemon on which their effects are significant is Garchomp. In this case you simply have to take the pokemon and the ability together. E.g., in this case, if it is decided that Garchomp is broken in the sand, then you have to ban it as a pokemon.

My approach to this entire thing is that if the pokemon is bannable as a result of its ability then you have to ban the pokemon. Inconsistent ISN'T an exception to this; every single user of it would have been banned individually.

IMO Rankurusu isn't ban material. The problem as I see it is that stall teams don't prepare for it at all. It does force defensive teams to utilise at least one heavy hitting pokemon, but that shouldn't be an issue.
One of the ways I've been using to get around it is just U-turn stalling, where you basically lay hazards and then spam U-turn all over the place. It forces switches, you still get the hazard damage, and Rankurusu isn't an issue.
Basically, people only want Rankurusu banned because it forces them to adapt to it.

Agreed with this. Seriously what the fuck is up with all the people saying rankurusu single handedly destroys stall teams? Yea no shit if your stall team is completely bad and relies on setting up sr/spikes/toxic spikes and 6 walls that have 1 attacking move each and no real damage output. With a team like that, clefable would single handedly beat you too.