well regice is a menance
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ORAS FU Metagame Discussion (old)
- Thread starter Gary
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Yeah but those mons don't have reliable recovery, the ability to remove hazards and a strong move to hit with which doesn't require any attack investment and can be effective against most physical attackers in general. Missy will still die in the process of burning it if it runs enough to outspeed, and Lairon can be hit with Rock Smash or Dig (which it can actually use due to having not much else to run in the 4th slot other than Seed Bomb, which is meh). All these answers to Linoone have pros and cons so there is a reason to use them all.
Regice is incredibly good, but I'm sure the meta will adapt itself. One I myself like using is mixed simipour with superpower, but there are plenty of ways to deal with it. Voltturn is a great strategy to wear regice down, especially with hazards up. If you are using the infamous vigoroth (which arguably is broken) a regice (like many other mons) is set up fodder.
Just because it has tremendous bulk overall doesn't make it broken.
Just because it has tremendous bulk overall doesn't make it broken.
I'd like to bring up Corphish. As Call me 911 can attest, Corphish can be good even in UU, where a few people have been laddering up with a custom-made team. So if it can be semi-viable in UU, why not use it in FU?
#phish
#phish
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I can confirm that corphish is a really fun wallbreaker to play with, even in UU the little crab/lobster/crayfish thing has helped players to reach the ladder;)
The meta has been adapting. People are routinely running 2 counters on a team (machoke and metang) as well as their own regice. The sad thing is regice still puts in work in these games pretty routinely. But thats not really relevant. The meta adapting to the point that its almost impossible to build a team without MULTIPLE pokemon that have questionable viability outside of serving as regice counters (machoke in particular) is ridiculous overcentralization. And yeah, there are some gimmicky lures, but most of them don't come particularly close to an ohko on regice, which means defensive regice can just switch out and rest on any of the special attackers on your team later in the game.
I don't know, Tropius seems inferior to the other Defoggers in the tier like Swanna, Vibrava, Prinplup, Pidgeot and Vullaby. Tropius seems pretty weak and Leech Seed is kind of a waste on the set since it's probably going to be forced out a lot. The other defensive defoggers at least have better offensive presence with Foul Play + Toxic on Vullaby, Scald + Toxic on Prinplup, and Earthquake + Toxic on Vibrava. I could be wrong since I haven't used Defog Tropius, but it just seems like a waste of potential on it. We have a Rapid Spin shortage, not a Defog shortage.
no we definitely have a defog shortage too... vullaby is meh, vibrava idek, its not good... prinplup is solid and swanna is ok, but we aren't exactly swimming in good defoggers. TropiOUs shouldn't even be legal, but its not gonna be any good, especially not as a defogger
EV
Banned deucer.
What happens when people run Blizzard on Regice to hit Machoke on the switch?
252+ SpA Life Orb Regice Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 214-253 (58.7 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Then again, Ice Beam is already a 2HKO 92.6% of the time.
252+ SpA Life Orb Regice Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 175-208 (48 - 57.1%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO
You lose Rock Polish/coverage, but there goes a check unless people are running max SpD Machoke already. In which case:
252+ SpA Life Orb Regice Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Machoke: 142-168 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Regice: 218-258 (70.5 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(4 in Atk does nothing to improve its damage output with Dynamic Puch.)
252+ SpA Life Orb Regice Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 214-253 (58.7 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Then again, Ice Beam is already a 2HKO 92.6% of the time.
252+ SpA Life Orb Regice Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 175-208 (48 - 57.1%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO
You lose Rock Polish/coverage, but there goes a check unless people are running max SpD Machoke already. In which case:
252+ SpA Life Orb Regice Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Machoke: 142-168 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Regice: 218-258 (70.5 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(4 in Atk does nothing to improve its damage output with Dynamic Puch.)
try roost, toxic, leech seed, and protect/sub :]
taunt bait deluxe, Tropius is bad already, no need to make it useless against Stall. Air slash is also needed to stop a few pokemon that would screw you over if not. these include Victreebel and simisage.
you would have to take them out first but idk how commen they are in other tiers but i've used it in ou and its fine (i prefer trev cuz keldeo block)
Has anyone noticed how powerful Rain Offense is? I think Molk used it and Volbeat + 2 rain sweepers (preferably golduck + beartic) is a huge pain for offense and stall. Regice is 2hkoed by Golduck because the often run cross chop. I remember beating Magcargo with it too. We have an excellent weather 'mon in Volbeat. Prankster Rain Dance, creates free turns with Encore meaning it can set up on stuff who just used coverage moves. Also, has U-turn and Twave which are nice support moves and the threat of Tail Glow pass to either of the monkeys, Electabuzz, or Swoobat is there.
Finally, Huntail is actually a nice late game sweeper. It swept me with Waterfall / Ice Beam / Crunch / Shell Smash lategame with LO used by sugarhigh. It is a decent late game sweeper.
Other than that, Krokorok is freakin' everywhere because it provides incredible utility (Arbok!) and late-game capabilities and Pursuit traps Swoobat, one of the most threatening late game sweepers. Pursuit from Krokorok is amazing because it traps and eliminates Misdreavus and Honedge, two 'mons Vigoroth has trouble with.
Speaking of Vigoroth, it is broken when you count it needs limited team support and krokorok is an excellent 'mon, and when you add Pursuit, idk how your breaking it without using Focus Blast or lucky crits especially since vig can taunt toxic users. Vigoroth is easy to slap on teams. Regice completely changes the metagame. It needs to leave asap. that is all.
Finally, Huntail is actually a nice late game sweeper. It swept me with Waterfall / Ice Beam / Crunch / Shell Smash lategame with LO used by sugarhigh. It is a decent late game sweeper.
Other than that, Krokorok is freakin' everywhere because it provides incredible utility (Arbok!) and late-game capabilities and Pursuit traps Swoobat, one of the most threatening late game sweepers. Pursuit from Krokorok is amazing because it traps and eliminates Misdreavus and Honedge, two 'mons Vigoroth has trouble with.
Speaking of Vigoroth, it is broken when you count it needs limited team support and krokorok is an excellent 'mon, and when you add Pursuit, idk how your breaking it without using Focus Blast or lucky crits especially since vig can taunt toxic users. Vigoroth is easy to slap on teams. Regice completely changes the metagame. It needs to leave asap. that is all.
Hey friends, did you guys know there's a Pokemon that counters Regice, Simipour, Arbok, Vigoroth, Electabuzz, Sawsbuck, Metang, Lapras, and more all in one teamslot?
Yes, i'm goin' there
Shedinja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Protect / Will-O-Wisp
- X-Scissor
- Shadow Sneak / Will-O-Wisp
- Baton Pass
Shedinja is a pretty unique mon overall, and i actually think FU might be a place where it can shine. As mentioned above, Shedinja's unique Wonder Guard ability gives it the capability of hard countering some of the biggest threats in the tier (Regice, Simipour, Sawsbuck, Vigoroth, Arbok as long as it has a non attacking move), giving it a valuable niche in the tier as an anti metagame threat of sorts The above set is tailored to what Shedinja can do, and it's pretty much the best way to get it to work imo. X-Scissor and Shadow Sneak provide two reliable STAB moves for Shedinja to work with to wear down the opposition, Protect lets Shedinja scout opponents for status/coverage moves to make sure you don't get screwed over by something random out of the blue (also lets you scout choiced attackers), and Will-O-Wisp gives Shedinja a great way to wear down the opposition over time and severely cripple a few Pokemon that give it and its teammates trouble, including Lairon and Gigalith. Baton Pass might seem odd on a Pokemon that doesn't carry a single boosting move, but it's actually a really really good option here. Because of the fact that Shedinja forces so many switches, drypassing is an absolutely amazing way to steal momentum and maintain your advantage against the opponent, especially when Shedinja blocks both U-turn and Volt Switch.
Now of course Shedinja's big achilles heel is that it's stuck with only one HP, meaning all forms of passive damage will OHKO it and all super effective attacks will 2HKO it (Focus Sash), this means that Shedinja can't simply be slapped on a team, and has to have specific team support to make sure it works as well as it can. Given that it counters like half the metagame we know about atm (including some of the outright scariest Pokemon in the whole meta) it seems well worth it to me though.
Entry hazards in particular are a problem given they just OHKO Shedinja as they switch in, so Pokemon to get rid of them are absolutely required here. Reflect+Roost Natu, Prinplup, and Swanna should be alright at keeping them away, and i'm even willing to give Sandshrew a try tbh given it can give Lairon trouble.
EDIT: sugarhigh and Imanalt can attest to this
Shedinja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Protect / Will-O-Wisp
- X-Scissor
- Shadow Sneak / Will-O-Wisp
- Baton Pass
Shedinja is a pretty unique mon overall, and i actually think FU might be a place where it can shine. As mentioned above, Shedinja's unique Wonder Guard ability gives it the capability of hard countering some of the biggest threats in the tier (Regice, Simipour, Sawsbuck, Vigoroth, Arbok as long as it has a non attacking move), giving it a valuable niche in the tier as an anti metagame threat of sorts The above set is tailored to what Shedinja can do, and it's pretty much the best way to get it to work imo. X-Scissor and Shadow Sneak provide two reliable STAB moves for Shedinja to work with to wear down the opposition, Protect lets Shedinja scout opponents for status/coverage moves to make sure you don't get screwed over by something random out of the blue (also lets you scout choiced attackers), and Will-O-Wisp gives Shedinja a great way to wear down the opposition over time and severely cripple a few Pokemon that give it and its teammates trouble, including Lairon and Gigalith. Baton Pass might seem odd on a Pokemon that doesn't carry a single boosting move, but it's actually a really really good option here. Because of the fact that Shedinja forces so many switches, drypassing is an absolutely amazing way to steal momentum and maintain your advantage against the opponent, especially when Shedinja blocks both U-turn and Volt Switch.
Now of course Shedinja's big achilles heel is that it's stuck with only one HP, meaning all forms of passive damage will OHKO it and all super effective attacks will 2HKO it (Focus Sash), this means that Shedinja can't simply be slapped on a team, and has to have specific team support to make sure it works as well as it can. Given that it counters like half the metagame we know about atm (including some of the outright scariest Pokemon in the whole meta) it seems well worth it to me though.
Entry hazards in particular are a problem given they just OHKO Shedinja as they switch in, so Pokemon to get rid of them are absolutely required here. Reflect+Roost Natu, Prinplup, and Swanna should be alright at keeping them away, and i'm even willing to give Sandshrew a try tbh given it can give Lairon trouble.
EDIT: sugarhigh and Imanalt can attest to this
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Sandshrew is lol the best psysical defensive spinner in the tier, it can work but keep it to stall and bulky balance.
Anyways, I've been trying to be creative with Regice lately, and Gravity is a set i've found sucess with lately and SubToxic works against bulkier teams.
Regice @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Gravity
- Blizzard / Ice beam
- Zap Cannon
- Focus Blast
&
Regice @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
- Toxic
252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 91-108 (25.7 - 30.5%) -- 9.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
- Substitute
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
I also want to bring up Mix Simisage, a pokemon I've used alot in PU that looks like it could be fantastic in FU
Simisage @ Life Orb
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Superpower / Gunk Shot
- Knock Off
- Seed Bomb
Notable calcs:
252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Regice: 278-330 (76.3 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Superpower vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 226-268 (63.8 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 91-108 (25.7 - 30.5%) -- 9.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Gourgeist-Small: 187-221 (59.5 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Seed Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 338-400 (84 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Klang: 57-68 (17.5 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klang: 208-247 (64.1 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Metang: 109-130 (33.7 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Grumpig: 289-341 (79.3 - 93.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Eviolite Roselia: 114-135 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Roselia: 212-250 (69.7 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 148-177 (45.6 - 54.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Life Orb Simisage Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gabite: 195-230 (57.3 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Life Orb Simisage Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Swanna: 261-308 (89.6 - 105.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
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So from what I can tell based on the many matches I have both played and spectated, the meta completely revolves around Vigoroth right now. Every match I have seen within the last few days has been "who sets up their Vigoroth and wins first." You can play horribly the entire match and still come out on top with a last mon Vigoroth if your opponent doesn't have a Shedinja or Misdreavous alive on their team. Not even Lampent works because it just gets PP stalled. It is the face of FU right now, and every team I build has to have multiple checks to it if I want to win.
I'm pretty sure that this is the most cookie cutter team possible in FU right now.
Vigoroth counter + Vigoroth support mon + Regice Check + Fraxure / Regice check + Monkey + Vigoroth.
That is literally every team I've seen right now.
I'm pretty sure that this is the most cookie cutter team possible in FU right now.
Misdreavus @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 194 HP / 252 SpA / 62 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Nasty Plot
Krokorok @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge
Machoke @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 48 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
Metang @ Eviolite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
Simipour @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Focus Blast
Vigoroth @ Eviolite
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SpD / 16 Spe
Careful Nature
- Return
- Bulk Up
- Taunt
- Slack Off
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 194 HP / 252 SpA / 62 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Nasty Plot
Krokorok @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Stone Edge
Machoke @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 48 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
Metang @ Eviolite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
Simipour @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Focus Blast
Vigoroth @ Eviolite
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SpD / 16 Spe
Careful Nature
- Return
- Bulk Up
- Taunt
- Slack Off
Vigoroth counter + Vigoroth support mon + Regice Check + Fraxure / Regice check + Monkey + Vigoroth.
That is literally every team I've seen right now.
Where's the Regice?
Also, D-Gleam on Misdreavus provides better coverage.
Where are you guys discussing FU? I scanned the thread a few times and couldn't find the link
EV
Banned deucer.
#xyfu on SynIrc or the Other Metas room on Showdown. (Links in my sig)
Regice isn't that necessary, since so many special attackers are unviable just by the fact that Regice exists in the tier. And yeah ofc you can run Dazzling Gleam over Thunderbolt, that was just a choice for the specific team I made. Wisp on the switch cripples anything that would be hit by Dazzling Gleam anyway (Krok/Zweilous/Frazure etc.). So ultimately it's a preference thing. I personally wanted to hit simipour and swanna more than the threats listed above since wisp makes them all useless anyway.
I was personally thinking
+
could be decent. Gotta Baton Pass those Swords Dances.
I've only played a few matches against Molk and Imanalt but I really do think Vigo and Regice need to get out of the tier, every single game revolves around them, and while that's sort of to be expected in such a narrow field of viable Pokemon, the extent to which it happens right now is a bit much.
Beyond that though the tier is phenomenal. Been having a lot of fun with Choice Band Machoke, Choice Specs Simisear, and Swords Dance Sawsbuck. NP Missy is still a monster. Also been playing around with Stealth Rock Gabite which plays a bit like Stealth Rock Garchomp in OU. Articuno will be great once Regice is out of the tier and I already really like it even with it in the tier. An extremely bulky Defogger with power? Yes please.
Beyond that though the tier is phenomenal. Been having a lot of fun with Choice Band Machoke, Choice Specs Simisear, and Swords Dance Sawsbuck. NP Missy is still a monster. Also been playing around with Stealth Rock Gabite which plays a bit like Stealth Rock Garchomp in OU. Articuno will be great once Regice is out of the tier and I already really like it even with it in the tier. An extremely bulky Defogger with power? Yes please.
Dragonair in this tier doe, GG.
I also agree about Regice not being in FU.
I also agree about Regice not being in FU.
hey, if you DESPERATELY need a Regice/Vigoroth/Anything-Offensive-but-not-a-ghost Counter, then here it is:
FEAR (Ratata) Focus sash
whatever
- Endeavor
- Quick Attack
- lol
- moar lol
FEAR (Ratata) Focus sash
whatever
- Endeavor
- Quick Attack
- lol
- moar lol
- Status