np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Alienation of the Wretched

[alexwolf]

Deoxys-D - I use this a lot, I wouldn't say it gives an unfair advantage in battle. First of all it has one role, suicide lead. Yes you can set up 1/2 layers of hazards most of the time but you go a pokemon down. This means your team really has to take advantage of the hazards and keep them there for this to be a sensible strategy. Starting the match 5-6 gives you fewer options and seems to be a fair trade off for getting hazards up.

Secondly defog / rapid spin can be fitted onto basically any team. Yes there are defiant users / ghost types but every team is prepared to check +2 bisharp, not to mention even with the defiant boost you have lost your hazards to the defog. Excadrill can beat Aegislash with Iron Head on the switch in so even picking air balloon leaves it to a 50 50. Overall trying to stop the hazards being removed takes work and teamslots to attempt and does not necessarily happen. You can say something like "use offensive pressure" but this is more down to the actual battle and how the opponents defog user matches up against your team.

Finally deo-d has a fair few viable counter leads, and because it will be leading nearly every time stuff like sash sd chomp, cm landorus, sub gengar, np thundurus etc can setup and proceed to take out deo-d and an extra pokemon. These are pokemon that work outside of beating deo-sharp - its not a disadvantage to be running these if you aren't facing deo d. Aegislash is everywhere and limits deo to one layer if not running red card.

Deoxys-s - I rarely use this as I like offensive pokemon on my teams to contribute to synergy/ be able to switch into at least some pokemon. Lead sets I prefer Deo-d. From my experiences facing it I would not say it is broken either. Offensive sets are not hard to handle and it can really only come in for revenge kills/ slow u-turn or volt switch. Its main moves drop its stats so even once it comes in it has to switch out again pretty soon which leaves set up opportunities/ breathing space for more defensive teams. Basically hazards / life orb mean that any of your priority users will be able to take it out while ignoring its speed, and it is not powerful to the point that offensive teams lack pokemon that can take any one hit and ko back.

I'd actually say that offensive deo-s is very healthy for the meta, without it you lose a pokemon that checks the dd boosting meta and a lot of offensive pokemon in one slot. In such an offensive meta its good to have an extra pokemon that can deal with a lot of the threats that can otherwise sweep you. Without Deo-s every offensive team will be limited to t wave thundy or a scarf ground type to be able to check dd tar, gyara and zard x in one slot. I feel deo-s balances the meta more than a lot of people realise and banning it will likely make future suspects more dangerous.

Deo-s support sets are fine for this meta as well, they really only add to the perceived danger of deo-s by giving it unpredictability, dual screens/ hazard/ rain lead are not that special by themselves. They are reliable in what they do but as with Deo-d they still leave you 5-6.

Yeah so I would not ban either.

The pressure of two layers of hazards, which are almost guaranteed against most defensive and many balanced playstyles, is often insurmountable for such teams, as a single double switch as you bring in your check / counter to a threat means that this check or counter is practically unable to check the threat you want anymore (25% damage from hazards * 2, minus the Lefties recovery from two turns, which results in a 37.5% net health loss). Are all teams supposed to use Excadrill, Latios, and Latias? Because any other slow or moderately slow Defog user can and usually is overwhelmed by the sheer offensive pressure of the 5 teammates of Deo-D + damage from dual hazards, considering that almost all of those 5 Pokemon will be usually faster than the Defog users. And this is without even getting to how many excellent offensive Pokemon exist that can OHKO the majority of Defog users and Excadrill, (Greninja, Knock off Thundurus, Knock Off + Heat Wave Tornadus-T, Head Smash Aegislash), Taunt them (Tornadus-T, Thundurus, Terrakion, Talonflame, Mega Gyarados, Gengar), or just take advantage of them (Defiant Bisharp and Defiant Thundurus). So between all those ways to make sure that entry hazards leave their mark on each game, plus the tremendous pressure offensive teams can apply with very safe double switches, any team not as fast paced is going to struggle a lot to overcome the advantage that Deo-D gives to an offensive team.

Furthermore, the Excadrill vs Deo-D + Air Balloon situation is not quite as easy for the Excadrill player as you are describing it. Excadrill has to predict twice correctly to KO Aegislash (use Iron Head as Aegi comes in, and then use EQ if Aegi stays in), and even then, entry hazards are still up and Excadrill will need to find another turn to get rid of them. After predicting correctly TWO times. If Excadrill uses Iron Head and Deo-D stays in, Deo-D will get up a second layer of hazards. If Excadrill uses Earthquake against Aegislash after breaking its Balloon and a Pokemon that can tank EQ and threaten Excadrill switches in, the Exca players is in big trouble (Deo-D is still alive to set up more hazards, and the Deo-D players has SR up + momentum). Even if you predict correctly and use Rapid Spin as Aegi swithcs out, the opponent still has the momentum and Deo-D alive to set up the hazards again. And the burden of predicting correctly is on the Excadrill player, as Deo-D can afford to make many mistakes (set up hazards multiple times as Exca uses Rapid Spin and then inevitably you will find an opening to bring in a Pokemon that threatens Excadrill as Excadrill uses Rapid Spin, which is practically a free switch, while Deo-D can still try to set up some hazards later). And all this is if you have Excadrill, which is supposed to be one of the best ways to deal with Deo-D. Imagine how much teams without Excadrill, Latios, or Latias are going to struggle. Yeah, when using teams without Excadrill, Latios, or Latias, you can make up for the early-game advantage that Deo-D gives to the opponent with smart playing and good predicts, and come out on top, but prediction goes both ways.

Lastly, all the Pokemon you mentioned to counter-lead Deo-D are Pokemon used on offensive teams and some bulky offense teams, but most of them absolutely don't fit on any defensive-minded playstyle, from balance to full stall. Basically, only offense will be able to regularly fit in an anti-Deo-D lead without going out of their way to deal with it, either in teambuilding or in the actual battle. And this is partially why we have such an offensive metagame, because to deal with Deo-D you have to go on the offensive, otherwise it's going to be an uphill battle or you will have to overprepare for it while teambuilding.

As for Deo-S, when you downplay its two biggest advantages, of course you are not going to find it broken. Its ability to flawlessly support its team in a multitude of ways while still being able to do other roles (revenge kill and provide multiple kinds of support at the same time, which means versatility) is what makes it broken. And the ''it checks offensive Pokemon'' argument really doesn't work at all as Deo-S only really fits on offense, as it provides zero defensive synergy on balanced and stall teams. So, Deo-S is in reality only helping offense and not limiting or keeping it in check at all.

I know it's not easy to convince you and practice > words (you formed your opinion mainly through practice, and i am trying to convince you with words), but you just can't deny how offensive the metagame is and you can't deny that Deo-S and Deo-D are the biggest reasons for this, as they are almost always the Pokemon that offensive teams rely to for support. And if offensive teams can be so successful in a metagame where everyone is supposed to be overprepared for them, with very formulaic teambuilds and a lot of 50-50 decisions that basically judge the effect of the whole game (will you manage to outplay the opponent and spin with Excadrill by winning the two coin-flips that i mentioned earlier?), then there is definitely something wrong with them. Some offensive Pokemon could take some of the blame for this situation, but Deo-D and Deo-D usually contribute much more than every single sweeper can, at least from my point of view. Deo'S's screens are what allow your first set up sweeper to weaken that crucial Pokemon on the opponent's and get the momentum rolling, or even KO it and keep on rolling. Deo-D's entry hazards are what allow your sweepers to wear down their checks and counters so easily. And the same will be true for Deo-S if only Deo-D gets banned, as Deo-S will just take its place. Deo-S's revenge killing ability is what keeps your offensive team from getting swept, while simultaneously being able to switch moves (unlike other Pokemon at similar Speed levels and power) and set up hazards.

The only way i can get why you don't think Deo-D and Deo-S are broken is if you really like a very offensive-based metagame, but even then, those two do nothing but create a stale metagame, as they basically eliminate any and all competition when it comes to offensive support.

 

[Nova]

The main issue with Deoxys-S is its versatility. It separates itself from other Pokemon by being able to run a variety of sets and being able to run those sets extremely well. Deoxys-S can run support sets in the form of its entry hazard setter, dual screener, as well as a Rain Dance supporter while also being able to be a dangerous Life Orb sweeper. The entry hazard setter set pretty much guarantees Stealth Rock + 1 layer of Spikes at the minimum vs non Hyper Offensive teams while also being able to shut down your opponent from getting up and of their hazards or setting up with the fastest non-priority Taunt in the game. It can even use Mirror Coat or Mental Herb to shut down priority Taunters. The dual screener set is pretty much just as effective as the entry hazard setter. It's almost guaranteed to get up both Reflect and Light Screen which provides a ton of support for the rest of the team and can also set up Stealth Rock as well and shut down opposing support with Taunt. The Rain Dance support set is again very similar as he basically guarantees a Rain Dance and potentially some entry hazards. Lastly, its Life Orb attacker set functions as a great cleaner. Base 95 Attack and 95 Special Attack are not the best offensive stats but they are decent enough and are augmented by the coverage and high base power of Deoxys-S move pool. It can choose from Superpower, Psycho Boost, Knock Off, Ice Beam, and HP Fire/Fire Punch to hit pretty much everything it needs to hard from both sides of the spectrum. This coverage makes it so you really never know if you're safe since Deoxys-S can carry almost anything. It also provides a team with a great revenge killer with its blistering speed to revenge the likes of +1 Dragonite or Gyarados without being locked into a Scarf. Whereas Deoxys-D can only run support sets, Deoxys-S adds the additional dimension of an offensive set that can throw opponent off guard which makes its even harder to handle. Pokemon that can fill one role extremely well have the ability to centralize a metagame, and when you have a Pokemon that is a top threat in multiple roles then it really becomes too centralizing.

 

[stairwaytohell]

I don't think that Deod totally outclasses the speed form as an hazard setter, both have their pros and cons: deos is bulkier and deos can prevent faster defoggers to remove his hazards ( also the max hp / max def spread that has been used recently can help deoxys-s to have some nice bulk, allowing him to avoid the 2hko from leadchomp's eq etc while still outspeeding stuff like +1 gyarados ). If the goal is nerfing hyperoffense team then banning the defensive form should be the right choice, but honestly i don't feel like to let deoxys-s free in ou. His versatility combined with great support moves AND the ability to revengekill and clean stuff lategame makes it totally banworthy imo, since it has became too centralizing in ou. So i'm probably gonna vote to ban both, deoxys-s for sure. Deoxys-d can probably stay, but it's also a huge support mon and the metagame could not change much with the only ban of the speedy alien, since deoxys d can take his place in overcentralizing the ou tier.

 

[Rafael J. Feliciano]

As an avid user of Hyper Offense I'd just like to throw in my 2 cents.

Deoxys-Defense: I've had a ton of experience with this thing, and it is bar none the most reliable hazards setter in OU (but you already knew that). What makes it so unique is the unreal combination of ubers-worthy bulk, decent speed (enough to outspeed most relevant things in OU that flat out OHKO it), and its access to an excellent support movepool. Another interesting thing to consider is how it can beat a lot of things that can potentially OHKO it or stop it from doing its job. Running Magic Coat lets it beat fast Taunters. Running Mirror Coat lets it beat non-LO Aegislash. Running Superpower + a few Atk EVs lets it OHKO the most common forms of Bisharp and start the game 5-5 with hazards (as opposed to 5-6 with hazards).

At this point, we have to ask ourselves: why would we use any other entry hazard lead? There's the option of Shuckle, who trades Spikes for Sticky Web, or Mamoswine/Landorus-I/Garchomp, who thrive on the instant offensive pressure that they generate upon entering the field. The problem with the latter is that they are unreliable. They must run a Focus Sash in order to not be instantly KOed by faster threats, which means a fast/priority Taunt will ensure they don't do their job.

We move on to Shuckle, who will surely be the HO lead of choice in the event of a Deo-D ban. The disadvantage of using Shuckle is that without the huge support movepool of Deo-D, it is easily exploited by a set-up sweeper early game. It is also slower than most common Defoggers, and can't do anything back to them (whereas Deo-D could just Taunt them and keep hazards in play). Shuckle is only used now for its niche of Sticky Web - that's all it has over Deo-D. Deo-D is better in every single way.

For this reason, it harms the diversity of the metagame. If you want an effective hazards user for a HO team, you run Deo-D. Nothing else.

Ban Deoxys-Defense

Deoxys-Speed: This thing is ridiculous. The amount of shit it can do is unreal. One of my most successful team has utilised the Dual Screens set to set up and start doing damage right off the bat. More recently, the new wave of Baton Pass teams have come under some fire, with some labelling them broken. Surely this is only because of the free turns that Deo-S provides with its screens support, forcing the opponent into the choice of Defogging away screens, or staring down a Scolipede with +2 Defense and screens support to boot. This strategy would be much less threatening should Deo-S see a ban.

In the previous Deo-S suspect test, the majority of Deo-S' were still hazards leads - a set that is (mostly) outclassed by Deo-D. Because of this, many found Deo-S underwhelming and voted not to ban. A few weeks later, its deadly LO Revenge Killer set surfaced in OU, being able to revenge kill nearly every relevant offensive threat. A single Pokemon should not have the means to do that so effectively. With the incredible offensive pressure this set generates, it forces switches easily and sets up Stealth Rock with ease, being able to dodge the majority of Taunts in the metagame.

It can run so many other sets too, but I can't be assed to list them all. Bottom line is, the incredible diversity of this mon means there are no hard stops to all of its sets - and one wrong switch can punish your Pokemon or your team tremendously, whether it be in the form of screens or a nuke in Psycho Boost.

Ban Deoxys-Speed

Absolutely agree with these assessments... since this thread is only 7 pages deep I'm trying to comb through the assessments and I agree 1000% on this one.

Everytime I feel like building a team and I think about hazards, its gotten to a point where I'm saying: WHY THE F*CK AM I NOT USING DEOXYS-D!?

That alone show how centralizing he is. Expansive Movepool, beasty 160 Def/SpD with 90 Spe and merging it with Mental Herb just guarantees set-up with virtually no downside (faster than most hazard users/access to taunt).

As for Deoxys-S, I'll admit, when we first suspect tested him alongside Mega Lucario, I didn't see him as big a threat, but then again this might have been me holding out hope that the meta might be able to contain this damn thing.

However, if the same logic that doomed Mega Luke to Ubers is applied, then it goes without saying that Deoxys-S needs to go to.

Just admit Game Freak literally made an alien Pokémon that can withstand the test of time, alongside Mewtwo, a genetic experiment and THE legendary birds, Ho-Oh and Lugia. (Game Freak Face Palm)

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

I think that Deoxys-D is not a pokemon that is obviously broken because it can destroy the metagame so easily with little to no skill, like Mega Kangaskhan did in the early XYOU metagame.

The problem with Deoxys-D is how it defines one style (Deosharp) and how it's very difficult to stop doing his job (Scarf Heracross, Mega Heracross (with less than 212 Speed Evs + neutral nature on Deoxys-D), Mega Pinsir with X-Scissor (with less than 212 EVs + positive nature on Deoxys-D) , Specs Gengar, Specs Chandelure if Deoxys-D has less than 172 Evs + positive nature), Specs/Life Orb Yanmega, and very few more). Of those sets only one is fully viable (and requires Deoxys-D to have less speed) and the other one it's viable but it's not the most common set of this pokemon nor the recommended one.

About my experience removing hazards, I see thate even with Bisharp, Aegislash (specially with Air Balloon) or Thundurus on the other team it's very difficult to use Rapid Spin/Defog against the other team, it's difficult to remove hazards versus offensive teams. And many times you have the dilemma of using Rapid Spin/Defog vs using a powerful attack a lot of times. In stall teams is worse because stall teams rarely can kill Deoxys-D easily giving the oppoortuny of restore the hazards.

IOn other words, I think Deoxys-D is uncompetitive in the current OU metagame. There's no point to have hazards as prominent as ever with Rapid Spin Excadrill unbanned, and with the new Defog mechanics (whose has a lot of very viable users, Latios, Latias, Zapdos, Togekiss, Mandibuzz, Scizor, Skarmory, etc). In other words, Ban Deoxys-D.

 

[Topaz]

Deoxys-S is a powerful tool to promote an offensive metagame, which in my opinion is very fast-paced and enjoyable to play in. Long games lead to more mistakes, choking, and frustration, perhaps not universally, but not everyone has patience or desire to sit through upwards of 75 turn battles, that is something to think about. Offensively-based metagames promote intelligent team building and creative use of surprise movesets. Try to keep in mind that a team must have 5 non-deoxys teammates and that just being forced to have deo on a team is not really that restrictive to team-building. If it seems stale or unfair to non-offensive playstyles, well that's just the way it is.

Deo-D is another story, and while banning just Deo-D will cause "deo-S to rise up and fill its shoes" as alexwolf pointed out, I really don't think that's such a bad thing. Having an effective all-around lead and hazard-setter allows you to pump out momentum and get a strong foot into the game without having to devote all of your strategy to just the opening play, so more is available for how you handle the other stages of the game. Basically, even though it outclasses a lot of other support mons, I feel it serves an integral cog in the desirable meta.

Consider the DPP metagame, where leads such as Azelf and Aerodactyl shined through their simplicity of use. They worked well due to how reliable their performance was, always getting the job done except in the rarest of cases. And back then games were hardly, if ever, decided on just what the lead matchup ended up becoming, and that was without team-preview.

Deoxys does a great job reliably creating the offensive pressure to get the ball rolling, but its still up to the rest of your well-designed team to take advantage of it, as it should be.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

Do you want to defeat Deoxys-D? Of course, you want the best moves available.

If you do so, prepare to see to have this attack:
Requirements for certain moves to OHKO 252 HP/4 Def/252+ Spe Deoxys-D:
-With MegaHorn: 417 Base Attack.
-With Skill Link Pin Missile 391 Base Attack.
-With Technician Bug Bite, 558 Base Attack.
-With Bug Buzz, 556 Base Special Attack.
-With X-Scissor, 627 Base Attack.
-With Shadow Ball, 628 Special Attack.
-With Shadow Claw, 718 Attack.
-With Knock Off (only the first time), 519 Attack. Next time, at least 779 Attack.
-With Crunch, 627 Base Attack.
-With Dark Pulse, 628 Special Attack.

Only Mega Heracross (which is slower) can OHKO with Pin Missile without boosting item. Other things who can OHKO Deoxys-D are CB/LO Escavalier, LO Heracross, CB Scolipede, CB Scizor, Specs Aegislash, CB Bisharp. No more. Witht eh exception of CB Scolipede (with is not standard nor common, all of them are slower).

 

[Stoo]

i feel like in the closed environment of the suspect test the archetypal deosharp team has become even more firmly established. ive literally just faced the exact same team of deo-d, bisharp, mawile-mega, thundurus, landorus, balloon aegi three times in a row vs different players. if ever there was proof needed that deo-d creates a stale metagame, this is it.

 

[Zebstrika]

Do you want to defeat Deoxys-D? Of course, you want the best moves available.

If you do so, prepare to see to have this attack:
Requirements for certain moves to OHKO 252 HP/4 Def/252+ Spe Deoxys-D:
-With MegaHorn: 417 Base Attack.
-With Skill Link Pin Missile 391 Base Attack.
-With Technician Bug Bite, 558 Base Attack.
-With Bug Buzz, 556 Base Special Attack.
-With X-Scissor, 627 Base Attack.
-With Shadow Ball, 628 Special Attack.
-With Shadow Claw, 718 Attack.
-With Knock Off (only the first time), 519 Attack. Next time, at least 779 Attack.
-With Crunch, 627 Base Attack.
-With Dark Pulse, 628 Special Attack.

Only Mega Heracross (which is slower) can OHKO with Pin Missile without boosting item. Other things who can OHKO Deoxys-D are CB/LO Escavalier, LO Heracross, CB Scolipede, CB Scizor, Specs Aegislash, CB Bisharp. No more. Witht eh exception of CB Scolipede (with is not standard nor common, all of them are slower).

Scooped only needs LO and adamant to one shot deoxys. Also adamant crawdaunt has a .81 chance to Ohko itemless. Banded weavile has a chance too and it outspeeds

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Deoxys-D should be banned. Even Weavile, one of the strongest Knock Off abusers in the game and one of the few Dark-types who can outspeed Deo-D, cannot OHKO it at full health and can't stop it from getting at least 1 layer of hazards up. Once Weavile/Heracross/any other Deoxys-D check goes down, if the Deoxys-D user has a latias on their team, they have one more shot at getting up 103050846760 layers on the opposing side courtesy of Healing Wish. Bulkier Defog users that don't fear Bisharp are usually slower than Deo-D, so it can simply Taunt them and render some of them useless (e.g. Mandibuzz).

 

[Syberia]

Echoing what seems to be the common sentiment in this thread. The guaranteed hazards need to go. Both forms of Deoxys need to go at this point, as their primary role is the same, but I think Deo-D is the bigger problem of the two. It cannot be OHKOed by basically anything in the tier, leaving it free to not run Focus Sash, and instead use either Mental Herb to block Taunt or Red Card to either buy it an extra turn or force out anything that has used it as setup fodder. On top of that, lead Deo-D creates a situation in which you literally have to guess what the opponent is going to do on turn 1, with no previous information, to have any chance of stopping it. Even then, with Mental Herb, they're still going to get one layer of hazards up, and if you do anything wrong, they get at least 2.

Deo-S, while lacking in the bulk department (but still not OHKOed by most non super effective attacks) is not "as good" as a pure hazard setter, though it's still decent at it, but makes up for it with its versatility. Having some offensive presence, namely a powerful Psycho Boost, means it is able to power its way through most Taunt users not named Sableye on the turn they go for Taunt. Of course, you could switch to something resistant/immune to Psycho Boost, only to have it start laying hazards in your face because you predicted wrong. And keep in mind, you're doing all of this on turn 1, before you even get the chance to know any of Deoxys's moveset.

Because of its speed, though, laying hazards is not all Deo-S can do effectively, though. It can also set up screens, particularly once hazards are already in play, to set up a sweep by something like Charizard X, who realistically only needs one turn of setup to be deadly. Though you can probably make the argument that a Prankster user like Klefki is a better screens-then-die Pokemon, Deo-S's selling point is that it can set up hazards, and screens, all the while maintaining offensive pressure so long as you have not seen its entire moveset.

On Defog, the main counter-argument for banning Deoxys - both forms are usually used on hyper offense teams where wasting a turn to Defog or Rapid Spin isn't always that feasible, and will often either get something killed or allow the opponent a turn of setup which can be gamebreaking. NOT clearing the hazards, on the other hand, often results in Pokemon taking 25% or more damage on switch-in, which can be just as devastating. And for situations of Deo vs Deo, it's even worse - win a speed tie, or chances are you won't get your hazards up at all. This was the same thing that ultimately ended up happening all the way back in DP, when Deo-S was first tested in OU. Honestly, not much has changed in their support abilities since then, except a few changed mechanics to make them less susceptible to Taunt. Defog, the supposed answer to hazards this gen, really isn't when you think of the HO teams typically seen alongside Deoxys. You simply don't have the opportunity to use it.

 

[forestflamerunner]

Made reqs sometime yesterday. I’m going to vote to ban both of the intergalactic pieces of spam. Your welcome Earth


Deoxys-D: I’m pretty sure anyone who doesn’t strictly play HO would say this thing is broken. Trying to handle the five monstersthis thing is paired up with is a nightmare when you have at least two layers of hazards on your side of the field, and there is no good way to get rid of the hazards because Deoxys-D. Balance teams are usually some of the most creative and interesting teams to play and use. They are virtually nonexistent in this meta because they cannot handle the HO sweepers when they also have to deal with Deoxys’s spikes. All in all, this thing needs to go.


Deoxys-S: Deoxys-S is almost as good at stacking hazards as Deoxys-D, and will take over its duties if only Deoxys=D gets banned. Lets get it right the first time. Ban Deoxys-S as well

 

[Elite Lord Sigma]

Consider the DPP metagame, where leads such as Azelf and Aerodactyl shined through their simplicity of use. They worked well due to how reliable their performance was, always getting the job done except in the rarest of cases. And back then games were hardly, if ever, decided on just what the lead matchup ended up becoming, and that was without team-preview.

The problem with this analogy is that DPP OU didn't have horrifyingly powerful attackers like Mega Charizard X, Mega Pinsir, LO Sheer Force Landorus-I, any variant of Aegislash that isn't SubToxic, Mega Mawile, Defiant Bisharp with a beefed up Knock Off, Fairy-type Azumarill, and so on and so forth. Just to illustrate that point, allow me to compare some of the Pokemon I mentioned both before and after one turn of set-up to Dragon Dance Gyarados, one of the top threats in DPP OU.


252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 102-120 (25.2 - 29.7%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 151-178 (37.3 - 44%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 201-237 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 399-471 (98.7 - 116.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 178-211 (44 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 357-420 (88.3 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 207-244 (51.2 - 60.3%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 310-366 (76.7 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


As should be clear from the samples given, the power of one of the best offensive Pokemon in Gen IV doesn't hold a Litwick to the heavy hitters of today's metagame. Also, in spite of the lack of Defog hazard removal in Gen IV, there were more Rapid Spinners viable in OU than there are today (pretty much just Excadrill, which gets spinblocked by the most common Pokemon in the tier). The simplicity with which Deoxys-D or Deoxy-S can provide hazard and/or screen support makes these already powerful attackers nightmarish to deal with.

 

[Nova]

Piggybacking off of that, Deoxys-S has several improvements over the standard DPP leads such as Azelf and Aerodactyl. One thing, XY is not so heavily lead matchup based where teams have a dedicated lead as is in the case of DPP. With team preview, you can see your opponent's team, predict what they might lead with, and choose the Pokemon that fares best against their possible lead or can give you an immediate advantage. So even if Deoxys-S is an entry hazard or dual screen set, it doesn't necessarily have to lead and can come in at a later point in the game without immediately giving an advantage to the opponent. If it does decide to lead, then Deoxys-S favors much better in lead matchups than any of the standard DPP leads. In DPP there were many different dedicated leads, each with their own advantage and capabilities of defeating other leads but also with weaknesses to certain leads that made it so many leads were viable and there weren't dominant ones. Deoxys-S on the other hand is very dominant as a a lead in the current XY OU metagame. There really is very little teams can do to stop it from getting Stealth Rock and possibly one layer of Spikes while also not being to set up your own due to his ridicuously fast Taunt. Unless your running some niche Prankster user to Taunt Deoxys-S (which might not even work if he carries Mental Herb or Magic Coat), Deoxys-S wins pretty much every "lead" matchup. All DPP leads had some checks/counters, Deoxys-S really has none that are viable in the OU meta. Additionally, the DPP leads like Azelf and Aerodactyl mainy try to prevent the opponent from setting up, getting their own Stealth Rock down, maybe getting off a hit, and then dying. There isn't as much flexibility with these mons as there is with Deoxys-S who can not only lead but also carry an offensive set and it's often unpredictable in team preview. Deoxys-S is already a better lead than the past gen's dedicated leads and on top of that it provides variability with the different supports it can offer as well as offensive capabilities.

 

[Geopolitics]

After continuing to inch toward reqs on the suspect ladder, my opinions have changed. Original thoughts:

Ok, I may get a bit heated when talking about this, so excuse me and do know that I have no intent to be hostile towards any of you in the thread.

Throwin' it back to debate with the flow lol

Contention 1 Deo-S:

-This is the one that from what I understand, is the most 'broken'. Well, in my opinion, it's not broken - it's far from it.
2
-Deo-S is susceptible to literally all priority (which is one reason that Mega Zam was moved to UU - but that conversation is for another thread on another day).

-Many make the argument of versatility being an issue on Deo-S. However, it's fairy obvious, early in the match, which set it is. Plus, you can easily counter lead with pretty much any play style barring stall (HO = BD Azu, Balanced = Scarfer to hit hard b4 screens/hazards). Stall has a bad matchup, but let's be real, pretty much every mon has a good advantage against a certain play style. Just like how Azumarill has a good matchup vs most Balanced, and a combo of generic stall mons (VenuTran) are capable of locking up HO.

-If the argument about 'team support' is made, then I agree - it does provide good Team Support. However, if you mean Hazards/Screens, then I think this point shouldn't be weighed as heavily as others. Defog, which has taken a majority of the meta by storm, can remove all of these in one swift motion. Additionally, if you want to make the arg that this supports the revitalization of BP, then the solution is simple: bring in your setup mon turn 1 as the opponent sets up a screen to cover your best attack. Then use your set up move. Subsequently, they will either have to taunt to stop set up or opt for their second screen - that gives you an opportunity to wreck shop from there.

-Ok I think I've covered most of the args on the Deo-S ban so here's a summary of my stuff: Deo-S is good, and is in the top 10% of OU w/o a doubt. By no means am I saying that it sucks. However, I don't think it is great because of ability to check Team Support, Defog, Priority, Stat Drops w/ powerful moves (which can be manipulated thru predictions)


Contention 2: Deo-D

-Hazard Stacking, the primary arg against Deo-D, is a valid argument. However, Defog solves this. I guarantee many will respond w/ "but bisharp", however, after the peak of DeoSharp, many teams pack ways to beat it. Plus, you can lead w/ an offensive mon, smack it w/ a great hit, and then proceed to limit hazards w/ other means of offense.

-Team Support - cross apply all team support args to here, all of them apply.

-Offensive pressure - Deo-D provides 0 offensive pressure. Only support and hazards. So just hit it turn 1 to limit hazards, or stack them yourself.

-Ok that seems like most args being made, so here is my opinion: don't ban this thing. It's good, but its not Uber worthy. Sure, it's got great bulk and a great support move pool, but everyone knows what to expect on these things. You can counter with a pep of offense turn 1.

I know I'm in the minority here and am wondering if I should even get reqs. I guess I will bc it will make me better, but its honestly pointless at this stage of the game.

Catch ya on the flip flop

My view on Deo-S remains the same - even on the suspect ladder it's just kinda meh. When it makes an appearance, it's not stupendous and it seems like a healthy revenge killer.


However, on Deo-D, I believe that it does need a ban. People are having to counter team the same teach structure (Thund, Lando, Bisharp, Aegi, Deo-D, M-Maw/M-Gya/M-Pin) in order to survive. By using the team I've realized how hard to beat it is. When facing it, I've just said "ah, suck it up Geo. You can do this" as I use a spinner as opposed to defogger. But for defog teams, it sucks to face tbh. I am now in favor of a ban of Deo-D but not Deo-S.

 

[Jaffa Ball]

I'm getting my reqs to vote now, and I thought I should share my opinion on these two.

MY OPINION: Deoxys-Speed should not be banned, Deoxys-Defense should be banned.

Now I've done a fair few battles with both these two, and I would like to address Deoxys-Speed first. The best thing about Deoxys-S is that its versatile, and that its sets are some of the best at what they do. The best sets are the revenge-killer set, and the hazard-setter/screens set. The revenge-killer set, is healthy for the metagame. If Deo-S's revenge-killer set where not healthy for the metagame, than it would be more common. Viable mixed sets are rare in the metagame as it is, and if Deo-S would be banned it would be much rarer and unhealthy for the metagame. Although the set relies on Deo-S always getting then first attack 95 Atk/ 95 Sp.Atk isn't too crash hot. No matter how you look at it, a decent wall (Skarmory/Slowbro), priority, a balanced attacker, decent predictions can beat a Deoxys-S. The hazard set is eclisped entirely by Deoxys-Defense, its MUCH bulkier, and plainly the revenge-killer Deoxys-Speed is much better.

Lets look at a few calculations -
252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 229-273 (95 - 113.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 207-244 (63.8 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 144-170 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- 98.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Slowbro Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-S: 126-150 (52.2 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 160-189 (66.3 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 205-244 (63.2 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

There are three Pokemon that can beat Deoxys-S one-on-one guaranteed. But there are other things that can in the moment beat Deoxys-S. The thing is Deoxys-Speed is good. It's versatility is great, but not broken. There are plenty of things that can kill a Deoxys-Speed, so if Smogon just goes and bans everything that is good, then the purpose of banning the truly broken is mute, the metagame will be TOO warped without threats like Deoxys-Speed. The metagame will be filled with nothing but what people want to fight, and they know they can beat.

Deoxys-Defense is a different story. Unlike its fellow possible bannee, Deoxys-Defense runs one set primarily. Deoxys-Defense has single-handly orchestrated the rise of the suicide lead. Deoxys-Defense just sets up hazards. its 160 Def/160 Sp.Def/90 Speed allows it to almost infallibly get up Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes, if not two. The way it can do this already raises questions but the selling point is Defog + Bisharp. Although Rapid Spin is making a resurgence in Excadrill. But Defog is still more popular, and if Defog is used, with good prediction you can either play mind games with your opponent so that hazards stay up or give your Bisharp a free Swords Dance. For this reason, every single time a Deoxys-Defense hits the field, its going to cause strife for the opponent. I think something classifies as broken when it is able to do what it does (set up hazards) better than anything in OU - which it does - and can do that job every time, and has no great counter for what it does. No common Pokemon can OHKO and outspeed Deoxys-Defense. Lets look at some calcs-

252+ Atk Choice Scarf Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 194-230 (63.8 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-D: 204-240 (67.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 108-128 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Scarf Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 152-180 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-D: 213-252 (70 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Technician Choice Scarf Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 216-254 (71 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Pinsir X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 218-258 (71.7 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-D: 250-296 (82.2 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


The only Pokemon in OU that have the possibility to get a STAB Super-Effective attack off faster than a Deoxys-D can get up rocks and none of them are able to OHKO, these are some of the most powerful attacks in OU, and none of them are able to OHKO a Deoxys-D. So the conclusion is Deoxys-Defense is broken, and things that are broken are unhealthy it SHOULD be banned.

In conclusion -
Deoxys-Speed SHOULD NOT be banned. Regardless of its versatility and revenge-killer abilities it is healthy and beatable by common-threats in OU.
Deoxys-Defense SHOULD be banned. Common threats are unable to OHKO it, and allow it to infallibly set up Stealth Rocks.

 

[MilkyWay]

After continuing to inch toward reqs on the suspect ladder, my opinions have changed. Original thoughts:




My view on Deo-S remains the same - even on the suspect ladder it's just kinda meh. When it makes an appearance, it's not stupendous and it seems like a healthy revenge killer.


However, on Deo-D, I believe that it does need a ban. People are having to counter team the same teach structure (Thund, Lando, Bisharp, Aegi, Deo-D, M-Maw/M-Gya/M-Pin) in order to survive. By using the team I've realized how hard to beat it is. When facing it, I've just said "ah, suck it up Geo. You can do this" as I use a spinner as opposed to defogger. But for defog teams, it sucks to face tbh. I am now in favor of a ban of Deo-D but not Deo-S.

I agree with you for the most part, Deoxys-D is more broken and needs to go. I also think that many of the arguements people make for Deoxys-S being versatile are a bit dramatic, I mean, its not that hard to tell what set its using. For example, if you see a team with deoxys s, scolipede, and espeon, i can almost guarantee you its a dual screener. Likewise if its on a team with Politoed and some swift swimmers then its obviously a suicide lead. I understand that inthese two examples its set is obvious, yet many people constantly talk about dual screen leads on baton pass teams as "unpredictable and versatile." Secondly, its not that hard to figure out its set outside of these teams.

For example, what if you saw this team in team preview? What set do you think it is?

Answer

No shit, its a suicide lead. Didnt see that coming even though its the only thing on this team that learns stealth rock. If you even try and argue that Bisharp has access to Stealth Rock your honestly retarded
[\hide]

Even if there was a lando on this team or a tyranitar it still wouldnt be that hard to figure out. If they lead off with their lando and put down stealth rock, mystery solved. If they are mysteriously saving their doexys s for late game it shouldnt be too hard to guess that its the life orb revenge killer. Even if the team with Tyranitar and Lando leads off with Deoxys S, it shouldnt be a crime that you dont know which one it is. Honestly if you want to complain about 50/50s think about Kings Shield Aegilash, Charizard, or Sucker Punch Mawile. The reason why I believe that Deoxys S is broken is not because of its versatility, but because of its ability as a suicide lead. As a suicide hazard lead its only slightly inferior to Deoxys D. It can easily set up multiple layers of hazards like Deo D, thus ensuring that you almost always get your moneys worth when using it. The second Deoxys D get banned Deoxys S would replace it and do its job almost as well. This enough is why it should be banned as well. Ban both Deoxys-D and Deoxys-S

 

[Ninja Charizard]

I'm getting my reqs to vote now, and I thought I should share my opinion on these two.
There are three Pokemon that can beat Deoxys-S one-on-one guaranteed. But there are other things that can in the moment beat Deoxys-S. The thing is Deoxys-Speed is good. It's versatility is great, but not broken. There are plenty of things that can kill a Deoxys-Speed, so if Smogon just goes and bans everything that is good, then the purpose of banning the truly broken is mute, there will be Pokemon like Deoxys-Speed, that will hardly get a use in Ubers and are banned by OU. That is not fair, and that will happen if we ban Deoxys-Speed.

Examples please.

Also usage means jack shit to whether pokemon should be banned or not.

And usage in Ubers means even less. Deoxys-N has zero usage in Ubers, for example.

 

[Jaffa Ball]

Examples please.

Also usage means jack shit to whether pokemon should be banned or not.

And usage in Ubers means even less. Deoxys-N has zero usage in Ubers, for example.

Examples were in my Deoxys-S calculations, three common Pokemon that can defeat it, but depending on your team, if its built properly (i.e With Priority) you can defeat a Deoxys-S. I didn't use usage as an argument, I just said we should consider that if people aren't going to consider to use the banned Pokemon in Ubers, than it isn't broken. Broken Pokemon like M-Kangaskhan/M-Lucario/Genesect where banned from OU and are used in Uber, because they are broken Pokemon. Deoxys-N is eclipsed by ALL of its other formes, but is still too good for OU. Deoxys-S is healthy as a mixed attacker, and is the most versatile of the four Deoxys formes, but this doesn't mean its broken because its frail and weak to priority. Deoxys-N although it is contradictory to my argument, will never be properly placed it doesn't have a place in OU and Uber. Deoxys-S is different it does have a place. in OU.

 

[KztxL7]

No one gives two shits about how well something does in Ubers when potentially banning something from OU.

And just because I know that at some point someone might bring it up again:

No one gives two shits about how well something does in Ubers when potentially banning somehing from OU.

Never bring it up at any point for suspect or even quick banning arguments.

I'm going to throw my hat in the ring for banning both as well. The reality is that both are just so great at what they do its amazing and in the case of Deoxys-S, what it chooses to do. The synergy between Deoxys(in particular Defense)+Defiant User+Aegislash is too ridiculous in that it oppresses other non-offensive based playstyles too greatly. When you sit down and ask youself "Wait, why am I not just using Deoxys" for whatever role you want it to do because it does those roles near-perfect to perfect in so many teams there is a problem.

 

[Jaffa Ball]

I agree with you for the most part, Deoxys-D is more broken and needs to go. I also think that many of the arguements people make for Deoxys-S being versatile are a bit dramatic, I mean, its not that hard to tell what set its using. For example, if you see a team with deoxys s, scolipede, and espeon, i can almost guarantee you its a dual screener. Likewise if its on a team with Politoed and some swift swimmers then its obviously a suicide lead. I understand that inthese two examples its set is obvious, yet many people constantly talk about dual screen leads on baton pass teams as "unpredictable and versatile." Secondly, its not that hard to figure out its set outside of these teams.

For example, what if you saw this team in team preview? What set do you think it is?

Answer

No shit, its a suicide lead. Didnt see that coming even though its the only thing on this team that learns stealth rock. If you even try and argue that Bisharp has access to Stealth Rock your honestly retarded
[\hide]

Even if there was a lando on this team or a tyranitar it still wouldnt be that hard to figure out. If they lead off with their lando and put down stealth rock, mystery solved. If they are mysteriously saving their doexys s for late game it shouldnt be too hard to guess that its the life orb revenge killer. Even if the team with Tyranitar and Lando leads off with Deoxys S, it shouldnt be a crime that you dont know which one it is. Honestly if you want to complain about 50/50s think about Kings Shield Aegilash, Charizard, or Sucker Punch Mawile. The reason why I believe that Deoxys S is broken is not because of its versatility, but because of its ability as a suicide lead. As a suicide hazard lead its only slightly inferior to Deoxys D. It can easily set up multiple layers of hazards like Deo D, thus ensuring that you almost always get your moneys worth when using it. The second Deoxys D get banned Deoxys S would replace it and do its job almost as well. This enough is why it should be banned as well. Ban both Deoxys-D and Deoxys-S

I really don't see how your argument helps to ban Deoxys-S? You spend quite a lot of time telling us why its not versatile, which helps to keep it UN-BANNED, because versatility is dangerous. Then you say its broken because its a great suicide lead. You even say yourself Deoxys-Defense is better. The difference though is NO Pokemon in OU is able to outspeed and OHKO Deoxys-Defense, which leads it in most situations to get up Stealth Rocks and at least a layer of Spikes. Deoxys-Speed is easily OHKO/2HKO'd which means at most it will get off Stealth Rocks. So the metagame is now banning every Pokemon with 3 good, viable sets + Ability to safely get off Stealth Rocks in one/two of those sets... Seems a bit of an over-reaction to ban that.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

I'm pretty certain both are easily ban worthy, and that they will be banned, but I feel the need to rehash some arguments because people are forgetting things.

Deo-S needs to be banned because all of its sets are flat out amazing and can make a team on their own, but the issue is the same as MegaLuke and even Genesect; you can have checks to some of its sets, but if you guess wrong, you're screwed.

Deo-D turns the meta into HO central.

Now, that alone wasn't enough to ban it imo, so I went in not taking it seriously, and got myself screwed. I had to switch teams 3 times to find a team decent against the HO centered meta while still being one I'd actually use in real games (in hind sight, sand was obvious, but I was stubborn). I expected to qualify today, but while I have D down to a tee, I still get screwed by S because even when I handle it right, it's so hard to pin down; anything that can check it can't keep it from switching, and anything that can keep it from switching is vulnerable to it's attacks (Gee, that's exactly what I said about Genesect)

None of this is that telling, because I'm just a guy on a rant, so here's some responses and calcs:

I'm getting my reqs to vote now, and I thought I should share my opinion on these two.

MY OPINION: Deoxys-Speed should not be banned, Deoxys-Defense should be banned.

Now I've done a fair few battles with both these two, and I would like to address Deoxys-Speed first. The best thing about Deoxys-S is that its versatile, and that its sets are some of the best at what they do. The best sets are the revenge-killer set, and the hazard-setter/screens set. The revenge-killer set, is healthy for the metagame. If Deo-S's revenge-killer set where not healthy for the metagame, than it would be more common. Viable mixed sets are rare in the metagame as it is, and if Deo-S would be banned it would be much rarer and unhealthy for the metagame. Although the set relies on Deo-S always getting then first attack 95 Atk/ 95 Sp.Atk isn't too crash hot. No matter how you look at it, a decent wall (Skarmory/Slowbro), priority, a balanced attacker, decent predictions can beat a Deoxys-S. The hazard set is eclisped entirely by Deoxys-Defense, its MUCH bulkier, and plainly the revenge-killer Deoxys-Speed is much better.

Lets look at a few calculations -
252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 229-273 (95 - 113.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 207-244 (63.8 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 144-170 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- 98.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Slowbro Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-S: 126-150 (52.2 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 160-189 (66.3 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 205-244 (63.2 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

There are three Pokemon that can beat Deoxys-S one-on-one guaranteed. But there are other things that can in the moment beat Deoxys-S. The thing is Deoxys-Speed is good. It's versatility is great, but not broken. There are plenty of things that can kill a Deoxys-Speed, so if Smogon just goes and bans everything that is good, then the purpose of banning the truly broken is mute, the metagame will be TOO warped without threats like Deoxys-Speed. The metagame will be filled with nothing but what people want to fight, and they know they can beat.

Deoxys-Defense is a different story. Unlike its fellow possible bannee, Deoxys-Defense runs one set primarily. Deoxys-Defense has single-handly orchestrated the rise of the suicide lead. Deoxys-Defense just sets up hazards. its 160 Def/160 Sp.Def/90 Speed allows it to almost infallibly get up Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes, if not two. The way it can do this already raises questions but the selling point is Defog + Bisharp. Although Rapid Spin is making a resurgence in Excadrill. But Defog is still more popular, and if Defog is used, with good prediction you can either play mind games with your opponent so that hazards stay up or give your Bisharp a free Swords Dance. For this reason, every single time a Deoxys-Defense hits the field, its going to cause strife for the opponent. I think something classifies as broken when it is able to do what it does (set up hazards) better than anything in OU - which it does - and can do that job every time, and has no great counter for what it does. No common Pokemon can OHKO and outspeed Deoxys-Defense. Lets look at some calcs-

252+ Atk Choice Scarf Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 194-230 (63.8 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-D: 204-240 (67.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 108-128 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Scarf Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 152-180 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-D: 213-252 (70 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Technician Choice Scarf Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 216-254 (71 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Pinsir X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 218-258 (71.7 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-D: 250-296 (82.2 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


The only Pokemon in OU that have the possibility to get a STAB Super-Effective attack off faster than a Deoxys-D can get up rocks and none of them are able to OHKO, these are some of the most powerful attacks in OU, and none of them are able to OHKO a Deoxys-D. So the conclusion is Deoxys-Defense is broken, and things that are broken are unhealthy it SHOULD be banned.

In conclusion -
Deoxys-Speed SHOULD NOT be banned. Regardless of its versatility and revenge-killer abilities it is healthy and beatable by common-threats in OU.
Deoxys-Defense SHOULD be banned. Common threats are unable to OHKO it, and allow it to infallibly set up Stealth Rocks.

For your Deo-S calcs, I'm going to ignore Bandnite because Deo is commonly on HO, which usually has rocks, which breaks multiscale, but if I were to notice it, I'd point out that revenge killing a revenge killer doesn't hurt its brokenness. If my dragon tries to switch in, it'll break Multiscale, and be KO'd by ice beam, only dealing 3/4 damage, not enough, because that means 2 more free attacks.

Slowbro, sure, but there's not a shortage of mons that can switch into 'bro to save him.

As for Aegislash, who uses 252+ atk? When I put in my standard set, I got this:

4 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 174-211 (72.1 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You probably still force him out, and if you pursuit, have a 81% chance to OHKO, but it's hardly reliable and knock off is definitely a thing you have to worry about

The "one-on-one" match ups don't matter much. Of those 3, only Aegislash is all that relevant, and he doesn't get the job done against dual screens unless you can confidently switch in on the light screen, get him to stay in, and get a shadow sneak off for a OHKO that only has a 1/64 chance of happening

4 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-S on a critical hit: 265-315 (87.1 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Yeah, I'm still solidly for a deo-S ban, the mention of uber performance just gave me the motivation to find things wrong with your argument.

Speaking of which:

And just because I know that at some point someone might bring it up again:

I believe you mean at some point somebody will bring it up again :(

 

[Jarrod]

If any one of these pokemon is deemed banworthy, then both should be banned. Ultimately the community seems to believe that the hazard setting abilities and HO support provided by any of the Deos creates and unbalanced metagame. If one form is banned, the other will surely take its place and simply be banned next round. Let's save ourselves some time and ban both.

 

[Mr.378]

Right, because I have been having bad technical issues it seems as if I will not be able to complete the suspect and get the proper requirements. So I will just post my final thoughts on the two Deoxys forms below.

The two Deoxys forms, as others have said before, really are the best support and are some of the most diverse pokemon in the game right now. To the point where they are meta-warping as a result. The free hazards, among other things, that they can provide are done so efficiently that they can effectively fulfill their roles as leads regardless of what leads ones opponent may have, unless they have a dedicated hard counter as a lead. These are usually so predictable and easy to play around that they are trivial. It is because of this that I believe that both forms should be banned. At the same time it goes further then that, as both forms uniquely have something about them that make them ban worthy.

First there is Deoxys-D which is the one of the two I seem to be seeing more of. It is more linear in what it can do then Deoxys-S, as it having less speed than it allows it less in what it can do. But the massive bulk advantage it does have allows it do accomplish it niches more efficiently than its counterpart. It is easily the best hazard setter in the game, because its bulk allows it to take attacks and shrug all but powerful super effective hits or the most powerful attacks in the tier suck as Landorus-I's Earth Power, which can 2 hit KO if Special Defense EVs are forgone. Its bulk also allows it to forgo the focus sash that is found on most other entry hazard or suicide leads and enables it to play mind games. Most commonly the Mental Herb is used to negate taunt make it near unstoppable at setting Stealth Rock, but the Red Card can end sweeps prematurely and the Rocky Helmet can punish the opponent for attacking Deoxys-D. It also has a great diversity in its fourth moveslot, from thunder wave to cripple opposing pokemon to superpower to remove any bisharps that it may come across. While Deoxys-D is usually relegated to hazard setter on hyper offensive teams, it is so effective in what it does and has enough diversity in both the moves it can use and its item that it makes it overpowering.

In terms of counter measures, most players just use a pokemon that can hit it hard to minimize the hazards Deoxys-D can set, Aegislash, Bisharp, and Landorus-I seeming like the most common. This is unreliable because there is nothing stopping the player using Deoxys-D to just switch out into a check/counter to the attacker and set hazards later. Bisharp is an even worse idea because, as said before, as Deoxys-D can use superpower and turn the game into a 6-5 on turn one. Magic Coat can be used on a number of pokemon, but that it an inherently passive play that can be taken advantage of. Magic coat user are even worse in that regard because of how predictable that are. The best way do deal with Deoxys-S, other then using something dedicated to anti-leading it, is to minimalize the hazards it can set and get rid of them when it is dead. While using defog may be a passive play that opens the door for Bisharp to come in and get a deviant boost, it is not really that much of a power play as it may seem. Because switching in Bisharp to an obvious defog user is even more predictable than using defog itself, and iit cannot actually do too much to some of the more common defog users and just get phased or killed most of the time. All things considered, even with these possible counter measures, Deoxys-D is still too good of a hazard setter and a lead for OU. It is overpowering in its limited amount of counter measures, and degenerate in how it can ignore all but the most dedicated of those counter measures. Therefore, I believe Deoxys-D should be sent to ubers.

Deoxys-S on the other hand is not as good a hazard lead on offensive teams as Deoxys-D, but is better at a number of tasks. It being the fastest pokemon in the game allows it to fill a significant number of niches. It can lay screens for teams that greatly appreciate them such as the new baton pass team, which its speed is important as it allows it to lay both screens and possibly stealth rock. It can start weather up for rain teams, which it is the best at for the same reason it is such a good duel screen user. It can also be the best anti lead in the game by using its vast support and offensive move pool to counter whatever lead needs to be countered. It can also use its tremendous speed, vast movepool, and decent offensive stats to be one of the best revenge killers in the game. Because of its diversity, it is harder to check and counter than Deoxys-D, as it can usually accomplish whatever task it needs to regardless of what the opponent may lead or send out against it. As a result, while it usually has a different task than Deoxys-D, it is ban worthy for the same reasons, and should also be sent to ubers.

Both Deoxys forms allow for degenerate play styles to flourish, such as Deosharp and the new baton pass teams. While sending them to ubers may not solve some of the problems these play styles existing bring to the metagame it will go a long way. Removing the two Deoxys forms from OU will greatly aid towards it becoming a better tier. They are the best support pokemon in the game right now, to a degree where they are degenerate and overpowered. Removing them will at the very least do something about most of the problems OU has as a tier right now.

 

[Reverb]

I just made the reqs, and, after playing approximately 100 battles, I have concluded that both Deoxys-D and Deoxys-S are broken. My reasoning rests on the realization that it is damn near impossible to stop your opponent from getting up several layers of hazards. Virtually no Pokemon can OHKO Deoxys-D, and, with the right EV spread, Deoxys-S is more than capable of tanking hits. Generally, Deo-D/S are able to get up Stealth Rock and one layer of Spikes. After the opponent KOs Deoxys, one can send in a Pokemon that will have an edge on the opponent. Generally, the opponent is all but forced to switch. In the end, they are often forced to sacrifice a Pokemon in order to Defog. Defogging is imperative because without using Defog, the Deoxys user will be able to continuously apply offensive pressure as entry hazards wear you down. Thanks to Bisharp, and its trademark move, Defiant, you'll often have to give it a +2 boost in order to remove hazards. At +2, virtually nothing can switch into Bisharp. The situation I described is all but forced when one uses Deoxys. Hence, I believe that it is in the game's best interest for us to ban both Deoxys-D and Deoxys-S.