I Drizzle really that bad, really? even without swift swimmers? come on.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish
- Thread starter reachzero
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Honestly, I didn't think so, but the more I look at it I'm kind of seeing that the reason I do well against them is because I have LO Starmie, ScarfLatios, and Ferrothorn on my team - it is easy for me to force out essentially everything that a Rain team runs; Azumarill and Ferrothorn give me the most issues but even then I can manage.
Starmie is really at the pinnacle of this metagame's speed tiers, so it isn't a surprise that I have few issues with Latios, the genies, Virizion, etc, and I can abuse the rain boost myself while having the coverage to hit other threats. ScarfLatios can devastate a rain team without a healthy Ferrothorn (and with Terakion, it is essentially gg should I get a Rock Polish off and I've removed Azumarill).
So I have the few things that easily revenge the genies (since Starmie's Natural Cure scoffs at Prankster T-Wave) and a few more ways to take advantage of rain on my own. How else do you deal with super powered water moves and the genies superpowered attacks? Because I generally rely on Ferrothorn -> Starmie for Thundurus...and have nothing for Tornadus.
First off, minor edit to my post at 1424, I just added a couple of tally points that were just posted, but thats not a big deal.
The only reason why I was surprised at Excadrill was because I fiigured after the first 2 rounds of him not getting banned, people would just lay off him, and honestly, this suspect thread barely has ANY talk about him at all.
I am a little surprised by the whole drizzle hate again, and although I agree its still really awesome, it just definitely is not as potent as it was when swift swimmers were allowed with it. I feel that the Combo ban was one of the best things to help the metagame balance itself out, and really make the weather manageable... Although I do agree with some of Icymans points on the potency on some of the monsters in rain.
Edit to add: Also, I wish I had time to be able to play and try to vote on this, as I have been following this a lot, but simply do not have time to play considering I am in my last semester of college.... Yet at the same time, I really don't know what the heck I would nominate because nothing really absolutely stands out to me as dangerous in comparison to the last few suspect threads. Latios is definitely the only one that really bugs me, and I actually want to see a metagame WITH OUT Excadrill just to see what its like for a small bit of time. But who knows, I will just have to wait and see what people go with.
The only reason why I was surprised at Excadrill was because I fiigured after the first 2 rounds of him not getting banned, people would just lay off him, and honestly, this suspect thread barely has ANY talk about him at all.
I am a little surprised by the whole drizzle hate again, and although I agree its still really awesome, it just definitely is not as potent as it was when swift swimmers were allowed with it. I feel that the Combo ban was one of the best things to help the metagame balance itself out, and really make the weather manageable... Although I do agree with some of Icymans points on the potency on some of the monsters in rain.
Edit to add: Also, I wish I had time to be able to play and try to vote on this, as I have been following this a lot, but simply do not have time to play considering I am in my last semester of college.... Yet at the same time, I really don't know what the heck I would nominate because nothing really absolutely stands out to me as dangerous in comparison to the last few suspect threads. Latios is definitely the only one that really bugs me, and I actually want to see a metagame WITH OUT Excadrill just to see what its like for a small bit of time. But who knows, I will just have to wait and see what people go with.
I'm kinda theorymoning, but I don't think banning Latios would cause the other dragons to be banned. We still have Latias and her 110 base speed to keep things like Garchomp in check (but of course it's a lot more complicated than that).
In any case, I'm not completely convinced that Latios should go.
In any case, I'm not completely convinced that Latios should go.
I'm kind of tired so I'm sorry of this doesn't make sense, but I think I just had an "epiphany".
Last gen, a Pokemon was deemed Uber under the Offensive Characteristic if (I'm paraphrasing) "under normal battle conditions, a Pokemon had no counter". To think about it, what counters Blaziken, Excadrill, and Latios?
Blaziken can run 4 of SD, Flare Blitz, Fire Blast, HJK, Thunderpunch (is it legal with Speed Boost?), Protect, or Shadow Claw. I believe I read somewhere that Blaziken can OHKO Slowbro even. You can check Blaziken, but what counters it?
Excadrill can run X-Scissor for Bronzong, or Return for Gliscor. Skarmory can only Phaze Excadrill, which is a temporary solution, but I wouldn't consider that a counter for Excadrill. So what counters Excadrill under Sandstorm?
The only real counter to Latios would be Scarf Tyranitar, as it can switch into every move and directly threaten Latios. No other Poke can do that out of fear for HP Fire if the Latios user predicts correctly (maybe Jirachi?), and IIRC Specs Surf can 2HKO Tyranitar. If that is not "uncounterable", it is about as close as it is going to get.
So, I ask, have we changed the definition for a broken Poke with the power creep this generation? You can check all of those threats if you predict correctly, sure, but as I recall Garchomp was banned last gen for having no counter. If the definition has not changed, then it seems clear to me that all 3 of those Pokes are Uber. Would be nice to hear a clarification though as to what is considered "Uber" now to other players, as I have said they all can be checked and they all have their faults.
Edit: And of course after writing that, I remember Pokes like Jirachi are also considered "uncounterable" out of sheer versatility. That ruins some of my logic, but then again all of those Pokes aren't too versatile. Would like to see some thoughts though.
Last gen, a Pokemon was deemed Uber under the Offensive Characteristic if (I'm paraphrasing) "under normal battle conditions, a Pokemon had no counter". To think about it, what counters Blaziken, Excadrill, and Latios?
Blaziken can run 4 of SD, Flare Blitz, Fire Blast, HJK, Thunderpunch (is it legal with Speed Boost?), Protect, or Shadow Claw. I believe I read somewhere that Blaziken can OHKO Slowbro even. You can check Blaziken, but what counters it?
Excadrill can run X-Scissor for Bronzong, or Return for Gliscor. Skarmory can only Phaze Excadrill, which is a temporary solution, but I wouldn't consider that a counter for Excadrill. So what counters Excadrill under Sandstorm?
The only real counter to Latios would be Scarf Tyranitar, as it can switch into every move and directly threaten Latios. No other Poke can do that out of fear for HP Fire if the Latios user predicts correctly (maybe Jirachi?), and IIRC Specs Surf can 2HKO Tyranitar. If that is not "uncounterable", it is about as close as it is going to get.
So, I ask, have we changed the definition for a broken Poke with the power creep this generation? You can check all of those threats if you predict correctly, sure, but as I recall Garchomp was banned last gen for having no counter. If the definition has not changed, then it seems clear to me that all 3 of those Pokes are Uber. Would be nice to hear a clarification though as to what is considered "Uber" now to other players, as I have said they all can be checked and they all have their faults.
Edit: And of course after writing that, I remember Pokes like Jirachi are also considered "uncounterable" out of sheer versatility. That ruins some of my logic, but then again all of those Pokes aren't too versatile. Would like to see some thoughts though.
Thunderpunch is illegal with Speed Boost. I'm not very familiar with calcs for MixKen, but its strongest physical option against Slowbro, Shadow Claw, is a 2HKO at +2, and MixKen isn't as threatening as a sweeper.
OK thanks. I calced a +2 Flare Blitz in the sun and it's a max of 79.7%. So if Slowbro takes no prior damage, with SR and one layer of spikes on the field, and if Blaziken gets a high damage roll, it can OHKO it's biggest counter. If there are no entry hazards, then that's a useless Slowbro anyway (although it did its job and got a kill).
I still see it as Uber due to last generations definition of broken, but then again it can be checked quite easily. Is that the new definition of an Uber?
Also, X-scizzor does not KO Bronzong.
And rachi is only 3hko'd by psecs hp fire if it runs sp def.
And I disagreed with the chomp ban- he had only cressy as a counter, but had plenty of checks (latias, scarf chomp, specs starmie I believe ohko'd). Unlike Blaziken- you wither need to be an offensive team (completely) or pack slowbro- and in both cases you could still lose (Protect and either HP or Sun Boosted Fire Blast).
And rachi is only 3hko'd by psecs hp fire if it runs sp def.
And I disagreed with the chomp ban- he had only cressy as a counter, but had plenty of checks (latias, scarf chomp, specs starmie I believe ohko'd). Unlike Blaziken- you wither need to be an offensive team (completely) or pack slowbro- and in both cases you could still lose (Protect and either HP or Sun Boosted Fire Blast).
OK I'm really tired and procrastinating on my assignment, so I'm forgetting some things.
Balloon, Adamant Dory can 2HKO if it runs X-Scissor (assuming +2) while Gyro Ball doesn't OHKO. If it runs LO, you're right due to EQ. If it's Jolly and Balloon, it's roughly 50/50 (~46%-55%). Not a 100% counter, but pretty solid. I could still argue that that's over centralizing.
I calc'ed Metagross but not Jirachi for some reason.
Anyone who's trying to use residual damage and sandstorm as a means to claim a Pokemon isn't uber should really think hard about that.
"well deoxys-a switches in on sr and sandstorm, and it can only come in after a kill oh yeah it has life orb so thats 10+6 blahblahblah"
Yeah....
Also, NO ONE uses Adamant Doryuzuu
"well deoxys-a switches in on sr and sandstorm, and it can only come in after a kill oh yeah it has life orb so thats 10+6 blahblahblah"
Yeah....
Also, NO ONE uses Adamant Doryuzuu
Whether or not a Pokemon has any counters was never part of the definition of an uber, and for good reason.
IF no counter = imbalanced you are wrong.
See those freakin Groudon which is possibly among the Top 10 Broken pokemon in history.
His counter ? If its less than 3 ill be laughing.
AND before it get mad
SD(no not swords dance) Tyranitar agaiinst Latios
Uninvested Pursuit Powered
95.4% - 111.9%
Latios Surf
37.1% - 44.1%
DM
40.8% - 48.3%
Decide yourself then
See those freakin Groudon which is possibly among the Top 10 Broken pokemon in history.
His counter ? If its less than 3 ill be laughing.
AND before it get mad
SD(no not swords dance) Tyranitar agaiinst Latios
Uninvested Pursuit Powered
95.4% - 111.9%
Latios Surf
37.1% - 44.1%
DM
40.8% - 48.3%
Decide yourself then
Blaziken has one counter and that's Slowbro, but what makes Blaziken so dangerous is that he's just so hard to check (basically, Excadrill in the sand or Azumarill are the only guaranteed checks for Blaziken). Blaziken often ends up killing itself through recoil more than my opponent actually killing it themselves.
Having a counter is a bit of an absurd way of looking at it. Most great Pokemon have ways around their counters (e.g. Jirachi and Celebi can both beat would-be counters fairly easily but neither of them are broken). But if a Pokemon is just absurdly hard to check like Blaziken it's definitely got a case for being broken.
Having a counter is a bit of an absurd way of looking at it. Most great Pokemon have ways around their counters (e.g. Jirachi and Celebi can both beat would-be counters fairly easily but neither of them are broken). But if a Pokemon is just absurdly hard to check like Blaziken it's definitely got a case for being broken.
You're right it has probably never been in the direct definition. All I remember from last gen however is a discussion on how Sand Veil makes Garchomp "uncounterable", how Salamence's DD and Mixed sets were hard to distinguish and therefore hard to send in the proper counter, and Specs Latias made her checks rise in usage (not even counters). It's a fare assumption that if a Poke has no counters, then it's going to rise in usage and over centralize. If there are 3 Pokemon like this and all are deemed OU, then they sort of balance each other out in that it's an offensive metagame without clear over-centralization. I hate the logic that "if everything is broken, it's balanced", but at least it's consistent and can be seen as a metagame shift.
No counter does mean imbalanced, but imbalanced doesn't mean no counter. Because a Pokemon has no counters does make it imbalanced, as theoretically if played correctly it should destroy teams easily. However, just because one of Groudon's sets can be countered doesn't make it not broken. It can run CS, CB, RP, SD, Support, and still have monstrous bulk and attacking stats.
Why would I ever be mad? I'm actually hoping someone convinces me I'm wrong, as I've hated this metagame for a while. Showing me that Latios can 2HKO a Tyranitar with SR up (although not often) does not convince me.
DONT get the point huh ?
About Groudon, i must say i give an example of a ridiculously broken pokemon but it has a complete counter(maybe need more broader Research but groudon DO have hard counter outside uber). Just to make the point since you get this one correctly
I tbh want to give Ttar as example too. Its always a controversial pokemon last gen AND this gen to some extent.
The reason SS can still become one of best weather is because we all know Ttar is really awesome. It has massive amount of versatiliry and potentialy it has really small number of 100 % counter to it. But we couldnt deny that even in previous meta most of the meta check or counter it. In gen 5, roughtly 60 % meta counter it is not enough to make him fall.
It has many counter yet it is controversial proven by how many people say "if theres a broken poke right now it is Ttar" back at Chomp age not because of its SS but its power
It is an enough prove to say even a perfectly counterable pokemon can become a controversial poke though NOT broken(which is funny considering 60 % meta counter him).
IT might be shown on other pokemon too though but i choose Ttar which is a big piece in the metagame as an example
What i meant about that latios calcs is, i just show THIS IS the exact power of latios. WHether it IS broken OR not, depend on your opinion.
Because, you see i am a pro on no latios ban.
My reasoning for Ttar is the he is probably one of (if not, the most) used poke in the ladders right now. It feels like he is run in to almost every other game, and sometimes more depending on where you are on the ladder.
I would arguably say that if a pokemon centralizes the meta game enough, it should be nominated for suspicion. Salamence had some counters from gen 4, but definite required people to run checks and counters.
Is this calc based on the assumption that pursuit is getting latios on the switch or staying in?
I've been somewhat quiet about this for a while, but the nominations thread is looking pretty strange and slightly worrying to me for several reasons.
For one, there are things being nommed with very little reasoning behind them - and any reasoning not really being relevant or explanative of brokenness or similar. This isn't an issue in itself, but when these nominees have also seen virtually no discussion in this enormous topic, it really makes you question justification for them quite seriously.
I primarily refer to the two weather effects being nominated, to be fair. Drizzle itself hasn't been talked about barely at all in this thread, and the same goes for Drought. Occasionally someone will bring it up briefly, but noone else continues discussion of it. I'm not trying to say that these are or aren't broken, just wondering why the hell all of a sudden they're getting nommed with no previous mention of them. It doesn't help that a few voters posted such things as "fuck weather" with little justification - causing me at least worry about a pervading anti-weather attitude left over from Gen 4. If weather is truly broken, then fine, ban it if it is proveable and unavoidable. But if the metagame is simply different for it, then, as we try to emulate the game itself and balance it where needed, surely we should just accept that Gen 5 is different?
A few other less focused issues are with the sheer variety of nominations, lack of even any reasoning behind them, and repeated nominations. The fact that there are such a huge variety of pokemon being nominated is an issue in itself - as this either points to an incredibly imbalanced meta or a fairly balanced one where we are to an extent nitpicking at aspects. This aside, it also creates a practical issue in that if so many suspects are tested at once, how are we to know if some things would not be broken without another? For instance Blaziken and Drought - if Drought is banned then would Blaz prove as unstoppable? Admittedly this is unlikely to occur in the actual voting stages, but just wanted to point it out. Repeated noms I have less issue with if conditions have become more favourable to the mon at hand - Excadrill being nommed again partly due to Drizzle's ban - but very few noms of it point this out, instead merely copypasting the nom from last round. More dubious are things like Latios being nommed again after nothing has seemingly changed in their favour since they were voted OU - this just seems like it'd reach the same result so it is just people trying to get the right voter pool to ban something they want gone even if it is voted OU.
A lot of this is opinion, so feel free to say you disagree, but I can't help feeling like some people are simply treating suspect testing as a chore or a means to create a meta they personally prefer, and just wanted to throw this out there :\. Admittedly I am not a voter so this may come accross as rude, I don't mean everyone by any means, it is just my worry about this community I really enjoy. If anyone has any comments feel free to rebute or whatever, just be aware I may not respond due to limited PC access. Would also love to see discussion of why either weather mentioned is broken currently, since I haven't thus far.
For one, there are things being nommed with very little reasoning behind them - and any reasoning not really being relevant or explanative of brokenness or similar. This isn't an issue in itself, but when these nominees have also seen virtually no discussion in this enormous topic, it really makes you question justification for them quite seriously.
I primarily refer to the two weather effects being nominated, to be fair. Drizzle itself hasn't been talked about barely at all in this thread, and the same goes for Drought. Occasionally someone will bring it up briefly, but noone else continues discussion of it. I'm not trying to say that these are or aren't broken, just wondering why the hell all of a sudden they're getting nommed with no previous mention of them. It doesn't help that a few voters posted such things as "fuck weather" with little justification - causing me at least worry about a pervading anti-weather attitude left over from Gen 4. If weather is truly broken, then fine, ban it if it is proveable and unavoidable. But if the metagame is simply different for it, then, as we try to emulate the game itself and balance it where needed, surely we should just accept that Gen 5 is different?
A few other less focused issues are with the sheer variety of nominations, lack of even any reasoning behind them, and repeated nominations. The fact that there are such a huge variety of pokemon being nominated is an issue in itself - as this either points to an incredibly imbalanced meta or a fairly balanced one where we are to an extent nitpicking at aspects. This aside, it also creates a practical issue in that if so many suspects are tested at once, how are we to know if some things would not be broken without another? For instance Blaziken and Drought - if Drought is banned then would Blaz prove as unstoppable? Admittedly this is unlikely to occur in the actual voting stages, but just wanted to point it out. Repeated noms I have less issue with if conditions have become more favourable to the mon at hand - Excadrill being nommed again partly due to Drizzle's ban - but very few noms of it point this out, instead merely copypasting the nom from last round. More dubious are things like Latios being nommed again after nothing has seemingly changed in their favour since they were voted OU - this just seems like it'd reach the same result so it is just people trying to get the right voter pool to ban something they want gone even if it is voted OU.
A lot of this is opinion, so feel free to say you disagree, but I can't help feeling like some people are simply treating suspect testing as a chore or a means to create a meta they personally prefer, and just wanted to throw this out there :\. Admittedly I am not a voter so this may come accross as rude, I don't mean everyone by any means, it is just my worry about this community I really enjoy. If anyone has any comments feel free to rebute or whatever, just be aware I may not respond due to limited PC access. Would also love to see discussion of why either weather mentioned is broken currently, since I haven't thus far.
I'm also seeing that people are only noming things because they see them as annoying or because they just don't like it, like all the noms for Reuniclus or weather with very little reasoning behind the noms.
I'm not a voter either and I don't want to sound rude, but it just seems that way...
I'm not a voter either and I don't want to sound rude, but it just seems that way...
Out of curiosity, has Bisharp been seeing much usage recently?
I know that 4x fighting weakness plus vulnerability to fire and ground moves is a pretty nasty weakness, but he 4x resists ghost and dark moves, is immune to poison and psychic moves, and 2x resists dragon attacks.
More to the point, his Sucker Punch OHKOs Choice Specs Latias every time I've tested him, and that means it will kill Latios or Deoxys without fail. His ability can give Salamence or Gyarados a hard time, too.
Considering his strengths and weaknesses, am I the only one that thinks a Gengar/Bisharp offensive core has potential?
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On the subject of Blaziken in the sun, I admit I haven't really come up against it (I use a much less powerful Wide Lens+4 attacks set) but aren't its sweeping chances reduced by a lot if you're able to use its recoil moves against it? Flare Blitz hurts a lot if it OHKOs something, to the point that a HJK miss can be fatal. Wouldn't it be easiest to bait a HJK and try and fake him out by switching in a ghost? Even if they're wise to that, Protect makes HJK a huge gamble to use, too.
If I'm being naive, please let me know, because I'm mostly going on theory here. It just seemed like HJK's boost also presents an exploitable achilles' heel for sweepers using it as their fighting move. -50% HP every time you miss is one hell of a weakness.
I'm not denying Groudon can be countered. I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I said Groudon is banned not because it is uncounterable, but because the sheer number of sets it can run effectively and the base stats, typing, and ability, make Groudon amazing. It is counterable though, but still broken. A dog is an animal, but an animal is not necessarily a dog. If something is uncounterable it should be banned, but if it's banned it is not necessarily uncounterable.
So essentially we're agreeing that Tyranitar is counterable and MAY be broken based on opinion. What I am saying is if it is uncounterable it should be banned as well.
I believe Bisharp is fairly frail, but I've been meaning to try it out myself, so I can't give you an opinion on how good it is.
Yes, Blaziken can be played around (using protect when it HJK's is hilarious). I'm just questioning how a seemingly uncounterable Poke (its best counter can still be OHKOed in a somewhat common situation) is in this meta and if this meta is going to be based around offensive sacrifices and revenge killing. Everything I have mentioned (Excadrill, Blaziken, and Latios) can be revenged with priority or just by not switching in a decent counter right away (using a Deoxys-S as death fodder for Tyranitar on a Latios). I just find it strange how last gen's definition of broken and this gen's definition is so far off.
where IS the nomination thread?
sorry, i know its a stupid nooby question...
sorry, i know its a stupid nooby question...
Blaziken is an odd case since Speed Boost is such a unique and essentially uncounterable ability in and of itself, given how speed functions. Blaziken itself certainly requires a strange method to counter - either lots of hazards + probably CB Priority, or some combination of the above with residual damage from its own attacks.
Anything it needs to HJK can force it to lose half its life by using Protect, but there are few things which would do this except for the purpose of countering Blaz (Kingdra, Heatran, etc), making it not very viable. Perhaps better is saccing something with big HP to it so it dies due to FB recoil - but in Sun it can run blaze kick, making it even less likely to get into priority range. Scarfed based 108s and up can beat it even at +2, but that relies on the opponent not being a dick and trying to double protect, which many do.
Essentially, I'm not sure I personally know what I think on the issue. It seems to me quite likely Blaziken may be broken due to the amount of team planning that has to go on to guarantee its demise, and the fact that Blaz can screw this over with protect or a Special set. Sun making it harder to inflict recoil is just the icing on the cake. It may not be very overcentralising since you can always just make it kill itself, but the holes it leaves in your team will be insane if you don't plan for it, which often requires half a team from a reasonably short list of options. To me, it seems the largest suspect currently, though I think the meta is reasonably balanced.
Anything it needs to HJK can force it to lose half its life by using Protect, but there are few things which would do this except for the purpose of countering Blaz (Kingdra, Heatran, etc), making it not very viable. Perhaps better is saccing something with big HP to it so it dies due to FB recoil - but in Sun it can run blaze kick, making it even less likely to get into priority range. Scarfed based 108s and up can beat it even at +2, but that relies on the opponent not being a dick and trying to double protect, which many do.
Essentially, I'm not sure I personally know what I think on the issue. It seems to me quite likely Blaziken may be broken due to the amount of team planning that has to go on to guarantee its demise, and the fact that Blaz can screw this over with protect or a Special set. Sun making it harder to inflict recoil is just the icing on the cake. It may not be very overcentralising since you can always just make it kill itself, but the holes it leaves in your team will be insane if you don't plan for it, which often requires half a team from a reasonably short list of options. To me, it seems the largest suspect currently, though I think the meta is reasonably balanced.
They might not explain the nom at all if it is already been nommed with an excessive explanation before.
I can't speak for them, but I believe the idea of banning weather is frowned upon unless multiple weathers are banned. Drizzle did get nerfed, but is still pretty powerful, and the idea behind banning drought, I assume, is because people figure without drizzle, sun and sand would be even more around (I have not seen munch hail around so I am excluding that). It doesn't mean that's the right move, but that is my guess at the justification.
Those people annoy me too, but I don't think anyone here can deny that weather is playing a HUGE role in the meta right now. The question comes down to is it healthy or not. I personally think it isn't healthy, especially when I complain about weather, the counter to weather is to run my own weather. It is kind of like the 'run clear smog' argument that people were giving when inconsistent was being judged for uber. As far as weather locking goes, only 3 pokemon can stop weather, one is uber (Rayquaza) and the other two are, in my opinion, unplayable in OU (golduck and Lickylicky). the reason I haven't done as well this round is because I have been trying to test non weather teams with little sucess, as I have no way to shut down speed boosts (with the exception of a trick room team I developed late last round). I find that if I want the best chance to vote, I should probably put my sand team back together and get cracking (I peaked around 1300 in round 1, before getting my poop pushed in by some really good rain teams).
Again, many people do not like how relevant weather is in gen 5, so people want it changed.
I know someone posted this before, but the gen 4 ubers that returned to OU is believed to be causing a bit of a psuedo balance, and I agree with him that returning them all at once was a mistake.
Each one sort of balances themselves out, much like the demon kings from Yu yu Hakusho. The point being that the balance is really between only a couple of commonly run pokemon (e.g. Latios isn't seen as broken by people who run scizor or tyranitar, Salamence and Latias are rarely seen because of better dragons running around, and many new things can now check each other).
The diversity, imo, is also a lie. I commonly see the exact same teams with the exact same core (in most cases, weather related), with a diffrence of about 1-3 pokes, that they consider 'diverse' (for sand, it is typically ttar, scizor, dory/landlos/garchomp (could be two or all three), a water type that could be (starmie, burru, rotom(w), or something bulky), gliscor or another decent wall, free spot, (probably a special attacker)). It isn't always this case, but this is how I feel
I think Drought just makes the guy even more ridic. He still has a huge advantage without drought, but with drought, I don't believe anything can safely switch into it AND a lot of things such as choice band azumaril and slowbro lose the ability to OHK him, without recoil, counting SR.
I honestly don't disagree with most of your opinion, merely offering my own, but rereading the noms, I definitely understand and see where you are getting the opinion that some people are just self crafting the meta to fit their credentials. Mine are a bit radical myself, but I am smart enough to realize that my ideas would never be implemented at this stage, so I accept what the meta is, and simply try to approve it (I only nominated Blaze and evasion items). Ideally, I want to see Latios and Sandveil/Snow Cloak gone, but I think I am going to wait until Garchomp's dream world (rough skin) is released, because I do not believe garchomp on his own, is banned. the problem occurs when one game out about four, I lose because my supposed counter, gets the miss on the ice attack and he sets up.
Exactly, I don't mean to point this out to you but to anyone reading - we cannot simply ban things we think would be broken next meta based on speculation of what will go this round. I don't think anyone did this, but if you're right and people nommed Drought based upon it presumably being broken if Drizzle goes - then this is simply not the way we should go about the suspect process. The accepted nominations have reflected this ideal thus far though, so I have faith in Phil and his team.
Indeed, I think the main thing unhealthy about it would be the forcing people to run one of 5 inducers in order to get their least hated weather up, and this makes teams develop into a dedicated SS one usually as Exca becomes the best possible revenger, etc. However I truly think one thing people need to embrace is the use of a weather move on something on a non-weather team, which allows you to shift momentum in your favour by surprise (as team preview allows you to see mons not movesets, so many will sac their inducer if need be against non-weather teams) as well as provide small temporary bonuses for your team if built to consider it. This may not have been viable last gen, but I see it as something similar to Rapid Spin - if your team is weak to hazards, either build a team not weak to them or run this move to get rid of them. I'm sure you see where I'm coming from, even if you don't agree.
That's perfectly fine, the stuff I haven't responded too I pretty much agree with too. Your nominations are what I at present am considering nominating, actually. Interesting to hear your pov :).
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