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np: UU - Can't Touch This
- Thread starter reachzero
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Cresselia might be a pest to battle when you're facing stall - since 252/252 Bold versions counter an incredible amount of the metagame, including various threats to stall such as Blaziken, Moltres, Azumaril and others. Though, since the metagame has learned to handle stall somewhat at this point, stall is becoming more and more seldom seen, and offense is on a big rise. That would explain the huge rise in CM Sub Cresselia usage, since people are finally seeing Cress in a different way - with a more offensive attitude, literally. I've also seen some new discoveries in the metagame as well - I've seen Spiking Qwilfish in action and I've got to say that it preforms pretty damn well. I really don't see Cress as a threat to the metagame defensively, since the metagame adapted to it, if you like it or not.
First off, I find it hilarious that you call Absol a counter to anything, even Cresselia. Absol is frail as fuck, don't call it a counter to anything, I don't care how weak the opposing Pokemon is. Absol is a check to Cresselia, nothing more.
I haven't played UU in about 2 weeks due to my recent IRL stuff, so I can't really comment on how accurately the metagame shifted, but judging from the more recent UU RMT's, Porygon-Z seems to be causing more uproar in the tier than Cresselia. As I said from the beginning of the test, most players are just super frantic for no fucking reason because either 1. they can't fathom what to do when something new comes down, or 2. they just don't wanna deal with change, both of which are problems. The most difficult set to take down is IMO the Resttalk CM set, and depending on the attack it has, a number of things can outstall even a +6 Cresselia. Anyone remember Milotic? Yeah that thing is still good with Haze. Last I checked, Spiritomb is kinda used a lot? Yeah, another check.
Oh, and don't get me started on this offensive Cresselia hype-bullshit. That thing is even easier to take down. Oh hey, U-Turn is just as solid a move in UU as OU, and I'm sure some users of it break Cresselia's subs. Since most of you like offensive teams so much, just bring in your Absol / Houndoom / hell Raikou even. Offensively Cresselia is a joke; if you let it get a few CM's in, it's your fault for losing the game.
Porygon-Z is the real culprit of the metagame. If anything, the fast-track system should remove it first over Cresselia IMO, but then again my opinion doesn't really matter anyway because I can't connect to shoddy so I doubt I made voting requirements ;)
I haven't played UU in about 2 weeks due to my recent IRL stuff, so I can't really comment on how accurately the metagame shifted, but judging from the more recent UU RMT's, Porygon-Z seems to be causing more uproar in the tier than Cresselia. As I said from the beginning of the test, most players are just super frantic for no fucking reason because either 1. they can't fathom what to do when something new comes down, or 2. they just don't wanna deal with change, both of which are problems. The most difficult set to take down is IMO the Resttalk CM set, and depending on the attack it has, a number of things can outstall even a +6 Cresselia. Anyone remember Milotic? Yeah that thing is still good with Haze. Last I checked, Spiritomb is kinda used a lot? Yeah, another check.
Oh, and don't get me started on this offensive Cresselia hype-bullshit. That thing is even easier to take down. Oh hey, U-Turn is just as solid a move in UU as OU, and I'm sure some users of it break Cresselia's subs. Since most of you like offensive teams so much, just bring in your Absol / Houndoom / hell Raikou even. Offensively Cresselia is a joke; if you let it get a few CM's in, it's your fault for losing the game.
Porygon-Z is the real culprit of the metagame. If anything, the fast-track system should remove it first over Cresselia IMO, but then again my opinion doesn't really matter anyway because I can't connect to shoddy so I doubt I made voting requirements ;)
Looking at the arguments in Policy Review against banning Cressalia is rather frustrating. ~"Just because a particular play-style does't function as well as the rest doesn't mean it should be banned." Then why was Gallade given the boot? Offensive teams had no problem with him...
When stall suffers something has to go... when offensive is seemingly lacking, all is fine with the world.
When stall suffers something has to go... when offensive is seemingly lacking, all is fine with the world.
Wasn't Yanmega banned since it destroyed offense?
If the definition for counter is:
Pokemon A is a counter to Pokemon B if Pokemon A can switch into Pokemon B and immediately threaten it to the point that it needs to switch out or faint.
Then Absol is a counter to Cresselia without 176 Speed by definition. Overall, I would say Absol is just a check, but if we are talking about this slow ass defensive Cresselia that can't beat Absol unless it predicts Absol's entry and uses Signal Beam, then I would definitely stand by my statement that Absol is a counter for Cresselia. Not the most reliable one, due to being stupidly frail, however it still gets the job done. At worst it KOes itself and Cresselia.
Unless I am mistaken on the definition of a "counter".
I think the most interesting part of the PW debate is that unless something absolutely groundbreaking occurs, most of the people arguing in that topic will not have UU voting eligibility(and to the best of my knowledge have never voted on UU suspect test) and Cresselia will simply be voted BL by the people who will, since(with the exception of Heysup I guess) everyone posting in this topic who tends to be active in this process is still just as against Cress as before. PW is a great medium for OU when the best players tend to be badgeholders+, but I'm concerned it's just going to waste time by waiting longer for what seems to be an inevitable conclusion here.
Point taken, but that still refers back to my first statement.
@Counter vs Check
A Counter should be able to beat most if not all standard sets, be able to switch in repeatedly to said threat with limited fear, and constantly be able to prevent setup, threaten a KO, or consistently be able to force out.
Chansey counters a majority of special attackers. Chansey can counter most Milotic.
A Check should be able to switch-in and threaten to KO or Force out. However, Checks are often limited by typing and stats as well as often take above 'average' damage that a counter would.
Toxicroak can check most Milotic however, Defensive Milotic with Ice Beam can 2-3HKO Toxicroak and LO Varients would do the same.
exactly how many U-turners can actually constantly repeat U-turning with SR on the field while cress has no problem switching out and coming back in and still set up...the only U-turrners you have are mespirit,uxie,moltres,scyther,aimbipom, swellow (there are more NU)...the very few that can repeately switch in arent strong enough while the ones that are strong enough get dealt with by SR...sure they break sub and then what? you switch in your "counter" who will be dealt with heavy damage...and the only counter you listed there was raikou who does beat cress one on one, but houndoom/absol is what heysup and flareblitz have been discussing about...and as i stated earlier dugtrio is mostly paired with sub set cress cause it can easily take out the majority of cresselia's counters...
Do you understand what U-Turn does, or am I missing something? You get a free switch to something that can deal with Cresselia. Last I checked, Cresselia is used to check something like Swellow, who can easily U-Turn to something like Drapion / Absol / Houndoom. Lol at 'dealt with heavy damage', that's all I need to say to that. Cresselia isn't some offensive god, it either runs an offensive set or defensive set. Each can be beat with correct choice of Pokemon.
Correct point on Dugtrio, I can't argue that one to much gain. However, I Shed Shell'd everything when Dugtrio was dropped, and it was underwhelming to say the least. If it comes to that now, I'm prepared to do it again. Not much of an issue to me; I'd rather adapt to the metagame and still keep winning than sit here and cry until Cresselia's 'banned'.
I don't understand how offensive players are bitching about something that's almost always defensive. IF anything, CM Cresselia gives Stall more of a headache because you usually have to PP stall it. Offensive teams should fucking destroy Cresselia given you're team isn't a piece of shit and you have enough heavy hitters.
@ Heysup
The fact that you put a condition in your post means that you're argument failed already. I can say 'if x runs y, then its a counter to z' just as easily as what you said.
Sorry if i'm late. Let me just say a few things:
Thorns was saying that no one should use NU pokes when they are outclassed. But i never said to use gimmicks. I said "competitive NU team". When we're talking about being competitive, we're talking about:
1-Using the best pokemon for a specific job(example: Why Pidgeot over... Dodrio in NU? Not to mention Swellow. There's a reason why Swellow is UU, and the others are not)
2-Using pokes that aren't outclassed by anyone(Those examples above).
3-If you're willing to use a poke who's outclassed, just be creative with said poke, or use something that the other can't(Pidgeot should use it's ability Tangled Feet... it can't do it effectively, i know, but that's just a example) and that doesn't end up being a "failure" of a set.
It's hard to do this with NU pokes? Sure, that's why they are NU. But hey, i'm winning with these called "outclassed" pokes(which aren't, because i'm not using things like said Pidgeot, or Lumineon, or whatever gimmicky. I'm using a solid, unique NU team). So Thorns assumed i'm using whatever outclassed poke in a team and said to... NOT giving persons the idea of using said "crap pokes" without even knowing what i'm using(or if he knew because i posted my team here... like i said, that's not my problem).
That was just to clarify things. If possible, read and forget about this lol
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Okay, enough whining for now.
About Cresselia: enyone here thinks that Encore is the best move against Cresselia? It not only shuts Cresselia down for a while, but also buys you some timetime to set up.
ToF said:
This has happened so many times in this thread it is starting to get a little repetitive -_-
I am not arguing Absol is a counter for Cresselia. I am arguing that Absol is a counter for slow Cresselia (I have proven this with calculations), thus running 176 Speed EVs is viable and possibly even more effective than the usual 252/252 bold spread.
So, my point is: running 176 Spe EVs on Cress is important, because otherwise you in fact remove that "conditional counter" aspect of Absol and make it a complete counter by definition.
Sorry if I wasn't clear or if I sound irritated, I've just had to say this a few times (in the last few pages).
Also I missed this:
ToF said:
I 100% agree with this. I have used offense / heavy offense for this whole test, and I've gotten two teams to the top 5 without Cresselia or having trouble with it. (I haven't used Cresselia or Porygonz, if that matters)
If offense has trouble with Cresselia, you are playing offense wrong. Use Absol / Houndoom with Sucker Punch if you're afraid of Dugtrio, or just use Swellow or Scyther with Pursuit if you're afraid of Dugtrio. SD Scyther, Moltres, CMRaikou, SDDrapion, etc there are so many viable Pokemon who beat Cresselia for offense. Not that Cresselia isn't hard to take down; it is. The point is that it isn't "that hard".
I would NOT switch my offensive cresselia into swellow EVER...i would not switch my Offensive Cresselia into something that i know its going to hit me hard with...
You first referred to U-turn breaking sub as in a pokemon comes in on offensive Cress, not the other way around...it will go like this...
I will switch offensive Cress into a lock EQ/fighting move/psychic move(these are examples)...then i set up sub immediately while you switch out and trade in your U-turner....Now the situation is, Offensive Cress behind sub while you are in which gives me a free +1 Special attack from calm mind and you switch in absol/houndoom/drapion, while drapion is the only one who isnt beat by a +1 signal beam and that leads into the entire discussion of what heysup has been saying goes to
EDIT: Forgot to add while you break cresselia's sub with U-turn
The ones I see are exactly the same, but with Leftovers over Flame Orb. I myself run lefties to bluff a bulkier set with Thick Fat and attract status, while having extra bulk, but that's personal preference.
yeah, switch to a spiritomb and zam dies
i'm kinda bored with the whole uxie/ambipom/froslas leads, so i'm going to start testing random shit as leads.
starting with scarf rampardos
lol um..if a cresselia isn't fast...then wouldn't it be using you know...twave reflect...so about that absol...
Its cool when CM Cresselia has Calm Mind, Signal Beam, Psychic, Moonlight/Substitute, Thunder Wave, and Reflect at the same time.
We are/were talking about the Calm Mind set, as most other sets aren't being considered "broken".
Also, for the "offensive" (why is it called that...it is just a faster set) I think ToF's main point is that you sacrifice a lot of bulk for Speed, especially if you run enough in Special Attack to OHKO Absol with a +1 Signal Beam. This is true, and Pokemon like Swellow become harder to deal with. It depends if you think beating Absol is worth it. For a stall team, I think it definitely is.
On the topic of Cresselia sets, reachzero showed me this really cool Charge Beam set that he was using, and I just altered the EVs a bit due to me being afraid of Absol. It's really good, I think I like it better than the CM set (probably because it has room for Thunder Wave). It is still, imo, far from broken.
I think Cresselia is just "really good". Once Froslass, and possibly Pz / Raikou are gone, it might be a different story though, since 2.5 (Pz is the .5) Cresselia checks or counters will be gone.
Is it just me or are you the only one who blatantly refuses to accept that it is indeed broken? How many other pokemon in the tier to you see centralizing the metagame..? :/ If you can find someone else, its pretty safe to say their team is benefiting from Cress to the point where if it were to be banned, it would fall apart.
Please don't try to pass your opinion off as fact. And no, I am not the only person who does not think Cresselia is broken or impossible for offense to beat (ToF is another, if you want an example). Centralizing is not a reason for a Pokemon being broken (look at Salamence / Scizor in OU, or from the other side, look at Wobbuffet). A Pokemon is broken, according to Smogon, if it fulfills one of the characteristics of Uber / BL to an extent that makes it broken. Cresselia may indeed come close to the Defensive, or even offensive characteristic, but it is far from "fact" that it is broken. I am not against nominating it though, a vote wouldn't hurt.
I don't completely follow the second half of your post, but I think you are trying to say "people's teams won't work without Cresselia". First of all, I doubt that is true, but it is impossible to prove at the moment. Anyway lets assume its true for a second. "So?" This happens to a lot of teams with a lot of Pokemon, even more so than Cresselia. For example: A sandstorm team would fall apart without Rhyperior / Cradily. A Spikes Offense team would fall apart without Froslass. I could even get really annoying with this, and say stuff like "A Swellow team would fall apart without Swellow". Clearly a Cresselia team will fall apart, without Cresselia (though Cresselia isn't actually that difficult to replace typing-wise and role-wise...). Are all of these Pokemon (basically every other Pokemon) broken? No. Therefore that argument holds no ground when deciding whether a Pokemon is BL or not.
The only reason I think Cresselia might be too much is that it has an easy time walling and eventually KOing a huge portion of the metagame, which resembles both the defensive and offensive characteristic, but mostly the defensive (it is in fact walling these Pokemon and beating it because they can't touch Cresselia). But again, I do think it is quite easy to handle.
Well I wouldn't be the first now would I? >_>
But anyway,
I have to say I'm going to side with Jamasha here. Offensive Cress is a considerable threat, right up there with the defensive and support sets. Oh wait, that'd be the elusive triple threat wouldnt it? Go have a look at RT.'s team that reached the number one slot.
Im so sorry, I didnt realize you were the supreme ruler of smogon who determines whats broken or not.
Is that not why Froslass was put up for a suspect vote, in which btw I suspect personal interest usurped common sense. Is that not why during the hail craze people demanded Snover be banished. The only thing that keeps many stall teams afloat is Cress. I've spectated many such teams where cress is the last poke standing, and from 4-1 down comes up with a "win".
What concrete evidence have you put forward to support that claim? All I've read is "Absol the MVP, you so sexy, have my babies" - or words to that effect. Well unless your playing around in the dredges of the ladder, that is NOT the case. I will say it again: Absol is not by any means a guarenteed counter to Cresselia. The fact there are multiple sets, each arguably BL, means there is no possibility of guarenteeing a counter.
Not my words, YOURS.
Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.
Oh. My. God. my noodle soup is all over the keyboard thanks to you. XD
This point especially is true. Heysup/ToF you seem to be operating under the assumption that everyone is bordering on mental retardation, which extremely cocky and condescending. Cress should be removed first, no question, so then we can properly test P-Z. From what i can see, Cress' centralization of the metagame is significantly influencing P-Z's effectiveness.
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