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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

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Benlisted said:
Actually if running considerable special bulk Vappy and Jellicent can come in on DM due to their healing moves and the power drop, so they are pretty safe switches to the Specs set. The issue is that they will have immense trouble with the ChestoRest DDer in particular due to even their status being shrugged off.
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doesn't change the fact that Nattorei is a safer switch in into specs Kingdra. Also, the standard Vaporeon is always 2hko'd after SR if it comes into DM. taking an average 70% from a full power draco meteor. Yeah you can run specially defensive sets but:
1) you still take over 50% from DM with SR factored in and you're forced to use wish giving your opponent a free switch;
2) you lose the physical bulk required to wall Gyarados and other physical threats;
3) as you stated, if you mispredict and Kingrda is the DD or the mix variant you'll lose to outrage.
 
No one ever said Ferro wasn't a good switch in...it's just that only one Natt set can reliably counter Specs Kingdra with at least 1 of 3 moves that might not always be what you want on your Ferrothorn.
So it's not a 100% counter.
I believe most Ferrothorns are physically defensive,right?

Whatever.
Can we discuss something other than rain?
How do you think PO's glitch affects Landorus? A 1.3 boost is a bit more manageable than a 1.5 boost.
 
45% - 53.1% is the amount LO Jolly Landorus does to 252/252 impish hippo.

He's 3HKO'd before Landorus even uses Sword's Dance. What are you gonna do? Roar? Slack off as he uses Sword's Dance? Ice Fang?
 
alphatron said:
45% - 53.1% is the amount LO Jolly Landorus does to 252/252 impish hippo.

He's 3HKO'd before Landorus even uses Sword's Dance. What are you gonna do? Roar? Slack off as he uses Sword's Dance? Ice Fang?
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How about against Impish Poison Heal Gliscor with Ice Fang? :P
I've killed a few with that.
 
I haven't really been keeping up with the testing process that much, but all I can say is I hope that everything isn't banned before the English version even comes out.
 
Kefka the god of magic said:
How about against Impish Poison Heal Gliscor with Ice Fang? :P
I've killed a few with that.
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Randorosu@Life Orb (0 EVs, -Nature) Hidden Power Ice vs Gliscor@Leftovers (252/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 96 ~ 112.9% (340 ~ 400 HP)

I don't think that's going to work. Not on a dedicated sand team anyway, since they need something to deal with Gliscor, and Landorus does the job very well.
 
Arc Tech said:
Randorosu@Life Orb (0 EVs, -Nature) Hidden Power Ice vs Gliscor@Leftovers (252/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 96 ~ 112.9% (340 ~ 400 HP)

I don't think that's going to work. Not on a dedicated sand team anyway, since they need something to deal with Gliscor, and Landorus does the job very well.
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The ones I fought apparently didn't have HP Ice for some reason >.>
Oh well,I hope Landorus enjoys Ubers.
 
IIRC Landlos can 2hko standard Bronzong with SD LO Stone Edge in Sand (yeah with the 1.3 boost lol :/). I dont know about you but that is extremely messed up.

It still shreds though offense with RP and anything with bulk loses to SD (yeah people DO run SD + RP on the same set which is probably its best set). It doesn't change anything really that there is a glitch at all with its ability, nothing is still wanting to take hits from it apart from like 3 stupid unviable things.
 
Sir Azelf said:
IIRC Landlos can 2hko standard Bronzong with SD LO Stone Edge in Sand (yeah with the 1.3 boost lol :/). I dont know about you but that is extremely messed up.

It still shreds though offense with RP and anything with bulk loses to SD (yeah people DO run SD + RP on the same set which is probably its best set). It doesn't change anything really that there is a glitch at all with its ability, nothing is still wanting to take hits from it apart from like 3 stupid unviable things.
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The problem is then it doesn't have HP Ice for gliscor. It seems like it has moveslot syndrome.
 
Kefka the god of magic said:
No one ever said Ferro wasn't a good switch in...it's just that only one Natt set can reliably counter Specs Kingdra with at least 1 of 3 moves that might not always be what you want on your Ferrothorn.
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I believe someone did, how about you read some previous posts before posting yourself?

And what are you talking about? Nattorei just needs power whip to reliably counter Kingdra, and as far as I know it's considered a standard move on it.

So it's not a 100% counter.
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yes it is. Check the last 2-3 pages if you haven't.

I believe most Ferrothorns are physically defensive,right?
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No, you have no evidence of that and according to C&C the "standard" set runs a sassy nature.
 
SD LO Stone Edge does 67.2% - 79.7% to 252/200 Impish Gliscor so i wouldn't call it a problem in the slightest to a even non HP Ice Landlos sweep.
 
Haunter said:
And what are you talking about? Nattorei just needs power whip to reliably counter Kingdra, and as far as I know it's considered a standard move on it.
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I think he was referring to the fact that the only way it beats every Kingdra (Namely Specs using Hydro Pump) and lives is by running Protect+Leech Seed to stall it out whilst recovering enough to survive. Ferrothorn without this and solely Power Whip are 3HKOd upon switching in, so Power Whip alone isn't enough to counter it, as you cannot safely switch into Specs.

It's pretty much a moot point though, as you are otherwise entirely correct that Ferrothorn can 100% counter all Kingdra with a standard set, even if it restricts its hazard laying abilities somewhat.
 
Benlisted said:
Ferrothorn without this and solely Power Whip are 3HKOd upon switching in, so Power Whip alone isn't enough to counter it, as you cannot safely switch into Specs.
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It's not a 100% hard counter unless you run Sassy 252 Hp/252 Sp.def Ferrothorn.
By definition of a counter,it has to always be able to safely switch in and force a switch or kill the opposing pokemon.
The most common set AFAIK is a physically defensive one.

Btw,here's a calc:

475 Atk vs 298 Def & 352 HP (80 Base Power): 133 - 157 (37.78% - 44.60%)

+1 Adamant Kingdra's LO Waterfall in the rain against a Sassy 252 HP/252 Sp.def Ferrothorn

I'll say it again,only Sassy 252 HP/252 Sp.Def Ferro can counter Kingdra 100% of the time.

Not all Ferro sets can counter.
 
Kefka the god of magic said:
It's not a 100% hard counter unless you run Sassy 252 Hp/252 Sp.def Ferrothorn.
By definition of a counter,it has to always be able to safely switch in and force a switch or kill the opposing pokemon.
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If that's the definition of "counter", then Lucario has no counters and the same can be said for pretty much every sweeper in the game. If your check\counter is weakened you can't expect it to win against the Pokemon it's supposed to force out, like it does when at full health. Hippowdon counters Lucario if it's at around 80% of its health when it comes in, the same can be said for Gliscor. I can't see why the same argument doesn't apply to Nattorei and Kingdra.
 
Kefka the god of magic said:
It's not a 100% hard counter unless you run Sassy 252 Hp/252 Sp.def Ferrothorn.
By definition of a counter,it has to always be able to safely switch in and force a switch or kill the opposing pokemon.
The most common set AFAIK is a physically defensive one.

Btw,here's a calc:

475 Atk vs 298 Def & 352 HP (80 Base Power): 133 - 157 (37.78% - 44.60%)

+1 Adamant Kingdra's LO Waterfall in the rain against a Sassy 252 HP/252 Sp.def Ferrothorn

I'll say it again,only Sassy 252 HP/252 Sp.Def Ferro can counter Kingdra 100% of the time.

Not all Ferro sets can counter.
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The only thing to base the most common set on is C&C, and like Haunter says, the first set runs Sassy.

I'm not sure what the point of your calc is - it shows that by switching into a DD Ferro can still manage to 2HKO Kingdra as it fails to 2HKO it with +2 Waterfall?

The same Sassy set beats all Specs Kingdra if it runs Leech Seed and Protect as I said earlier.

You seem to be presuming a counter must always be able to beat said pokemon with any of its sets, which is clearly not so. If Ferrothorn can beat any given Kingdra set with one set (which it just about can) then it is clearly a (potential) 100% counter to Kingdra. The fact that some sets do not run the necessary moves to beat it is irrelevant.
 
Benlisted said:
The only thing to base the most common set on is C&C, and like Haunter says, the first set runs Sassy.

I'm not sure what the point of your calc is - it shows that by switching into a DD Ferro can still manage to 2HKO Kingdra as it fails to 2HKO it with +2 Waterfall?

The same Sassy set beats all Specs Kingdra if it runs Leech Seed and Protect as I said earlier.

You seem to be presuming a counter must always be able to beat said pokemon with any of its sets, which is clearly not so. If Ferrothorn can beat any given Kingdra set with one set (which it just about can) then it is clearly a (potential) 100% counter to Kingdra. The fact that some sets do not run the necessary moves to beat it is irrelevant.
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This makes ferrothorn a counter, but makes it run a specific set. With only one free move, you have to choose between SR, Spikes, or gyro ball.

Plus with no recovery he can only come in on specsdra once. I believe even with lefties and seeds, if kingdra switches out he's still down some hp.
 
How can we expect any pokemon to completely counter such a diverse pokemon as Kingdra?

Few top tier pokemon have 100% counters. That's one of the reasons they're OU.
 
So what is the general consensus regarding the current suspects? Which do you think will get banned if any? Personally I just want this round to be over so I can see if Excadrill gets banned so I can begin constructing a team.

But if I had to say I think Manaphy has the best chance of getting banned. It only needs a simple majority while the rest need super majority.

But does anyone think Latios, Reuniclus or Excadrill will get supermajorities? Can't hurt to make any predictions can it?
 
Disposable Puppets said:
So what is the general consensus regarding the current suspects? Which do you think will get banned if any? Personally I just want this round to be over so I can see if Excadrill gets banned so I can begin constructing a team.

But if I had to say I think Manaphy has the best chance of getting banned. It only needs a simple majority while the rest need super majority.

But does anyone think Latios, Reuniclus or Excadrill will get supermajorities? Can't hurt to make any predictions can't it?
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My guess is that Manaphy gets banned, Latios gets banned, and Reuniclus and Excadrill may hit a simple majority.
 
I don't think Manaphy will be banned unfortunately. I think the pokemon who has the highest chance to get kicked is latios.
 
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