np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

[Engineer Pikachu]

I've been running Regeneration Slowbro this whole generation and he is woefully unappreciated. He is a 100% full stop to every single Blaziken there is. 100%. Such that when I see a Blaziken on the Team Preview, I think, "Well there's one less Poke I have to worry about."

Shadow Claw says hi, even if it's not doing too much damage.
Adamant +2 LO Blaziken Shadow Claw v max/max+ Slowbro: 140 - 166 (35.53% - 42.13%)
min Slowbro Boil Over v 4/0 Blaziken (Sun): 58 - 70 (19.21% - 23.18%)

True, Blaziken's not doing much to Slowbro, but it's not doing much to Blaziken either.

 

[SlimMan]

While not a OHKO with SR, remember this is gen V, not gen IV. We have deoxys and nattorei running amok now (and I've been seing quite a few skarmorys and some forretresses as well). A SR+ a layer of spikes or 3 layers of spikes make the OHKO nearly guaranteed after an SD, and Sr + 2 or 3 layers of spikes guarantee it.

In that case, Hippowdon does not counter SD Lucario, because 3 layers of Spikes leaves it open to a +2 Close Combat. >_>
1 layer of Spikes is generally the assumed amount unless otherwise stated.

My point is that, although Tenta is not a counter, it is about as close as you can get.

 

[Arc Tech]

I've been running Regeneration Slowbro this whole generation and he is woefully unappreciated. He is a 100% full stop to every single Blaziken there is. 100%. Such that when I see a Blaziken on the Team Preview, I think, "Well there's one less Poke I have to worry about." Plus he solidly checks Dory without X-Scissor if he's at full health (as he usually will be with Regeneration). He can stop Terakion and Landorus extremely well too. He's a fantastic Roobushin counter as well. Basically what I'm trying to say is Slowbro is the bomb. People should use him ^.^

+2 LO Adamant Blaziken Shadow Claw vs 252/252 Bold Slowbro: 70%-82.7%
Needs a layer of SR + spikes to OHKO, guaranteed with SR + 2 layers of spikes

With Sr and a layer of spikes, not too hard this gen, blaziken appears to be capable of OHKOing all of its supposed counters- and too add insult to injury, many of its "counters" are bulky waters, aka set up bait for nattorei. Although I will admit it is restrained by moveslot syndrome; it can't run SD/Protect/HJK/Flare blitz or blaze kick/Shadow Claw/Stone edge. But that and some difficulty setting up is the main thing it is restrained by.

In that case, Hippowdon does not counter SD Lucario, because 3 layers of Spikes leaves it open to a +2 Close Combat. >_>
1 layer of Spikes is generally the assumed amount unless otherwise stated.

My point is that, although Tenta is not a counter, it is about as close as you can get.

I didn't say it required 3 layers of spikes; I said that 3 layers of spikes, or (the more common expectation) SR + a layer of spikes, makes it a ohko. SR + a layer or two of spikes is common this gen (although not as common, as in nearly universal, as just SR last gen).

 

[IcyMan28]

I've been running Regeneration Slowbro this whole generation and he is woefully unappreciated. He is a 100% full stop to every single Blaziken there is. 100%. Such that when I see a Blaziken on the Team Preview, I think, "Well there's one less Poke I have to worry about." Plus he solidly checks Dory without X-Scissor if he's at full health (as he usually will be with Regeneration). He can stop Terakion and Landorus extremely well too. He's a fantastic Roobushin counter as well. Basically what I'm trying to say is Slowbro is the bomb. People should use him ^.^

Slowbro is probably the most solid general check to Blaziken, yes, but leave it in on MixKen and you'll regret it:

349 SpA LO HP Electric vs. 252/0 Neutral Bro: (58.88% - 69.54%)
349 SpA LO Fire Blast vs. 252/0 Neutral Bro: (37.82% - 44.67%)

That's 95% minimum between the two moves, and factoring leftovers Slowbro will take a minimum 89% from Blaziken spamming a STAB + Coverage Move alone. SR / Spikes ensures the kill. Unlike Shadow Claw SDKen, this one doesn't even need Sun to get past it.

This isn't to say that Blaze is broken - like Salamence, NPThundurus, and Lucario, smart play is required to get around it rather than a hard counter (I don't think there are any for Blaze other than Cresselia), but I find that more fun sometimes than just going to my typical check.

 

[SlimMan]

@ Arc Tech:
With 3 layers of Spikes and SR as many as 10 or 15 sweepers (idk the actual #) have no counters.
As I said before, I'm almost certain that 1 layer of Spikes or SR is the assumed amount.

 

[kalamadude]

Shadow Claw says hi, even if it's not doing too much damage.
Adamant +2 LO Blaziken Shadow Claw v max/max+ Slowbro: 140 - 166 (35.53% - 42.13%)
min Slowbro Boil Over v 4/0 Blaziken (Sun): 58 - 70 (19.21% - 23.18%)

True, Blaziken's not doing much to Slowbro, but it's not doing much to Blaziken either.

Surf or Psychic are much better than Boil Over for Blaziken. And 35-42 is nothing to Slowbro when he regenerates 33 just by switching. With Leftovers, he GAINS health in this exchange.

 

[Athenodoros]

Except that to get Regeneration going you need to let +2 Blaziken have a free shot at another one of your team members, which is probably a kill unless you have more than one Pokemon which can sponge hits from Blaziken.

 

[SlimMan]

Why would Slowbro use Boil Over on a Blaziken instead of Psychic in the sun?

And yes, Slowbro still carries Psychic. It makes him the ultimate Roob counter.

 

[Jibaku]

min Slowbro Boil Over v 4/0 Blaziken (Sun): 58 - 70 (19.21% - 23.18%)

it does 38.4%-46.4% (in the sun)

Shadow Claw says hi, even if it's not doing too much damage.
Adamant +2 LO Blaziken Shadow Claw v max/max+ Slowbro: 140 - 166 (35.53% - 42.13%)

It does 70%-84%

 

[TLK]

This isn't to say that Blaze is broken - like Salamence, NPThundurus, and Lucario, smart play is required to get around it rather than a hard counter (I don't think there are any for Blaze other than Cresselia), but I find that more fun sometimes than just going to my typical check.

I know in the sun a +2 Flare Blitz will one shot a Cress, but what about without sun? I'm sure it comes close.

And Cress without Psychic isn't going to kill Blaziken. And I always thought that most Cresselia went for BoltBeam for dragons instead of Psychic, but I've not seen any Cresselia this gen to see.

 

[Innocent Criminal]

I think Blaziken is somewhat like an amplified Salamence : once it has set up, there is only one, uncommon counter to it (slowbro), but recoil racks up so quickly that it can be worked around, especially with smart switches. Excadrill is good at revenging Protectless variants (Blaziken needs at least +3 to outspeed even Adamant Drills), and Blaziken usually can't just switch out and SD later anyway. Out of the sun, forcing it to Flare Blitz also pretty much end its sweep, as KOing Reuniclus will cost it more than half of its health.

I don't think it's suspect-worthy yet, but it might be if people catch on how to use it, for the same reason as Mence : not really sweeping, but blowing huge holes in the opposing team. By the way, Deoxys-S might be its best partner : Dual Screens are a godsend for obvious reasons, and it also bait the omnipresent TTar, which also happens to be one of the safest common setup fodders (seriously, who runs unchoiced Earthquake these days ?)


@TLK : Sun SDKen runs Blaze Kick to avoid recoil, as it can already OHKO everything else that doesn't resist it. Being able to actually use your Fire Move without commiting suicide is the main point of using it in the sun, along with trolling enemy TTars/Toeds (if they don't switch in, you outspeed and OHKOes everything without recoil so you win, if switch in and stay, they die so you win, if they switch in and out, something else dies and you get enough boost to outspeed Excadrill so you win. well, it's not as easy, still...)

 

[JSND]

TBH i must say blaze is slightly controversial. At times he seems broken while at times he seems mediocre. Unlike say doryuuzu which every people treat like gligar in LC(HP ice on everything although not as insanely checked as that) Blaziken dont give any inconvenience whatsoever. Still hes more like late game cleaner TBH

 

[shrang]

I really hate Blaziken. Basically, you're going to have to act pretty much immediately if he is to be stopped, and even then, if it has the correct coverage move, you're screwed anyway. Gyarados and Mence handily stops non-Stone Edge (or Thunderpunch) versions while Burungeru and Latias can handle non-Shadow Claw versions pretty well (although they are both quite shaky too). If you have none of them, you're going to have to bring in your revenge-killer pretty quickly, otherwise, it'll just get faster until you can't stop it any more. If Blaziken decides to attack first (which is fair, as he scout your switch-in), your revenge-killer is either dead or in a state where anything can kill it (basically, picture your Azumarill taking like 70-80% from HJK). So far, I can deal with it (Hitmontop + Mence is the greatest combo ever), but I really hate Blaziken, it's like a fuse for a bomb. You cannot relax in a game if you see Blaziken on their team, ever.

EDIT: Oh I guess Slowbro does a really good job at taking on Blaziken, although if I were running Blaziken, I'd make sure your Slowbro was <70% health before I begin my sweep.

 

[JSND]

^ so very true. So we need to handle it ASAP to defeat it ? How do we really counter it anyway ?

 

[TLK]

The only true counter is to not let it set up and to play around it. The problem with that is that the Blaziken user can also predict and guess your attempts to LO Stall him.

Even if Blaziken kills itself due to recoil, taking down 2/3 Pokemon is well worth it.

Like I said, I don't know if it is broken, but I think it at least warrants a test.

 

[November Blue]

Surf or Psychic are much better than Boil Over for Blaziken.

No. You should ALWAYS run scald/boiling water on slowbro. I'm an avid user of the 'bro, and when I use him, half the opponents team gets burnt. Gyarados thinks it can set up on me? Ha!

I think that blaze kick is a better choice on SDken. IIRC you don't miss out on any KOs, and the lack of recoil damage can sometimes prolong your sweep. I like to run leftovers instead of life orb for this reason as well.

Suspect worthy? I dunno.... I'll have to test him before I form an opinion. I'm leaning towards no though.

Flash fire scarf chandelure is a great check to most blaziken. It's immune to it's STABs and can take advantage of HJK's recoil. Blaziken relies on boosting to succeed, so forcing a switch can stop him dead in most situations and make him vulnerable to your own sweep later in the battle.

Which sets do y'all run? My favourite is 252/252 adamant leftovers with HJK/blaze kick/night slash/SD. Protect is fairly useless unless you run it with sub/baton pass and an attack, which is currently illegal. If you want to sweep, you're much better off dancing on the first turn instead of abusing protect and losing power/coverage.

 

[Athenodoros]

You definitely miss out on KOes with Blaze Kick. Gliscor, for one thing, needs Flare Blitz. It alos really enjoys Life Orb because it can kill counters like Latios with +2 Stone Edge and Gliscor with +2 Flare Blitz. If anything, I'd use Balloon instead of Leftovers, because Blaziken will rarely survive an attack launched at him anyway, so it is better to be able to attack Pokemon like Doryuuzu than to have 6.25% per turn.

 

[Innocent Criminal]

Blaziken absolutely needs LO, and Flare Blitz outside of the sun. Yes, recoil hurts, but Blaziken is much too frail to miss on any KO. Balloon won't work with SD, as any moderately good player will attack you right away and pop it. Its best SD set is probably :

Blaziken @ Life Orb
Adamant, obvious EVs
- Swords Dance
- Hi Jump Kick
- Flare Blitz (Blaze Kick in the sun)
- Stone Edge / Protect

About Protect, yes, it does lose coverage, but don't forget we're talking about 120 base Attack, Adamant, with SD and 130 + 120 BP STABs. +2 HJK is already strong enough to OHKO any Latios and does 85.7% - 101.1% to 252HP Latias, so it almost always OHKO with rocks. You lose to Salamence, Gyarados, Burungeru and Chandelure, but you can no longer be revenged by Excadrill, which is much more common and dangerous than any of them. Furthermore, as we all know how difficult it can be to get that one SD, Blaziken can still be a very potent late-game cleaner, as 130BP Fighting STAB from 372 Atk + LO hurts A LOT.

It's a choice between being

Also, Shadow Claw really only brings more accuracy but leaves you vulnerable to Gyarados and Salamence. Stone Edge does 78.5% - 92.3% to even 252HP/172Def Burungeru, which is a OHKO in most standard battle conditions. Because of its higher BP, you can also use it to OHKO half the metagame instead of HJK when suspecting a Protect/Ghost switch in.


I've been experimenting with it, and it's really the only reason I got this far (easily 1450 on PO's server) with a playstyle as notoriously bad as Heavy Offense... Seriously, Deo-S set up screens while TTar comes trying to Crunch it, I get a free set-up fodder (nobody runs unchoiced EQ anymore, and even unchoiced Stone Edge is rare) and enough protection to survive priority and Destroy half of the enemy, while Deo is still alive to make one last screen.

 

[masterful]

Blaziken absolutely needs LO, and Flare Blitz outside of the sun. Yes, recoil hurts, but Blaziken is much too frail to miss on any KO. Balloon won't work with SD, as any moderately good player will attack you right away and pop it. Its best SD set is probably :

Blaziken @ Life Orb
Adamant, obvious EVs
- Swords Dance
- Hi Jump Kick
- Flare Blitz (Blaze Kick in the sun)
- Stone Edge / Protect

About Protect, yes, it does lose coverage, but don't forget we're talking about 120 base Attack, Adamant, with SD and 130 + 120 BP STABs. +2 HJK is already strong enough to OHKO any Latios and does 85.7% - 101.1% to 252HP Latias, so it almost always OHKO with rocks. You lose to Salamence, Gyarados, Burungeru and Chandelure, but you can no longer be revenged by Excadrill, which is much more common and dangerous than any of them. Furthermore, as we all know how difficult it can be to get that one SD, Blaziken can still be a very potent late-game cleaner, as 130BP Fighting STAB from 372 Atk + LO hurts A LOT.

It's a choice between being

Also, Shadow Claw really only brings more accuracy but leaves you vulnerable to Gyarados and Salamence. Stone Edge does 78.5% - 92.3% to even 252HP/172Def Burungeru, which is a OHKO in most standard battle conditions. Because of its higher BP, you can also use it to OHKO half the metagame instead of HJK when suspecting a Protect/Ghost switch in.


I've been experimenting with it, and it's really the only reason I got this far (easily 1450 on PO's server) with a playstyle as notoriously bad as Heavy Offense... Seriously, Deo-S set up screens while TTar comes trying to Crunch it, I get a free set-up fodder (nobody runs unchoiced EQ anymore, and even unchoiced Stone Edge is rare) and enough protection to survive priority and Destroy half of the enemy, while Deo is still alive to make one last screen.

If you plan to go LO+Flare Blitz, it's a lot harder to set up on something with your resistances. It pretty much means that you can't sweep unless you start at 100%, because as soon as Nat switches in and you have to Flare Blitz or HJK, odds are, you will be taking a lot of damage(especially if the Nat has protect, which many do)

 

[Fluffy Otters]

If you plan to go LO+Flare Blitz, it's a lot harder to set up on something with your resistances. It pretty much means that you can't sweep unless you start at 100%, because as soon as Nat switches in and you have to Flare Blitz or HJK, odds are, you will be taking a lot of damage(especially if the Nat has protect, which many do)

If you Flare Blitz and Nattorei Protects, I don't think you take Recoil damage and obviously you'd use your Fire move and not Hi Jump Kick Nattorei for said reason and you still can take out 2-3 Pokemon.

 

[Benlisted]

About Cresslia as TLK mentioned - LO +2 Flare Blitz does 75-88% on max Def Cress, which assuming Lefties recovery if the Cress comes in on the SD, will not OHKO, ever. Psychic obviously lets it KO in return due to the massive FB recoil from attacking a 444 HP pokemon, so it is somewhat of a hard counter if at high health.

From my experience of Cress this gen, both Psychic and Ice Beam have their values on a mono-attacking set (I'd use both if using one with 2 attacks), but I tend to go for Psychic given the enhanced threat of Blaziken and other Fighting mons, and its higher power due to STAB.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

If Blaziken doesn't have a LO, Max HP/128 Def Bold Wobbuffet can survive a +2 Flare Blitz and obviously OHKO back with Counter.
Wobb takes 81.34% - 95.72% from that Flare Blitz though...

Blaziken hits stupidly hard :/

 

[masterful]

If you Flare Blitz and Nattorei Protects, I don't think you take Recoil damage and obviously you'd use your Fire move and not Hi Jump Kick Nattorei for said reason and you still can take out 2-3 Pokemon.

Have fun Flare Blitzing Nat with iron thorns, life orb, and recoil. And you would use HJK if you don't want to insta-die by iron thorns and recoil (unless he predicts, in which case you're screwed either way)

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Have fun Flare Blitzing Nat with iron thorns, life orb, and recoil. And you would use HJK if you don't want to insta-die by iron thorns and recoil (unless he predicts, in which case you're screwed either way)

Although it is a major ouchie he'll surive at full health and even CB Scizor Bullet Punch might (although it has a chance) not finish him off from there so Blaziken still takes out 2-3 Pokemon (unless they carry Azumarill/Doryuzu/something to force you out). And that was assming Life Orb+25% Iron Thorn+Flare Blitz at full health. Although, that would be pretty tricky to get Blaziken in at full health. (Why is Nattorei running the Helmet? Iron Thorn Blaziken doesn't worry if it's only 12.5%).

 

[Thorhammer]

Rugged Helmet does 1/6 damage on contact, unlike Steel Thorns' 1/8 damage. So with the two of them together, it's actually 29.16% damage, rather than 25%.

But it's a moot point, because Ferrothorn shouldn't be holding a Rugged Helmet in the first place.