You still haven't explained why it's BL except that it's the fastest Taunt, which doesn't really break a metagame, just makes it a little more offense oriented. Anything Steel type will, guaranteed, beat Crobat or at least force a switch, which leads to SR damage stacking up and it being forced to take a hit switching in, which will in turn lead to an opportunity to KO it with a Ground attack following a Roost. It's very beatable, if you have something capable of scoring KOs on your team.
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np: UU - Six Deadly Suspects
- Thread starter Caelum
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Steel types do force switches, but both of them absolutely HATE being Taunted and are virtually useless after that. And using Earthquake I would prefer to not use as an excuse because if it decides to predict your Earthquake, you've given Crobat an extra turn to be nasty to you.
About the BL, I argue that "under common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep". Crobat does not make the game "a little" offensive oreinted. It makes the metagame "very" offensive. We already have Encore users (I'm thinking of you, Clefable) and decent Taunt users (Ambipom, Electrode, Nidoqueen, etc.) to deal with Stall. I would rather have the game "a bit stallish" than have it "very offensive" like OU.
About the BL, I argue that "under common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep". Crobat does not make the game "a little" offensive oreinted. It makes the metagame "very" offensive. We already have Encore users (I'm thinking of you, Clefable) and decent Taunt users (Ambipom, Electrode, Nidoqueen, etc.) to deal with Stall. I would rather have the game "a bit stallish" than have it "very offensive" like OU.
Explain what you mean by "both of them"...and also, Gyro Ball, gg.
Electrode, Ambipom, Persian, and Floatzel can each run Taunt and Rain Dance. All have high speed ratings.
That point is moot. Altaria can switch in on Grass and Ground attacks just as easily and set up Rain Dance again. And speed doesn't really matter anymore, because very few (if any) Pokemon learn Taunt, counter one of the Rain/Sun sweepers, use Grass or Ground attacks, and are faster than Altaria.
Other than weather, I don't see how Crobat can fit under any of the characteristics.
If Crobat has the gall to Taunt Steelix, it's going to get struck by a 150 BP Gyro Ball. Good luck.
Crobat does not make stall teams obselete, it can be beaten. Instead of just carrying six Pokemon with weak offenses that's vulnerable to Taunt, carry something like Regirock or Steelix that can seriously damage Crobat and take laughable damage from Brave Bird. It's not impossible, just use your imagination. There are plenty of Crobat counters in UU; Steelix, all Rock-types, and all Electric-types to name a few. If you can't possibly find a way to work any of them into a stall team, you're just plain lazy.
Crobat does not make stall teams obselete, it can be beaten. Instead of just carrying six Pokemon with weak offenses that's vulnerable to Taunt, carry something like Regirock or Steelix that can seriously damage Crobat and take laughable damage from Brave Bird. It's not impossible, just use your imagination. There are plenty of Crobat counters in UU; Steelix, all Rock-types, and all Electric-types to name a few. If you can't possibly find a way to work any of them into a stall team, you're just plain lazy.
This. Absolutely, completely, THIS. This thread is absolutely full of people who clearly are not capable of coming up with creative solutions to what are ultimately trivial problems, or are simply not willing to and just mindlessly call this and that overpowered whilst hiding behind their feeble 'overcentralization' arguments or whatever else.
Pokemon is not always as cut as dry as 'use 6 bog standards and win'. In fact, I'd go as far as saying that a mentality like that will prevent you from being a truly great player, and that often a little bit of outside the box thinking goes a long way to success. I'm sure EUM would attest to that too, and just look at our rankings atm.
If some of you guys ever saw the team I'm currently using (one that started as a fun excursion but has turned out to be remarkably successful), it would boggle your mind, trust me. Be more creative!
Anyway, on a more relevant note, I was going to post my current views on all the suspects sometime this week, and it looks like I've been beaten to it already. I'll try to do that in the next couple of days, and I'd love to see more people's thoughts too.
Crobat Taunts Steelix on the switch and sends to a slower rain dance setuper.... which typically have a resistance to steel.
Registeel... well I don't have to explain what happens.
Eo, none of those leads have the defenses Crobat does, and none of their resistances are incredibly useful, except in the case of Floatzel which is ruined thanks to Electrode. Also, many of these lose their value later in the game, unlike Crobat.
Altaria is a very good rain dance setuper... it just does not fit the qualities of a lead. It's speed 80, is not fast enough to keep up with Taunters in terems of leads - there are currently 23 in UU that outspeed her.
And weather + Taunt IS why it fits support characteristic
Crobat simply U-Turns it's counters to something that can deal with them, be it Hariyama, Clefable, Kabutops - whatever they have prepared for. The couters may wall Crobat... but they don't wall what comes in next, most likely under weather.
Registeel... well I don't have to explain what happens.
Eo, none of those leads have the defenses Crobat does, and none of their resistances are incredibly useful, except in the case of Floatzel which is ruined thanks to Electrode. Also, many of these lose their value later in the game, unlike Crobat.
Altaria is a very good rain dance setuper... it just does not fit the qualities of a lead. It's speed 80, is not fast enough to keep up with Taunters in terems of leads - there are currently 23 in UU that outspeed her.
And weather + Taunt IS why it fits support characteristic
Crobat simply U-Turns it's counters to something that can deal with them, be it Hariyama, Clefable, Kabutops - whatever they have prepared for. The couters may wall Crobat... but they don't wall what comes in next, most likely under weather.
If you think Crobat is so broken, and it gets moved to UU, then you are more than welcome to abuse the oh-so-powerful Rain Dances you claim it can provide and annihilate with. Honestly, I'm done arguing this. Refer to Lemmiwinks' thread for the reasoning why...I was about to post that, but he beat me to it.
Anyways, does anyone else see a rise in the usage of Toxicroak, or is it just me?
Anyways, does anyone else see a rise in the usage of Toxicroak, or is it just me?
Random thing I noticed:
Most anything can KO an entire metagame at +4 with the right moves, that's not very convincing. Not to mention there's Chansey, random Earthquakers, and stuff that can check it like Toxic Spikes. I haven't had enough experience with Raikou to call it BL. Every time it tried to sweep my then chanseyless team it just got beat by Tspikes or a Scarf Drapion kill.
Most anything can KO an entire metagame at +4 with the right moves, that's not very convincing. Not to mention there's Chansey, random Earthquakers, and stuff that can check it like Toxic Spikes. I haven't had enough experience with Raikou to call it BL. Every time it tried to sweep my then chanseyless team it just got beat by Tspikes or a Scarf Drapion kill.
My worry for crobat is that it tends to restrict choice of viable leads to: crobat, electrode, regirock, or scarfed attacker who can threaten crobat. Any setup lead gets taunted, any slower attacking lead gets u-turned. Whatever the case, leading with crobat invariably starts the match in your favor. It doesn't need to set up anything because it lets your next pokemon set up what they need to more easily.
However, it's possible that there are leads I'm overlooking that become viable in the absence of frosslass. That's why I'd really like to see crobat tested in isolation from the other suspects to see how it will turn out.
However, it's possible that there are leads I'm overlooking that become viable in the absence of frosslass. That's why I'd really like to see crobat tested in isolation from the other suspects to see how it will turn out.
Guys, amidst all of the Crobat debate, we're forgetting one thing:
Even if we bring it back to UU, we can re-nominate it as a suspect.
So we can bring it back to UU, look at how it plays out, and after a month when suspect nominations come around, we take a call on its status.
Even if we bring it back to UU, we can re-nominate it as a suspect.
So we can bring it back to UU, look at how it plays out, and after a month when suspect nominations come around, we take a call on its status.
Sorry I could not reply, I was playing my favorite flash game, SF:DG, for about an hour.
Anyways, I do agree, Crobat needs more testing, individually. We need to determine it's REAL effect on the enviroment in order to test whether or not it is broken.
That is an awasome counter Chris. The only problem is, that now posted, people are going to run T-Spike Absorbers with Raikou. Still, the good thing is they are both weak to Ground, which provides setup oppurtunity.
Anyways, I do agree, Crobat needs more testing, individually. We need to determine it's REAL effect on the enviroment in order to test whether or not it is broken.
That is an awasome counter Chris. The only problem is, that now posted, people are going to run T-Spike Absorbers with Raikou. Still, the good thing is they are both weak to Ground, which provides setup oppurtunity.
Its very Naive to think that Raikou is like other Calm Mind users with 4 Calm Minds. Raikou was the 3rd Fastest Pokemon in the Metagame, while also having the best typing to use it with. Raikou has one weakness, so the numbers of Pokemon it could set up against were so amazingly common. So Raikou is different in the sense that it can EASILY get 3 or 4 CMs, and once it has them its near impossible to stop.
I used Roserade on my team to take out Toxic spikes too, and I dont think im the only one.
I also dont see how a Choice Scarf Drapion could be a Raikou counter, as its OHKOd by a +1 Thunderbolt and doesnt OHKO Raikou with Earthquake. I would think CS Drapion would be rather weak too...
People ALWAYS run Toxic Spike absorbers with SubCM Raikou, it was almost written in stone.
The people that didnt used other Variants of Raikou, such as LO+CM+3 Attacks to plow through a team quickly.
The one thing I "miss" about Raikou is its "presence". Especially in my recent battles with Good stall users such as EUM, I used to maybe win 40-45% percent of the time against him with Raikou, but I just cant do it with Espeon.
Espeon does not have bring same mentality for an opposing player that Raikou did. With Raikou, i could litterally "force" a player to go to Chansey or Registeel, as after a couple CMs Chansey/Registeel would fall, and his Shaymin was not good insurance against Raikou due to HP Ice.
Against EUM, sent out Raikou against his Milotic, he would be forced to go to Chansey, and i could go safely to Blaziken/Azumaril and eventually take out his other Pokemon due to him being so focused on stopping Raikou. Where as with Espeon he can get rid of it with a Shaymin due to Espeon's lack of Bulk.
Isn't that a reason alone to ban Raikou? I mean, when he becomes such a focus, it's a little out of hand. And when the walls can't wall anymore, then he passes the points that he needs to to get banned.
[QUOTE="HeYsUp]Against EUM, sent out Raikou against his Milotic, he would be forced to go to Chansey, and i could go safely to Blaziken/Azumaril and eventually take out his other Pokemon due to him being so focused on stopping Raikou. Where as with Espeon he can get rid of it with a Shaymin due to Espeon's lack of Bulk.[/QUOTE]
omg pokemon beats pokemon with move
Seriously, "Special Sweeper lures out Chansey so that wallbreaker can have its way with stall team" is not all that special, and just because Chansey was the best answer that the team has for beating Raikou doesn't make it broken. I happen to think that Raikou is broken, but not for the lame-ass reasons you have there. Take OU. I'm running (insert strong special sweeper here), and as they switch to Bliss, I bring in Mixape, and boom. I win. I hardly see how that makes the special sweeper broken. Saying that a Pokemon "forces" someone to take such drastic measures as bringing Chansey in on a potent special attacker is just stupid.
omg pokemon beats pokemon with move
Seriously, "Special Sweeper lures out Chansey so that wallbreaker can have its way with stall team" is not all that special, and just because Chansey was the best answer that the team has for beating Raikou doesn't make it broken. I happen to think that Raikou is broken, but not for the lame-ass reasons you have there. Take OU. I'm running (insert strong special sweeper here), and as they switch to Bliss, I bring in Mixape, and boom. I win. I hardly see how that makes the special sweeper broken. Saying that a Pokemon "forces" someone to take such drastic measures as bringing Chansey in on a potent special attacker is just stupid.
Where did i say "Shoud be Banned" or "is Broken"? Misquoting=Win. Stop doing that?
Well when Quagsire starts seeing use, you know you have a bit of an Issue.....but yes its a good coutner to the HP Ice variant.
Minor nitpick. Joint 5th alongside Ambipom, Floatzel, Persian and Sneasel.
Can you stop doing this? What exactly is wrong with Quagsire? If Quagsire just so happens to fit someone's team well and serves a useful purpose, then there is nothing wrong whatsoever with using it. You seem to be implying that you can't make a successful team with Quagsire, which just screams of pure ignorance.
So, why was Quagsire mentioned as away to combat Raikou when Gastrodon is clearly superior for the task? 111/82 is much better for taking special hits than 95/65. It also has a reliable recovery move and can't get Trickscarfed. And while Quagsire's water immune lets it switch into bulky waters, it's just asking to get Toxicked or Grass Knotted.
Who else is faster? I count Crobat and Sceptile...well i forgot Swellow...Am i missing some?
Quagsire is outclassed in every way by other waters, aside from countering Raikou. There is nothing wrong with it if it fits in your team, and I, in no way, implied you couldnt make a successful team with Quagsire.
If you disagree with the fact that Milotic and other Bulky waters outclass Quagsire the I dont know what to say, or why anyone would think otherwise. What im saying is if the "useful purpose" mentioned in your post is only for Countering Raikou, then yes its an example of an over specialized counter.
I'd like to Point out that i still think Raikou needs further testing, and im not sure if it is BL worthy. But I would also like to point out that their are arguments for both sides.
Swellow and Electrode.
No, other bulky Waters may be better Pokemon overall, but they do not outclass Quagsire in every other way. Countering Raikou isn't even Quagsire's defining niche at all. It is Water / Ground typing alongside Water Absorb, giving it plenty of defensive utility with two awesome immunities and four resists leaving a single weakness. Then there's moves like Encore, Counter, Curse etc that other Waters either don't have or don't use as well as Quagsire.
In fact, if countering Raikou was its only use, then that would be pointless as Gastrodon no doubt outclasses it in this regard with the much higher special defense and reliable recovery. Water Absorb simply isn't a factor here, and neither is Encore, as the best way to beat Raikou is to just plug away with Earthquake anyway.
Agreed.
The problem is, people take this way too far. Just because you can find ways to deal with a pokemon, that doesn't mean it's not broken. For instance, we're back on the topic of random Raikou 'counters' which die to a super effective HP again. Actually, it's worse than that, because most of the pokemon mentioned in this thread that supposedly can deal with Raikou actually do little for your team otherwise. Most of them can't even do anything worthwhile on the switch, let alone threaten or come in on any other pokemon regularly. At least pokemon like Steelix and Registeel are solid in other situations.
The point was that Raikou forced you to specialize against it. It was not as if you just had to keep it in mind when teambuilding - you had to make sure it was double covered. Even then, your team likely could still be swept by a certain Raikou set that maybe only a couple percent of people were running. You play the odds when you're forced to. Personally, I just used a more defensive Raikou against Raikou. That was one of the few ways my 'Raikou counter' could actually threaten something itself.
And yeah, you can run an anti-metagame team and be successful on the ladder. I don't think that's ever been doubted by anyone intelligent here. However, teams like that are generally regarded as 'gimmicky' for a reason - if your opponent knows what's coming, it won't work. For instance, when I was running Spikes Roserade in the first month after the merger, I was running only Sludge Bomb on it - no grass attack. Still, the threat of a grass attack was enough to get me a few free turns most battles. However, now that it's common to see defensive Roserade not using a grass attack, actually running one gives you immense payoff the second time it switches in. Most successful teams have a surprise or two like this, but we should really make sure to differentiate that from running a team of sub-par pokemon. Standards are standard for a reason, after all.
Yeah,Raikou deserves the ban.Having only 1 weakness,115 base speed and 115 base Sp.Atk combined with CM and Substitute make it an awesome late game sweeper and a stall breaker.Also,if it sets up 4+CMs it can mean gg,since not many Pokemon can stop him.
Howrever Crobat doesn't.Fast Taunt+U-Turn is no big deal.It has some common weaknesses,including a Rock one,making him unable to switch in to SR many times.Also,it's not that hard to take down.All Pokemon that are Rock or Steel types and have a good defense wall him completely.
Howrever Crobat doesn't.Fast Taunt+U-Turn is no big deal.It has some common weaknesses,including a Rock one,making him unable to switch in to SR many times.Also,it's not that hard to take down.All Pokemon that are Rock or Steel types and have a good defense wall him completely.
Well everybody has differing views on this subject, and I respect your opinion obviously. The main reason I'm not convinced that Railkou is broken is that it doesn't provide the immediate threat to put prepared teams that have their bases covered on the back foot in any way, though it comes alot closer than most to that kind of threat.
If it had access to something like Taunt or 101 HP Subs, or even a set that resembled formidable type coverage, that would possbly be enough to seal it for me, although naturally I'd have to see the effect in testing. As it stands though, Raikou has none of these, and that leaves such a wide variety of scope for dealing with it. I have personally never felt 'forced' to specialize against it. Not once. What I have been forced to do is find ways to tweak the teams I create in order to provide adequate coverage against any problem Pokemon I notice whilst not compromising the synergy of the team. This sometimes includes Raikou, but is quite frankly just as likely to be any other threat, and IMO this is a normal part of the team-building process that every good player should be doing all the time.
What I'm ultimately saying is this. For te month or so that e have experienced with Raikou so far, I have yet to be convinced by its brokenness, therefore I cannot vote BL if voting were to happen today. I may well change my mind in the future, but it will require more testing for me no doubt. Unfortunately, I get the feeling that that won't happen, which will aggravate me a little, but hey, the system can't satisfy everyone, so if that happens I'll just brush it off and move on. What I blame the most really is the structure of the system itself. I've always asserted that 1-2 months is nowhere near enough time to form a solid opinion on all the suspects out there. Some, but not all.
IMO playing with somewhat of an anti-metagame mentality is the only way to be consistently successful. You can't cover everything 100% anymore, so the best way to play is to try and cover your bases as broadly as possible whilst focusing on the common trends, and being prepared to consistently tweak your teams to account for these trends. And no, I've never felt that I've been having success with so-called 'sub-par' Pokemon just for the surprise factor at all. Non-standard =/= sub-par.
If you want defensive leads, you have Altaria, Omastar, Drifblim, Clefable, ...etc. Even though they aren't as fast, they still have some insurance against Taunt users, many of which are either fragile or slower. Drapion can't take repeated Dragon Pulses or Earthquakes forever, and...well I can't actually find any other users of Taunt that outspeed Altaria and are particularly adept at taking its hits.
I don't play that one-dimensionaly. (At least not consistently.)
I do indeed agree, and here's one example.
I had been arguing against Staraptor's banning because Luxray is a surefire counter against it. Some people have sort of dismissed this argument because "it's Luxray." While there may be other aspects of Staraptor that will get it banned, I want to point out that one cannot overlook a counter just because it seems ridiculous or extremely specific counter on first sight. Luxray is not an "overspecialized" counter; it handles Kabutops, Feraligatr, Azumarill, Honchkrow, Scyther, Crobat, and other such Pokemon very well. I used it extensively in the early stages of the new UU, and it served me extremely well. Speaking of which, Luxray can set up a Light Screen or Roar out Raikou if need be, though that probably isn't the best usage of it.
Now, if Luxray can do so much for a team, is it that hard to believe the Quagsire can be more useful than a Raikou counter?
Also, Chansey can beat Raikou no matter what set it runs. This is not an overspecialization, nor does not necessarily require an additional check.
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