np: Stage 3 - Family Reunion ("This Is Why I Created" Remix)

[Seven Deadly Sins]

TBH, defensive dragons are shit in this metagame. It's because every team is so goddamn paranoid of all the OFFENSIVE dragons that using a defensive dragon is pretty much dead space. It can't switch in on offensive mons, it can barely switch in on defensive ones, and if you run any sort of offense with it, Latios is infinitely better.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I'm pretty surprised people think Garchomp is "Uber" in this metagame, since it's a borderline case to begin with. (see: Suspect status) With the advent of Scizor, addition of Latias to OU, the continually increasing emphasis on Speed, even the other Suspects if you want to count them, Garchomp is weaker on the Stage 3 Suspect Ladder than it's ever been. Yet, there's all too many people that seem to believe it's actually more uber than EVERY other suspect.

Right, because a pokemon that is OHKOd by Garchomp and needs a Choice Band to have a chance at barely 2hkoing Garchomp and a different pokemon that cant switch into Garchomp definitely make it OU. Great reasoning there.

With the advent of Scizor and the addition of Latias to OU, the continually increasing emphasis on Speed, even the other Suspects if you want to count them, Mew and Wobbuffet are weaker on the Stage 3 Suspect Ladder than they have ever been.

Educate yourself! Free MEW AND WOBBUFFET (or better yet MrE could just stop using arguments that apply to blatantly Uber pokemon to justify Garchomp being OU)

I would agree on removing Latias from the Suspect test ultimately - it's just massively outclassed by her brother, and it's barely a threat. Furthermore, I rarely see them to begin with, which is a bit of a problem when we might be forced to use a Pokemon that is largely inferior for the sake of SEXP.

Latias being worse than Latios doesn't make Latias OU. Maybe the problem is that you aren't using it correctly? Latias has an amazing defensive niche, that 110 base SpAtk is just an added bonus. Latias is the odd one out with the overpowered Uber Dragons running around, you're right about it being ignored...but it's still a suspect lol

 

[wildfire393]

That isn't true for Salamence. Look at Gyarados, and Porygon2, both are slower, but can stop Mixed and Physical (non Spec'd) sets with Intimidate / Trace Intimidate. They are slower, but ultimately, have the HP and Defenses (and Special Defense) to take at least nuetral hits.

While Porygon2 is a specific counter for DDMence, Gyarados is an equal counter to both DDSalamence and SD Garchomp. Let's look at the numbers, shall we?

versus 252/252 Positive Gyarados -
+0 LO Outrage from 232/Neutral Salamence: 55%-65%
+1 Yache Outrage from 252/Neutral Garchomp: 62-74%

Garchomp does more, of course, but it's still not enough to guarantee an OHKO, even with SR on the field.

Additionally, Porygon2 is completely incapable of stopping Mixed Salamence sets, but still does decently against Garchomp's non-SD Sets:
252/Positive LO Draco Meteor (Classic MixMence) versus 252/0/Neutral Pory2 ("Defensive Duck"): 92-108%. Guaranteed OHKO with SR, good chance of OHKO without.
252/Neutral Scarfed Earthquake versus 252/216/Positive Pory2: 46-54%. Meaning even if he can't switch into it, he can still take one Earthquake and fire back an Ice Beam on the Revenge.

 

[Veedrock]

While Porygon2 is a specific counter for DDMence, Gyarados is an equal counter to both DDSalamence and SD Garchomp.

Um, what? Ok, I'm guessing we're assuming Ice Fang over Stone Edge? I won't get into DDMence but Gyarados is a very shaky counter at best. Now, about Garchomp, so you can take one Outrage (barely), "then what?" You specifically said Yache Chomp which will survive anything you can throw at it:

0 Ice Fang vs. 4/0 Garchomp: 67.04% - 79.33% (Note: This is NOT including Yache Berry, Yache takes 33.52% - 39.66%).
0 Avalanche+ vs. 4/0 Garchomp: 60.89% - 72.07% (This is including Yache).

You come in on SD so it's plus +1. It hits you for as much as you hit it, and then it proceeds to KO you next turn. That's not a counter at all.

 

[wildfire393]

Um, what? Ok, I'm guessing we're assuming Ice Fang over Stone Edge? I won't get into DDMence but Gyarados is a very shaky counter at best. Now, about Garchomp, so you can take one Outrage (barely), "then what?" You specifically said Yache Chomp which will survive anything you can throw at it:

0 Ice Fang vs. 4/0 Garchomp: 67.04% - 79.33% (Note: This is NOT including Yache Berry, Yache takes 33.52% - 39.66%).
0 Avalanche+ vs. 4/0 Garchomp: 60.89% - 72.07% (This is including Yache).

You come in on SD so it's plus +1. It hits you for as much as you hit it, and then it proceeds to KO you next turn. That's not a counter at all.

Hey, I wasn't the one who said that Gyarados was a counter for Mence either. The standard "Defensive" Gyarados (i.e. the only one with 252/252/+) is Rest/Sleep Talk/Waterfall/Roar, which is actually worse against Mence than against Garchomp. I was just illustrating how Garchomp at best dealt a comparable amount to these Pokemon the other poster had listed as "counters" to Mence and not Garchomp.

Also, further regarding that person's post. You state that Gyarados can effectively counter Mixed variations of Mence. From my calculations, a 252/Neutral Draco Meteor does 67-79% to Gyarados, pretty much guaranteeing the 2HKO even without SR.

 

[tab]

Something people really need to stop overlooking is Modest Specs Shaymin. Considering how much Specs Latios has been hyped, I'm suprised fewer people have tried out Specsmin. Sure, the SR weakness hurts, but it's still incredibly dangerous, imo it's even more dangerous than Specs Latios is.
Seeing as the point of this test is to work out what's broken, I'm going to reiterate what LR said:

Seed Flare vs 0/176 Calm Blissey:
558 Atk vs 386 Def & 651 HP (120 Base Power): 186 - 220 (28.57% - 33.79%)
If you get a Sp. Def drop, that's a 2HKO after SR almost all of the time. A specs user having a 58% chance to 2HKO Blissey is pretty impressive.

Seeing as a few people have tried suggesting these when I've mentioned Specsmin before;

Seed Flare vs 248/224 Calm Zapdos:
558 Atk vs 299 Def & 383 HP (120 Base Power): 120 - 142 (31.33% - 37.08%)
Again, 2HKOed after SR 58% of the time, and it's a 2HKO after SR even without the Sp. Def drop given a bit of residual damage.

Seed Flare vs 252/252 Calm Dragonite:
558 Atk vs 328 Def & 386 HP (120 Base Power): 110 - 129 (28.50% - 33.42%)
Again, a 58% chance to 2HKO after SR.

Seed Flare vs 4/0 Timid Latios:
558 Atk vs 256 Def & 302 HP (120 Base Power): 140 - 165 (46.36% - 54.64%)
2HKO after SR, with or without the Sp. Def drop.

Seed Flare vs 128/0 Timid Latias:
558 Atk vs 296 Def & 333 HP (120 Base Power): 122 - 144 (36.64% - 43.24%)
Yet again, 2HKOed.

So basically, you need a 4x resist in order to switch into it. Let's look at the common 4x resists:

Seed Flare vs 252/252 Careful Skarmory:
558 Atk vs 262 Def & 334 HP (120 Base Power): 68 - 81 (20.36% - 24.25%)
Skarmory is one of the safer switches, and manages to avoid the 2HKO, but it's still not going to like taking those.

Seed Flare vs 252/0 Relaxed Forretress:
558 Atk vs 156 Def & 354 HP (120 Base Power): 115 - 135 (32.49% - 38.14%)
2HKO after SR.

Seed Flare vs 248/8 Adamant Scizor (which is about as specially bulky as CB Scizors get):
558 Atk vs 198 Def & 343 HP (120 Base Power): 91 - 107 (26.53% - 31.20%)
There's a chance of a 2HKO after SR, assuming Scizor is at 100%, so you're pretty much sacrificing Scizor to dent Skymin.

Seed Flare vs 240/212 Adamant Scizor (the specially defensive trapper Scizor me and a few other have used):
558 Atk vs 249 Def & 341 HP (120 Base Power): 72 - 85 (21.11% - 24.93%)
This is pretty much as safe as switchins get, although this Scizor spread is pretty rare at the moment.

That's just with Seed Flare. The vast majority of potential switch-ins are 2HKOed by it, meaning that it's not even that much of a risk selecting Seed Flare as your attack.

Taking Skymins other attacks and a bit of prediction into account, it starts to look even more dangerous:

Air Slash vs 240/212 Adamant Scizor:
558 Atk vs 249 Def & 341 HP (75 Base Power): 181 - 214 (53.08% - 62.76%)

Air Slash vs 252/252 Careful Skarmory:
558 Atk vs 262 Def & 334 HP (75 Base Power): 86 - 102 (25.75% - 30.54%)
Again, Skarmory is pretty much as safe as you get, although this is where Skymin's ability to flinch through its counters can come into play.

HP Fire vs 252/252 Careful Skarmory:
558 Atk vs 262 Def & 334 HP (70 Base Power): 214 - 254 (64.07% - 76.05%)

Air Slash vs 128/0 Timid Latias:
558 Atk vs 296 Def & 333 HP (75 Base Power): 153 - 180 (45.95% - 54.05%)

And so on.

tl;dr? Basically, Specsmin can 2HKO pretty much anything that switches into it without much difficulty at all, and doesn't have to worry about getting locked in to a -2 Sp. Atk Draco Meteor, nor does it have to worry about choosing what attack to use much, as chances are, if you click Seed Flare, then something is going to be taking a lot of damage.

 

[Mr.E]

With regard to Gyarados vs. Garchomp, Gyarados can also lay down a DD and proceed to 20% Waterfall flinch him to death much like Garchomp haxes shit with Sand Veil. How 'bout them apples? -_-

Oh, and Specs Skymin is pretty damn brutal too. I really don't have much to say there.

TBH, defensive dragons are shit in this metagame. It's because every team is so goddamn paranoid of all the OFFENSIVE dragons that using a defensive dragon is pretty much dead space. It can't switch in on offensive mons, it can barely switch in on defensive ones, and if you run any sort of offense with it, Latios is infinitely better.

They, where by they I really mean "defensive Latias," can switch in on plenty of pokémon. It's one of the better Skymin switch-ins and it poops all over Heatran and Zapdos. It can actually tank Ice Beams fairly well when it's not running a 252/252 offensive spread and Fighting resist is pretty big. It also isn't liable to die to Pursuit half the time without doing anything useful, if you're using Reflect. :/ Latias has a good set of resists for something that isn't a Steel-type. It actually complements those quite well since it resists all of Steel's weaknesses, plus Water and Electric which are typically neutral to them, the only thing Latias doesn't do is absorb Bug attacks for the Steel/Psychic pokémon.

Latias is pretty good at dual screening or setting up weather for a sun/rain team and it has access to Wish. Awfully similar to Togekiss, actually... but there's nothing wrong with being a slightly better version of an already-good pokémon.

blagh blagh blagh I'm a dirty tramp and attempt to ridicule people to "prove" them wrong

Garchomp relies on its Speed to avoid being revenge-killed after being weakened during setup. I'm pretty sure Wobbuffet doesn't give a shit about what outspeeds it. But I'll play your little game here and rebut with the fact that Wobbuffet essentially guarantees a free setup for Garchomp and all his buddies, like Lucario and Salamence and Manaphy, all the while being very likely to get at least one kill on its own via Counter/MC. And, well, Mew can do anything. *shrug*

But spot-on about Latias, maybe you should try trolling less and posting more of that stuff.

 

[Jumpman16]

I'm not sure that's much different than trying to justify having one broken pokémon under the "it's balanced because everybody can use it!" mantra. (e.g. RBY Mewtwo) If largely the only checks for each suspect are the other suspects, it becomes a sort of Uber-lite group within OU. Instead of being "everybody has to use [this] pokémon to win" it would just be "everybody has to use [these] pokémon to win."

it's a lot different when you remember that we now have a pool of ~485 other pokemon besides the suspects, instead of 150 + Mewtwo. and anyone who will try and seriously argue that mewtwo wasn't uber/broken in rby for competitive pokemon by a 1999 definition or a 2009 one is an idiot, whereas these suspects are all borderline cases by definition (and as you have realized rhetorically aloud here), or are taken off the suspect ladder when they prove they are not, a la dxs.

further, if you forbid any "good" player to use the top five used pokemon from a given "last month", they're going to find it tougher to win than if such an imposition were not placed on what he could use. it'd be the same thing if no one used any of the five suspects here, which would further be a bad idea because among the few things i have said about stage three are that you should gain experience with the suspects (and that using them gives you more exp than just facing them) and that you should play to win.

if none of the suspects are voted uber by the dozens of people most qualified to vote, that's that. the reality is that tauros is no longer top-notch OU in DPPT, nor is Claydol, or Exeggutor, or Milotic. "we" can accept this because our pool of pokemon is 492 now, not something like 151. it will be the same thing if garchomp moves flygon out of OU (again) or manaphy bumps starmie usage down a little. that's competitive pokemon.

finally, dont shit up this thread with trolling and quasi-personal attacks, i have no problem infracting anyone itt for it (this goes for both you and jrrrr so dont give me any "he started it" crap)

 

[ultimifier]

With regard to Gyarados vs. Garchomp, Gyarados can also lay down a DD and proceed to 20% Waterfall flinch him to death much like Garchomp haxes shit with Sand Veil. How 'bout them apples? -_-

The calcs earlier in the thread were done with a 252/252 +natured gyarados, who took a maximum of 74% from a +1 Outrage. Now, in order for gyarados to outspeed garchomp after a DD, he needs to invest in speed. With the required investement in speed to get to 222 before a DD, gyarados can now be OHKOd by a +1 Outrage, making your claim about gyarados completely false, as he can't do shit to garchomp if he is OHKOd.

Also, with SS in effect gyarados only has a 16% chance to flinch garchomp.

Has anyone been seeing the DS memento latios around??

 

[Hocotate]

In terms of Specs Skymin, I still think the ability to switch moves is worth more than 2hkoing Blissey or Zapdos, especially since those invite switches by all the other suspects anyway. Many of those OHKOs depend on the SpD drop coinflip anyway, and spamming Seed Flare is a lot safer when you can use HP Fire to down Scizor or Skarmory, Earth Power for non-scarfed Heatran, Air Slash for Latios, etc. The recoil is balanced out by your increased ability to stay in; often people have to predict switches many times simply to force it out (sometimes they try to stall it through LO recoil which I don't really understand but eh).
Is there any reason to use Timid Skymin? The only relevant pokemon I can think of that it outspeeds is Starmie, which probably isn't staying in anyway. Azelf too, I guess.

 

[Ash Borer]

I have been running a scarf latios with ice beam(stupid it may sound), it counters skymin perfectly and acts as a good revenge killer against garchomp. Also, a mixed defense registeel with ice punch and iron head for STAB does a number on a lot of the suspect, obviously chomp's earthquake kills registeel but latios, skymin, latias and deoxys cant do too much to registeel.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

They, where by they I really mean "defensive Latias," can switch in on plenty of pokémon. It's one of the better Skymin switch-ins and it poops all over Heatran and Zapdos. It can actually tank Ice Beams fairly well when it's not running a 252/252 offensive spread and Fighting resist is pretty big. It also isn't liable to die to Pursuit half the time without doing anything useful, if you're using Reflect. :/ Latias has a good set of resists for something that isn't a Steel-type. It actually complements those quite well since it resists all of Steel's weaknesses, plus Water and Electric which are typically neutral to them, the only thing Latias doesn't do is absorb Bug attacks for the Steel/Psychic pokémon.

Thank you for taking the time to explain what I meant...the more I read that the more I want to use Latias :(

The "problem" with Latias is that it can't directly counter most of the suspects...so in a metagame where all of the suspects are being abused, it is losing ground. Currently in OU where Latias is allowed, it is a defensive behemoth. It counters Infernape (!), Swampert, Zapdos, Heatran, most Starmie, etc etc. It's a great pokemon but it is really overshadowed in stage 3.

Garchomp relies on its Speed to avoid being revenge-killed after being weakened during setup. I'm pretty sure Wobbuffet doesn't give a shit about what outspeeds it. But I'll play your little game here and rebut with the fact that Wobbuffet essentially guarantees a free setup for Garchomp and all his buddies, like Lucario and Salamence and Manaphy, all the while being very likely to get at least one kill on its own via Counter/MC. And, well, Mew can do anything. *shrug*

That wasn't really what I was saying...you said "Garchomp is worse because of Scizor and Latias" and I said "well Mew and Wobbuffet are also worse because of Scizor and Latias, does that make them OU too?" Obviously it doesnt make them OU, so I was wondering why you would have even said that when it also applies to blatantly Uber pokemon.

But spot-on about Latias, maybe you should try trolling less and posting more of that stuff.

Maybe I did come off as trolling...sorry about that. I'm not trying to be a troll, I'm just dismantling your arguments in as blunt a way as possible to get the point across faster. I can't believe you called me a dirty tramp then immediately said I am just ridiculing people, lol. I'll be polite ^__^

 

[Mr.E]

The reason that line of reasoning applies to Garchomp more than blatantly uber pokémon is that Garchomp is a borderline case already. Additional threats against its title as king of OU should knock it down a couple notches, perhaps enough that it goes from "borderline OU/Uber" to "almost surely OU." Of course, plenty of other people just go "still Uber" and shrug it off, which is where most of the long-time Ubers land. Most people don't give their opinion on Garchomp as much thought as it deserves, though.

I was being facetious about the whole Gyarados/Garchomp thing, dudes. -_- Investing 100 EVs for Speed still only gives Garchomp about a 50/50 chance to OHKO after SR, though. And I don't know what you're talking about, Jump, the worst crap all happens in the chat...

 

[SoT]

OU 15 27.78%
Uber 39 72.22%


It kind of seems "Blatantly Uber" to me, I dunno about you. Garchomp really has stopped being such a dominating force. On suspect ladder, the only current OU pokemon to even have a shot of claiming "OU King" is Scizor, which is nowhere what Garchomp was back when he was banned. Latios can somewhat claim Suspect King, as it's been quite the force to reckon with. The only pokemon to really have an effect on Garchomp during stage 3 testing, are other Suspects.

 

[Caelum]

The reason that line of reasoning applies to Garchomp more than blatantly uber pokémon is that Garchomp is a borderline case already. Additional threats against its title as king of OU should knock it down a couple notches, perhaps enough that it goes from "borderline OU/Uber" to "almost surely OU." Of course, plenty of other people just go "still Uber" and shrug it off, which is where most of the long-time Ubers land. Most people don't give their opinion on Garchomp as much thought as it deserves, though.

I commented on this in your Garchomp thread and I'll say it again. You really need to stop implying that because someone disagrees with you, they aren't thinking it over and are making a less educated decision than you. If a Pokemon's tiering status was 100% objective, we'd run some formula and have our tier list. It doesn't work like that and I think everyone would appreciate it if you would stop suggesting that the opinion of many who think Garchomp is uber is somehow less thought out, intelligent, or valid than yours.

I have been running a scarf latios with ice beam(stupid it may sound), it counters skymin perfectly and acts as a good revenge killer against garchomp. Also, a mixed defense registeel with ice punch and iron head for STAB does a number on a lot of the suspect, obviously chomp's earthquake kills registeel but latios, skymin, latias and deoxys cant do too much to registeel.

With Stealth Rock, a Draco Meteor already kills Skymin so I don't see the point of running Choice Scarf Ice Beam on Latias if it's for Skymin since it can (obviously) already revenge kill Garchomp / Salamence with Draco Meteor or Dragon Pulse. Latios can Trick Registeel and Skymin can SubSeed against it. Deoxys hasn't been on the ladder for some time either =/. I don't see how Registeel is that great against the suspects.

It kind of seems "Blatantly Uber" to me, I dunno about you. Garchomp really has stopped being such a dominating force. On suspect ladder, the only current OU pokemon to even have a shot of claiming "OU King" is Scizor, which is nowhere what Garchomp was back when he was banned. Latios can somewhat claim Suspect King, as it's been quite the force to reckon with. The only pokemon to really have an effect on Garchomp during stage 3 testing, are other Suspects.

I'm a bit confused what you are saying actually. As a side note, usage has proven to be a difficult metric for uber-status. It obviously plays a role, but I think it's a relatively small piece.

 

[Mr.E]

All too many people dismiss Garchomp as Uber without giving it a second thought, using simple reasoning similar to, "Look at its insane usage, that's all the proof you need!" They don't think about why its usage might be so high other than being "overpowered" when, upon analysis, there are more likely explanations. That's merely one example, of course, but I don't believe there's any contrary data out there that someone would point to and say, "Garchomp Uber? lol you must be crazy dude." (If there was, it wouldn't be suspect.)

 

[Huntofthelion]

Does anyone want to tell me when the ladder is active, I'm having a really hard time getting a battle =\

 

[tab]

After 8PM GMT is usually OK...however, that concides nicely with when lag makes shoddy almost unplayable.

 

[Darkerkrai]

The question I'm asking is why people base suspects on damage calcs when they don't prove shit. So what if your Garchomp ohkos my Heatran, it's not getting in without getting bruised by Dragon Pulse, or anihalated by Explosion. Damage calcs only worsen the suspects as they are; raising the bias, "Let's ban this Pokemon because it OHKOs so much of the metagame. I could've sworn that a Pokemon that fits the offensive characteristic of an Uber sweeps a majority of the metagame without much effort.

Garchomp isn't getting in without getting a chunk of its HP away. Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Pokemon that murder the landshark- all of those hazards and more keep Garchomp from switching in and pulling off a sweep. Offensively however, Garchomp is a monster. After a Swords Dance Garchomp rapes everything that can't OHKO it, cannot take numerous hits from its array of attacks, doesn't outspeed and OHKO it, doesn't have up a Reflect, can't Phaze it, doesn't force it to trap itself with Outrage or can't cripple it. Before anyone makes an attempt to compare Garchomp to another Uber Dragon, I'd just like to make it clear that those Dragons are just versitle while Garchomp isn't.

Ehhhhh, I'm probabally not finished with Garchomp, but there are other suspects. I'm just gonna switch my arguments over to Manaphy and Latios, both of which don't really bother me much. Oh and I forgot to mention how awesome Sleep Powder/Sludge Bomb/Substitute/Leech Seed Venusaur is in the suspect when paired with Heatran. Nice typing, gets rid of Toxic Spikes, great defensive stats, decent Speed, Sleep Powder, it's been working pretty nice for me.

 

[Hocotate]

The question I'm asking is why people base suspects on damage calcs when they don't prove shit. So what if your Garchomp ohkos my Heatran, it's not getting in without getting bruised by Dragon Pulse, or anihalated by Explosion. Damage calcs only worsen the suspects as they are; raising the bias, "Let's ban this Pokemon because it OHKOs so much of the metagame. I could've sworn that a Pokemon that fits the offensive characteristic of an Uber sweeps a majority of the metagame without much effort.

Garchomp isn't getting in without getting a chunk of its HP away. Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Pokemon that murder the landshark- all of those hazards and more keep Garchomp from switching in and pulling off a sweep. Offensively however, Garchomp is a monster. After a Swords Dance Garchomp rapes everything that can't OHKO it, cannot take numerous hits from its array of attacks, doesn't outspeed and OHKO it, doesn't have up a Reflect, can't Phaze it, doesn't force it to trap itself with Outrage or can't cripple it. Before anyone makes an attempt to compare Garchomp to another Uber Dragon, I'd just like to make it clear that those Dragons are just versitle while Garchomp isn't.

So you're saying that you're spamming Dragon Pulse every time with Heatran? Cool, Rayquaza won't be any problem then.
The reason we use damage calcs is because they're not biased. How are you going to prove that something sweeps through the metagame without much effort? By showing what it can and cannot KO. Choice Scarf Heatran revenge killing with Explosion doesn't mean anything; it could do that to a great number of Ubers. Conversely, using damage calcs we see that Heatran does 63.13% - 74.30%; not a KO after Stealth Rock, or even Spikes. That's what we use calculations for: to see what the suspects can do. Of course the numbers don't matter, but information like 'can 2hko x bulky water' does. Without stats like those, how will you 'prove' anything?
And yeah, the Ground-immune Suspects are an obstacle for Garchomp, but we already knew that. They're on shaky ground themselves, and I don't see how they're any more versatile than Garchomp is (maybe Skymin with SubSeed sets is, I don't know). You seem to be saying that there are many pokemon which can phaze it out or 'cripple' it that can take hits from Garchomp, and there aren't, really. You need to either outpredict it or sacrifice something. While that doesn't make it automatically Uber, you're exaggerating how easy it is to deal with it.

 

[Darkerkrai]

So you're saying that you're spamming Dragon Pulse every time with Heatran? Cool, Rayquaza won't be any problem then.

No, I was implying that Garchomp isn't going to be getting in on Heatran easily, or any Pokemon for that matter to pull off a sweep.

Rayquaza falls in the same boat as Salamence, but, well, more deadly. Being a versitle beast is why Rayquaza shouldn't be in OU- it's going to ruin its switch ins if it's running a different set than what's been predicted. Sure, Stealth Rock hampers it a bit, but the same can be said for Ho-oh and Lugia.

The reason we use damage calcs is because they're not biased.

This is just me being a dick and all:

Damage calcs only worsen the suspects as they are; raising the bias, "Let's ban this Pokemon because it OHKOs so much of the metagame."

Where do I call damage calcs biased?

How are you going to prove that something sweeps through the metagame without much effort? By showing what it can and cannot KO. Choice Scarf Heatran revenge killing with Explosion doesn't mean anything; it could do that to a great number of Ubers.

Um... I could've sworn needing support from more than one factor to pull off a sweep counts as effort. If that's not the case, then let's ban everything that can OHKO a large portion of the metagame after Stealth Rock damage.

Let's ban Zangoose from NU and vote it into BL because he can OHKO most of UU and NU after a Swords Dance with a bit of help from other Pokemon, then.

Without stats like those, how will you 'prove' anything?

well, you could always see how the said Pokemon do in the metagame; does it change the metagame or does the metagame even consider it something to fear. I mean, you can 'prove' things on paper, but why are we having a suspect test?

You seem to be saying that there are many pokemon which can phaze it out or 'cripple' it that can take hits from Garchomp, and there aren't, really.

You caught me, the number of Pokemon that can cripple, Phaze, revenge kill, or just murder Garchomp is limited to around 23 Pokemon in OU. Keep in mind that crippling a Pokemon isn't limted to status.

You need to either outpredict it or sacrifice something.

That's the same reason why everyone wanted Garchomp banned in the first place. I don't know why you bring this up when Garchomp is mentioned, the metagame's been going by that exact principle since D/P. Nothing has a "true" counter anymore, so I don't see why Garchomp should be banned because you need to sacrifice something to kill it.

If your team lacks a Heatran or, a Gliscor running a 308 Speed, Lucario is going to kill something before it gets KO'd. If your team lacks a Skarmory, Bronzong or Hippowdon, Garchomp's going to take something down before it dies.

 

[Blln]

So I know the real formula is not going to be disclosed, but I was just wondering - I played on suspect a lot for the first two weeks after it came out, I got to a pretty high rating, and I did manage to use all of the suspects. The only problem is, I had to go away to a summer program where I have very limited access to the internet, and I'm going to be here for the rest of the duration of the suspect test. I guess what I'm asking is, is the requirement hard to meet? Do I stand a chance of making it, or does it more require about 8 weeks, or whatever the duration is, of pretty consistent playing (and I realize my case is specific, so I'm more just asking in general)?

 

[haunter]

If your team lacks a Heatran or, a Gliscor running a 308 Speed, Lucario is going to kill something before it gets KO'd. If your team lacks a Skarmory, Bronzong or Hippowdon, Garchomp's going to take something down before it dies.

Lucario and Garchomp are not comparable, one of the arguments to ban Chomp was its impressive physical sturdiness combined with the awesome typing; Lucario is a deadly sweeper but has paper defences and only average speed, nonetheless its only useful stab is fighting, which can be easily countered via flying types - especially when paired with intimidate - and ghosts. Garchomp has stab on dragon and ground which means that nothing but Skarmory and Bronzong can switch into it, and even these pokemons risk to lose a huge chunk of their HP when Chomp has swords dance (or CB) and fire fang, not to mention that both of them can't really hurt it other than roaring out (Skarmory) or 3hko with gyro ball (Zong).

The only purpose of the test - for Garchomp - is to see if Platinum's new moves (basically Scizor's bullet punch and ice punch as a move tutor for some pokemons) and Latias (and possibly Latios and Shaymin) can make it less broken than it was when it was banned. In my opinion, after playing consistently for over a month now, neither Latias nor Platinum's addictions has made Chomp more viable in OU than it was before:

1) Latias can only revenge kill Chomp, because a mispredicted switch in may mean a ohko from either dragon claw or outrage, not to mention that with sandstorm in play, dragon pulse - a 100% accurate move - only has an 80% chance of hitting it. The same can be said for Latios and Skymin, though they'll hardly become OU.

2) Scizor, probably the best revenge killer in the game, is not even guaranteed to KO Garchomp even with a +2 life orb'd bullet punch, and that, again, considering that bullet punch has only an 80% chance of hitting during sandstorm.

Just throwing my two cents here.

Have a nice day.

 

[Jumpman16]

So I know the real formula is not going to be disclosed, but I was just wondering - I played on suspect a lot for the first two weeks after it came out, I got to a pretty high rating, and I did manage to use all of the suspects. The only problem is, I had to go away to a summer program where I have very limited access to the internet, and I'm going to be here for the rest of the duration of the suspect test. I guess what I'm asking is, is the requirement hard to meet? Do I stand a chance of making it, or does it more require about 8 weeks, or whatever the duration is, of pretty consistent playing (and I realize my case is specific, so I'm more just asking in general)?

it's relative to however much everyone else will have played at the end of eight weeks. even if you got to 1900 in the first two weeks it doesn't matter if everyone else slowly but surely overtook you as far as SEXP is concerned, which hinges much, much more on experience than whether someone was able to go 24-1 or something over a couple days

 

[pkmn1000]

It seems that all the sand veil hax can easily be removed with machamp. simply max speed jolly and a scarf and it can ohko garchomp with ice punch and even if sandsotrm and +6 evasion is in play it wont mater.