Metagame np: Stage 4 - Celebration (Feraligatr Banned)

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CanadianWifier

Run Away With Me
Alright, so the obvious next step for a Swords Dance Water-type comes straight outta BW2 :)



Samurott @ Lum Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Razor Shell
- Swords Dance
- Megahorn
- Aqua Jet


EV's allow you to outspeed 252 Speed base 55s such as Golurk, Cacturne, Exeggutor; though you could invest max if you want to tie with Modest natured Ludicolo. Samurott is also really bulky - maybe not as much as Feraligatr's 85 / 100 / 83 defenses, but Samurott's 95 / 85 / 70 defenses are nothing to be sneezed at - it can still set up a ton a ton of shit, and get brought down comfortably into Torrent with a strong STAB attack. Lum is to prevent Status from ruining your life, pretty simple stuff. Megahorn is also great coverage, as it nails all the bulky Grass- and Psychic-types that inhabit NU, as well as bopping Malamar.

Before Feraligatr got Sheer Force, it was arguably the better SD Water-type, as hollywood can attest to; so if you miss the fact that you can't run old-style SD gatr, well, fret no more. With the ability to still go special and fucking annihilate things with Life Orb Hydro Pump, coupled with the new blown open niche for an SD Water-type, this otter is once again gonna be king of NU's seas :)
 
I know everyone keeps talking about how Typhlosion deserves a suspect test, and I don't disagree; however, I feel that both Mega Audino, and to a lesser extent, Mega Camerupt deserve to be included in the discussion. Both of these Pokemon are incredibly difficult to prepare for and can easily sweep even properly prepared teams. With the recent rise of Steelix, Camerupt is a solid option for a team's mega slot and Audino is even more viable as a setup sweeper and bulky attacker. Thoughts?
 

Ares

Fool me...can't get fooled again
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I agree with Mega Camerupt being added just for the sheer power that it exerts.

I don't think Mega-Audino should be suspected alongside the other two. It is no where near as good as Typhlosion or Mega rupt imo. Loses CM wars to any Psychic type and the wish pass loses regen. Putting it alongside the other two would make people say, "oh, this is no where near as bad it shouldn't leave and the other two should." I wouldn't be opposed to a suspect in the future but not alongside the other suspects.
 
As an avid Camerupt mega user, I can honestly say I agree Camerupt is deserving of a suspect. Whether it is "broken" is up for interpretation, but I'm sure we can all agree it is quite the hard hitter. Not many things can switch into it, and backed by the power it does have, those switch ins most times can't switch in again further on in the match, giving Camerupt the room to absolutely destroy teams, slowly, and very surely.
Mega Audino I can't speak too much on since I neither have no problem with it, nor have I used it (not to say it isn't suspect worthy).

As far as Typhlosion goes, yea, that thing needs to be suspected, and we all know it.
 
I know everyone keeps talking about how Typhlosion deserves a suspect test, and I don't disagree; however, I feel that both Mega Audino, and to a lesser extent, Mega Camerupt deserve to be included in the discussion. Both of these Pokemon are incredibly difficult to prepare for and can easily sweep even properly prepared teams. With the recent rise of Steelix, Camerupt is a solid option for a team's mega slot and Audino is even more viable as a setup sweeper and bulky attacker. Thoughts?
Mega Audino doesn't strike me as potentially broken. Its not too big of a threat offensively and while it's a great wall, it's very passive in that role and isn't so bulky that it can't be broken through. Its Normal typing kinda hurts it too since it removes what would be a very helpful Fighting resist. I just don't see Mega Audino as being above and beyond other bulky NU pokes that perform similar roles.

I can definitely see where you're coming from on Mega Camerupt. I found it more suspect worthy than Typhlosion before Flash Fire. Its insane power and respectable bulk make it quite threatening and centralizing. In theory, it got more viable with the banning of Gatr but it also misses Heliolisk's ability to deal with the bulky Waters that check it and provide many safe switches via Volt Switch. That being said, it's still an ultra powerful threat that's on the cusp of "broken" so I'm certainly not opposed to a suspect.
 

Disjunction

Everything I waste gets recycled
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I know everyone keeps talking about how Typhlosion deserves a suspect test, and I don't disagree; however, I feel that both Mega Audino, and to a lesser extent, Mega Camerupt deserve to be included in the discussion. Both of these Pokemon are incredibly difficult to prepare for and can easily sweep even properly prepared teams. With the recent rise of Steelix, Camerupt is a solid option for a team's mega slot and Audino is even more viable as a setup sweeper and bulky attacker. Thoughts?
I agree a Mega Camerupt suspect would be a very realistic option. There is no clear cut solid answer to this Pokemon. Outside of Mantine and Air Balloon Lanturn, there aren't any Pokemon that can switch into its incredibly powerful Fire/Ground/Rock coverage without taking 80% or more. It has a great defensive typing along with solid bulk. Its only crippling weaknesses are its quad-weakness to Water and its absurdly low speed. Definitely a more gray-zone mon and worthy of a suspect.

M-dino I would rather choose to not place for a suspect right now. It's definitely good and is a metagame-defining threat, but I feel as if it's fairly easy to adapt to. Crodino is piss-weak and relies on boosting too much to do its job. Its cleric set is definitely bulky, but it's often set up fodder. The offensive lure is arguably the most effective right because it beats the defensive mons that typically shut down or set up on regular audino such as Ferroseed and Weezing. However, it is easily worn down and still struggles with damage output on neutral targets at +1 (which is all you can usually afford to get to.) I'd say it's an under-appreciated Pokemon right now, but not suspect-worthy.
 
I'm of the opinion that that nothing in NU is broken and that maybe we need a typhlosion test (in which id vote no ban). Idk about MAudino yet so im just gonna talk about Rupt.

If you remember, we did quicktest Mega Camerupt in the early stages of ORAS and I believe that the reasons it wasnt banned still apply. Its terrible speed and lack of reliable recovery or lefties make it incredibly easy to wear down. It doesnt match up well against offense at all everything outspeeds and can get off a ton of damage. It also cant switch in on anything before it megas due to its middling 70/70/75 bulk. It doesnt really match up that well against Balance either as most balance teams will be running a Hariyama/Mantine/Bulkeops to deal with Fire Types anyways.
 
I wouldn't mind seeing Mega Camerupt re-suspected, but I agree with others that it's not quite broken. The main problem with Mega Camerupt is that it can manhandle balanced. Earth Power does a cool 40% to Hariyama, and plenty of people are running Will-O-Wisp Mega Camerupt for it anyways. Bulky Archeops is 2HKO'd by Fire Blast, so it's hardly an answer, and Mantine gets dropped by HP Electric and Rock Slide, both of which Mega Camerupt has plenty of room to run because all it really needs is dual STAB. But against some teams, it just does nothing, which is why it's sketchier than stuff we've suspected in the past.
 

Disjunction

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I'm of the opinion that that nothing in NU is broken and that maybe we need a typhlosion test (in which id vote no ban). Idk about MAudino yet so im just gonna talk about Rupt.

If you remember, we did quicktest Mega Camerupt in the early stages of ORAS and I believe that the reasons it wasnt banned still apply. Its terrible speed and lack of reliable recovery or lefties make it incredibly easy to wear down. It doesnt match up well against offense at all everything outspeeds and can get off a ton of damage. It also cant switch in on anything before it megas due to its middling 70/70/75 bulk. It doesnt really match up that well against Balance either as most balance teams will be running a Hariyama/Mantine/Bulkeops to deal with Fire Types anyways.
Yes, for those reasons it didn't qualify for a quick ban not a suspect. The point stands that Mega Camerupt performs fantastically vs balance and has a nice match up versus stall. In the post-Mega Steelix/Heliolisk/Virizion/Qwilfish meta, I would say Mega Camerupt got a huge buff for a number of reasons.

1) It not longer has to compete with Mega Steelix for a Mega slot. Competition for a Mega slot in NU is not very tight, I understand, but running Mega Steelix over Mega Camerupt as a bulky, extremely powerful Stealth Rocker or tank was almost always the option to take. Mega Camerupt does this job only slightly less effective.
2) Offense has taken a huge hit. While losing Heliolisk, Virizion, and even Qwilfish/Mlix, the metagame has slowed down substantially. Balance has taken a huge rise in popularity as some of the Pokemon that threatened it the most have left the tier. Mega Camerupt performs its best in a Balance-oriented meta, imo.
EDIT: Also forgot to mention Offense lost one of its best Water types in Gatr, which is big for Camel
3) With Mega Steelix leaving, one of Mega Camerupt's best checks, Mantine, has been declining in usage. Depending on if Mega Camerupt rises to even higher levels of popularity, we may see more of it, but the number of Pokemon that can switch into camel are pretty low.

The reason it wasn't quick banned was because it wasn't so over-centralizing where a quick ban could be justified. I'd say it's powerful enough to justify being suspected and, if the community as a whole decides on it being too good, then it's the community's decision. I'm on the fence about the topic and I'm definitely biased toward not banning it because it's one of my favorite Pokemon in the tier, but I'm trying to be objective about the topic.
 
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Just to add my opinions on this entire debate: I would 100% be completely behind a joint mega camel/ typhlosion suspect test. Mega Audino is interesting because that p.o.s is hella bulky, eating up really high powered attacks with relative ease, it makes it a doddle to set up. But the main reason why I don't see it suspect worthy is because we actually have so many checks for it, any cm psychic with psyshock, any steel type(only relevant one is mawile now but w/e) and poison types. All 3 of which absolutely wipe mega audino to the ground and don't necessarily take much to slap one on a team. For sure Mega Audy is hella good whenever the opponent doesn't have a check or counter to it, but so is everything :/ its a great Mon, but that's it, just a great Mon. Not suspect worthy rn imho.

Onto the two mons in hand, and I'll start with Mega Camerupt. This thing is literally ridiculously powerful, its damage output is insane but so is stuff like rampardos/marowak as well as those 2 being faster. What it has however is coverage to hit the entire metagame and ability to choose its checks and counters. It can run HP grass if it wants to bop the seis switch in, it can run rock slide/ancient power for the mantine switch in, it can run will-o-wisp to cripple the fuck outta the hariyama switch in, as well as its dual stabs, which complement each other perfectly. This Mon (depending on the set) has 0 safe switch ins (vibrava isn't relevant enough). What did we do with the last Mon which had 0 safe switch ins? We sent it to BL3. That Mon was Pangoro, which similarly, had 0 safe switch ins to all of its sets, had the same speed problem, and didn't provide much utility outside of having its offensive presence. Mega Camel (although its problems are kinda exasperated compared to pandas) carries the similar trait of choosing what checks/counters it. Sure its easy to check, but that's only after you have sacked something to get that check in safely. Its a worthy suspect Mon, maybe even more so than typh.

On the topic of typhlosion, I would back a suspect test for this as well. What typh had originally was the ability to hit really hard no matter what range of HP it was at, if it was high you would eruption and if it was low you could blaze fire blast. Its main counters were easily worn down (I'm looking at yama and to an extent mantine) and the fact that if the team you were playing against didn't have a switch in, it claimed a life by 2hkoing the rest of the metagame. As a result, it centralised the meta, forcing each individual to run a pure switch in or be at a immediate disadvantage when playing one. With the advent of its hidden ability, typhlosion has become a whole different monster. Suddenly when you decide to click a fire move vs opposing typhlosion its essentially a 50/50 to decide whether or not they have flash fire. What does this mean? It means that typhlosion itself has swapped some damage output for some great utility, allowing more defensive teams to use more offensive presence in typhlosion itself to counter itself. If it was scary/suspect worthy before, its definitely been improved right now as it can provide more than just its devastating power, by subbing half of it you give it a new utility. A suspect would be interesting to say the least, due to how centralising it is in the current meta, but does it deserve to get banned on being "broken". That's for a suspect to decide :]
 
Well...

Typhlosion:
Typhlosion isn't broken if we take the classic definition. That does not mean there is no problem with Typh, because there is; with many of its checks being put to RU, Flash Fire is everywhere in the tier (either on someone's own Typhlosion or on a SDef Flareon).
Sure, it has plenty of checks, like AV Hariyama, MegaRupt and Water-types, but most Water-types are part Ground and as such smashed by HP Grass, and Extrasensory otherwise. The biggest reason Typhlosion isn't that dangerous is because it is often Choice-locked in a move, which means something might take advantage of it. Still, it is a metagame defining threat and it gets kills way too easily regardless of its set thanks to the high Base Power of Eruption.
I think I would vote to ban it. Not because it is broken but because I think the metagame is less fun with this thing existing.

MegaRupt is in a similar vein. It wrecks most Balance teams (depeending on if they run Yama, Flareon or Mantine as their Fire check, the former two being uncapable of switching into Earth Power and the latter being easily lured), but it is horribly slow and has no recovery. The departure of Gatr and Mega-Lix worked well in its favor but being weak to the common Earthquake as well as things like Samurott and Poliwrath, which are incredibly common, is not. I never used it, but I almost always lose something to it, being an avid user of balance teams. Still, it is incredibly powerful, offense lost its main check (Gatr) and similar to Typh, I think its presence is harmful to the metagame.

Then there's Mega-Audino...
This thing is stupidly bulky, which is a huge problem. Sure, it relies on setup to deal damage, but what actually 2HKO's it now Mega-Lix is gone, out of extremely powerful STAB moves. If it comes to OHKO'ing it, I think only a few Gunk Shots within the tier can. I have more problems with this thing than either of the other threats, and I believe this is the sole reason every team needs a Taunt user or risks getting swept by it, especially Balance teams. Worse, things that the setup move can't get past are destroyed by the lure set, and if not Mega Audino then it just pivots out or T-Waves your counter/check, potentially crippling it. CM Xatu is probably the sole exception, but pairing this Mega Audino with something like Ditto (since all counters carry a set-up move) or a Pursuit-trapper makes it even more nasty. It doesn't really help that Mega-Audino has access to Fire Blast to roast the Steels that counter its mono-attacking set, either.
I really hate facing this thing, more than either Megarupt or Typh. It would be much easier to prepare for without Typh and Rupt in the tier, but it would still have a presence similar to Musharna in late Gen V. Sure, it can be dealt with, but...

TLDR; Though neither of them are broken, I would not mind if they are all banned because they make the meta less fun to play.
 

blinkie

¯\_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯ dank meme crew
Not really sure about Typhlosion, atm, IDK if it could be considered broken, as although it gains Flash Fire, it is still situational, and also Blaze boosted Fire Blast will no longer be a thing, so it will be less of a threat at lower HP. However, if it does gain a Flash Fire boost, it can potentially be very scary. Also keep in mind it lost a very good partner in Heliolisk, and is choiced almost all the time, so it can be scouted with stuff like Protect. But even if you bring in the right mon, Eruption still hurts, so when I played against it last suspect test I just made sure to try and keep rocks up.

On to the topic of Mega Camerupt, I find Pangoro a lot more broken than Mega Camerupt, as although its speed tier wasn't great, it could still outspeed some stuff with investment, while it also had SD so it could easily 6-0 stall. On the other hand, Mega Camerupt is has literally the lowest base speed in NU, and although both have a 4x weakness, Pangoro could outspeed fairies like Togetic and nuke them with Gunk Shot, basically every Water-type will outspeed Camerupt and easily take it out, although admittedly an Earth Power to the face will hurt them badly. That being said, Mega Camerupt is still a very good mon, and the loss of Mega Steelix took out its biggest competition, along with Water-types such as Gatr and Qwilfish. Its few decent answers such as Mantine and Seismitoad can be taken out with lures such as Grass Knot / HP Electric on random mons. Outside of its 4x water weakness, it also has some decent bulk, letting it live some strong hits. Although it is easy to force out with offense, in a balance-oriented meta, as others have said, Mega Camerupt can take a toll on many teams. With good prediction, you can handle Mega Camerupt, but each time Mega Camerupt comes in you will have to predict, and eventually something dies. Sometimes, even resisted moves will hurt weakened targets, so many times people will have to go for risky double switches to prevent it from coming in on something that can't threaten it. It might not be broken, but it is certainly suspect worthy IMO.
 

Ares

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Just to be clear; we aren't assessing a Pokemon's brokenness, we are assessing if something is good enough to be put on the suspect slate with Typhlosion. Suspect =\= Ban (so please don't have that mentality)

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Zeb and ras had mentioned previously that NU might have more suspect tests (they should correct me if this is not the case), instead of just holding one when something was clearly broken. This means that multiple threats in the tier could be suspected to assess if they are to good for the tier. The suspect test would be the time to see if its to good for NU, not be forehand.
 
I agree - that being said, I think Mega-Audino, Mega-Rupt and Typhlosion would make for a good first set of suspects ^ .
 
Typh I wouldn't say needs a suspect test. Flash Fire is easy to work around in that if you see your opponent has a Typh don't go firing off (no pun intended) attacks. While now you have to essentially play with the idea that every Typh is FF that's okay it's just how you used to always play assuming it was scarfed. FF is as much a buff as it is a nerf because Blaze FireBlast was amazing in lategame if your opponent had no priority.

Megarupt I am on the fence about because it is a purely offensive mon at this point. Aye you could have rocks, be rest/talk, but no recovery and poop speed.....plus unless it runs HPGrass it can't really do anything to Seis or Quag and it does have a good amount of checks. You could test it but I don't think anything will change really.

MegaAud I feel is much the same now as it was pre-Megalix spam. Either support or Crodino which can be handled easily with hazards and counter typing. Steel types like Mawile and Klang are perfect for countering either Audino as long as it doesn't have Flamethrower (hey it's happened). Garbador, Plume, and Muk pretty much just laugh in its face so yeah
 

boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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Typh I wouldn't say needs a suspect test. Flash Fire is easy to work around in that if you see your opponent has a Typh don't go firing off (no pun intended) attacks. While now you have to essentially play with the idea that every Typh is FF that's okay it's just how you used to always play assuming it was scarfed. FF is as much a buff as it is a nerf because Blaze FireBlast was amazing in lategame if your opponent had no priority.

Megarupt I am on the fence about because it is a purely offensive mon at this point. Aye you could have rocks, be rest/talk, but no recovery and poop speed.....plus unless it runs HPGrass it can't really do anything to Seis or Quag and it does have a good amount of checks. You could test it but I don't think anything will change really.

MegaAud I feel is much the same now as it was pre-Megalix spam. Either support or Crodino which can be handled easily with hazards and counter typing. Steel types like Mawile and Klang are perfect for countering either Audino as long as it doesn't have Flamethrower (hey it's happened). Garbador, Plume, and Muk pretty much just laugh in its face so yeah
I'm in support of a camel suspect for the reasons stated already but there are quite a few things wrong with your points. You should not be playing with the assumption that typhlosion is flash fire because blaze is still a significantly better ability, and blaze boosted fire blasts are what make typhlosion so good apart from eruption. Typhlosion is still a major threat but it has more than enough checks that are easy to fit on teams while camel has quite a few less due to its outstanding stab combo. Saying that mega camerupt "can't do anything to seismitoad and quagsire unless it runs hp grass" is a stretch. Quagsire is nearly OHKOed by Earth Power and even SpDef Seismitoad takes 50% from earth power, so it only switches in once (non spdef toad takes about 70%).
Steel types don't really handle mega Audino that well considering fire blast is a common and legitimate coverage move used on it. Poison types are solid checks, but some really struggle to break through it after a boost or two.
 

scorpdestroyer

it's a skorupi egg
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I don't get why so many people are saying FF is an inferior ability. FF may be more useful than Blaze in my opinion since Typhlosion still hits quite hard even without Blaze and it provides a nice Fire check which means you don't have to add an extra Hariyama or something just to deter opponents from mindlessly spamming fire moves. You definitely should be playing with the assumption that Typh is a flash fire variant, too, because I'm sure you'd think twice before clicking Eruption if your opponent has a Typh of their own. I get that Blaze has its advantages but it's definitely not outright better than FF.

Definitely agree with a MegaRupt suspect to add to the possible Typhlosion one. MegaRupt is almost impossible to switch into with its ridiculous power and good bulk, but on the other hand it also gets worn down fairly easily from what I've experienced playing with it. I'm neutral atm but I support a suspect.
 

Orphic

perhaps
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Just to be clear; we aren't assessing a Pokemon's brokenness, we are assessing if something is good enough to be put on the suspect slate with Typhlosion. Suspect =\= Ban (so please don't have that mentality)

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Zeb and ras had mentioned previously that NU might have more suspect tests (they should correct me if this is not the case), instead of just holding one when something was clearly broken. This means that multiple threats in the tier could be suspected to assess if they are to good for the tier. The suspect test would be the time to see if its to good for NU, not be forehand.
I must say I'm definitely one who's excited for a more stable meta. I'm certainly looking forward as well to a suspect test where the mons being suspected are not definitely broken, and people aren't going into it with that mentality from the start as you say. Both typh and megarupt are debatable as to whether they're broken so it'll be an interesting one
 
First Accelgor got moved up to RU

Then Heliolisk got put into BL3

And now Feraligatr is banned....

These changes seem hell-bent on destroying my team D:
 
I don't really think that mega-audino warrants a suspect, I think we're just suspecting for the hell of it at this point :L I would however agree with a smashpass suspect, it's still stupid.
I'd also nominate malamar for a suspect test. If any of you have used this mon, it's broken and stupidly good, requiring a lot of team prep and when quad super effective moves can barely do 50% and the checks that people use for this mon are still being beaten 99% of the time.
Scenarios for each:
Superpower on switch, 2 hit ko with knock, very high chances to kill if rocks are up.
0 SpA Musharna Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 200-236 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 4 Atk Malamar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 236-278 (54.5 - 64.2%)
+1 4 Atk Malamar Knock Off vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 158-188 (36.4 - 43.4%)

Setup fodder right here.
0 SpA Mega Audino Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 126-150 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Togetic Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 126-150 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not to mention mawile + granbull gives a +1 attack if it switches in (the defensive sets that is)

Scyther has to avoid rocks + the prediction of knock off (unless bulky evio which i haven't seen in a long time)
4 Atk Malamar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scyther: 118-139 (41.9 - 49.4%)
252 Atk Scyther U-turn vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 232-276 (61.7 - 73.4%)

These are all checks and "counters" that are ran for malamar and they are still being beaten a lot of the time... it's very easy to aquire boosts so the fact that they have to be careful when switching in this pokemon, it's ridiculous. And this pokemon is usually alright, but a fucking pain to revenge kill since if you weaken it enough, you got to make sure it can't rest. If rest isn't an option and its still weakened, there's always healing wish for it to have sweeping potential throughout the entire match. Can't exactly say it isn't centralizing since every team runs signal beam now in order to cope and if you don't you get 6-0'd. There are even occasions where teams have 2-3 checks and counters with mons running signal beam and dazzling gleam and it can still cope.
This pokemon is probably the most centralizing and ban-worthy pokemon we have right now in my current opinion, it's just not been said yet.
 
How many pokémons are we gonna suspect at the same time? Is it going to be some sort of Typhlosion + Mega Camerupt on the same suspect, Typh + Camel + Audino, or are we gonna suspect each one individually
 
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