Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

[Dece1t]

It surprises me how low fire is, and how rock actually got a bit more usage. Dark actually, oddly enough, decreased in usage, that also surprises me a bit (then again fighting rose a bit, so that may be the answer to why). Meta seems really balanced rn, there's no real type dominating completely. I also noticed though, some of the lower tiered types are being used less compared to last month. While most of them were played by 4% of the meta last month (barring ice), it's gone down a bit to 3%, with ghost actually getting into mid-tier (middle 6). This next thing may be just be, but Bug actually remained a high tiered type this month, that sorta surprised me. With the genesect ban, I was expecting it to go down in usage to probably mid-tier, but that didn't happen, so that's pretty cool.

Looking at the types I use most (Ground and Ice), I saw a couple cool things happen. Seismitoad finally passed gastrodon as the more used Water Absorber on ground teams, which is a first. It's funny because no one thought to use seismitoad, or know what good use it would make, but now it's seen on nearly every ground team, so in my eyes that's pretty cool. For ice, Walrein (finally) rose in usage, close to how much Lapras is used, this continued for a few months, but it finally peaked to a good spot in usage. However, what kinda baffles me a bit is that Piloswine went way down compared to prior months, a lot of people preferred Mamoswine as their rocks setter, with SR being on 55% of all Mamoswines.

Yea, again, meta looks rly good, idk whether the sablnite (if it gets banned) will affect much or not, only time will tell at that point.

 

[Acast]

The reason I said that was because the Monotype Community has discussed several Pokemon of the like being suspected, and I assumed this because it will be brought up or implied at least once in this discussion. Volcanion is obviously going to S Rank for Monotype Fire once it is released, because it will be the first Fire-Type Pokemon that is immune to Water Type Attacks, and it could blast Rock and Ground Types. Since Volcanion will probably not go to Ubers in the regular metagame, it will probably be allowed in Monotype.

I was not assuming things for no reason; it's a real possibility that could actually happen. Mega Sableye is one of the glues that holds Dark and Ghost Teams together, and it was discussed. To a lesser extent, the same thing goes for Hoopa-Unbound and Mega Gyarados. At first I was being sarcastic in my tone about banning Volcanion, but now that I hear myself I vaguely think that it could actually happen. I guess it doesn't meet the requirements to be banned, but who are we to know, it hasn't been released!

And I'm pretty sure somewhat mentioned the release of Pokemon Z is soon. Usually, non-remake able games come right after the game series, so Pokemon Z may just be a myth, but then again, I could be wrong.
As for that, does anybody have any citations for this to prove if Pokemon Z has actually been confirmed? If not, it deserves no mention in the metagame in my opinion until it is confirmed.

We do not know when Volcanion is going to be released, or if it's even going to be soon. We have yet to see how it will affect the metagame, or how much it will really help Fire teams. Looking at its stats and typing/ability, it's basically a Water type Heatran that knows Uber Scald and has defenses that lean towards the physical side. If people honestly think Volcanion could be banned based on what they see right now, we might as well talk about banning Heatran too.

I brought up Pokemon Z as a joke, which I quickly followed up with a relevant post about the topic of discussion at the time.

It's a sign that Pokemon Z is going to be released soon and bring more OP megas to satisfy our thirst for bans. Mega Lapras

But I do completely agree that we're getting ban happy. Mega Gyarados guys? Really? There might be other mons worth looking at, but I can't honestly say anything should be suspected after Sablenite. Maybe something else will show up, but we'll just have to wait and see.

The forum moderators can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with posting a simple joke as long as there is also relevant discussion within the same post. We're talking about pokemon here. You shouldn't be taking it that seriously -_-

 

[Wanka]

The reason I said that was because the Monotype Community has discussed several Pokemon of the like being suspected, and I assumed this because it will be brought up or implied at least once in this discussion. Volcanion is obviously going to S Rank for Monotype Fire once it is released, because it will be the first Fire-Type Pokemon that is immune to Water Type Attacks, and it could blast Rock and Ground Types. Since Volcanion will probably not go to Ubers in the regular metagame, it will probably be allowed in Monotype.

I was not assuming things for no reason; it's a real possibility that could actually happen. Mega Sableye is one of the glues that holds Dark and Ghost Teams together, and it was discussed. To a lesser extent, the same thing goes for Hoopa-Unbound and Mega Gyarados. At first I was being sarcastic in my tone about banning Volcanion, but now that I hear myself I vaguely think that it could actually happen. I guess it doesn't meet the requirements to be banned, but who are we to know, it hasn't been released!

And I'm pretty sure somewhat mentioned the release of Pokemon Z is soon. Usually, non-remake able games come right after the game series, so Pokemon Z may just be a myth, but then again, I could be wrong.
As for that, does anybody have any citations for this to prove if Pokemon Z has actually been confirmed? If not, it deserves no mention in the metagame in my opinion until it is confirmed.

I honestly don't care whether or not volcanion will be S rank or whether it will get banned or not. The fact of the matter is that there is absolutely 0 reason to clutter up this thread with theory moning about a mon that we don't know when it will get realeased.

Discussion about mega Sableyes and hoopa are good discussions because those mons have a direct impact on the current metagame. Volcanion has no impact on the metagame at hand therefore there is really no reason to start discussing it.

Useless theory moning does nothing to help this thread and the tier in general. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

I honestly don't care whether or not volcanion will be S rank or whether it will get banned or not. The fact of the matter is that there is absolutely 0 reason to clutter up this thread with theory moning about a mon that we don't know when it will get realeased.

Discussion about mega Sableyes and hoopa are good discussions because those mons have a direct impact on the current metagame. Volcanion has no impact on the metagame at hand therefore there is really no reason to start discussing it.

Useless theory moning does nothing to help this thread and the tier in general. That's all I'm saying.

I guess you're right, to be honest. I was just predicting would could happen when Volcanion will be released.

It surprises me how low fire is, and how rock actually got a bit more usage. Dark actually, oddly enough, decreased in usage, that also surprises me a bit (then again fighting rose a bit, so that may be the answer to why). Meta seems really balanced rn, there's no real type dominating completely. I also noticed though, some of the lower tiered types are being used less compared to last month. While most of them were played by 4% of the meta last month (barring ice), it's gone down a bit to 3%, with ghost actually getting into mid-tier (middle 6). This next thing may be just be, but Bug actually remained a high tiered type this month, that sorta surprised me. With the genesect ban, I was expecting it to go down in usage to probably mid-tier, but that didn't happen, so that's pretty cool.

Looking at the types I use most (Ground and Ice), I saw a couple cool things happen. Seismitoad finally passed gastrodon as the more used Water Absorber on ground teams, which is a first. It's funny because no one thought to use seismitoad, or know what good use it would make, but now it's seen on nearly every ground team, so in my eyes that's pretty cool. For ice, Walrein (finally) rose in usage, close to how much Lapras is used, this continued for a few months, but it finally peaked to a good spot in usage. However, what kinda baffles me a bit is that Piloswine went way down compared to prior months, a lot of people preferred Mamoswine as their rocks setter, with SR being on 55% of all Mamoswines.

Yea, again, meta looks rly good, idk whether the sablnite (if it gets banned) will affect much or not, only time will tell at that point.

Mega Sableye's ban would almost definitely decrease Dark's usage more, which would be unfortunate. Dark would lose a lot of grounds against Fighting Types, basically Physical Attackers anyway, and they would lose a core defensive staller. If this happens, I could see Mega Sharpedo being used more often. But it does kinda meet the requirements for a ban I suppose; it screws Fighting and Ghost over, and Psychic has to use Mega Gardevoir if it wants to win.

We do not know when Volcanion is going to be released, or if it's even going to be soon. We have yet to see how it will affect the metagame, or how much it will really help Fire teams. Looking at its stats and typing/ability, it's basically a Water type Heatran that knows Uber Scald and has defenses that lean towards the physical side. If people honestly think Volcanion could be banned based on what they see right now, we might as well talk about banning Heatran too.

I brought up Pokemon Z as a joke, which I quickly followed up with a relevant post about the topic of discussion at the time.



The forum moderators can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with posting a simple joke as long as there is also relevant discussion within the same post. We're talking about pokemon here. You shouldn't be taking it that seriously -_-

Again, I guess you're right. I kinda have mixed feelings about whether this is eligible to be criticized according to what iWanka said, but let's not get into that now, because after a while, there's only some much a man can take.

 

[ed wins]

These new usage statistics are shocking to say the least. Fire didn't just drop in usage, it plummeted.

Having come across it on the ladder so many times and watching Septicus use the type beautifully, it is very easy to say that Fire is a great type. However, Fire is a type that requires lots of practice to use. Yes, hazards are an issue, but hazards alone cannot completely whittle a Fire team right off the bat. Infernape generally does a good job at postponing hazards. What really cripples Fire is the combination of hazards and offensive pressure. When we look at the matchup tables, we see that Fire struggles greatly struggles against Dragon, Fairy, Fighting, Flying, Ground, Rock, and Water, four of which are incredibly common(Flying, Fighting, Dragon, Water), and one of which is relatively common, but on the rise(Ground). Conversely, Fire has an advantage over Bug, Ghost, Grass, Ice, Poison, and Steel. Fire's positive matchups only only carry relevance in regards to Bug and Steel, as the rest are uncommon as well. Dark, Electric, Normal, and Psychic stand as neutral matchups. Psychic and Dark would be the relevant matchups there.

The drop of usage can most likely be attributed to its low ease of use; not only is the type tortured with many threats, but most of those threats can be found with high amplitude in high ladder. In short, Fire not only has to learn to play around offensive [scarf] threats, bulky, defensive cores, and great wincons against it(Excadrill, Landorus, Slowbro, Terrakion, etc), but it has to constantly break past those threats. Learning to play the type is not easy whatsoever(I've tried a few times and miserably failed), but to constantly be bombarded with teams that have proper hazard removers, that have reliable recovery, that have their share of choice users, speed boosters, set up sweepers, cleaners, immunities and resistances can be greatly unappealing.

I generally love laddering in this tier. I'm that casual that loves using the same team for days or weeks on end despite having over one hundred others. When I come across an unbalanced matchup or a type with a massive wincon against my team, I think very little of it because I only see x type or threat ever so often and can generally play around them very well. However, I do get agitated when I keep coming across unbalanced matchups to the point where I just stop playing for the day.

People simply don't want to deal with this as there are types with more versatility and ease of use while carrying better matchups.

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

These new usage statistics are shocking to say the least. Fire didn't just drop in usage, it plummeted.

Having come across it on the ladder so many times and watching Septicus use the type beautifully, it is very easy to say that Fire is a great type. However, Fire is a type that requires lots of practice to use. Yes, hazards are an issue, but hazards alone cannot completely whittle a Fire team right off the bat. Infernape generally does a good job at postponing hazards. What really cripples Fire is the combination of hazards and offensive pressure. When we look at the matchup tables, we see that Fire struggles greatly struggles against Dragon, Fairy, Fighting, Flying, Ground, Rock, and Water, four of which are incredibly common(Flying, Fighting, Dragon, Water), and one of which is relatively common, but on the rise(Ground). Conversely, Fire has an advantage over Bug, Ghost, Grass, Ice, Poison, and Steel. Fire's positive matchups only only carry relevance in regards to Bug and Steel, as the rest are uncommon as well. Dark, Electric, Normal, and Psychic stand as neutral matchups. Psychic and Dark would be the relevant matchups there.

Yep. Yep. Agreed. But every type requires practice to reach it's true potential, that goes for every type, from the lowest-tiered types to the strongest types, practice is how you develop trust and strategy within your Pokemon.

I've just been wondering about Ghost. It's a neat type and all, but it's heavily limited; should Mega Sableye be banned, I don't believe it should be banned from Monotype Ghost, because it's all Ghost has against Dark. I recall being in the Monotype Chatroom on Main and WishingJirachi7 remarking that Dark has the tools to handle Ghost in every situation. and now that I think about it, I think that is all the more true. Ghost has no truly viable physical attackers and no fast physical attackers, which is why they usually use Golurk, who is the best physical attacker in the tier. Even then, Golurk has many, many weaknesses and falls to many generic Dark Pokemon. Through my battles, I have commonly discovered that in a battle against Dark and Ghost, both sides will immediately lead off with Mega Sableye, because both have the capacity to win the game if used right. On Generic Dark, Mandibuzz has to worry about strong Special Attackers like Gengar, Chandelure, and Aegislash. Tyranitar and Bisharp both can be burned and be rendered (almost) useless. So it usually comes down to this one massive stall war. Even if Ghost wins, Mega Sableye is still prone to being overwhelmed by physical attackers the next turn, which is kind of upsetting.

Excuse my theorymoning, just a thought just crossed my head: I wonder if there will be a Ghost Pokemon one day that can truly stand up to Dark Types.

 

[Acast]

Due to a lot of miscommunication, the council has put this off because we were told there would be a ladder reset. Since ULT just started we think it's safe to assume there won't be a reset within the next few weeks. We've planned to do this for almost a month and by now you all should already know that this is happening , but we can finally officially get started with monotype's second public suspect.

The council has voted to publicly suspect Sablenite. :o​

Ever since the introduction of Mega Sableye at the beginning of the ORAS metagame, the jewel-wielding demon has been a topic of hot debate. Its typing is a blessing for both of the types that use it. Dark teams appreciate the immunity to Fighting moves while Ghost teams value its ability for hazard control as well as its role as a Knock Off sponge. However, many have argued that its combination of Magic Bounce, high defensive stats, and great setup and support movepool make it too good, leaving it with only a handful of checks and even fewer counters. Due to Mega Sableye's presence, some types have been forced to resort to what could be called unorthodox sets to deal with it. The Calm Mind sweeper set in particular has been said to be an issue, but its various support options are worthy of note as well.

For those that obtain the requirements necessary to vote, there will be only two options: global ban or no ban. To go along with our recently implemented and newly updated tiering philosophy, type-banning Sablenite on either of its types will not be an option.

In order to vote in this suspect, you will need to accumulate 2600 COIL on the regular Monotype ladder where Sablenite will be unbanned. If you want to calculate the exact number of games a certain GXE requires, go here and replace the word GXE with the numerical GXE you're interested in and click search. To learn more about the COIL system, read Antar's thread here.

You can view your COIL by simply typing /rank into the PS! simulator. Tagging The Immortal to request that he sets up COIL for our ladder. Thanks in advance, TI!

Some reference GXEs and the number of games required:

GXE 68 = 246 games
GXE 70 = 150 games
GXE 75 = 78 games
GXE 80 = 54 games
GXE 85 = 42 games

(These reqs are subject to change if needed)

Participating in this suspect test does not count towards the Tiering Contributor badge.

The account you achieve your reqs with must be created on or after the date of this post and must have the tag MS2 at the start of it so we can ensure that everyone laddered within the suspect period.
Example: If I were to use my own name for obtaining reqs, the account I would use would be "MS2 Acast".

This suspect will end two weeks from now on the 20th of November, 11:59 PM EST. By that time you must have identified with your reqs in the identification thread. The identification thread will go up during the suspect period and will be announced here as well as linked in the Monotype room intro.
A 60% majority in favor of banning Sablenite will be necessary for the ban to occur.

(As a side note, intelligent and respectful debate of Sablenite in this thread is encouraged during the suspect period. One-line posts and shitposts are not. You are welcome to have more casual discussions on this topic in the monotype room.)

Quick reminder of Eevee General's warning:

So since some of you didn't get the message, anymore BS one-liner joke meme stupid posts will be infracted after this.

• Stay relevant
• Be nice!

Good luck and happy laddering!

 

[Ronman5]

Tbh the mega sab ban is only going to hurt ghost badly... it gets rid of ghosts two biggest threats.. at that point all you do I need to counter aegislash and game over for ghost...

Dark however is op enough without sableye mega, as it is already has threats in Hoopa U, Ttar, Bisharp, Absolmega, houndoom, and others to add to the table... it just gets a less as good mega approach but TTar mega, Abby mega, or houndoom mega refills those rolls, also normal sab is pretty op its self... so its not like it permantly loses sableyes op ness

Ghost as said would lose SO much from this ban... but I doubt you guys will listen to reason saying we should ban it on both types... so my words are probally empty here

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

Tbh the mega sab ban is only going to hurt ghost badly... it gets rid of ghosts two biggest threats.. at that point all you do I need to counter aegislash and game over for ghost...

Dark however is op enough without sableye mega, as it is already has threats in Hoopa U, Ttar, Bisharp, Absolmega, houndoom, and others to add to the table... it just gets a less as good mega approach but TTar mega, Abby mega, or houndoom mega refills those rolls, also normal sab is pretty op its self... so its not like it permantly loses sableyes op ness

Ghost as said would lose SO much from this ban... but I doubt you guys will listen to reason saying we should ban it on both types... so my words are probally empty here

This, I agree with wholeheartedly, although it cannot happen. Acast specifically said global ban or no ban, meaning that both types will be banned from using Mega Sableye if it is banned, or if it is not banned, both types will be able to do so. Mega Sableye is either staying, or going.

 

[Ronman5]

This, I agree with wholeheartedly, although it cannot happen. Acast specifically said global ban or no ban, meaning that both types will be banned from using Mega Sableye if it is banned, or if it is not banned, both types will be able to do so. Mega Sableye is either staying, or going.

that's why the last sentence cause I know its going to go or stay, but either way our words are empty when it comes down to decisions, it'll just be down to how the suspect testers feel about sab mega for the most part..

 

[dusk raimon]

that's why the last sentence cause I know its going to go or stay, but either way our words are empty when it comes down to decisions, it'll just be down to how the suspect testers feel about sab mega for the most part..

True, then why don't u try and get reqs if u feel so strongly?

 

[Wanka]

In the event Sab does get banned. Ghost as a whole wont take as big of a hit as some posts have made it out to be. Leftovers taunt variants of regular sableyes are still strong sets. Whether you want it to be spD or physD is up to you (I prefer physD to let jelli go full spD) but it is still a really strong mon.

Regular sableye lets you be able to run taunt because you are constantly carrying prankster which makes it an awesome stall breaker Along with being able to be completely spin proof, regular sable gives you the added taunt to stop bulky walls from defogging like skarm, zapdos, mandibuzz, mew, and latias. With regular sableye allowing ghost to keep hazards in play a lot easier, the support from aegislash and jellicent becomes even more prevelant than it already is. With their ability to take on eachothers offensive checks and the fact that rocks are constantly wearing you opponent down, not having mega sab can actually turn into quite an advantage.

Don't get me wrong the added bulk mega variants provide along with versatility is in fact irreplaceable but the type as whole is still quite effective. I've always had it embedded in my mind that if you can learn the ins and outs of ghost than it can actually be an extremely good type to ladder with/use in general. It has been granting me some good success on the ladder as well pushing me into the top 25 most recently and I've been indeed using regular sableye.

If anyone is thinking about using a regular sableye variant I suggest taking the ghost starter team on the site. I took it and modified it to what I wanted to use and test out. Argus is a renown ghost user and the team utilizes regular sableye and still holds good effectiveness.

#forkammi

 

[lax]

Honestly, is Mega Sab even broken? People might assume this is a bias post because some view me as a dark user but this is an honest post. Every single type has a way of beating Mega Sab and Sab's support as long as you play right.

some ways to beat Mega Sableye

Just to clarify, these are just some examples of things that beat it. I understand that having to run a specific check to a mon makes it broken so these are just some ideas.
Water: Keldeo(Sub CM or Specs), Azumarill, scald burn cuz scald is the 2nd best move in the game!!
Grass: Serperior, BD Naught, SD Breloom
Fighting: Keldeo, Set up Nape, SD Loom, Guts Heracross
Flying: Togekiss, Zard Y, Banded Dnite, SD Gliscor, and lots more.
Rock: Diancie and Mega Aggron(curse)
Ground: Scald burn then any banded mon
Steel: Tran lava plume burn, SD Bisharp, Jirachi iron head spam
Ice: This one is stuff but banded mons? Mamo, KyuB, dunno.
Fire: Can't get burned!!
Dark&Ghost: Calm Mind wars!! Or, if you're not CM, just lose or try to flinch.
Psychic: Mega Garde, Tini, Rachi after weakened, Skill Swap Gallade(<- kek)
Fairy: Lol
Poison: This one is stuff. Scald burn then spam attacks?
Electric: Para everything.
Normal: Mega Lop, Banded diggersby with cleric support.
Dragon: Banded outrage spam lol!

I feel people will just attempt to ban it because they lost vs it one time and got salty. Remember, just because it beats you once doesn't make it broken!! xd. I'd love it if someone proved me wrong

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

Anyway, although I don't believe Mega Sableye should be bannec

In the event Sab does get banned. Ghost as a whole wont take as big of a hit as some posts have made it out to be. Leftovers taunt variants of regular sableyes are still strong sets. Whether you want it to be spD or physD is up to you (I prefer physD to let jelli go full spD) but it is still a really strong mon.
#forkammi

tbh, yeah it will. Mega Sableye is basically the only solid thing that stands up to Dark Types, so basically if pitted against Dark, Ghost now has an auto-lose thing, but I agree with your reasoning: Jellicent is better for a specially defensive utility set.
Idk, but I guess I can see people possibly using Spiritomb more if Mega Sableye is banned. Spiritomb's stat spread is kinda like Mega Sableye, and they possess similiar movepools, and the same type. On Dark, Mega Sharpedo will definitely be used more. What do you guys think about this?

 

[Dece1t]

My main concern for ghost tbh is hazard control. Think about it for a minute, without mega sab, you would lead with reg sab (or froslass) with taunt, what if they save their lead? You'll be stuck in a redicting game where you not only need to send mega sableye in once the lead comes back in on the exact same turn, you need to taunt it, which it can easily switch out of to usually a strong special attacker. At least with mega sableye, you semi negate this, you only have to switch it in on the hazards set up, making it a lot easier to bounce back hazards, and not be forced to run, idk, defog drifblim or some shit.

As for dark, do they rly need it? No. It would be a decent buff since dark is pretty good rn, but they'll live, and it'll still be a good type. However, if we leave sableye, dark won't be OP, by any means. Thats why I'm for not banning it period. I'd rather not buff dark minorly at the cost of crippling ghost pretty bad.

 

[Wanka]

Anyway, although I don't believe Mega Sableye should be bannec

tbh, yeah it will. Mega Sableye is basically the only solid thing that stands up to Dark Types, so basically if pitted against Dark, Ghost now has an auto-lose thing, but I agree with your reasoning: Jellicent is better for a specially defensive utility set.
Idk, but I guess I can see people possibly using Spiritomb more if Mega Sableye is banned. Spiritomb's stat spread is kinda like Mega Sableye, and they possess similiar movepools, and the same type. On Dark, Mega Sharpedo will definitely be used more. What do you guys think about this?

Ghost still struggles with dark even with mega sab. There are still no switchins to hoopa and ghost still has major issues with lum berry bisharp. You can't try and tell me that a type is taking a massive hit by saying "oh it's gunna lose even more to the type it already loses to." That kinda logic is really stupid.

regular sableye is still good lmao. The hazard control will definitely be an issue like stun said but saying that "oh it auto loses to dark now" when it pretty much always lost to dark anyways makes me question your logic.

 

[SaNeski]

I'd rather not buff dark minorly at the cost of crippling ghost pretty bad.

Huh? Do u mean nerf?


Also, Hazard control will be an issue, but are we downplaying priority taunt because we've gotten used to the luxury of magic bounce? Unless you're talking about preserving the shedinja-mega sableye core where most opposing teams have to have a special check to beat it (This would probably sway me to vote for a ban tbh).


Hazard control is waay better with mega sableye, it's a byproduct of its mechanic, but it's not really why there's a call for MegaSab to be suspected. I'm still not decided on my vote as to weather to ban or not, but i'm def not 100% with your stance on letting mega sableye slide on dark because it will affect ghost in a certain department.

 

[ReuzeSmurf]

I've been seeing a lot of posts stating either one of the following 2 arguments and I really want to get of my chest how much they irk me:

Dark/Ghost will take a heavy hit from losing Mega-Sableye: Stating that either one of these two types will suffer from the loss of Mega-Sableye does nothing to prove whether Mega-Sableye is or isn't broken. All it does is state that it's a very good poke on either type, which we already know (It's being suspected for a reason). The same argument could have easily been used for Kyurem-White on Ice or Shaymin-Sky on Grass, because their loss undoubtedly hurt their respective types, but that wasn't the focus. They were inherently broken and that's all that mattered.
Dark/Ghost can survive without Mega-Sableye: Similar to the argument above, this doesn't say anything about whether it is or isn't broken either. One can make a very solid Flying team whitout using Skarmory and still do well in the meta. With this logic Skarmory would be at least as broken as Mega-Sableye since Flying can survive without it and I hope we can all agree that Skarmory isn't broken at all.

The problem I have with these 2 arguments is that they only take into account how Mega-Sableye relates to Ghost and Dark while ignoring its effect on the rest of the metagame.

TL/DR When discussing Mega-Sableye, please focus on whether it's unhealthy or not for the entire metagame, rather than only the types it's on.

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

Ghost still struggles with dark even with mega sab. There are still no switchins to hoopa and ghost still has major issues with lum berry bisharp. You can't try and tell me that a type is taking a massive hit by saying "oh it's gunna lose even more to the type it already loses to." That kinda logic is really stupid.

regular sableye is still good lmao. The hazard control will definitely be an issue like stun said but saying that "oh it auto loses to dark now" when it pretty much always lost to dark anyways makes me question your logic.

I agree, Regular Sableye is awesome utility. What I meant was that Mega Sableye was the only viable Pokemon with neutrality to Dark, and Ghost loses a lot of hazard control. So yeah, Ghost literally has no chance of beating Dark. I guess it can use Life-Orb Gengar and Aegislash, but none of these are remotely reliable options.

 

[Kammi]

The fight on Mega-Sableye has been going on for a while now. Ghost AND Dark users have been expecting this suspect, and I'm sure that any self-respecting monotype player has thought about how to deal with the metagame after the mega is banned, if it is banned at all.

On the Ghost side, Taunt regular Sableye does perfectly fine for hazard control and blocking status. It also stops set-up sweepers, so there's an extra plus (Foul Play mega-Sableye does this, too, but that's not the set everyone's in a fuss about anyways). On the Dark side, there are plenty more options. I really don't see it changing that much; it will probably just become a more offensively-oriented type.

Meanwhile, I don't actually believe that mega-Sableye is really BROKEN, just annoying to deal with. Every type (bar Ice and Rock, rip) has perfectly viable checks or counters to this 'mon, and not-letting-it-set-up (read: predicting) is a thing. I mostly agree with the list Laxuy posted earlier, with the addition of Whimsicott for Grass and Toxic Spikes or Tentacruel for Poison. I realize that this isn't a 1v1 fight, but EACH SIDE has 6 pokemon. You cannot act like it is the opponent's 6 pokemon versus your one mega-Sableye check or counter. Eventually, you will figure out that the opponent will preserve their mega Sableye and switch into whatever is most able to take the incoming hit, and *gasp* you can predict their move and switch because you also have six pokemon. I also strongly feel that the "6v6" argument people are not paying attention to the fact that they may have set-up sweepers or walls on their team as well, and if a Pokemon sets up after Sableye has already mega'ed, it's pretty much really easy to get rid of it.

A more logical and visual explanation

Your team: Mon 1 / Mon 2 / Mon 3 / Mon 4 / Mon 5 / Mon 6
Opponent's team: Mon 7 / Mon 8 / Mon 9 / Mon 10 / Mon 11 / mega-Sableye

Mon 3 is a set-up sweeper and Mon 6 is your mega-Sableye check.
Mon 7 is their check to your mega-Sableye check.

YOU WIN: The opponent has mega-Sableye out. You switch to mon 6. The opponent switches out to mon 7 to preserve their wall. You switch to mon 3 on the same turn. You set up. You sweep.

???: The opponent has mega-Sableye out. You switch to mon 6. They have no switchin. You kill mega-Sableye (or take another one of their mons if they want to preserver it). The game continues.

???: The opponent has mega-Sableye out. You switch out to mon 6. The opponent switches out to mon 7 to preserve their wall. You stay in and hit the opponent's switchin with mon 6. Assuming it was a real switchin, you now have to have a switchin to their new threat. The game continues.

YOU LOSE: The opponent has mega-Sableye out. You...don't have anything on your team for this because you either use Rock or Ice or you didn't think about one of the biggest threats in the metagame while building your team. Either way, I'm sorry.

Obviously there are way more possibilities than this, but it just shows how futile a 6v6 argument really is. Just remember that YOU can switch and predict too, not just the mega-Sableye user, and stop using this argument to nullify the existence of certain checks or counters to mega-Sableye.

tl;dr Mega-Sableye is annoying but not broken; every type except rock and ice has viable checks or counters for it. To the "6v6" arguers, please remember that you have 6 pokemon too, and both players can switch. Stop trying to belittle the existence of checks and counters just because the opponent can switch; that's how pokemon works.

 

[scpinion]

Don't let this derail the current discusion on M-Sab, which is some of the best we've had in a while!

Monotype is hosting a tournament through the main Smogon tournaments forum! If you're interested in playing make sure to join ASAP so your spot is guaranteed.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/monotype-tournament-signups.3555181/

 

[vlmufa]

tl;dr Mega-Sableye is annoying but not broken; every type except rock and ice has viable checks or counters for it. To the "6v6" arguers, please remember that you have 6 pokemon too, and both players can switch. Stop trying to belittle the existence of checks and counters just because the opponent can switch; that's how pokemon works.

Even rock and ice can check sableye with ease. Rock has Mega Diancie, which obviously 1v1's Sableye easily even with 1 CM up. And ice has Frost Breath Walrein / Lapras which will always go through Sableye's Calm Minds.


252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. +1 248 HP / 136 SpD Mega Sableye: 192-228 (63.3 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Walrein Frost Breath vs. 248 HP / 136 SpD Mega Sableye on a critical hit: 153-181 (50.4 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As you see even the utility Sableye spread fails to avoid the 2HKO from these pokemon. I have to agree with you on this one, Sableye is definitely not broken.

 

[Dragon Knight]

Even rock and ice can check sableye with ease. Rock has Mega Diancie, which obviously 1v1's Sableye easily even with 1 CM up. And ice has Frost Breath Walrein / Lapras which will always go through Sableye's Calm Minds.


252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. +1 248 HP / 136 SpD Mega Sableye: 192-228 (63.3 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Walrein Frost Breath vs. 248 HP / 136 SpD Mega Sableye on a critical hit: 153-181 (50.4 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As you see even the utility Sableye spread fails to avoid the 2HKO from these pokemon. I have to agree with you on this one, Sableye is definitely not broken.

Anyone who uses Mega Diancie in Rock mono and a walrein WITH Frost Breath in an Ice mono aren't going far with those teams. Rock NEEDS Mega Aggron and Choice Specs Walrein....... I'll just let you figure out how bad that is of an option.


Mega Sableye is an auto win against any electric team, Mega Ampharos' base 165 special attack can 2HKO Mega Sableye (and thats the highest special attack stat electric gets), but if even one calm mind is up, a crit is needed to win. Now the other options are hitting it with fairy moves from Dedenne (only electric Pokemon with Play Rough) or Lanturn with dazzling gleam. The argument of don't let it set up doesn't matter here cause alot of the time it uses calm mind with the prankster ability still in use so the first boost can't be stopped.

252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 115-136 (37.8 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Dedenne Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 120-144 (39.4 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Lanturn Dazzling Gleam vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 120-142 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The only way I see Electric managing to beat just Sableye is with Nasty Plot Thundurus, but with Stealth Rock damage Thundurus is 2HKO'd by +1 Shadow Ball, so it would require amazing predicts and luck to get Thundurus set up enough to kill Mega Sableye, if it is even possible. Now thats pretty much 3 types that can't handle one Pokemon, and I'm pretty sure Good Old Smogon Bird got quick banned for doing something like that

 

[vlmufa]

Anyone who uses Mega Diancie in Rock mono and a walrein WITH Frost Breath in an Ice mono aren't going far with those teams. Rock NEEDS Mega Aggron and Choice Specs Walrein....... I'll just let you figure out how bad that is of an option.

Sorry, but this doesn't look like a good argument to me. You don't really explain anything right here. I'm going to go ahead and tell you, Diancie according to the usage stats is the most common mega on rock. Aggron isn't used all that much anymore since rock is playing more of a hyper offensive style these days. Also Choice Specs Walrein with Frost Breath is the most used Walrein set according to the usage stats as well. I've heard of many great players who laddered up using Mega Diancie rock and Choice Specs Walrein ice and I can tell you their team went farther than you expect.

 

[terrors]

Anyone who uses Mega Diancie in Rock mono and a walrein WITH Frost Breath in an Ice mono aren't going far with those teams. Rock NEEDS Mega Aggron and Choice Specs Walrein....... I'll just let you figure out how bad that is of an option.


Mega Sableye is an auto win against any electric team, Mega Ampharos' base 165 special attack can 2HKO Mega Sableye (and thats the highest special attack stat electric gets), but if even one calm mind is up, a crit is needed to win. Now the other options are hitting it with fairy moves from Dedenne (only electric Pokemon with Play Rough) or Lanturn with dazzling gleam. The argument of don't let it set up doesn't matter here cause alot of the time it uses calm mind with the prankster ability still in use so the first boost can't be stopped.

252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 115-136 (37.8 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Dedenne Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 120-144 (39.4 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Lanturn Dazzling Gleam vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 120-142 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The only way I see Electric managing to beat just Sableye is with Nasty Plot Thundurus, but with Stealth Rock damage Thundurus is 2HKO'd by +1 Shadow Ball, so it would require amazing predicts and luck to get Thundurus set up enough to kill Mega Sableye, if it is even possible. Now thats pretty much 3 types that can't handle one Pokemon, and I'm pretty sure Good Old Smogon Bird got quick banned for doing something like that

Ok so half of your points don't make ANY sense. You say that no one uses mega Diancie even though it stands at 68.26% usage while mega Aggron barely hits 32.24% usage on rock. Meanwhile specs Lapras/Walrein are a must on every good ice team as a check to mega Scizor. I suggest at least taking a look at the usage stats before you make claims like these. http://monotypeps.weebly.com/sprite-gallery.html

Mega Sab vs Electric is a matchup thats been brought up a lot on the forums and many have agreed Mega Sab is a big threat to electric however electric gets access to mold breaker toxic mega Ampharos and specs Magnezone which may not be reliable counters but are still checks.

We have also changed the policy so the 'beats 3 types' argument isn't even valid anymore. Again, please get your facts straight before jumping on the forums.