Rotosect
Banned deucer.
You run 252+ speed on Deo-D to outspeed opposing Deo-D's and Taunt them before they do.
If you run Magic Coat then 252+ isn't necessary, otherwise it's an absolute must.
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np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Alienation of the Wretched
- Thread starter Nachos
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If you run Magic Coat then 252+ isn't necessary, otherwise it's an absolute must.
Deo-D speed ties are stupid as fuck and if you want to rely on winning a Speed tie to get the upper hand on offense vs offense games then good luck. Not to mention that the best item on Deo-D is Mental Herb anyway, which allows you to get at least one hazard against opposing max Speed Deo-D. I prefer having Pokemon that can limit Deo-D to one layer of hazards against opposing offensive teams or take advantage of its presence, such as Garchomp, Thundurus, mixed Aegislash, Knock Off Landorus, and LO Scolipede.
I'm far from the best player on the ladder and am not even close to making requirements at this point, but I've seen enough battles and evidence to conclude that both Deoxys formes should be banned. Even when I lead against Deoxys-D or Deoxys-S with Knock Off Landorus-I and limit either to just Stealth Rock, getting it off the field is a pain in the ass. Of course, this assumes that Deoxys-S doesn't instead decide to nuke Landorus-I with a LO-boosted Psycho Boost or Ice Beam:
0 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 4 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 253-298 (79 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 437-515 (136.5 - 160.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Excadrill is generally considered the best spinner in the tier, yet its frailty makes it relatively simple for offensive teams to prevent it from performing that role. Bisharp, which is Deoxys' most common partner, takes a large chunk of Excadrill's health away even with an unboosted Sucker Punch, which often forces me to choose between KOing it with Earthquake or sacrificing Excadrill's longevity to spin away the hazards so that the rest of my team doesn't get worn down. This doesn't even get into the dual screens Deoxys-S set that many people in this thread claim is the best set.
The best way to prevent an opponent from getting hazards or screens up is to threaten the setter out with something that can KO it and stop it from setting up in the first place. However, as many in this thread have already implied, this is virtually impossible against either Deoxys-D or Deoxys-S. Considering the sheer amount of offensive pressure and momentum that both formes can indirectly provide with almost no risk, I consider neither Deoxys-D nor Deoxys-S to be healthy presences in the OU metagame.
0 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 4 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 253-298 (79 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 437-515 (136.5 - 160.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Excadrill is generally considered the best spinner in the tier, yet its frailty makes it relatively simple for offensive teams to prevent it from performing that role. Bisharp, which is Deoxys' most common partner, takes a large chunk of Excadrill's health away even with an unboosted Sucker Punch, which often forces me to choose between KOing it with Earthquake or sacrificing Excadrill's longevity to spin away the hazards so that the rest of my team doesn't get worn down. This doesn't even get into the dual screens Deoxys-S set that many people in this thread claim is the best set.
The best way to prevent an opponent from getting hazards or screens up is to threaten the setter out with something that can KO it and stop it from setting up in the first place. However, as many in this thread have already implied, this is virtually impossible against either Deoxys-D or Deoxys-S. Considering the sheer amount of offensive pressure and momentum that both formes can indirectly provide with almost no risk, I consider neither Deoxys-D nor Deoxys-S to be healthy presences in the OU metagame.
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I got request recently, here some thought after laddering.
If I had some doubt about the Defensive form, now I can say that he deserves the ban too, Mental herb allows him to set up basically on everything, with some investment in attack he can baitkills Bisharp (no one will ever Sucker Punch on it) and Mirror Coat set also kills Aegislash, while Thunder wave set allows it to set up hazards on each Defogger except max speed Zapdos (That I honestly never seen). Both Deoxys version make this an unhealtly metagame, where skill matters less and less, and where even a novice player can build a Deo-Sharp+priority spam team or a Dual Screener+5 sweepers and win thanks a good matchup. The incredible versatility of these pokemon and their infinite possibility set is what makes them broken as fuck, not counting the fact that they add 50/50 scenarios in a metagame where there are already too many.
If I had some doubt about the Defensive form, now I can say that he deserves the ban too, Mental herb allows him to set up basically on everything, with some investment in attack he can baitkills Bisharp (no one will ever Sucker Punch on it) and Mirror Coat set also kills Aegislash, while Thunder wave set allows it to set up hazards on each Defogger except max speed Zapdos (That I honestly never seen). Both Deoxys version make this an unhealtly metagame, where skill matters less and less, and where even a novice player can build a Deo-Sharp+priority spam team or a Dual Screener+5 sweepers and win thanks a good matchup. The incredible versatility of these pokemon and their infinite possibility set is what makes them broken as fuck, not counting the fact that they add 50/50 scenarios in a metagame where there are already too many.
English is not my native language, so I hope you can forgive my mistakes :D
My opinion on both Deoxys forms is:
Deoxys-D:
I have nothing to add here. It is overcentralizing the meta, especially HO. BAN
Deoxys-S:
I'm not quite convinced about this guy. The hazard-set is like Deoxys-D and the revenge-killer is strong, but you can handle it.
Everybody is talking about how broken the dual-screen-set is. I would like to know why this is broken. Dual-screening is nothing new and Klefki can do that too. It has not as much bulk as Deoxys-S, but a better defensive typing and access to Prankster-Thunderwave. Deoxys has only Stealth Rock, Knock Off and Psycho-Boost and without a LO it's not that strong. Am I missing something? Many people also complain about the new Baton-Pass-Team with Deoxys-S and I don't see how a ban of Deoxys-S would make it better, because you can just replace it with Klefki.
I would like to see replays or a good explanation why Deoxys-S is a so much better Dual-Screener than Klefki (who doesn't fear Thunderwave btw).
For now I would ban Deoxys-S too, because it would just replace Deoxys-D. Banning only Deoxys-D would not achieve much.
My opinion on both Deoxys forms is:
Deoxys-D:
I have nothing to add here. It is overcentralizing the meta, especially HO. BAN
Deoxys-S:
I'm not quite convinced about this guy. The hazard-set is like Deoxys-D and the revenge-killer is strong, but you can handle it.
Everybody is talking about how broken the dual-screen-set is. I would like to know why this is broken. Dual-screening is nothing new and Klefki can do that too. It has not as much bulk as Deoxys-S, but a better defensive typing and access to Prankster-Thunderwave. Deoxys has only Stealth Rock, Knock Off and Psycho-Boost and without a LO it's not that strong. Am I missing something? Many people also complain about the new Baton-Pass-Team with Deoxys-S and I don't see how a ban of Deoxys-S would make it better, because you can just replace it with Klefki.
I would like to see replays or a good explanation why Deoxys-S is a so much better Dual-Screener than Klefki (who doesn't fear Thunderwave btw).
For now I would ban Deoxys-S too, because it would just replace Deoxys-D. Banning only Deoxys-D would not achieve much.
As previously mentioned, klefki doesn't get taunt which means the screens and spikes can get defogged whenever, and he can't force the opponent to attack so either the screens can get stalled out or klefki has to hard switch which is risky and loses momentum.
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Thanks, the point with Taunt makes sense indeed :D
The second part with "hardswitching" though I disagree. When I'm using Deoxys-S as Dual-Screener I have to hard switch too, otherwise it dies easily. It has not the power to strike back (except if you switch Taunt or Stealth Rock for an attacking move, which you normally shouldn't) and if I want to have late-game screens I still have to switch to a setup-sweeper (or whatever I want to).
His only real advantage over Klefki is Stealth Rock and Taunt. Especially Taunt since it prevents Defog and setup-sweepers.
I will make more battles to test this further, but if nothing miraculous happens I will stick to my point.
The idea is usually to have it die, that way your set up sweeper gets a free switch in.
Those are pretty big advantages
Also Besides Screens set DeoS is a good LO attacker
I don't like to let my screener die. If my opponent manages to kill my first setupper I would like to keep the screener for later. Screen-Suicide never worked that well for me. I tried it on the suspect ladder and it failed. Screen and Switch worked way better. Maybe because everybody is overprepared and they don't really expect a switch-out.
I already mention the Revenge-Killer and from what I saw up until now I think we can handle it. Most people run Dual-Screener or Hazard-Leads so I didn't see that many LO-Sets.
Until I make reqs I will probably run into some and be able to make a better opinion about them.
Deoxys-S seems to have a similar problem to Mega Lucario. Sableye countered the phyiscal set while Clefable countered special sets without Flash Cannon, and Aegislash countered sets without Dark Pulse. Every Mega Lucario set had its counters, but you never know which one it will be, and not a single pokemon can come close to checking both sets (physical and special.) Every Deoxys-S set has its counters, but by the time you find out which set it is, it's often too late and Deo-S has already done it's job. Not to mention the sheer versatility of Deo-S, it has so many damn viable sets including but not limited to Anti Lead, Hazard Setter, Dual Screens, LO Revenge Killer. As a result of this, a single pokemon can never check every possible option Deo-S can run.
Tl;dr Ban Deo-s, its got too many sets and no one pokemon can check all of them
Tl;dr Ban Deo-s, its got too many sets and no one pokemon can check all of them
I don't have a lot of experience playing OU in case the awful plays I made while getting the reqs didn't make that evident enough, so I went into the suspect more or less a fresh slate. Regardless of my lack of experience, I entirely agree with many of the previously stated pro-banning arguments for both Deoxys formes. Deoxys-D is difficult to stop from performing an extremely influential role in setting up hazards quickly and efficiently, drastically hindering teams that don't have specific strategies designed to defeat it, and is still able to usually pull its weight as a hazard setter against teams that do with a bit of team support, significantly and unfavourably decreasing variety in the metagame. I think Deoxys-S is comparable to the recently banned Froslass from RU due to its high speed and access to Taunt and numerous support options, but actually has the edge due to its greater versatility, courtesy of its more diverse supportive movepool, most notably containing Dual Screens and Stealth Rock, and its ability to viably run a wholly offensive set, which requires different methods to deal with than supportive sets; of course, RU and OU are different tiers with different threats that have to be dealt with, and Froslass had its own advantages, but I don't see a huge number of notable aspects that make OU less friendly toward such a role than RU (there might be a few), so I still feel as if it's a notable comparison. For both formes, I think the popularity, structural rigidity and effectiveness of teams utilizing one of them should speak for themselves.
ShootingStarmie scares me
ShootingStarmie scares me
Even on this suspect ladder where everyone is well-prepared for the Deos, they ran absolutely rampant. They were on near every team, and still succeeded. It seems in both cases that they are indeed stoppable. The problem lies in a few factors:
1) For many pokémon who can stop them, the Deos will be eliminated but can achieve their goal before falling, whether their goal be hazards, screens, crippling with T-Wave, or denting the opposing team.
2) Many of the threats that can stop one Deoxys form find themselves unable to stop the other. Garchomp is able to limit Deo-D to one layer of hazards, but is wasted by an Ice Beam from Deo-S. Mega Heracross OHKOes Deo-D but is taken down in one fell swoop from Deo-S.
3) Flexibility in movesets gives the ability to counter strategies commonly used to deal with the aliens. Bring a Terrakion to outspeed the Deo-D? SR and Taunt can both be reflected by a Magic Coat. Stone Edge can usually 3hko, but this still lets Deo paralyze you or set up multiple layers of hazards. (This 3hko happens if you happen to hit SE 3 times, given only four chances due to Deo's Pressure).
The ubiquity of Heavy Offense strikes me as troubling for the metagame, and the Deoxys brothers are the primary enablers. Both hazards and screens are huge for HO teams and at the moment they are just too easy to set up. Hazards and screens can be removed but these teams usually have methods of pressuring common removers. Taking turns to remove these can give a crucial turn to a setup sweeper. Often, the chance to remove isn't even granted if the HO team has pokés strong and fast enough to take out the spinner/defogger. Obviously hazards and screens will still exist and be used by many pokémon, but they will be much less centralizing and unpredictable. I imagine the biggest thing a ban on these two would bring is diversity. Diversity in hazard setters and screeners, as well as diversity in team styles as Balance and Stall will be a bit more effective, while HO will certainly still be effective. I'll be voting to Ban Both Forms.
1) For many pokémon who can stop them, the Deos will be eliminated but can achieve their goal before falling, whether their goal be hazards, screens, crippling with T-Wave, or denting the opposing team.
2) Many of the threats that can stop one Deoxys form find themselves unable to stop the other. Garchomp is able to limit Deo-D to one layer of hazards, but is wasted by an Ice Beam from Deo-S. Mega Heracross OHKOes Deo-D but is taken down in one fell swoop from Deo-S.
3) Flexibility in movesets gives the ability to counter strategies commonly used to deal with the aliens. Bring a Terrakion to outspeed the Deo-D? SR and Taunt can both be reflected by a Magic Coat. Stone Edge can usually 3hko, but this still lets Deo paralyze you or set up multiple layers of hazards. (This 3hko happens if you happen to hit SE 3 times, given only four chances due to Deo's Pressure).
The ubiquity of Heavy Offense strikes me as troubling for the metagame, and the Deoxys brothers are the primary enablers. Both hazards and screens are huge for HO teams and at the moment they are just too easy to set up. Hazards and screens can be removed but these teams usually have methods of pressuring common removers. Taking turns to remove these can give a crucial turn to a setup sweeper. Often, the chance to remove isn't even granted if the HO team has pokés strong and fast enough to take out the spinner/defogger. Obviously hazards and screens will still exist and be used by many pokémon, but they will be much less centralizing and unpredictable. I imagine the biggest thing a ban on these two would bring is diversity. Diversity in hazard setters and screeners, as well as diversity in team styles as Balance and Stall will be a bit more effective, while HO will certainly still be effective. I'll be voting to Ban Both Forms.
HBK
Subtlety is my middle name
Running max speed on Deoxys-D is not as ridiculous as you think. Even with no defensive investment except for 252 evs of hp, it's still quite bulky and the investment in speed enables it to ensure that some set up sweepers/hazard setters/substitute users can't set up on it. A pokemon behind a substitute is an HO teams worst nightmare as their team members tend to have short life spans and if they die trying to break a substitute i.e without killing or weakening at least one pokemon, the player may end up losing. The list of pokemon that Deoxys-D can prevent from setting up includes Landorus-T(most don't run max speed unless they're scarfed), Dragonite, Gliscor, Tyranitar(Mega or non Mega), Charizard-X, Pinsir, Mawile, Gyarados, etc.
Let me address each of those Pokemon specifically. Dragonite, Mawile, regular Tyranitar, and Gyarados are all outrun with the EV spread that i mentioned, so no need for max Speed there. Against Mega Charizard X you want to use Thunder Wave to cripple it no matter what, so getting outsped makes no difference. Same with Pinsir and Mega Tyranitar, T-Wave on turn one is the best option (Crunch can't OHKO, so a paralyzed Mega Ttar + SR is a great trade off for losing Deo-D). So the only case where max Speed Deo-D matters is against SubToxic Gliscor, which still gets set up on and potentially Taunted, and there are many Pokemon able to take advantage of SubToxic Gliscor on offensive teams after Deo-D dies, such as Air Balloon Aegislash, Air Balloon Excadrill, Gengar, Mega Gardevoir, Sub / Taunt Thundurus, and Icicle Spear Mamoswine. The max Speed also matters against max Speed Landorus-T, but this is a very rare set.
I am not saying that running max Speed doesn't have its merits, but it's not worth to be the most used spread when Deo-D can accomplish so much more with some extra bulk. Many people just aren't making the fullest out of their Deo-D when teambuilding, when in reality Deo-D can perform even better.
Finally got reqs on OU ladder (for safe keeping http://puu.sh/9OZIY/5dfe47a7e0.jpg).
As for my opinions on the suspect, I'll make this short and sweet. Ban Deoxys-S, and ban Deoxys-D
Deoxys-S I think is extremely unhealthy for the metagame. It's a very unpredictable Pokemon, as it can run a multitude of sets, including Dual Screens, LO, and Hazards setter, as well as filling other niche roles like supporting Rain teams with it's quick Rain Dance. Every set is checked completely differently, and it's very hard to predict what set it's going to run. Overall I think it's speed, coverage, and incredible ability to run different sets so effectively are what make it broken.
Deoxys-D Is almost guaranteed SR + one layers of Spikes, and often get full hazards up due to it's fast Taunt and great bulk. I think the worst thing about Deoxys-D however is that it can run specific moves to actually beat it's own checks, like Super Power for Bisharp, and Magic Coat for Aegislash. Overall I really don't like the fact that the metagame is based around Deoxys + Bisharp teams, as it really restricts team building in OU.
As for my opinions on the suspect, I'll make this short and sweet. Ban Deoxys-S, and ban Deoxys-D
Deoxys-S I think is extremely unhealthy for the metagame. It's a very unpredictable Pokemon, as it can run a multitude of sets, including Dual Screens, LO, and Hazards setter, as well as filling other niche roles like supporting Rain teams with it's quick Rain Dance. Every set is checked completely differently, and it's very hard to predict what set it's going to run. Overall I think it's speed, coverage, and incredible ability to run different sets so effectively are what make it broken.
Deoxys-D Is almost guaranteed SR + one layers of Spikes, and often get full hazards up due to it's fast Taunt and great bulk. I think the worst thing about Deoxys-D however is that it can run specific moves to actually beat it's own checks, like Super Power for Bisharp, and Magic Coat for Aegislash. Overall I really don't like the fact that the metagame is based around Deoxys + Bisharp teams, as it really restricts team building in OU.
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My thoughts on the matter
Deoxys S- Deoxys S is broken for the meta game. It can set up stealth rocks spikes light screens quickly and its bulk is underrated. It also might be the best mixed sweeper right now because it can get away with running little to no speed evs because it is so fast. Deoxys S is definitely worthy of the Ban Hammer.
Deoxys D- I feel Deoxys D is good, but not broken. The thing it does best is set up stealth rocks and spikes which is completely stopped by magic bounce pokemon. Unless Deoxys D has skill swap magic. Then also there is defog. Although Bisharp can make you think twice about defogging, it really can not take a hit from a majority of defoggers. Also Deoxys D has taunt to stop defoggers, but things like latios and latias are faster and can beat the taunt Then finally there is rapid spin to deal with it. Although there is ghosts to block rapid spin, the best rapid spin blocker in OU is Trevenant, and Trevenant does not have synergy with Deoxys D. So I believe that deoxys D is annoying to deal with, but is not broken.
Deoxys S- Deoxys S is broken for the meta game. It can set up stealth rocks spikes light screens quickly and its bulk is underrated. It also might be the best mixed sweeper right now because it can get away with running little to no speed evs because it is so fast. Deoxys S is definitely worthy of the Ban Hammer.
Deoxys D- I feel Deoxys D is good, but not broken. The thing it does best is set up stealth rocks and spikes which is completely stopped by magic bounce pokemon. Unless Deoxys D has skill swap magic. Then also there is defog. Although Bisharp can make you think twice about defogging, it really can not take a hit from a majority of defoggers. Also Deoxys D has taunt to stop defoggers, but things like latios and latias are faster and can beat the taunt Then finally there is rapid spin to deal with it. Although there is ghosts to block rapid spin, the best rapid spin blocker in OU is Trevenant, and Trevenant does not have synergy with Deoxys D. So I believe that deoxys D is annoying to deal with, but is not broken.
I feel like your deo-d argument is a bit incorrect.
First off, t-wave is pretty common, so you can just t-wave lati@s first turn as they maybe attack, set hazards as they may switch or stay in and defog, and then since they are slower, you can taunt them there and set hazards again.
A lot of magic bounce mons are total shit and rare, so its not really anything to worry about. Besides, its obvious that they are gonna lead with said magic bouncer so you can just lead with something that kills them (and a fuck ton of things can kill mega absol and espeon lol)
Also, da bes spinblocker in the tier is gourgeist-small, trevenant sorta sucks :I Keldeo is bulkier than it for crying out loud.
Fair points, although I would challenge a few with regards to Deoxys-D. While Taunt and Bisharp are effective for dealing with Defoggers, they can be played around as you said. Despite this, HO can often run pokés that can pressure and force out Defoggers. Say the HO player expects a Defogger to come in. They can send out their Greninja perhaps, who can OHKO standard Latias, Latios, Mandibuzz and Zapdos after rocks, as well as have a ~45% chance to OHKO Skarm after rocks. Also, the best spin blocker in OU is certainly not Trevenant. Nearly all Deosharp teams present on the ladder carried Balloon Aegislash as their spinblocker as it shuts down Excadrill.
got to #1 on suspect ladder using this team http://pastebin.com/t3SzbMcD
i really dont think either deoxys are broken tbh.
deo-d is always hazard stacking and the only other utility it offers is red carding out something behind a sub or a new bp chain. sometimes I wish I had just used a sash sr mon like garchomp that would actually trade blows with the opponent when i really needed it. also im required to run magic coat on this thing because then I can run enough defence to live bisharp knockoff among other things. not running magic coat is just asking to lose deo-d vs deo-d lead matchups which i encountered a lot of on the ladder. i had to use taunt in the 4th slot to ensure i wasnt set up fodder for stuff like mega-maw and sd bisharp. i just dont think its really as versaitile as people claim.
the only 2 deo-s sets i saw on ladder were dual screens and 3 att life orb. dual screens is a bit annoying but i think 3 att lo only seemed broken to begin with because it caught people offguard when usually all deo-s did was lead with hazards. thats the set i expect now and its really not worth banning even though it is powerful.
gonna vote no ban on both
i really dont think either deoxys are broken tbh.
deo-d is always hazard stacking and the only other utility it offers is red carding out something behind a sub or a new bp chain. sometimes I wish I had just used a sash sr mon like garchomp that would actually trade blows with the opponent when i really needed it. also im required to run magic coat on this thing because then I can run enough defence to live bisharp knockoff among other things. not running magic coat is just asking to lose deo-d vs deo-d lead matchups which i encountered a lot of on the ladder. i had to use taunt in the 4th slot to ensure i wasnt set up fodder for stuff like mega-maw and sd bisharp. i just dont think its really as versaitile as people claim.
the only 2 deo-s sets i saw on ladder were dual screens and 3 att life orb. dual screens is a bit annoying but i think 3 att lo only seemed broken to begin with because it caught people offguard when usually all deo-s did was lead with hazards. thats the set i expect now and its really not worth banning even though it is powerful.
gonna vote no ban on both
Wont really comment on Deo-S because I get where youre coming from, and I respect that and see your side. However, what you said about Deo-D is what I dont agree with.
As of this second I started typing this, Im at #15 on the ladder. Im only a few games away from getting reqs (ladder wont work >:( ), and Ive been using the standard af Deosharp team of double genie / Deosharp / M-Mawile / Balloon Aegi. Ive run into a crapton of CTs, ranging from anti leads to Magic Coat mons that shouldnt really be using the move (or even be in OU anyways like Jirachi), and Ive been abe to beat most of them. Im not the greatest player out there, but the fact that I have been able to use a team that Ive never delved into and stay in the top 50 consistently when Ive never been able to do that before with any team is something I find a bit ridiculous. The team really runs itself. And Deo-D can run moves to take out would be counters. For example, Superpower with 28 EVS gets the OHKO on most Bisharp. Yeah, that trick is pretty well known right now, but even then, your opponent doesnt know if you have it or not. Mirror Coat screw Aegi up, and T-Wave (my personal fave) can render opposing sweepers useless 1/4 of the time and cripple them completely. Starting the game 5-5 with a ton of hazards on your field guarantees a win if you play smart, and its really easy to prevent Defog / Rapid Spin. So thats the versatility people are talking about.
Anyways, Against opposing Deosharp, theylee either A) Lead with their Magic Coat Deo-D in an attempt to CL your Deo-D, or B) Lead with Aegi/Bisharp to Kill your Deo-D before you can stack. In the case of the former (which is what Ive found to be the most common scenario), simply leading with NP T-Wave Thundy will almost guarantee a win. Deo-S cant do anything except Taunt, and after 2 boosts, it OHKOes and ignores the Red Card. From there, the opponent has to rush to defeat Thundy else they get swept, which puts all momentum in your hands. Bisharps SP doesnt even OHKO after LO, and is OHKOed by Thunderbolt (though LO kills you). From there, the match is 5-4 in your favor (or even 6-4 if you play Mind Games correctly with T-Wave and SP).
On the other hand, they might just decide to CL you with Bisharp / Aegi. Aegi is more difficult to deal with (since Bisharp is OHKOed by Superpower and theyll never SP), but Youre guaranteed rocks bar a crit, and T-Wave can cripple him if you choose to take that risk.
Now, that may not be entirely OP, but it sure as hell is overcentralizing. The beginnings of every match simply boil down to: Do I CL his Deo-D? Or do I take the risk of getting stacked while getting my own rocks up? I dont find this fun at all, nor do I think this should be in a healthy metagame. Lead diversity is all but gone, and I find that overcentralizing.
Ban Deo-D.
Knight of Cydonia
I COULD BE BANNED!
Deoxys-D - I use this a lot, I wouldn't say it gives an unfair advantage in battle. First of all it has one role, suicide lead. Yes you can set up 1/2 layers of hazards most of the time but you go a pokemon down. This means your team really has to take advantage of the hazards and keep them there for this to be a sensible strategy. Starting the match 5-6 gives you fewer options and seems to be a fair trade off for getting hazards up.
Secondly defog / rapid spin can be fitted onto basically any team. Yes there are defiant users / ghost types but every team is prepared to check +2 bisharp, not to mention even with the defiant boost you have lost your hazards to the defog. Excadrill can beat Aegislash with Iron Head on the switch in so even picking air balloon leaves it to a 50 50. Overall trying to stop the hazards being removed takes work and teamslots to attempt and does not necessarily happen. You can say something like "use offensive pressure" but this is more down to the actual battle and how the opponents defog user matches up against your team.
Finally deo-d has a fair few viable counter leads, and because it will be leading nearly every time stuff like sash sd chomp, cm landorus, sub gengar, np thundurus etc can setup and proceed to take out deo-d and an extra pokemon. These are pokemon that work outside of beating deo-sharp - its not a disadvantage to be running these if you aren't facing deo d. Aegislash is everywhere and limits deo to one layer if not running red card.
Deoxys-s - I rarely use this as I like offensive pokemon on my teams to contribute to synergy/ be able to switch into at least some pokemon. Lead sets I prefer Deo-d. From my experiences facing it I would not say it is broken either. Offensive sets are not hard to handle and it can really only come in for revenge kills/ slow u-turn or volt switch. Its main moves drop its stats so even once it comes in it has to switch out again pretty soon which leaves set up opportunities/ breathing space for more defensive teams. Basically hazards / life orb mean that any of your priority users will be able to take it out while ignoring its speed, and it is not powerful to the point that offensive teams lack pokemon that can take any one hit and ko back.
I'd actually say that offensive deo-s is very healthy for the meta, without it you lose a pokemon that checks the dd boosting meta and a lot of offensive pokemon in one slot. In such an offensive meta its good to have an extra pokemon that can deal with a lot of the threats that can otherwise sweep you. Without Deo-s every offensive team will be limited to t wave thundy or a scarf ground type to be able to check dd tar, gyara and zard x in one slot. I feel deo-s balances the meta more than a lot of people realise and banning it will likely make future suspects more dangerous.
Deo-s support sets are fine for this meta as well, they really only add to the perceived danger of deo-s by giving it unpredictability, dual screens/ hazard/ rain lead are not that special by themselves. They are reliable in what they do but as with Deo-d they still leave you 5-6.
Yeah so I would not ban either.
Secondly defog / rapid spin can be fitted onto basically any team. Yes there are defiant users / ghost types but every team is prepared to check +2 bisharp, not to mention even with the defiant boost you have lost your hazards to the defog. Excadrill can beat Aegislash with Iron Head on the switch in so even picking air balloon leaves it to a 50 50. Overall trying to stop the hazards being removed takes work and teamslots to attempt and does not necessarily happen. You can say something like "use offensive pressure" but this is more down to the actual battle and how the opponents defog user matches up against your team.
Finally deo-d has a fair few viable counter leads, and because it will be leading nearly every time stuff like sash sd chomp, cm landorus, sub gengar, np thundurus etc can setup and proceed to take out deo-d and an extra pokemon. These are pokemon that work outside of beating deo-sharp - its not a disadvantage to be running these if you aren't facing deo d. Aegislash is everywhere and limits deo to one layer if not running red card.
Deoxys-s - I rarely use this as I like offensive pokemon on my teams to contribute to synergy/ be able to switch into at least some pokemon. Lead sets I prefer Deo-d. From my experiences facing it I would not say it is broken either. Offensive sets are not hard to handle and it can really only come in for revenge kills/ slow u-turn or volt switch. Its main moves drop its stats so even once it comes in it has to switch out again pretty soon which leaves set up opportunities/ breathing space for more defensive teams. Basically hazards / life orb mean that any of your priority users will be able to take it out while ignoring its speed, and it is not powerful to the point that offensive teams lack pokemon that can take any one hit and ko back.
I'd actually say that offensive deo-s is very healthy for the meta, without it you lose a pokemon that checks the dd boosting meta and a lot of offensive pokemon in one slot. In such an offensive meta its good to have an extra pokemon that can deal with a lot of the threats that can otherwise sweep you. Without Deo-s every offensive team will be limited to t wave thundy or a scarf ground type to be able to check dd tar, gyara and zard x in one slot. I feel deo-s balances the meta more than a lot of people realise and banning it will likely make future suspects more dangerous.
Deo-s support sets are fine for this meta as well, they really only add to the perceived danger of deo-s by giving it unpredictability, dual screens/ hazard/ rain lead are not that special by themselves. They are reliable in what they do but as with Deo-d they still leave you 5-6.
Yeah so I would not ban either.
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By this logic, I can only assume you would be in favor of dropping Giratina into OU. It checks such powerful threats as Terrakion, Keldeo, Thundurus, Mega Gyarados, Landorus (both formes), and Charizard Y in a single Pokemon.
Keeping other Pokemon in check or maintaining metagame balance are not arguments against brokenness. In fact, it could be argued that Deo-S's ability to keep these Pokemon in check makes it more broken.
Check your logic.
fat jobe said:
What I meant with trevenant (or Gourgeist) is that it deals with drill the best. Aegislash will not enjoy an iron head plus earthquake. Then also with greninja beating defoggers is very true and is a great point, but greninja can not take a hit at all. So if you predicted wrong you could be in trouble if you run into trouble. In the end I believe it is a bit over centralizing, but then again you could make that argument for blissey or chancey.
Knight of Cydonia
I COULD BE BANNED!
That wasn't supposed to be an argument for keeping it, if you want to twist my post its going to look dumb. That statement only applies after I said deo-s is not broken for other reasons in the previous paragraph. Note Giratina would not pass the first part of this argument if i was inclined to argue for that. Its an observation on how I think it will affect the meta - ultimately suspect tests are trying to improve the tier so it would do some good to consider the consequences of banning/keeping.
I honestly forgot about t-wave on deoxys D. Then with magic bounce users like espeon, you do not have to lead with it. You just have to send it out when you see a deoxys D. Then with gourgeist it is still in the same boat with trevenant. it does not work well with deoxys D.
Ps
I will admit, magic bounce users are very predictable.
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