np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

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So this is a slightly odd post but I just wanted to say that I'm currently testing a new nonweather team and so far I've never really wished I had an inducer. It's Triple steel because Dragon Attacks are everywhere with a core that seeks to check the majority of the metagame, a lead that also traps and eliminates Unaware Quagsire and then Thundrus as the sixth member to rip through weakened teams. I've only reached #500 as of yet though, so I could encounter more difficulty while progressing.
(The team is Heatran/Scizor/Thundrus/Latias/Rotom-W/Skarmory, if anyone was interested.)
Being completely immune to Tspikes is suprisingly helpful, because it's one less thing to worry about when facing stall. My general strategy is to setup Spikes and SR and then continuously pahze and force switches to wear the opp down, simultaneously damaging bulky waters with Magma Storm/HP Grass Heatran so that when Thundrus finally emerges, everything that is faster/bulky enough to avoid a 2HKO is dead or weakened in the second case.
Anyway I just felt like I ought to say that nonweather is doing well so far with about eleven wins and one loss - ten of those wins versus weather teams.
 
Weather certainly isn't mandatory to do well in the metagame, even though many people have stated this already. I managed to get up to #81 without a weather changer or move, but weather users that knew what they were doing did screw me over a bit. It did give me the advantage of not having to constantly battle to keep my weather condition going, though.
 
^^ That is very true. I live my team because it allows me to concentrate purely on the opponents pokemon and how I'm going to deal with them rather than concerning itself with weather, and to a degree, hazards.
Mini-update still around the 500 mark because I lost twice to a 'gimmicky' team running loads of unusal sets with super effective moves coming out of nowhere. The first time I lost to the suprise factor and the second time I lost to a crit.
lol.
Anyway for me now running nonweather semi-nonweather teams are probably the biggest problem. The ones with no weather abusers generally aren't so great versus weather but can do a lot of damage to opposing nonweather teams.
 
Yeah, nobody needs to use weather to do well in the metagame. Weather orientated teams do tend to be some of the best, although some people claim they're "forced" to use weather teams, which totally isn't true. Saying you're "forced" to use something is more an easy way to win an arguement, than anything.

You have to take weather into account if you want to make a good competitive team, in a similar way that you have to take into account Stealth Rock, Outrage, etc.
 
As long as you consider the threats in weather teams, you'll be capable of taking them on with non-weather teams. I personally find rain very easy because I use Ferrothorn, and Sand isn't much of a problem either because I have Gliscor. Sun was becoming a problem for me, however, so I replaced one of my Pokemon with a typical sun abuser that works just fine outside of sun, and whenever a sun team appears it's easy set-up bait. Sometimes your greatest weapon can be your greatest enemy.
 
Thats funny. No matter how much counter i pack that "DM" always fuck my ass.
Seriously i use SDef Rachi, Natts, and Rotom on same team and still get crapped over by that Confusing "DM". If not "DM", then Pseudo Garchomp is the one kicking my ass
 
congrats to all three of you.

lets ban weather


also if you lose to latios with ferrothorn and spdef rachi...that's bad lol
 

PK Gaming

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfHBPusZg6E&feature=related

Anything Sazy does Lati does better, anything Sazy does Lati does too.



Latios - Draco Meteor / Surf / Ice Beam (or T-Bolt) / HP Fire

Sazandora - Draco Meteor / Surf / Dark Pulse / Fire Blast

Latios outclasses Sazandora because...

a) Better Speed
b) Better Special Attack
c) Resistant to fighting, much more common and threatening than dark.
d) Better movepool (Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, etc.)

Sazandora can be almost as good as Latios because...

a) Fire Blast over HP Fire
b) Not weak to Sucker Punch

That's about it. Latios just simply outclasses Sazandora.

I do agree with you that I hope Latios gets the boot.

Edit: Sorry, still used to Japanese names. Like 'em better. Sazandora / Sazy = Hydreigon.
Wrong. Latios hardly outclasses Hydreigon because it has access to Focus Blast to bypass Tyranitar. Not to mention it can go mixed, has access to Taunt and U-turn too. I'll admit that Latios is better than Hydreigon because of its superior speed, access to recovery and trick to mess up Blissey & Chansey. I also think Psychic is a more valuable sub typing than Dark in this metagame.

(LO Modest with Draco Meteor / Focus Blast / Dark Pulse / Fire Blast is the ideal Hydreigon set... its almost impossible to outright counter w/o Chansey & Blissey)
 

Moo

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Ok, After some laddering I dont think anything is particularly broken, apart from garchomp in the sand. Anything you attack it with that would have full accuracy is basically a stone edge, which is annoying. Sand veil isnt particularly broken in general, but garchomp is one of those pokes that can really do serious damage with it, and all it needs is one turn to wreck shit.
 

Meru

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Guys unless you get top 10 with your non-weather teams, it's not really a feat to bring to this thread.
 

Jibaku

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I agree with PK that Latios does not outclass Hydreigon. Access to Focus Blast (don't use Surf) and resistance to Pursuit goes a long way to differentiate itself from the faster Dragon. Granted, Latios will often find its way into teams easier than Hydreigon due to its Speed, but that doesn't mean it outclasses Hydreigon. Should either Dragon put you on the defensive, often times Hydreigon will pose a bigger threat due to its superior coverage.

And ugh I don't want to have to repeat everything I said on the last thread about Latios being not broken at all but w/e. If you keep getting mashed up by Draco Meteor with SDef Jirachi and Ferrothorn, you're just playing badly -__-. I've used noticeably lesser Latios checks than these before, and it was rarely problematic.
 
I would say that Hydreigon is a bit more threatening than Latios once it's in. It can be quite hard to decide what to switch into the former, while with the latter Tyranitar or a bulky Steel is usually a safe bet. However, it can't switch into quite as many threats as Latios can, which is why it ultimately gets shafted quite often in Latios's favour.

Guys unless you get top 10 with your non-weather teams, it's not really a feat to bring to this thread.
Enough with this arrogance. This thread is about posting experiences and thoughts on the metagame, not parading around how high your rating is and shutting down other people. Rating is not exactly an infallible measure of metagame knowledge or even playing skill. How about you actually contribute to the thread instead of posting empty expressions of contempt like this?
 
Latios is good, but is it too good? Latios is the only pokemon here with that I would be ok with in banning, it can fit on to basically any team with its amazing typing, and it does have the potential to be overcentralizing, but then again so is ferrothorn and Blissey, and we don't ban them for being on a magority of teams. But unlike those 2 it has signifigant offense, and access to the amazing draco meteor, which murders many pokemon. And yes, after a draco meteor, its a dead weight, and basically anything can come in, like scizor which then swords dances up, among with things that take advantage of the situtation, but is that a sign of an unhealthy metagame? Your almost forced to have a latios check. But then again many pokemon can spam draco meteor's power, Sazandora can lose its special attack and still hit hard with physcial moves.

Overall I am iffy on it, but everything else here is fine, although I still believe individual swift swimmers should be looked at, but saddly thats not being tested. So I suppose I shall be prevented from sweeping teams with swift swim Luvdisc for a few more months...
 

Moo

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Eh, tbh most common pokes can stop Latios like Ttar, Spdef Rachi, Ferrothorn and Scizor. Those, and a little prediction. I've never really had a problem with it because I always run one or two of those anyway. Most players do, I'm sure
 
Eh, tbh most common pokes can stop Latios like Ttar, Spdef Rachi, Ferrothorn and Scizor. Those, and a little prediction. I've never really had a problem with it because I always run one or two of those anyway. Most players do, I'm sure
Yes, it has it counters in OU, but so does Mewtwo, so should we allow Mewtwo into OU? Of course not.

But then again, anything can give you problems if you don't counter it right. I can see it for both sides, but what pushed me over toward banning is unlike other pokemon, you need an exact counter for it, instead of the general "counters dragon types wall," or else your a gonner, becuase of its amazing movepool, like Mewtwo, but unlike a pokemon like Dory of Runicles, which you can have a general wall for.
 

alphatron

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As said before, Specs isn't the only set that Latios can run nor is it the only set worth running. In the past, Sp. Def Jirachi would switch into my LO Sun boosted HP Fires all the time. Metagross too. I would usually just momento against tyranitar and have blaziken (and then NP Infernape) set up on him after the -2/-2.

In the distant future, when Shadow Tag chandelure is released, Latios WILL become a problem though. Now its counters are reduced to nothing more than just Tyranitar and Sp. Def Calm Heatran in the sun only. As Chandelure takes care of everything else with certain ease.
 

cosmicexplorer

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Actually, that's not true. Specially Defensive Jirachi is often used to counter Dragon-types, and it easily walls Latios, as does Ferrothorn, while Scizor provides a good check to many Dragon-types, and this holds true for Latios too. Tyranitar is used to take out Psychic-types, and it can take out Latios with ease.
 
mewtwo doesn't have any counter in the 5th gen with that new psychic move :o .. but this isn't the topic ..

I think the metagame is pretty cool now , except for reuniclus who's really a PAIN , either you have a scizor or tyranitar or you lose simple as that ...

but i have to agree that latios should be banned ... that DM is pretty nasty ..

anyway i think the meta would be pretty enjoyable with these two poke out of OU ..
 
Yes, it has it counters in OU, but so does Mewtwo, so should we allow Mewtwo into OU? Of course not.

But then again, anything can give you problems if you don't counter it right. I can see it for both sides, but what pushed me over toward banning is unlike other pokemon, you need an exact counter for it, instead of the general "counters dragon types wall," or else your a gonner, becuase of its amazing movepool, like Mewtwo, but unlike a pokemon like Dory of Runicles, which you can have a general wall for.
You can say that about anything -.-

Gee Sunflora has its fair share of counters in OU, but so does Kyogre. Sunflora for Ubers!!1!

Latios's common counters - Tyranitar, Jirachi, Blissey, Chansey, Ferrothorn, Metagross, Scizor, etc. Since when are Ferrothorn and Scizor not "generic dragon move absorbers?" All of those Pokemon also check or counter many other Pokemon, and contribute a lot more to their team than "beats Latios."
 
Eh, tbh most common pokes can stop Latios like Ttar, Spdef Rachi, Ferrothorn and Scizor. Those, and a little prediction. I've never really had a problem with it because I always run one or two of those anyway. Most players do, I'm sure
Well, wait a second. Didn't we INVENT all of those sets mostly to kill Latios in this day and age? I mean, besides Ferrothorn, none of those pokemon were popularly used as special walls before Latios became OU.

Granted, they still serve a purpose, but I think a bunch of things that are so very common in 5th Gen are common because Lati@s is legal.
 

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I wonder if any of the people who claim Drizzle is broken have tried using Kingdra or Ludicolo on their non-rain teams.
I've tried Ludicolo, but it hasn't really been pulling its weight when the opponent isn't running rain, so I've reverted to spreading paralysis everywhere and using slower, bulkier hitters :/
Maybe I'll try a bulky-DD Kingdra next. Problem is, it's walled by Ferrothorn.

Latios is good, but is it too good? Latios is the only pokemon here with that I would be ok with in banning, it can fit on to basically any team with its amazing typing, and it does have the potential to be overcentralizing, but then again so is ferrothorn and Blissey, and we don't ban them for being on a magority of teams. But unlike those 2 it has signifigant offense, and access to the amazing draco meteor, which murders many pokemon. And yes, after a draco meteor, its a dead weight, and basically anything can come in, like scizor which then swords dances up, among with things that take advantage of the situtation, but is that a sign of an unhealthy metagame? Your almost forced to have a latios check. But then again many pokemon can spam draco meteor's power, Sazandora can lose its special attack and still hit hard with physcial moves.

Overall I am iffy on it, but everything else here is fine, although I still believe individual swift swimmers should be looked at, but saddly thats not being tested. So I suppose I shall be prevented from sweeping teams with swift swim Luvdisc for a few more months...
One moment people are arguing that Latios doesn't have enough counters, the next moment people are arguing that it's broken because people are carrying counters to it o.O
The thing about Latios is that it can't really sweep or devastate a team on its own. Its counters are incredibly good at taking advantage of its choice-locked or -2 SpA state, so Latios doesn't really seem to preserve enough momentum to really be broken. (Speaking of momentum, check out the CAP Final Product!) Latios actually hasn't been a problem for me for... this entire metagame.

Edit:
Well, wait a second. Didn't we INVENT all of those sets mostly to kill Latios in this day and age? I mean, besides Ferrothorn, none of those pokemon were popularly used as special walls before Latios became OU.

Granted, they still serve a purpose, but I think a bunch of things that are so very common in 5th Gen are common because Lati@s is legal.
Well, TTar would still be popular to check rain teams. Ferrothorn is great otherwise. Scizor... lol. It wasn't common before?
Just because a threat causes pokemon to be popular doesn't mean it's broken. The fact that there are so many hard counters to it is rather telling. Look at Skarmory. It was basically the entire reason why Magneton and subsequently Magnezone have been OU. Is Skarmory broken? The general consensus is no.

I think the metagame is pretty cool now , except for reuniclus who's really a PAIN , either you have a scizor or tyranitar or you lose simple as that ...
lolwut
Okay here's how you beat Reuniclus: Don't let it set up. Reuniclus is an excellent bulky attacker, sure. But it is countered by a lot of things. CM Roar Latias, the TTar and Scizor you mentioned... and then things based on what moves its carrying. As was mentioned a few pages ago, Reuniclus can't carry Trick Room / Calm Mind / Recover / Psychic / Psychock / Focus Blast / Shadow Ball all at the same time. All you really need to do to beat Reuniclus is to not carry pokemon that are setup fodder to it. Hit it when it comes in, hit it as it sets up, hit it before it can Recover. You'll lose one pokemon at most.
 
Yeah it does have its fair share of counters in OU, a few of them I should note, can beat if it has the right moves. With that considered, only Tyranitar and Chansey can take most forms, and surf still does much damage to Tyraitar. But I do see your point, there are some generic counters you can use for it, but they don't work all the time depending on the set, and yes that can be said for a large amount of OU pokemon aswell, but usually if that happens they still don't sweep your whole team.

Honestly I don't even care that much about Latios, I just find it to be the only debatable pokemon in this whole thread, and even with it I am not doing so hot in defending my position, just to show how much nonsense appeared here.
 
Another mini-update just for fun.
Discovered my team is weak to bulky volcorona with morning sun.
Discovered my team is Mixmence weak.
Discovered Nasty Plot Thundrurus is very strong indeed.
Decided to make extensive modifications to the team to make it somehow less flawed.

Anywho, sicne everybody is talking about Latios, I will too. Specfs Draco Meteor is annoying but for me the most annoying set to face is scarf. It's faster than almost everything, will OHKO your sweeper with Draco Meteor/Hp Fire/Surf. It can also cripple the switchin or sweeper with trick if it's not strong enough to OHKO you. That means that there are no safe switchins and it's practically impossible to revenge outside of weather. It is easier for Tyranitar to kill than the specs set though.
Anyway because I feel like talking some more about weather - if they spin succesfully, bulky Volcorona in sun can be huge. With Morning Sun, it can only be killed by rock movesonce it has a single QD under it's belt, and things like Heatran that normally put a stop to it are brushed aside by +6 Bug Buzz. Even with Rocks, it can still sweep quite easily because 100 base speed is by no means bad and it outruns many bulkier pokemon (who incidentally are a must-have on weatherless teams.) allowing it to heal off the damage it took before Quiver Dancing up. I've taken to using Sturdy Skarmoury with Brave Bird in a pinch, which is something of a waste.
Also as far as I've seen stall is ripped to pieces by Nasty Plot Thundurus if it has a Lum Berry. The Lum lets it power through specially defensive Jirachi, who can't paralyze it before being 2HKO'd, while Blissey falls to two Focus Blasts and can't hit it with Twave either. It also let's you take priority Thunder Wave/Stun Spore and keep going.
 
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