If drizzle lasted for 3-6 turns then alderons prop would have been good. But I think he and the people in PR forgot that it last the entire game. This basically forces you to adjust your team to take boosted hydro pumps and surfs all game long. This makes offensive teams almost obsolete.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish
- Thread starter reachzero
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If drizzle lasted for 3-6 turns then alderons prop would have been good. But I think he and the people in PR forgot that it last the entire game. This basically forces you to adjust your team to take boosted hydro pumps and surfs all game long. This makes offensive teams almost obsolete.
Rain as not nearly as threatening as it was with the Swift Swimmers capable of abusing Drizzle. It provides boosts like any other weather condition but is not unmanageable. Really.
Your point? The majority of rain sweepers don't have their own methods of boosting SpA - think Starmie, Politoed, Kingdra, Rotom-W. They NEED the rain boost to compete with the likes of SD Excadrill and friends. They have issues with Latias / Latios, which take the attack and allow you to pivot to a resist on the Ice Beam, too.
But then there are posts like these:
When have you ever played a sand + sun metagame without Drizzle. Never. So if people could stop immediately assuming that a Sand + Sun metagame would be inherently broken, maybe we could get somewhere.
Honestly they both need to be gone. Then our metagame would be complete. Sand is the lesser of the 4 evils. You have sun. You have people spaming flare blitz. You have rain you have people spamming boosted surfs and hydropumps. In sand you only have 2 threats thats really can be dangerous. In sun and rain you have 30+ and 40+ pokemon respectively coming at you with boosted attacks with no set up.
Edit: Yeah you switch in latios and then they switch in naitorai. Now what? They leech seed your next switch in and they bring in a rain abuser. You switch back in latios and they go back to naitorai. See where this is going? And even if you try to bring in a powerhouse most teams are carrying gliscor to stop them.
Edit: Yeah you switch in latios and then they switch in naitorai. Now what? They leech seed your next switch in and they bring in a rain abuser. You switch back in latios and they go back to naitorai. See where this is going? And even if you try to bring in a powerhouse most teams are carrying gliscor to stop them.
Its honestly not that hard to imagine, just face a decent Sun team without running Drizzle and you'd get a feel for it. Often you'd find they run things which wouldn't give a rats ass about Sand and second they get their Sun back up you're staring down the same situation as Rain. Being smacked about by a speed boosted Blaziken, boosted Heatran or being run over by a +2 Tangrowth/Venusaur with no fightback is not really that different. Only reason it is little noticed yet is because Rain is hanging about still.
Don't try to say that Sun has that many viable abusers. For fire types it has Tran, Blaziken, Volcarona, Arcanine, Chandelure and maybe Zard. Grasses - Venusaur, Tangrowth, Shiftry, Sawsbuck, maybe Victreebel. Building a team from all of these to abuse them as much as possible will not get you very far. Moreover, spamming Flare Blitz will only get you so far as well due to the colossal recoil, and all your grass types are maimed by the opponent's fire attacks. Blaziken is a huge threat to Sun teams for a reason. Sun also means you cannot use Water attacks to any effect as Rain cannot use Fire, whilst SS inflicts no such restrictions - the residual damage is far easier to get around and SS has more variety in types to use. Landorus also does actually get a power boost from SS.
Excadrill and Landorus may be the only true abusers, but Sand Veil does to an extent, as do any Rock types, or in fact anything immune to its damaging effect, and in any case quantity of abusers is irrelevant when many of Rain and Sun's fall into a few very similar roles and are generally not used together on a single team due to this (or if they are they have similar counters and are used to break through them, just like normal HO). I really fail to see how Rain and Sun are broken in any way when compared to SS, especially as you say that SS is the lesser of the four weathers when it is almost undoubtedly the most used, most versatile and is just as deadly as the other weathers, if not in exactly the same manner.
First off for fire types its ANY fire type. No need to specify.Im not going to waste time trying to to convince one person of the obvious as it has been stated in the last 2-3 of my post.The ratio of abusers and ways to abuse the weather between sand and rain are exponential. I think it just comes down to people not having the balls to say that the proposal was a complete failure and does exactly the opposite of what it was intended for. There are over 300+ viable pokemon to play with and when you start seeing only 3 pokemon for almost all of the battles on the ladder that should be an instant red flag.
As I said, the viable abusers are the ones I listed, primarily. Feel free to use Flareon or Rapidash, but my point stands. Personally I think your experience of the ladder as apparently almost wholly Rain is quite anomalous, as I experience a lot of SS teams too, in greater numbers than Rain, as well as a fair amount of weatherless teams and other teams (Sun, Hail, TR). Your statement about seeing only three pokemon all the time also conflicts with what you said about Rain (and Sun) having a huge amount of viable abusers, so not sure what to make of that. Feel free to not waste your time trying to convince me, but I don't think I'm alone in believing that Aldaron's proposal has vastly benefitted the metagame and that Rain is no longer overpowering.
Most fire types are not even remotely viable, whereas OU has always been full of water types. And there are not "over 300+ viable pokemon." What do you think the tiers are for in the first place? Because most Pokémon are either outclassed or useless and would never see play if there weren't lower tiers to use them in.
Idk where the "rain is everywhere on the ladder" thing is coming from, I see more sand than rain, and tbh i've found sun teams to be more threatening than rain teams. I mean, what the hell do you switch into Blaziken(or Hihidaruma) in the sun?
The only thing rain has forced me to do is run a grass or electric type or latios on my teams, but aside from that i've not found it all that threatening(though well built and played teams that do have a well though out plan to deal with nattorei/birijion and fast electrics are still tough to beat, but they are rare).
The only thing rain has forced me to do is run a grass or electric type or latios on my teams, but aside from that i've not found it all that threatening(though well built and played teams that do have a well though out plan to deal with nattorei/birijion and fast electrics are still tough to beat, but they are rare).
I use a Sun team and ask myself that every morning when I wake up.
A good switch-in is Flash Fire Chandelure. CC doesn't hit, Flare Blitz doesn't hit, HJK doesn't hit. Flare Blitz even STRENGTHENS Chandelure. Of course, if the Blaziken's got Shadow Claw, all is lost, but Hihi isn't gonna be doing so hot. If the Hihi is choiced, then you've got a free switch to blast with at the very least Sun-boosted Overheat, or to set up a Sub.
Of course, Chandelure has its own problems. I will admit that Hihi is scary as anything.
The problem with Chandelure is that Blaziken often carries Stone Edge or Shadow Claw. If it's running Protect, then I guess you're good to go, though. Then there's the bigger problem of Chandelure being slow; even I've gotten tired of it repeatedly getting blocked by faster Rock/Ground/Ghost moves.
I found Kingdra to be a decent check, albeit far from a counter, to sun teams. Being 4x resistant to fire means a bulkier version can take more or less any fire attack and then Rain Dance. This either forces a Ninetales switch or make Kingdra a beast for 5 turns if they choose not to bring it out. Since most sun teams don't run Natt (lol), then you can forgo hp fire (which has been discussed as a filler move) for Ice Beam to take care of the grass types. Of course, this strat doesn't counter Blaziken as he can OHKO Kingdra after a swords dance (and maybe even before).
Re: Drizzle
My opinion on Drizzle atm still remains. I find it perfectly fine (despite often utilizing sand) and adds an important element to the BW metagame that differentiates it from the previous generations. Having only sandstorm and hail around IMO would highly degrade the metagame (I'm bored of having sand dominate the metagame every generation 3 and up okay?). I would highly prefer that Drizzle stays.
My opinion on Drizzle atm still remains. I find it perfectly fine (despite often utilizing sand) and adds an important element to the BW metagame that differentiates it from the previous generations. Having only sandstorm and hail around IMO would highly degrade the metagame (I'm bored of having sand dominate the metagame every generation 3 and up okay?). I would highly prefer that Drizzle stays.
I've used Scarf Shandera in one of my teams, and it actually does pretty well against Blaziken, provided it gets in safely. Most Blaziken use a neutral spe nature which allows it to outspeed 100% of the time and OHKO with psychic(yeah... but you get to KO Roob too so its nice). With HP Ice It also works pretty well as a revenger for stuff like SD Garchomp and bulky DDNite if Nite isn't at 100%. Aside from that it checks Lati@s and pretty much wrecks sun teams(often walling half of them). Its main issue is TTar and residual damage from hazards if you lack a spinner(I didn't have one) but apart from that its pretty decent overall. I'd imagine a Nitro Charge set to work in this meta, but Heatran outclasses it pretty much so meh.
About drizzle, I fully agree with Jibaku.
And this is the problem. Not complex bans themselves, but bans that are so complex that the broken factor cannot be isolated. Bans should be limited in their complexity to the point that that will not happen, but there is no reason whatsoever to avoid complex bans otherwise.
So you are complaining because basic pokemon dictates that nearly everything can be checked? If Latios forced out their threat, I'm good. The large majority of people so far have found effective ways to deal with it.
And lol 30-40 sun sweepers. Let's be real, there are like 6 viable users of Chlorophyll (Venusaur, Sawsbuck, Shifty, Exeggutor, Tangrowth, Victreebel), and of those Venusaur stands out far ahead as the best - the other five are second-class with the issues they encounter. As for fire-types, there are a few UUs/BLs that can be used (Arcanine, Darmanitan, Infernape), but really how many of those have you faced? You'll see Heatran, Blaziken, and Volcarona. Maybe Solar Power Charizard. So overall, that's like 10 viable users of Drought competing for 3 or so slots on a team.
Yeah, rain is good but it isn't any more threatening than Sand. Sand has faster sweepers like RP Terakion/Landorus and SDExcadrill, but Rain has more power off the bat for lower speed.
As far as switching into Blaziken under sun, there really isn't anything that comes to mind other than Scarf Chandelure. It can still be dealt with through Flare Blitz recoil, cockblocking HJK with Protect, and keeping offensive pressure to prevent it from switching in freely. It also needs a turn to SD (unless it is MixKen, which is downright terrifying).
HP Ice MixKen can be stopped by Slowbro and Kingdra, who can Thunder Wave and Rain Dance (and then Dragon Dance on your Venusaur switch), respectively, to cause problems for the team overall. Any scarfer with more than base 80 speed will fare decently as well - ScarfChomp isn't OHKOd by anything but HP Ice and threatens with EQ. Terakion can't take HJK and Landorus can't do HP Ice or Fire Blast/Blitz, but still outspeeds. ScarfLatios and Rotom-W outrun it at +1 as well. Then there is priority (MH Whimsicott and Voltolos count here too), hazards, LO recoil, and status...
SN: Rain doesn't particularly check Blaziken either. All you need is one turn to SD and you can OHKO things that rain usually runs (LOStarmie, SpecsTornadus, Politoed) with HJK + Stone Edge alone.
EDIT: The current Drizzle + SwSw ban is just as complex as the 1 sweeper ban currently being discussed. With a larger number of threats and factors surfacing with each new generation and game, it is natural to expect that more precise methods are required to achieve the most desirable metagame.
Chandelure is pretty decent, but it's not amazing. Though for an overhyped mon, it does a LOT better than Rampardos.
I'm running a Nitro Charge set and it's nice. I got tired of all the Tyranitars and gave it a Charti Berry which allows me to 2HKO him.
The problem I have is deciding on an item.
A LO gives it a ton of power, but with SR, Spikes, and sand, it goes down quick.
A Balloon lets it check +0 Excadrill and lets it 2HKO Heatran safely with HP Fighting.
A Charti Berry lets it kill T-tar.
A Water-resist berry(Forgot the name) lets it set up a Nitro Charge on Latios' or Starmie's Surf and then easily OHKO with Shadow Ball.
I'd also say that the NC set is not completely out classed by Heatran since Chandy has a better offensive typing that lets it easily kill Physically bulky Slowbro, Latios, Starmie, etc. while having a way better design(IMO).
Chandy will always be on my team, even if it's out classed :P
On the subject about Drizzle:
Really...can we stop talking about Drizzle? We have TONS of pages discussing about it and people are STILL giving suggestions to the ban?
SERIOUSLY?
Regigigas should be BL in Double Battles and Triple Battles.
Because with 176/88/200/0/40/0 EVs and an Adamant nature, its stats are 405/415/306/176/266/236. There is no way that should be allowed in NU in Doubles/Triples when you have Prankster Eviolite Cottonee to use Worry Seed on Regigigas with priority.
Because with 176/88/200/0/40/0 EVs and an Adamant nature, its stats are 405/415/306/176/266/236. There is no way that should be allowed in NU in Doubles/Triples when you have Prankster Eviolite Cottonee to use Worry Seed on Regigigas with priority.
you forgot to mention typhlosion(flash fired max hp sun boosted eruption with scarf hurts)hihidaruma and victini that have the most powerful fire moves in sun(flare blitz and v-generate).and doredia as a chlorophyll abuser with butterfly dance(outclassed by ulgamoth but can make a good pair with him)
surely sun has a lot of viable users.it's a shame to say it doesn't...
Small note: V-Generate is currently illegal.
Agreeing with Kefka that nitro charge chandy isn't outclassed by Heatran. Nitro charge heatran ends his sweep at more things than chandelure does. Charti Berry doesn't sound too bad.Nioether does nitro charge momento.
And lololololololoolol @ the idea of banning drought. I'll agree with you when I can sweep with a combination of rapidash and tangrowth. And from my battles with accidentalgreed, my sun teams have been screwed over by rain dance kingdra more often than anything else. Good thing I carry a jirachi now...a ferrothron on a sun team doesn't seem too bad.
And lololololololoolol @ the idea of banning drought. I'll agree with you when I can sweep with a combination of rapidash and tangrowth. And from my battles with accidentalgreed, my sun teams have been screwed over by rain dance kingdra more often than anything else. Good thing I carry a jirachi now...a ferrothron on a sun team doesn't seem too bad.
i havent played in a while, is Rain Dance Kingdra common now?
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