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Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

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ThimoTheUltimateBOBO said:
I don't see a problem with either Flying, They get beaten quite easily by BoltBeam
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Steel is beaten by ground/fire combo, Ghost is beaten by knock off spam, Bug is beaten by strong fire attacks, whats your point?

I posted that not by personal opinion, but becos the statistics: in the Type Usage Graph the usage of flying is 2,5 points more than the 2nd post (psychic) and even 4,5 points more than the 3rd post (steel), and that trend dont seem to decrease, rather the curve seems to go even higher for the next month. We had another situation like dat in August.

Also, if you check the matchup tables, u can see flying have not bad matchups at all, the worst it have is again ice and then its only 41.8%. All the other element types have bad matchups instead.

Maybe those calcs mean nothing, but is something people need to take in account
 
Flying is diverse and easy to use. I don't consider it overpowered. It's just understandably popular. The metagame is bound to fluctuate and Flying is no exception. If we find that Flying continues on this trend next month it might be a good idea to take a closer look at it, but for now I see no issue.

A handful of changes I notice:

Fire is back to where it should be. I'm still not sure why it dropped so much in October.

Electivire has overtaken Luxray in usage on Electric. Not by much, but it's still slightly more common.

Hoopa-U continues to rise in usage on Dark.


Nothing looks that concerning at the moment. I'm still fairly happy with the state of the metagame and I don't see anything that I'd seriously consider banning or unbanning.
 
Flyings just balanced and as thimo said it is quite easily beaten by boltbeam, things such as Kyu-B put tremendous amounts of pressure on flying the only way to beat it is with twave,flying isnt 'unbalancing the meta' its just the type has its bases covered the high usage is due to that not anything else it can cover most thing that threaten it. Also what would be the best thing to ban on it without completely nerfing to much
 
bruh flying got more usage now than back than when mega zard x was released, thats a huuugee boost, but flying is flying. But im disapointed, if you look at october and november, the pokemon used are the same 6 as usual, nothing new or original on the table, not saying its bad, its just really bland.
 
The-Vale said:
Flyings just balanced and as thimo said it is quite easily beaten by boltbeam, things such as Kyu-B put tremendous amounts of pressure on flying the only way to beat it is with twave,flying isnt 'unbalancing the meta' its just the type has its bases covered the high usage is due to that not anything else it can cover most thing that threaten it. Also what would be the best thing to ban on it without completely nerfing to much
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Now what u say it, it can be funny but I find nothing inherently broken on it tho, i think is just the combination of strong mons the type has + good deffogers for its SR weakness. So to say the truth i dont know what part of it could be nerfed.
 
Its more the core that its defogger and setter has, that allows pressure to build up but clever plays to bait out the specific things makes it easy to play around, the meta as a whole will proabably never reach a true balance, we just need to keep it at sane levels and not let things get to out of hand in terms of power, also if you look at the matchup tables in terms of power flying isn't the number one that belongs to ground

Also on another note given volcanions recent announcement is it worth running some preliminary tests on it?
 
We should not talk about a mon that is not released atm in Volcanion. Wait in about a week when it is released to start discussing since we are unsure about its affect on the meta and it would just be theorymoning to discuss it before it has even been released. We would not know if its ban worthy right away if Volcanion is very broken it will be quick ban if its not broken it will stay in the meta. I would refrain from discussing a Mon that hasn't even been released yet. Everyone wait until Volcanion get released to start discussing it.
 
According to serebii, Volcanion won't even be distributed until some time next year. It's far too early to be testing anything. I agree with iVid's overall point though, just wait until it's released and it's had some time in the metagame. For now, don't even worry about Volcanion.
 
Does anyone have an explanation as to why steel's usage hasn't dropped yet? It continually being 3rd and 4th in usage, although dropping in viability. I've had trouble using steel on the ladder lately, especially when it has a tough matchup against the common types, including flying,water,fighting,ground, and having a somewhat tough time vs mega sableye and volcarona bug. Another problem I've found with steel is its a bit too passive, and the standard steel team of skarm / heatran /scizor /doublade/ scarf excadrill and magnezone is a bit too weak to break walls like zapdos gliscor rotom-w porygon2 chansey and the likes (scizor unboosted of course). Bisharp is rly the only common strong pokemon, especially with life orb, but arguably needs time after time to also set sd to make big impacts. (I'm kind of also separating HO steel from this category bc custap is only used 14% of the time,and taunt 12% on skarmory and I thought that should signify hyper offense well enough, and is therefore also uncommon.) These pokemon make up most steel teams, according to the usage stats, but I rly havent been seeing these lower used pokemon that have pretty strong unboosted potential. I've never found steel to have that mega gardevoir/latios for psychic, specs keldeo, mega medicham, life orb crawdaunt or weavile, choice band dnite/ lando i. Steel had it with aegislash, megalucario, mega mawile, genesect, and mega metagross but I havent been able to find a nice replacement. Differentiating wallbreakers from setup sweepers is what makes steels glaring passiveness. Here are some cool sets and pokemon steel can run,which, in my eyes, make it more aggressive and immediately threatening, that have little to no usage.

metagross.gif

Metagross @ Choice Band
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Bullet Punch
- Earthquake/Pursuit/Hammer arm/Ice punch

Metagross probably is the strongest unboosted attack steel has to offer, and provides immense offensive pressure, especially if combined with Magnezone, which traps Skarmory and other notable steel types that can wall metagross' dual stabs. Running ice punch assists in punching holes into flying teams unless u feel like sacking to zard and lando i every time u get a kill.

lucario.gif

Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Ice Punch

Lucario is a pokemon I've been able to try out, and swept with against flying teams, being able to setup with, although taking prediction. Iron tail can even be added to kill unsuspecting venusaur (another annoying pokemon for steel), and has potential to sweep fighting as well with bullet punch and extreme speed. This set is technically also a setup sweeper, but I put it as a wallbreaker becuase life orb closecombat can already dent teams.

durant.gif

Durant @ Choice Band/lum berry
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- X-Scissor
- Superpower/Hone claws
- Crunch/ substitute


Durant combined with a magnezone trapper blows flying apart, assuming you hopefully dont miss, and dents resist as well as doing loads of damage to neutral defensive pokemon that annoy steel, including swampert and mega sableye

magnezone.gif

Magnezone @ Choice Specs
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Ice]/Hidden Power [Fire](not rly recommended unless a steel's ferrothorn core is very annoying)

This is essentially the same set as the common choice scarf magnezone, although much stronger. It kind of irks me I still see sturdy magnezone, as magnet pull helps with aforementioned trapping skarmory and popping heatran's balloons. The BIG downside to this set however is not outspeeding ground/flying types that threaten steel a ton, including garchomp, zard y, and lando i, so caution when using specs magnezone. Sturdy would work well in this situation but it rly comes down to pro/cons

jirachi.gif

Jirachi @ Expert Belt
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 84 Atk / 252 SpA / 172 Spe
Mild Nature
- Iron Head
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Energy Ball
- Icy Wind/Thunderbolt/Moonblast

I saw iGlack using this set and loved it immediately. Iron head is a nice bluff and also is obligatory stab, but my favorite things about this set is Max speed hidden power ground ohkos heatran/magnezone, and energy ball can OHKO swampert and gastrodon, two terribly annoying pokemon to face for steel, especially since mega metagross' ban. Icy wind is nice to ko gliscor, while thunderbolt beats skarmory, and moonblast can beat sableye(unboosted) while hitting mandibuzz.

scizor-mega.gif

Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Superpower

This set is pretty common on HO steel, but yet to see its use on balance steel, simply because its balance steel. Because this set is seen a lot i doubt i need much of an explanation, but sweeping normal and breaking through porygon2 especially. Fast superpower also surprise OHKOS heatran. Scizor is technically also a setup sweeper, but this set can also break walls quickly, like bisharp

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Tldr In my opinion steel doesn't deserve its place as 3rd in usage because it loses to the best types and people shouldnt think that just because a type is high in usage means its equal to that in viability.

OHOHOH I almost forgot. This also applies to flying because it can also lose to these indirect disadvantages, the dragon v flying and normal v flying matchup is heavily in dragons/normals favor but isnt too evident on type charts or supereffective typing. Fighting vs water, Fairy vs psychic, and Psychic vs ground all have these same characteristics, just like steel has a bunch of trouble vs flying. I honestly cant tell if everyone in the monotype community realizes there is more to matchup than simple stab advantage.

A good answer as to why steel is 3rd in usage, or some more potential steel wallbreakers are highly appreciated.
 
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Paleo said:
metagross.gif

Metagross @ Choice Band
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Bullet Punch
- Earthquake/Pursuit/Hammer arm/Ice punch

Metagross probably is the strongest unboosted attack steel has to offer, and provides immense offensive pressure, especially if combined with Magnezone, which traps Skarmory and other notable steel types that can wall metagross' dual stabs. Running ice punch assists in punching holes into flying teams unless u feel like sacking to zard and lando i every time u get a kill.

lucario.gif

Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Ice Punch

Lucario is a pokemon I've been able to try out, and swept with against flying teams, being able to setup with, although taking prediction. Iron tail can even be added to kill unsuspecting venusaur (another annoying pokemon for steel), and has potential to sweep fighting as well with bullet punch and extreme speed. This set is technically also a setup sweeper, but I put it as a wallbreaker becuase life orb closecombat can already dent teams.

jirachi.gif

Jirachi @ Expert Belt
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 84 Atk / 252 SpA / 172 Spe
Mild Nature
- Iron Head
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Energy Ball
- Icy Wind/Thunderbolt/Moonblast

I saw iGlack using this set and loved it immediately. Iron head is a nice bluff and also is obligatory stab, but my favorite things about this set is Max speed hidden power ground ohkos heatran/magnezone, and energy ball can OHKO swampert and gastrodon, two terribly annoying pokemon to face for steel, especially since mega metagross' ban. Icy wind is nice to ko gliscor, while thunderbolt beats skarmory, and moonblast can beat sableye(unboosted) while hitting mandibuzz.
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1: lol 6 months off of PS! changes a man. hows it goin errybody

Aight so getting down to business, i see where you're getting at with the general topic of the post and i have to say I agree with the basic idea of it, however i do differ with some of your sets. The sets I excluded from the list above are sets that I've used *with slight adaptation* and found that they are pretty decent contributors to the team. The sets that WERE included, however, intrigue me.

Metagross
​
First off, Metagross looks good on paper, but in practice, I find that it is easily stopped. Take some of steels biggest threats, for example Hydreigon.

252 SpA Expert Belt Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 334-396 (110.9 - 131.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 250-295 (83 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Now okay, you could argue that its not meant to be specially defensive and it's real spotlight is the defense/attack, but before i get into calcs, frankly what steel type isn't physically defensive? Sure, some of the more offensive mons like Lucario and Durant may be pretty frail on the defense side, but they're equally bad in the special defense side as well. The only steel mons legal in monotype with a SpDef stat of 100 and above are Jirachi, Ferrothorn, Bronzong, Bastiodon, Probopass, Escavalier, Empoleon, Heatran, and Mega Scizor, and in all but Empoleon, the defense stat is either higher or around the same (within 5 points). I'll come back to this is in a couple seconds, on to calcs with a prominent Physical threat, Landorus Therian.

252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 312-368 (103.6 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 73-86 (24.2 - 28.5%) -- 97.5% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 136-160 (45.1 - 53.1%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO
Frankly, it's defense, while certainly ok, isn't exactly letting it keep up with the competition. It gets bogged down to easily to really justify having it be there, certainly with no real recovery options (what, rest talk? lol). With the statement said above, there is no real point in running something that gets bogged down and has about 10 other things doing its job. Your attack can be as high as it wants, but it doesn't help if you get watered down quickly with no speed to make use of said attack stat.

Lucario
Lucario is a piece of paper that can't redeem itself with speed. When the tiers most competent threats are around or above 100, Lucario's measly base 90 isn't doing it many favors. Even before that, lando-t gives you the dick by being 1 base speed above you. A slow glass cannon is frankly just a piece of glass, and glass v lando-t doesnt work out very well. It isn't even really a glass cannon, it's offensive stats are relatively mediocre (maybe slightly above par). Without the set up, you aren't going to be putting in much work, in which case you have the same kind of problem as Bisharp:

"Bisharp is rly the only common strong pokemon, especially with life orb, but arguably needs time after time to also set sd to make big impacts."
-Paleo

Except in this case, Bisharp has a higher Attack stat, enough speed to rival Lucario (if there are any threats in the 81-89 speed range let me know), and a stronger stab move, letting you KO things like Victini and Volc with relatively moderate success.

JirachiNothing really to say about this one because I haven't seen it in action, but it looks promising enough. A Max SpDef set w/ moonblast is one of your only options for beating Hydreigon if you don't have Durant. Wish/Protect SpDef is extremely useful on it's own, but the added bonus of bopping hydreigon makes it pretty stand out. If you want to run this set, i might recommend running 240 speed, or a +speed nature such as hasty.



One recommendation i have is that LO/EBelt Cobalion can be extremely useful. As being the only pokemon legal for steel, other than durant, that can outspeed a non-scarf hydreigon, that close combat can hit especially hard. Stone Edge can be useful, as it also outspeeds Charizard. Frankly it seems like a waste to let one of your fastest pokemon sit alone as a support. After using it for a while ive come to the conclusion that it's pretty helpful. You can easily add taunt onto the set if you want to deal with more annoying problems (chansey, pory 2, etc).

tl;dr, pretty rockin post, some of the sets/pokes could use some reconsideration. lucario is just a piece of dull glass and metagross is boring and lame

plz lik and fite the powah
 
I agree that Steel is no longer a top tier type. It has some nice matchups, but it loses to a lot of overused types. As a result I think generic steel is unviable if you want to win a lot of games. I use a lot of unorthodox sets to make my steel team work. For example, I use a calm mind jirachi to help with my dark, dragon and water matchup. Scarf Heatran is a nice surprise factor and can be hard for a lot of teams to deal with. Assault vest empoleon helps me switch into water types (and threaten them with grass knot) and it also patches up the volcarona weakness with rock slide.
 
I wouldn't be so naive to say that steel struggles with fighting because if the Keldeo isn't sub cm than steel arguably has the better matchup. doublade is going to wall 4 out of 6 mons on a fighting team at least and with mag being able to get free momentum on Keldeo, doublade and scizor can do major damage. If Keldeo dips to low by either having to take an emergency hit or steels ability to stack hazards, all mega sciz needs is an SD to just blow thru everything. And if it's not scizor it's doublade.

As far as bug goes, Steel will still generally have a solid matchup
bar a quiver dance 3 attacks volc which I don't think anyone else has had the balls to run except myself. If it has a move to brek trams balloon and then hit u with an hp ground, then yeah, ur boned. But for that to happen they would either have to be QD 3 attacks or buzz / hp ground with no fire stab which kinda speaks for itself. But yeah the other matchups are an uphill battle for sure unless ur opp chokes.

Once I get home I'm gunna post a durant set that has given me some Decent success as of late.
 
Going to chime in and agree with the recent discussion on steel teams. The cause for this is 3-fold in my opinion:

1) No Immunity Core. Doublade is a reasonable sub for Aegi, but obviously doesn't fill the same role. Breaking the steel core is significantly easier when you don't have to worry about Aegislash messing you up.

2) No Crazy Strong 'mons. Paleo brought this up earlier, and it is really important. When Genesect, Mega-Mawile, and Mega-Metagross were around, steel teams had access to immediate power that could easily sweep teams, often w/o a turn of setup. This was especially important because you often had to whittle your team down just to break through the defensive backbone mentioned above. It was really easy to (read: broken asf) bring m-Maw in, Intimidate something, SD, and sweep someone after the entire team was chipped from Aegi/Doublade + Skarm + Heatran (+ Ferro). It was similar for m-Meta, but w/o the SD. Doing this with Scizor is significantly harder, especially against the top types where they have reliable answers to +2 Bullet Punch.

3) The Metagame has Shifted w/ ORAS. We got some new offensive threats that are tough to beat for steel teams. Things like m-Lop, m-Sab, m-Gallade and Hoopa-U (sometimes) are all a tough matchup and can overwhelm the immunity core. Moreover, some of the most common answers to m-Sab are tough to beat with a Steel team (e.g. sub-cm Keldeo on Fighting, or just sub + boosting move in general).

For these reasons, I've shifted over to an Offensive, hazard stack Steel team. It still has some rough matchups (Fighting being the worst), but I find myself winning more often with that than an updated version of the balanced teams I used previously.

As a side note, I think Steel is inflated above where it should be relative to the metagame, while types like Normal and Ground are significantly deflated. Obviously I don't know for sure, but I think the lack of Normal and Steel on the ladder is due to the (relatively) fixed nature of team building with those if you want to make a team that is highly successful against many types.

edit: Feels good to make a post that isn't an announcement or policy related! :D
 
upload_2015-12-15_15-24-32.png

Durant @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide
- X-Scissor
- Aerial Ace


The legend in the flesh... Like a lot of people have stated, the 100% generic steel just isn't as effective anymore so I wanted to spice things up a bit and utilize durant to cover some of steels weaknesses. It does have a pretty awkward speed tier at 109 but with a scarf it does outspeed the majority of the meta bar scarf lati. The main two moves in the set are indeed rock slide and aerial ace. Rock slide comes in at a wopping 72% accuracy after the hustle affect which makes it about as accurate as focus miss. It does help out with fire though which is really nice. As long as you can hit a few rockslides and you play ur heatran well, You have a somewhat decent chance to get a win vs fire. I just run Stealth rock on my heatran so I can 1v1 torkoal and keep them up which makes durants life a lot easier.

The other standout part of the set is in fact aerial for the matchups against fighting. If in fact you somehow fuck up with doublade, mega sciz, and mag, as long as you have stacked some hazards and chipped down keldeo and terrack, Durant can pull out a late game clean because AA doesn't miss. So it does bolster that matchup against fighting which is always nice.

Another concern that has come up for steel is volcarona. If in fact you get boned by an hp ground set and heatran gets bopped, you always have this little guy in the back to potentially save the game for you and stop volc in its tracks. If it's the standard bulkarona set and it does find its way to +2 than you still would outspeed that as well so yeah durant is an emergency check to those pesky anti steel volc's.

X scissor and Iron head are for stabs and what not. XS does a decent job against psy since you will most likely be replacing bisharp if you were to use durant. it comes in on hoopa, a -1 tini, and garde and just gets a kill so thats p cool as well.

All in all it's a decent mon that has some cool niches and is p fun to use. I would love to see some other mons/sets for steel that anyone could come up with as well. Paleo's were nice as well.
 
I love the way the discussion in this thread is developing!

One thing I wanted to bring up for the discussion is the notion of teams for each type more or less being "solved", to where the best 5-6 mons for each type are set. This is less evident in the top 5 types (flying/steel/psy/fight/water), partly because there are many options for these teams and several ways a team can be formed while still being effective (or in the case of fighting, 8+ HO pokemon that can all be useful in monotype).

Once you get below these though, the "mid-tier" types (bug/ground/dark/dragon/normal/fairy, and arguably fire) have the top 6 mons at a use percentage a good 20 pts. higher than the 7th most used mon. That's not to say that any pokemon besides these 6 can be used effectively, but unless there's a niche or unique move/ability/typing that they offer, you're typically better off running these 6.

The low-tier types either have many mons that are hovering above the 30-40% usage range (rock/grass/electric, sorta ice) or are strapped for options and exhibit the same phenomenon that we see in the mid-tier types (poison, ghost).

I believe this notion of "solving" monotype is the reason for a couple of other things I've noticed as well:

1. The reason people are calling for bans and unbans could partly have to do with "mixing things up", as types would have to adapt to a new pokemon and may swap movesets/pokemon to deal with it (we'll see how Volcanion plays into this in a few months)
2. The top types could see the highest usage partly because they are the best types overall in mono, but also because there are actual options that you can teambuild with and not actively make your team much worse than the standard. Flying, for instance, has enough variety to where you could run any combination of Therian/Incarnate genies, a choice of 2 equally viable megas, and enough support pokemon (Zappy/Skarm/Toge/Gliscor/Mandi) to where two different flying teams could have only 1-2 identical pokemon, leading to more diverse matches. This could also account for why ground and fire saw huge up-and-down spikes in the past months (since playing the same 6-7 mons on these teams could get boring fast).

What do you all think? And if it is the case that some teams are "solved", what can we do about adding or encouraging diversity short of banning/unbanning a pokemon or two?
 
iWanka said:
bar a quiver dance 3 attacks volc which I don't think anyone else has had the balls to run except myself.
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I run/ran QD 3 attacks volc on my bug, and i agree with arash that it does seem the top types tend to be the most diverse and i think that maybe given a bit more time we could see changes occur naturally one example is how ground did develop a megarupt variant that is still pretty viable but also when you look at the middle types they are all ones that have been hit hard by certain bans such as fairy losing mawile although a long time ago its never gotten to the same level as it once was. But sometimes all it takes is one core challenge or one person to peak with some unorthadox sets to mix the meta up and breathe fresh air into some of these types usages
 
Arash said:
I love the way the discussion in this thread is developing!

One thing I wanted to bring up for the discussion is the notion of teams for each type more or less being "solved", to where the best 5-6 mons for each type are set. This is less evident in the top 5 types (flying/steel/psy/fight/water), partly because there are many options for these teams and several ways a team can be formed while still being effective (or in the case of fighting, 8+ HO pokemon that can all be useful in monotype).

Once you get below these though, the "mid-tier" types (bug/ground/dark/dragon/normal/fairy, and arguably fire) have the top 6 mons at a use percentage a good 20 pts. higher than the 7th most used mon. That's not to say that any pokemon besides these 6 can be used effectively, but unless there's a niche or unique move/ability/typing that they offer, you're typically better off running these 6.

The low-tier types either have many mons that are hovering above the 30-40% usage range (rock/grass/electric, sorta ice) or are strapped for options and exhibit the same phenomenon that we see in the mid-tier types (poison, ghost).

I believe this notion of "solving" monotype is the reason for a couple of other things I've noticed as well:

1. The reason people are calling for bans and unbans could partly have to do with "mixing things up", as types would have to adapt to a new pokemon and may swap movesets/pokemon to deal with it (we'll see how Volcanion plays into this in a few months)
2. The top types could see the highest usage partly because they are the best types overall in mono, but also because there are actual options that you can teambuild with and not actively make your team much worse than the standard. Flying, for instance, has enough variety to where you could run any combination of Therian/Incarnate genies, a choice of 2 equally viable megas, and enough support pokemon (Zappy/Skarm/Toge/Gliscor/Mandi) to where two different flying teams could have only 1-2 identical pokemon, leading to more diverse matches. This could also account for why ground and fire saw huge up-and-down spikes in the past months (since playing the same 6-7 mons on these teams could get boring fast).

What do you all think? And if it is the case that some teams are "solved", what can we do about adding or encouraging diversity short of banning/unbanning a pokemon or two?
Click to expand...

I thought your observation was sorta obvious to anyone starting Monotype but if you are making a post almost post ORAS about it, then I guess it helps people not super familiar with the meta. Alexis approves.

On that note, I think the more experienced players should not only test out stuff but also share their findings whether here like Paleo and Wanka did or as an RMT if proposing/showing a different style altogether like say HO Ghost (I know it sucks, just an example)
 
638-Cobalion.png

Cobalion @ Expert Belt/Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 64 HP / 192 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Iron Head/Aerial Ace
- Stone Edge
- Taunt

(for steel lol)

Gone are the days where silly Cobalion is delegated to the lowly job of "support". With the increasing prevalence of annoying af normal and the devil that is E-Belt Hydreigon, it's time for the fastest legal steel type (tied with Durant) to be recognized for what it really is: a (relatively) quick, physical threat that can do wonders in breaking normal.

EVs: 192+ speed allows Cobalion just enough speed to outspeed max speed base 100s. This is mainly geared to both guarantee an outspeed against annoying mons like Mew and Zapdos, and also is just enough to outspeed Charizard, an extremely frustrating Pokemon to deal with, while easily outspeeding the bane of steel itself, E-Belt Hydreigon. Taunt stops Chansey and Pory 2 in their tracks, allowing you to deal heavy damage for another team member, most likely Mega Scizor or Bisharp, to finish off later.

252 Atk Expert Belt Cobalion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 485-571 (75.5 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Expert Belt Cobalion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 204 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 218-259 (58.4 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Expert Belt Cobalion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Zapdos: 175-209 (45.6 - 54.5%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Expert Belt Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 403-475 (124 - 146.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Expert Belt Cobalion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 158-187 (37.3 - 44.2%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery *What's it gonna do to you, BB? FOUL PLAY? nice +1 tbh*

E-Belt is a safer option especially against types like Normal, allowing you to keep the pressure up longer, but Life Orb can be used interchangeably, if you wish to deal more damage. Highlighting the Zapdos matchup, Coba can easily deal with Zapdos after rocks, w/ or w/o LO, which is more than can be said with a plethora of other "offensive steel threats".

While iWanka 's Durant is amazing for dealing with volc (hoping it hits rip hustle), Cobalion is another way to deal with it. While only being useful if volc is at base, it still is able to outspeed it and OHKO w/ stone edge.

Iron Head is for general stab, yet can be replaced with Aerial Ace if you feel you need to strengthen your fighting matchup, though it would be more useful as a cleanup in that case due to the speed and power (plus type advantage) of most fighting types.

That was a fun meme, I hope we get more team ideas tbh these are great. Thanks to iWanka for kicking it off and Paleo for getting everyone thinking!!11!one

~
 
To be Honnest, I prefer the special set for Cobalion in Steel team.

Cobalion @ Expert Belt/Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Sp.Atk / 252 Spe/ 4 Def
Timid Nature
- Vol Switch
- Hidden Power Ice
- Flash Canon
- Taunt/ Focus Blast


Why this set can be good for Steel?

Just because one Pokemon called Landorus Earth Power/Focus Blast is able to destroy mono Steel Alone.
In addition with the fact HP Ice 0HKO Landorus, you have the opportunity to surprise your opponent with that set.

Ok, but is HP ice only for Landorus?
Nope, There is something called M-Chomp who can destroy too Steel teams.
But here, HP Ice doesn't 0Hko all the time (SpA Life Orb Cobalion Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Garchomp: 312-369 (87.3 - 103.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock).

Well, some people will say there is Gastro and Seismitoad to tank this set and they'll be right.


Ps 1: Vol Switch has 50% 2HKO M-Zard Y.



 
For some reason I haven't been getting any notifications for some odd reason, and when I came back here I saw the forum blow up lol.

Anyways, I can agree steel's viability has went down, and I too am a bit baffled at why its still considered a top type.
Paleo said:
Does anyone have an explanation as to why steel's usage hasn't dropped yet? It continually being 3rd and 4th in usage, although dropping in viability. I've had trouble using steel on the ladder lately, especially when it has a tough matchup against the common types, including flying,water,fighting,ground, and having a somewhat tough time vs mega sableye and volcarona bug. Another problem I've found with steel is its a bit too passive, and the standard steel team of skarm / heatran /scizor /doublade/ scarf excadrill and magnezone is a bit too weak to break walls like zapdos gliscor rotom-w porygon2 chansey and the likes (scizor unboosted of course). Bisharp is rly the only common strong pokemon, especially with life orb, but arguably needs time after time to also set sd to make big impacts. (I'm kind of also separating HO steel from this category bc custap is only used 14% of the time,and taunt 12% on skarmory and I thought that should signify hyper offense well enough, and is therefore also uncommon.) These pokemon make up most steel teams, according to the usage stats, but I rly havent been seeing these lower used pokemon that have pretty strong unboosted potential. I've never found steel to have that mega gardevoir/latios for psychic, specs keldeo, mega medicham, life orb crawdaunt or weavile, choice band dnite/ lando i. Steel had it with aegislash, megalucario, mega mawile, genesect, and mega metagross but I havent been able to find a nice replacement. Differentiating wallbreakers from setup sweepers is what makes steels glaring passiveness. Here are some cool sets and pokemon steel can run,which, in my eyes, make it more aggressive and immediately threatening, that have little to no usage.

metagross.gif

Metagross @ Choice Band
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Bullet Punch
- Earthquake/Pursuit/Hammer arm/Ice punch

Metagross probably is the strongest unboosted attack steel has to offer, and provides immense offensive pressure, especially if combined with Magnezone, which traps Skarmory and other notable steel types that can wall metagross' dual stabs. Running ice punch assists in punching holes into flying teams unless u feel like sacking to zard and lando i every time u get a kill.

lucario.gif

Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Ice Punch

Lucario is a pokemon I've been able to try out, and swept with against flying teams, being able to setup with, although taking prediction. Iron tail can even be added to kill unsuspecting venusaur (another annoying pokemon for steel), and has potential to sweep fighting as well with bullet punch and extreme speed. This set is technically also a setup sweeper, but I put it as a wallbreaker becuase life orb closecombat can already dent teams.

durant.gif

Durant @ Choice Band/lum berry
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- X-Scissor
- Superpower/Hone claws
- Crunch/ substitute


Durant combined with a magnezone trapper blows flying apart, assuming you hopefully dont miss, and dents resist as well as doing loads of damage to neutral defensive pokemon that annoy steel, including swampert and mega sableye

magnezone.gif

Magnezone @ Choice Specs
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Ice]/Hidden Power [Fire](not rly recommended unless a steel's ferrothorn core is very annoying)

This is essentially the same set as the common choice scarf magnezone, although much stronger. It kind of irks me I still see sturdy magnezone, as magnet pull helps with aforementioned trapping skarmory and popping heatran's balloons. The BIG downside to this set however is not outspeeding ground/flying types that threaten steel a ton, including garchomp, zard y, and lando i, so caution when using specs magnezone. Sturdy would work well in this situation but it rly comes down to pro/cons

jirachi.gif

Jirachi @ Expert Belt
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 84 Atk / 252 SpA / 172 Spe
Mild Nature
- Iron Head
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Energy Ball
- Icy Wind/Thunderbolt/Moonblast

I saw iGlack using this set and loved it immediately. Iron head is a nice bluff and also is obligatory stab, but my favorite things about this set is Max speed hidden power ground ohkos heatran/magnezone, and energy ball can OHKO swampert and gastrodon, two terribly annoying pokemon to face for steel, especially since mega metagross' ban. Icy wind is nice to ko gliscor, while thunderbolt beats skarmory, and moonblast can beat sableye(unboosted) while hitting mandibuzz.

scizor-mega.gif

Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Superpower

This set is pretty common on HO steel, but yet to see its use on balance steel, simply because its balance steel. Because this set is seen a lot i doubt i need much of an explanation, but sweeping normal and breaking through porygon2 especially. Fast superpower also surprise OHKOS heatran. Scizor is technically also a setup sweeper, but this set can also break walls quickly, like bisharp

-----------------

Tldr In my opinion steel doesn't deserve its place as 3rd in usage because it loses to the best types and people shouldnt think that just because a type is high in usage means its equal to that in viability.

OHOHOH I almost forgot. This also applies to flying because it can also lose to these indirect disadvantages, the dragon v flying and normal v flying matchup is heavily in dragons/normals favor but isnt too evident on type charts or supereffective typing. Fighting vs water, Fairy vs psychic, and Psychic vs ground all have these same characteristics, just like steel has a bunch of trouble vs flying. I honestly cant tell if everyone in the monotype community realizes there is more to matchup than simple stab advantage.

A good answer as to why steel is 3rd in usage, or some more potential steel wallbreakers are highly appreciated.
Click to expand...
This basically sums up everything, as well as showcasing some of the sets steel would need to use for some immediate power. There's also been some discussion about Cobalion, so I thought I'd post a set I've been enjoying.

cobalion.gif

Cobalion @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 244 Atk / 56 SpA / 208 Spe
Naive Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Volt Switch

It is true that its offensive stats are nothing amazing, but it can take advantage of a mixed set. Evs allow it to outspeed Max Speed Garchomp, so you can put evs into its lackluster Special Attack. With a good natural speed stat, paired with great coverage, it is able to check some of steel's most deadly threats.

  • 244 Atk Life Orb Cobalion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 536-634 (180.4 - 213.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • 56 SpA Life Orb Cobalion Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 265-317 (83 - 99.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 56 SpA Life Orb Cobalion Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 255-302 (71.4 - 84.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes (note that most run naive for Fire Blast, this is just in case it isn't. For that, 1 spike layer is a 75% chance to OHKO)
  • 244 Atk Life Orb Cobalion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 221-265 (59.2 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Overall all it is an underrated mon, I could potentially see a rise of usage for it in the future once people realize its potential.

Edit: Flying Calcs yeeeee, thnx Sabella
  • 56 SpA Life Orb Cobalion Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 172-203 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (guaranteed 2KO after SR)
  • 244 Atk Life Orb Cobalion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 250-296 (65.2 - 77.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 56 SpA Life Orb Cobalion Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 265-317 (83 - 99.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (be sure it isn't scarfed)
Vs Ground (against a very salty Snowyyy)
 
Last edited:
Stunfisk The Great said:
For some reason I haven't been getting any notifications for some odd reason, and when I came back here I saw the forum blow up lol.

Anyways, I can agree steel's viability has went down, and I too am a bit baffled at why its still considered a top type.

This basically sums up everything, as well as showcasing some of the sets steel would need to use for some immediate power. There's also been some discussion about Cobalion, so I thought I'd post a set I've been enjoying.

cobalion.gif

Cobalion @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 244 Atk / 56 SpA / 208 Spe
Naive Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Volt Switch

It is true that its offensive stats are nothing amazing, but it can take advantage of a mixed set. Evs allow it to outspeed Max Speed Garchomp, so you can put evs into its lackluster Special Attack. With a good natural speed stat, paired with great coverage, it is able to check some of steel's most deadly threats.

  • 244 Atk Life Orb Cobalion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 536-634 (180.4 - 213.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • 56 SpA Life Orb Cobalion Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 265-317 (83 - 99.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 56 SpA Life Orb Cobalion Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 255-302 (71.4 - 84.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes (note that most run naive for Fire Blast, this is just in case it isn't. For that, 1 spike layer is a 75% chance to OHKO)
  • 244 Atk Life Orb Cobalion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 221-265 (59.2 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Overall all it is an underrated mon, I could potentially see a rise of usage for it in the future once people realize its potential.
Click to expand...

Like the other sets you need to run at least some sort of speed to outspend threats like normal garchomp, landorus, and char y
 
Sabella said:
Stun the calc is good to show for flying but u have to be able to break zapdos to. Thats the more important calc u should be running for flying.
Click to expand...
Stone Edge + Volt Switch is already gonna do numbers to skarm dos, given you play right. You can also use HP Ice for Lando I/T (so long as T isn't scarfed). I can include the calcs rly quick tho thnx for that.
 
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