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Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

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Ok, time for me to make a post again. I'd have done it earlier but (insert excuse about work, lack of time, etc.)

Firstly, the reasons it might be unbanned: If it would help the meta overall, it should be unbanned. And if there isn't a good reason why it is banned, then by default it should be unbanned as unbanning pokemon helps diversity within the tier. (This isn't to be confused with the concept of no change happening unless there's a reason for a change. If unbanning wouldn't increase diversity, then the side pushing for a ban would need to give a solid reason as to why we should unban.)

So basically, the side against unbanning Blaziken has to prove it shouldn't be unbanned. Now, let's bring up the tiering philosophy again:
Tiering Philosophy said:
1. Keep the banlist simple.
No additional complex (i.e. Type-Only) bans.
This maintains the precedent from the recent changes and keeps us inline with Smogon’s philosophy. Aegislash is the lone exception to this rule and is being grandfathered in for now. Being in line with Smogon's philosophies lets us develop a tournament scene in addition to the Ladder and Monotype room tours.

2. Ban elements of the metagame that are broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy.
Examples: Altarianite, Slowbronite, Greninja, Metagrossite, Mawilite, Talonflame.
We will use OU's definitions of broken, uncompetitive, and unhealthy. In addition to those, we will also discuss suspects through the framework of "Does it add to or subract from the metagame?". For examples, see below. This leaves each person open to rationalize their suspect votes within a set framework.

Suspect voters are expected to view and discuss the metagame from the perspective of multiple types, not just a single type. Included in this is the mindset that some matchups are going to be skewed and some types are going to be bad because of the inherent game mechanics such as: the type chart, priority move distribution/weakness, stat distribution among types, number of viable 'mons, and so on.

3. No single type should be overly powerful.
Examples: Damp Rock (Drizzle+Swift Swim) , Smooth Rock (Sand Stream + Sand Rush), CharX (Flying Core), Genesect (Steel Teams)
If a type becomes too powerful we will ban an element that nerfs the type and minimizes collateral damage from other types. This rule will be applied within the limitations of rule #1 (no complex bans). Just because a type has the most usage does not mean it is overly powerful.
As per usual, #1 is important but not hugely complex. It just tells us not to unban Blaze solely on Fire. It's mostly #2 and #3 which will be important here. There's also the idea of whether unbanning would add to or subtract from the metagame, which I will get to later.

Of these, #3 will be the quickest. Fire wouldn't be overly powerful with Blaziken, although it certainly wouldn't be a bad type. It would still struggle against things like Water, however, and Stealth Rock would still be a big issue. The main concern is that Fighting would be very strong. With five pokemon capable of opening holes in teams, the idea that Blaziken could clean up with ease becomes very real. Alternatively, a Swords Dance Blaziken set could easily open holes such that a mon such as Mega Gallade could sweep. It's difficult to imagine types like Steel standing any chance whatsoever against this kind of thing, while more even types such as Bug or Ghost would become far more one-sided.

The main concern, however, is that Blaziken would be broken. That's not to say it would sweep every type. But a quick look at the damage calc is enough to tell us that a large number of types have very little that can respond to Blaze. A set with Flare Blitz, HJK, Knock off and either Protect or SD (depending on whether it's a cleaner or wallbreaker) will inflict a huge amount of damage to the following if used well: Rock, Steel, Ice, Bug, Grass, Dark, Normal, Poison, Ghost, Psychic. That is to say, it will generally get a KO when it comes in. Now, forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I seem to remember the reason we banned Talonflame was because it got a KO every time it came in against Bug, Grass and Fighting. Since banning it Bug and Fighting have done well and Grass is (arguably) still a usable type. And sure, Fighting could revenge kill it with Terrakion just like Bug can revenge kill Talon with M-Pinsir. But that doesn't stop it from being broken.
Moreover, Blaziken has options. Water walls it? It'd be a shame if it could run Thunder Punch and suddenly your Azumarill isn't looking such a great counter any more.

It's not just that though. As people have pointed out, types like Flying and Dragon don't particularly care unless it's a blaze set dedicated to dealing damage to those types in particular (e.g. that replay involving work up blaziken). In other words, Blaziken makes pretty much every game involving Fire or Fighting matchup-reliant. And here's where we get onto the idea of whether it would add to or subtract from the meta. Diversity in monotype is only partially about the pokemon that can be used on each type, and far more about how evenly matched the types are, and reducing the number of usable types will always decrease the overall diversity.

tl;dr Unbanning Blaziken would reduce overall diversity, increase matchup advantage, allow a broken pokemon into the meta and potentially make Fighting overpowered. Therefore, it should not be unbanned.
 
Ok, time for me to make a post again. I'd have done it earlier but (insert excuse about work, lack of time, etc.)

Firstly, the reasons it might be unbanned: If it would help the meta overall, it should be unbanned. And if there isn't a good reason why it is banned, then by default it should be unbanned as unbanning pokemon helps diversity within the tier. (This isn't to be confused with the concept of no change happening unless there's a reason for a change. If unbanning wouldn't increase diversity, then the side pushing for a ban would need to give a solid reason as to why we should unban.)

So basically, the side against unbanning Blaziken has to prove it shouldn't be unbanned. Now, let's bring up the tiering philosophy again:

As per usual, #1 is important but not hugely complex. It just tells us not to unban Blaze solely on Fire. It's mostly #2 and #3 which will be important here. There's also the idea of whether unbanning would add to or subtract from the metagame, which I will get to later.

Of these, #3 will be the quickest. Fire wouldn't be overly powerful with Blaziken, although it certainly wouldn't be a bad type. It would still struggle against things like Water, however, and Stealth Rock would still be a big issue. The main concern is that Fighting would be very strong. With five pokemon capable of opening holes in teams, the idea that Blaziken could clean up with ease becomes very real. Alternatively, a Swords Dance Blaziken set could easily open holes such that a mon such as Mega Gallade could sweep. It's difficult to imagine types like Steel standing any chance whatsoever against this kind of thing, while more even types such as Bug or Ghost would become far more one-sided.

The main concern, however, is that Blaziken would be broken. That's not to say it would sweep every type. But a quick look at the damage calc is enough to tell us that a large number of types have very little that can respond to Blaze. A set with Flare Blitz, HJK, Knock off and either Protect or SD (depending on whether it's a cleaner or wallbreaker) will inflict a huge amount of damage to the following if used well: Rock, Steel, Ice, Bug, Grass, Dark, Normal, Poison, Ghost, Psychic. That is to say, it will generally get a KO when it comes in. Now, forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I seem to remember the reason we banned Talonflame was because it got a KO every time it came in against Bug, Grass and Fighting. Since banning it Bug and Fighting have done well and Grass is (arguably) still a usable type. And sure, Fighting could revenge kill it with Terrakion just like Bug can revenge kill Talon with M-Pinsir. But that doesn't stop it from being broken.
Moreover, Blaziken has options. Water walls it? It'd be a shame if it could run Thunder Punch and suddenly your Azumarill isn't looking such a great counter any more.

It's not just that though. As people have pointed out, types like Flying and Dragon don't particularly care unless it's a blaze set dedicated to dealing damage to those types in particular (e.g. that replay involving work up blaziken). In other words, Blaziken makes pretty much every game involving Fire or Fighting matchup-reliant. And here's where we get onto the idea of whether it would add to or subtract from the meta. Diversity in monotype is only partially about the pokemon that can be used on each type, and far more about how evenly matched the types are, and reducing the number of usable types will always decrease the overall diversity.

tl;dr Unbanning Blaziken would reduce overall diversity, increase matchup advantage, allow a broken pokemon into the meta and potentially make Fighting overpowered. Therefore, it should not be unbanned.
I'm on mobile so I just bolded the relevant thing but that is totally false. Maybe mono just does it backwards from other tiers (if so sorry although that would make no sense) but it's on the people looking to change the status quo to prove why it's better. It shouldn't be on us to prove why the current meta is good, it should be on unban people to prove why the blaziken meta is better
 
I'm on mobile so I just bolded the relevant thing but that is totally false. Maybe mono just does it backwards from other tiers (if so sorry although that would make no sense) but it's on the people looking to change the status quo to prove why it's better. It shouldn't be on us to prove why the current meta is good, it should be on unban people to prove why the blaziken meta is better
If you read the paragraph before the bolded part, you'll see my explanation for why that's the case. Yes, it's normally the case that you have to prove why the meta should change, however the paragraph before was an explanation for why the meta should change unless there's a good reason for it not to. Thus my statement was not incorrect.
 
If you read the paragraph before the bolded part, you'll see my explanation for why that's the case. Yes, it's normally the case that you have to prove why the meta should change, however the paragraph before was an explanation for why the meta should change unless there's a good reason for it not to. Thus my statement was not incorrect.
I read the paragraph, but it should be on unban people to prove healthiness not on ban people to prove unhealthiness. It's banned for a reason, prove why that reason is wrong. Under your system it's easier to change the system than leave as is which doesn't quite make sense. You should need a majority vote to unban not a minority.

What you said bc can't quote on phone
If unbanning wouldn't increase diversity, then the side pushing for a ban would need to give a solid reason as to why we should unban.

Sorta like this but without the conditional. This has already been a standard tiering concept, I don't think I should need to argue this.

edit @ below no actually but apparently no point in arguing this someone with power will point this out
 
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I read the paragraph, but it should be on unban people to prove healthiness not on ban people to prove unhealthiness. It's banned for a reason, prove why that reason is wrong. Under your system it's easier to change the system than leave as is which doesn't quite make sense. You should need a majority vote to unban not a minority.

What you said bc can't quote on phone
If unbanning wouldn't increase diversity, then the side pushing for a ban would need to give a solid reason as to why we should unban.

Sorta like this but without the conditional. This has already been a standard tiering concept, I don't think I should need to argue this.
Look, it's simple. The side wanting to change the status quo has to provide support for said argument. However, in terms of unbans, they generally increase diversity. And increasing diversity is a good thing. So unless there's also a good reason not to unban, then unbanning is a good thing. And if unbanning is a good thing, then it should be done. So in the case of unbans, those arguing against have to provide strong reasons that we shouldn't unban. Yes?
 
im gonna have to disagree you there, because it doesnt seem overpowered on fighting, in fact its more balanced on fighting than on fire. Because blaziken helps out fire with 6-0'ing rock, dealing with chansey and porygon2 on normal which is annoying to fight, and gets hp ice to deal with dragons i guess. Fighting, its like you put a darmanitan and just helped out taking out taking care of the small stuff like dark with mandibuzz+sab core (which fighting can do without blaz), knock off for psychic (which wont do jack unless you can manage to pull off a swords dance which you probably might not have), and deal with bug if you couldnt already.

Im not saying this off ASSUMPTION, which you are probably doing. Dont attack me, im saying this based off evidence of proof of the replays people posted and personal experiance using blaziken, So no its not gonna be "overpowered" on fighting, the type thats its helping the most is fire.

Im not doing this off of assumption ive personally had more success with it on fighting than fire, those things you mention with fire apply to fighting also, reducing team diversity for some of those teams most notably bug being forced to run mega pinsir who wouldnt be a clear cut kill anyway vs fighting as terrakion and cobalion can both come in and twave(cobalion) or force out the pinsir which will instantly reinforce momentum for fighting. its support is also much easier to get on fighting than on fire, ive not posted the replays because they were scrappy battles and my opponent requested i don't use them, you ask me not to attack you when youve gone and done the exact thing on my point trying to out do my point by slandering it
 
So I want to take some of the discussion off of Blaziken and bring some light to a pokemon that isnt used all that much on Bug type. Ive been using a mega scizor bug mono that I made a few months back and have been doing extremely well on ladder with it. The set i have been using is below. Im surprised i see so little mega scizor on bug at the moment. With webs up + plus its great bulky priority and decent speed it makes it a great bulky set up mon and sweeper. Love to hear what you guys think.

scizor-mega.gif

Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off
- Superpower
 
So I want to take some of the discussion off of Blaziken and bring some light to a pokemon that isnt used all that much on Bug type. Ive been using a mega scizor bug mono that I made a few months back and have been doing extremely well on ladder with it. The set i have been using is below. Im surprised i see so little mega scizor on bug at the moment. With webs up + plus its great bulky priority and decent speed it makes it a great bulky set up mon and sweeper. Love to hear what you guys think.

scizor-mega.gif

Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off
- Superpower

Pretty sure the only reason to not use mega scizor on bug is that regular scizor does fine in sweeping and/or winning ice, rock and fairy teams already, so why use mega scizor to dominate them when you can use mega pinsir to screw things over and still have a solid matchup vs those types.

How does this do against ice and rock specificaly though? You would think mega diancie varients of rock and most ice get 6-0d if you have rocks up seeing as max speed superpower should nail the counters pretty hard, 252 hp rhyprior takes a minimum 80% damage rip so just lure it out once or twice then ko since even full hp rhyprior has like a 6% chance of being kod after rocks.
+2 252 Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 348-409 (80.1 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Is using Mega Scizor worth it over using arguabley a better mega in mega pinsir or heracross and just using regular band/lorb scizor to deal with fairy/ice/rock? It might just be me but i'd rather be that troll using occa berry scizor to rek ice and rock with a mega pinsir in the back for everything else, but that might be just me :s
 
I do agree with sabella in that scizor is very under rated on bug, i know i stopped using bug after i lost gene but when im ready i may try rebuilding it with mega scizor, its synergy with bug is pretty solid, with a singular weakness that's easily covered by volc and armaldo its a solid mon, the only thing that is sacrificed is against the likes of char Y, should it come in on scizor something on the bug team is going down, in regards to CM raikou's point, scizor mega and scizor both fulfill different roles, non mega tends to fit the role of a pivot/revenger where as the mega scizor tends to be set up cleaner, both pinsir and scizor have their pros and cons its just deciding what fits your playstyle more
 
I do agree with sabella in that scizor is very under rated on bug, i know i stopped using bug after i lost gene but when im ready i may try rebuilding it with mega scizor, its synergy with bug is pretty solid, with a singular weakness that's easily covered by volc and armaldo its a solid mon, the only thing that is sacrificed is against the likes of char Y, should it come in on scizor something on the bug team is going down, in regards to CM raikou's point, scizor mega and scizor both fulfill different roles, non mega tends to fit the role of a pivot/revenger where as the mega scizor tends to be set up cleaner, both pinsir and scizor have their pros and cons its just deciding what fits your playstyle more
You could always try Scolipede out to check char y, it's a pretty good sweeper, and speed boost is pretty handy to make it harder to revenge kill w/o priority.
 
I ended up using giga drain for that ugly ground matchup and the annoying water matchup but with webs up scizor and hera actually end up doing a nice amount to water too.
 
There are a few ways to deal with it, scarf hera checks, if your feeling lucky galv can try, armaldo can take 2 flamethrowers if set out right but who uses flamethrower, yanmegas ancient power, if volc has a boost or two its fiery dance 2 shots in sun, the bigger problems in bug vs fire is more victini than anything
Sabella thats a fair shout i carry giga drain on my volc for ground
 
Yea volc's set tends to play a role in what yanmega set you run. If ur rockin giga on volc then I could see like a tect/bug buzz/a slash/bug buzz set working for yanmega. That set basically 6-0s dragon if you can keep rocks off and sustain ur own.

Then volc can use its filler move to give it a good matchup against a
type it chooses. Hp ground and giga are 2 solid options.

As for people saying mega pins outclasses mega scizor. That's a really ignorant statement because non generic bug is miles better than the classic webs pinsir cheese that was way more effective when genesect was around. I prefer mega Heracross
to pinsir any day of the week and mega scizor under webs is nothing to mess with either. Pinsir just isn't that good anymore. Fighting can still be beaten without pinsir as long as u get webs up because mega Hera ohkos everything on fighting with webs up and can take a hit you need it to. Heras coverage lets you cover other types with volc and yanmega as well which is awesome.

Moral of the story....Pinsir is still good but it's not at the level where some people consider it to be where it's outclassing the other bug megas. Those days are over.


EDIT: I forgot to add hp ice to yanmegas move set
 
Ok guys, the council have been monitoring the thread and watching all the replays everyone submitted on Blaziken.

We just finished our vote where we had 3 options:
1) Keep Blaziken banned
2) Hold a series of suspect tours with Blaziken unbanned where the winner(s) and council members vote
3) Suspect Test Blakizen

It was a unanimous decision to keep Blaziken banned. Thanks for keeping the discussion mostly on topic and civil.
 
Yea volc's set tends to play a role in what yanmega set you run. If ur rockin giga on volc then I could see like a tect/bug buzz/a slash/bug buzz set working for yanmega. That set basically 6-0s dragon if you can keep rocks off and sustain ur own.

Then volc can use its filler move to give it a good matchup against a
type it chooses. Hp ground and giga are 2 solid options.

As for people saying mega pins outclasses mega scizor. That's a really ignorant statement because non generic bug is miles better than the classic webs pinsir cheese that was way more effective when genesect was around. I prefer mega Heracross
to pinsir any day of the week and mega scizor under webs is nothing to mess with either. Pinsir just isn't that good anymore. Fighting can still be beaten without pinsir as long as u get webs up because mega Hera ohkos everything on fighting with webs up and can take a hit you need it to. Heras coverage lets you cover other types with volc and yanmega as well which is awesome.

Moral of the story....Pinsir is still good but it's not at the level where some people consider it to be where it's outclassing the other bug megas. Those days are over.


EDIT: I forgot to add hp ice to yanmegas move set
Gotta agree with wanka, tbh as much use as webs can be i never found them a total use to me when i used bug, i found them to be to much of a focal point to the degree that the player would be to dependant on them, my personal view on bug is that the offencive bug layout is dying with the more balanced mega hera bug taking more spotlight
 
As a Psychic user, I always found Mega Bro to be underwhelming. That being said, I never had the patience to try anything not named Hyper Offense and with the plethora of special attackers that Psychic possesses, I always felt that the type benefited more from having a physical, attacking Mega such as Gallade or Medicham.

I tried DD Mega Latios once (Mel: making mistakes, so you don't have to.) It was terrible. Mega Latias is not one I've used and Magic Guard LO Zam outclasses the Mega tenfold, unless the ability plays can be worked.

Scarf Trace Gardevoir, in my opinion, is better than Mega Garden. They both sweep Dark without any problems and the extra speed on the former helps it KO faster threats such as Weavile, Gengar, the Latis and many others.

I don't even want to talk about Mega Meta (it's bad). Hasn't helped me beat Fairy in any situation, which is the type I struggle with most, tied with Ice. Yes, I lose to Ice. Don't judge me.

To summarise: Mega Bro is good if you have the patience and no need for the physical attacking strength.
 
The issues people seemed to have was that if you ran crobro with rest it its hard to status it to wear it down. And set up sweepers with water resists only exsist on a few types.
 
First off, running Restalk, CM and an attacking move doesn't make the mon Cro-whatever. That's reserved solely for Suicune.

Rest Slowbro with set up and max physical defense investment is ridiculously hard to break. I supported the ban and I do not support an unban test, unless Gen 7 blows its utility to smithereens.
 
Ever since I started Monotype, there has only been one Pokemon that has pissed me off so much. That was Zard X. I disliked a few others, but no other Pokemon comes close. Though, if I had to pick a Pokemon that was second to Zard X, it would be Mega-Slowbro. CM, Scald, Slack Off, Psyshock was all it needed to win. You have to pack Toxic to beat this thing because that physical bulk is FUCKING INSANE. Add a few CM boosts to it, which it can get easily because it sets up on like crazy high % of physical attackers, and you could only hope for a crit to destroy it, but OH WAIT! You can't! Lol, Shell Armor. Slowbro can also make use of its Oblivious ability to get around Taunt. Did I mention you practically have to pack Toxic to beat it? It belongs on two top-tier types that have reliable Heal Bell support. It may not look that broken, but I remember fighting this thing in tournaments and literally just quitting because I had no way to beat it.

252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 179-213 (45.4 - 54%) Not a common nature + item combo, but I'm just displaying its bulk.
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 154-183 (39 - 46.4%)
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 180-212 (45.6 - 53.8%)
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 108-128 (27.4 - 32.4%)
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 334-394 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
 
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