How is it better with identical bulk, less Speed, weaker Special Attack, and the inability to force out Mons behind Subs? Please explain ._.
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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139
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Alt tends to go for more speedy sets so it can taunt and shuffle around balance cores whereas Poliwrath invests in straight bulk and can take on offense better with this bulk, also because less mons on offense tend to run sub.
But doesn't Keldeo have the option of running full bulk as well? When two mons have the same bulk, the defensive EV spread argument becomes moot. Poliwrath doesn't GET to invest in straight bulk, it HAS to invest in straight bulk because it doesn't have the option to invest in speed. There's a huge difference.
4 ninjas since i first started writing this post
to littlelucario the ninja: it doesn't matter what it 'tends to go for' unless you can prove it's outclassed in a Restalk role; more on this later but that's what you should try to prove. and sanger on the ninja explains this honestly better than I did / could.
It's funny how my first thought on seeing Poliwrath nommed was 'wait, why wouldn't I just use Restalk Keldeo?'
Keldeo has an extra HP point and Poliwrath has 5 extra points in Defense, so you are't sacrificing defense for offensive presence (as i had actually assumed tbh); however, Keldeo has a whopping 59 extra SpA and 38 extra Speed (less attack doesn't matter, espc. since Secret Sword is one of Keldeo's STABs). Then, there's also the fact that a defensive keldeo is much more surprising. There's no good way to quantify that (i've been trying for a few minutes), especially without using it, but that usually tends to help.
In practical terms, all Poliwrath has over Keldeo is A:Water Absorb and B:circle throw instead of Secret Sword. For the first, cool, but it's not *that* helpful (it does kick ass versus Omastar, but a lot of other stuff is walled regardless/ways around Poliwrath regardless), and while circle throw is a cool phazing STAB, this doesn't seem like enough to give up power, speed, and surprise. Keep in mind that uninvested Keldeo easily outspeeds Adamant Bisharp (and anything creeping around that range, as a bonus), so you don't even need to invest in speed to reap the benefits.
in short poliwrath may have a niche in a straight-up restalk role but I feel like Keldeo has many advantages in this restalk vs. restalk; the fact that you talk about it as an offensive pivot (where lack of offense tends to hurt) only makes Keldeo look better.
to littlelucario the ninja: it doesn't matter what it 'tends to go for' unless you can prove it's outclassed in a Restalk role; more on this later but that's what you should try to prove. and sanger on the ninja explains this honestly better than I did / could.
It's funny how my first thought on seeing Poliwrath nommed was 'wait, why wouldn't I just use Restalk Keldeo?'
Keldeo has an extra HP point and Poliwrath has 5 extra points in Defense, so you are't sacrificing defense for offensive presence (as i had actually assumed tbh); however, Keldeo has a whopping 59 extra SpA and 38 extra Speed (less attack doesn't matter, espc. since Secret Sword is one of Keldeo's STABs). Then, there's also the fact that a defensive keldeo is much more surprising. There's no good way to quantify that (i've been trying for a few minutes), especially without using it, but that usually tends to help.
In practical terms, all Poliwrath has over Keldeo is A:Water Absorb and B:circle throw instead of Secret Sword. For the first, cool, but it's not *that* helpful (it does kick ass versus Omastar, but a lot of other stuff is walled regardless/ways around Poliwrath regardless), and while circle throw is a cool phazing STAB, this doesn't seem like enough to give up power, speed, and surprise. Keep in mind that uninvested Keldeo easily outspeeds Adamant Bisharp (and anything creeping around that range, as a bonus), so you don't even need to invest in speed to reap the benefits.
in short poliwrath may have a niche in a straight-up restalk role but I feel like Keldeo has many advantages in this restalk vs. restalk; the fact that you talk about it as an offensive pivot (where lack of offense tends to hurt) only makes Keldeo look better.
He has to yes and that may seem detrimental, but his use of circle throw not forcing him to use up a slot for fighting STAB on the set, allowing him to use sleeptalk is a good thing, and his main roll is to be a physically defensive tank. Another thing that you are undervaluing is the fact that water absorb functions as pseudo recovery and allows Politoed to pivot in on water types while gaining 25% of its HP.
This is not a nomination; let's start there. But it has become increasingly apparent to me that seemingly ludicrous D rank nominations get huge support from normal users like myself. After considering this for...a couple of weeks? Ish? Anyway, I think I've figured out the main reason for this: OU is starved for diversity and we (in our illogical heart of hearts[es{es}]) want to believe that any pokemon can be successful in OU. We want to see guys like Ben gay wreck boring, poster child OU squads with pikachu or lickilicky or whatever. Because that gives us hope. That makes us think that we can use any mons we wish if we play well. And we can. Heck, I use a specs seviper on a (technically) OU team, and I do pretty well.
So why am I stalking this thread, if I'm such a special snowflake? Easy. I'm scouting the competition, seeing what's hip (think back to the huge surge in scarftars or rockychomps or weavile nowadays), what more and more people are finding effective. Now, most of my opponents tend to turn their noses up at anything below the B ranks, but occasionally I'll see a fella using a C or even D rankee because they are pretty good at their specific roles (MC Hammeresque Mega Aggron and shell smashing cloyster), and even more rarely I'll stumble across some poké-deity using plusle or something of that nature, but these are few and far between.
...look, the point of this wall of text is that some really weird, niche stuff can and will be effective here in OU, but that small niche isn't quite enough for a rank. Keep using that mega abomasnow or mega banette or shedinja you cherish so much and that works wonder (guard)s (sometimes); I will too, and we can salute each other for our bravery and devotion. But don't clutter this viability thread with mons we'll probably never see or want to use. It takes away from the main purpose, i.e. to see what the meta game trends are. Maybe E rank should be collapsible, like Ben Gay rank used to be. I dunno.
So why am I stalking this thread, if I'm such a special snowflake? Easy. I'm scouting the competition, seeing what's hip (think back to the huge surge in scarftars or rockychomps or weavile nowadays), what more and more people are finding effective. Now, most of my opponents tend to turn their noses up at anything below the B ranks, but occasionally I'll see a fella using a C or even D rankee because they are pretty good at their specific roles (MC Hammeresque Mega Aggron and shell smashing cloyster), and even more rarely I'll stumble across some poké-deity using plusle or something of that nature, but these are few and far between.
...look, the point of this wall of text is that some really weird, niche stuff can and will be effective here in OU, but that small niche isn't quite enough for a rank. Keep using that mega abomasnow or mega banette or shedinja you cherish so much and that works wonder (guard)s (sometimes); I will too, and we can salute each other for our bravery and devotion. But don't clutter this viability thread with mons we'll probably never see or want to use. It takes away from the main purpose, i.e. to see what the meta game trends are. Maybe E rank should be collapsible, like Ben Gay rank used to be. I dunno.
Not disagreeing with you because I think Poliwrath has enough going for D-rank (or maybe E?), but responding with unelaborated, two liners to every post that argues against you is only going to get Poliwrath blacklisted. I don't mean to sound rude but it's doing no good.
As for the actual niches Poliwrath has over Keldeo would be Water Absorb and Circle Throw. Circle Throw allows you to better check the likes of Bisharp and Mega Gyarados while still retaining a phasing move in order to ensure you aren't set up fodder if running Rest + Sleep Talk. Keldeo cannot run Scald, Secret Sword, Roar, Rest, and Sleep Talk on the same set without losing something. Secret Sword is needed to check the previously mentioned threats consistently and if Keldeo, like Poliwrath, wants recovery it has to resort to Sleep Talk and Rest. However, running Sleep Talk and Rest can make something complete setup fodder without a phasing move such as Roar or Circle Throw and Keldeo doesn't want to give up Scald because well, Scald is just Scald. Therefore, a defensive Keldeo cannot reliably run a Sleep Talk set and is probably better off going Scald / Secret Sword / Filler / Filler with almost max speed to creep certain pokemon and have max hp to still tank hits. So I would say Keldeo is better off being a weaker check to Bisharp and them while still retaining the ability to revenge Landorus andTaunt Garchomp along with a few other things. Poliwrath, on the other hand, can run a more effective Rest Talk phaser set that has the ability to recover off damage and more easily check pokemon with its invested bulk. We also can't forget that Circle Throw can do some decent chip damage as well, which when paired with hazards adds up. As for Water Absorb I think its importance is being vastyl underestimated. Scald is one of, if not the, most spammable moves in the game and Poliwrath's presence not only discourages users from spamming it but allows Poliwrath to come in risk free on the move, which is something not other many pokemon can claim.
Water Absorb forces opponents to think twice about locking their choiced Azumarills and Keldeos into a water move and allows Poliwrath to check them far better than Keldeo, who can be muscled though by these moves. Poliwrath also fares off way better against dangerous pokemon such as Tail Glow Manaphy (lacking Energy Ball / Psychic), Choice Band or Swords Dance Crawdaunt, who really can't touch Poliwrath at all after knocking off its item, and SD/ DD Feraligatr than Keldeo. All of these pokemon cannot use their main STAB after setting up in attempt to will their way through Poliwrath and instead are forced to use a resisted coverage move. This allows Poliwrath to phase them out, taking away their boosts and preventing a potential sweep. Finally, we cannot forget that Poliwrath just curbstomps many rain sweepers. Omastar can happily spam its Specs Hydro Pump against Keldeo while the best it can do to Poliwrath is potentially knock off its item or pray for freeze hax. In a similar vein, Kabutops might eventually break through Keldeo with a +2 Waterfall but is going to have a harder time against Poliwrath.
In conclusion, Poliwrath has a small, yet undeniable, niche over Keldeo and other defensive waters. In can do a lot for the team in one slot such as check and phase dangerous setup sweepers, deter water spam, cockblock rain, and check other common OU pokemon. Circle Throw gives Poliwrath the ability to give out meaningful damage to a few important pokemon while being a phasing in one moveslot, giving Poliwrath the freedom to run Rest Talk and still do its job. Scald will not being breaking down walls anytime soon, but will at least prevent Poliwrath from being set up fodder (especially in sleep) and scare off many pokemon. I think Poliwrath is best used on select teams that find themselves pinched for team slots and need checks to Bisharp, Mega Gyarados, and Keldeo, while also lacking any or a sufficient amount of water resists which would cause them to be overrun by rain teams or water-based wall breakers such as Manaphy or Crawdaunt. Poliwrath can also do some other cool things such as absorb status (remember Rest), shut down choiced water spam, phase out a +1 DD Zard X, switch into Scald risk free, switch into basically any Hippowdon set, and function as an emergency check to a few other pokemon if necessary. All in all, Poliwrath only fits in select teams which may be enough to justify D rank, otherwise I think E rank (when it comes out) would suffice. I feel like Poliwrath belongs somewhere because it has a niche, is therefore viable, and this is the Viability Rankings thread after all. Also, comparing Poliwrath to stuff like Haxorus seems kinda unfair to me because Haxorus isn't really bad enough for D rank, it is just heavily outclassed by other pokemon but would otherwise be decent in this metagame. Poliwrath isn't really heavily outclassed as much as Haxorus, it it just has a really small niche. Finally, I'll admit that I tend to be a little more kind-hearted to lower ranked and less used pokemon. One of my favorite teams right now is a hyper offensive team that uses a suicide lead Skarmory (Mental Herb is better than Custap FYI) to lay down hazards paired with Physically Defensive Jellicent and Scarfed Bisharp to keep them there so a Tailwind Tornadus can lead to an Octillery sweep, rounded out by Mega Manectric. As you can see, I clearly enjoy using lower/unranked pokemon and have a partia bias to them, but in this case Poliwrath really deserves something, be it D or E rank.
Edt: littlelucario Coincindentally enough I changed that first paragraph to be a little nicer sounding right after I posted, but it looks like you responded to me before I edited it. Anways I realize it came off as slightly mean, I just intended to inform you that posting a lot to respond to people isn't something anyone appreciates too much and won't further your arguement even if youre right, that is all. I guess I felt like you were just making Poliwrath look bad acting like that ;)
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I actually posted a detailed description earlier and the two liners were to answer the two liner questions asked, but thank you for supporting my opinion even if you dont support me. ;--;
This is my first post in this thread, so please let me know if this post is unnecessary. I am basically looking to briefly discuss a Pokemon that I (and a few others from what I can tell) contains two relatively interesting niches in the meta: Swellow.
I think the mere mention of Swellow makes people cringe, as most people who think of a fast bird that can spam Brave Bird and has frail defenses is Talonflame (and in rarer cases, Staraptor). However, Swellow, with a Toxic Orb activated, is an incredibly powerful answer to Thundurus (something that can cause huge problems with Thunder Wave and disrupt a team's momentum). Talonflame might naturally outspeed with Gale Wings, but it simply cannot revenge-kill a Thundurus like Swellow can. Of course, it cannot switch in on bulky status inflictors such as Gliscor or Mew without needing to U-Turn out to prevent losing health from recover stall (making it relatively useless).
Swellow also does not take recoil damage from its most powerful attack: Facade. With Stealth Rocks on the opponent's side, Swellow outspeeds and one shots offensive threats such as Lati@s, Alakazam, Azumarill, Landorus-I (RIP), and Tornadus-T without losing 1/3 of its health like Talonflame does. This is, of course, wonderful in late game situations that require a late-game sweeper to stay healthy enough to knock down more than one threat.
I'm not trying to suggest this getting a good rank in OU, because, simply put, it is in all cases but two outclassed Pokemon by Smogon's posterbird. I would like to know what others think about this, however. Please, for the love of all that is holy, do not claim against this simply by citing its tier ranking. Discussion if this niche is "justifiable or not for selective usage" is all I'm asking for.
Per Kurona, replays showing how much Swellow shuts down Thundurus and forces inopportune switching to prevent the match up from occuring:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-237328004
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-237335594
I think the mere mention of Swellow makes people cringe, as most people who think of a fast bird that can spam Brave Bird and has frail defenses is Talonflame (and in rarer cases, Staraptor). However, Swellow, with a Toxic Orb activated, is an incredibly powerful answer to Thundurus (something that can cause huge problems with Thunder Wave and disrupt a team's momentum). Talonflame might naturally outspeed with Gale Wings, but it simply cannot revenge-kill a Thundurus like Swellow can. Of course, it cannot switch in on bulky status inflictors such as Gliscor or Mew without needing to U-Turn out to prevent losing health from recover stall (making it relatively useless).
Swellow also does not take recoil damage from its most powerful attack: Facade. With Stealth Rocks on the opponent's side, Swellow outspeeds and one shots offensive threats such as Lati@s, Alakazam, Azumarill, Landorus-I (RIP), and Tornadus-T without losing 1/3 of its health like Talonflame does. This is, of course, wonderful in late game situations that require a late-game sweeper to stay healthy enough to knock down more than one threat.
I'm not trying to suggest this getting a good rank in OU, because, simply put, it is in all cases but two outclassed Pokemon by Smogon's posterbird. I would like to know what others think about this, however. Please, for the love of all that is holy, do not claim against this simply by citing its tier ranking. Discussion if this niche is "justifiable or not for selective usage" is all I'm asking for.
Per Kurona, replays showing how much Swellow shuts down Thundurus and forces inopportune switching to prevent the match up from occuring:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-237328004
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-237335594
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While I do like that and all; it's been accepted for a while now as a general rule that replays are required for unranked > ranked - especially when Swellow has been turned down for a rank before.
I'm sort of confused why we're spending so much time and effort bickering about extremely low rank nominations that many of us have hardly bat an eye to before someone nominated them when we can spend time on discussing matters that have more than a shred of a shred relevance or potential viability. I'm talking about thinks like Shedninja or Poliwrath here, things that could hardly ever be viable without being almost completely outclassed or requiring an absurd amount of support. I mean sure, there might be something there (I remember last summer Srn and I got on this huge stall-Poliwrath hype before we abandoned the idea) but in the end I doubt there's enough to spend this much time on these specific issues that revolve around the nichest of niches, if that. Sure, I feel the need to discuss nominations, but to this degree... Not so much.
Also a lot of this is going on while ignoring a nomination that does have a legitimate, very unique niche, Mega Banette. As ben gay stated, Banette holds the combo of being a slow attacker whilst having Priority DBond, together giving Banette this weird shield almost to damage as the opponent effectively has no safe turn to attack the Banette since the Bond will be constantly active. Obviously, it has many uses such as removing a set up Pokemon, either via switch, wanting to preserve it, or Destiny Bond. It's really an amazing thing to have, and C is very reasonable considering that C rank is also the depths of Dugtrio, Goodra, and Kyurem Normal. Move it up imo.
Also a lot of this is going on while ignoring a nomination that does have a legitimate, very unique niche, Mega Banette. As ben gay stated, Banette holds the combo of being a slow attacker whilst having Priority DBond, together giving Banette this weird shield almost to damage as the opponent effectively has no safe turn to attack the Banette since the Bond will be constantly active. Obviously, it has many uses such as removing a set up Pokemon, either via switch, wanting to preserve it, or Destiny Bond. It's really an amazing thing to have, and C is very reasonable considering that C rank is also the depths of Dugtrio, Goodra, and Kyurem Normal. Move it up imo.
I'm the person that made the Poliwrath nom in the first place and I stopped arguing for it after a guy mentioned Keldeo got roar, I think it's clear at this point that Keld outclasses Poliwrath at every role and the niches it has (Water Absorb, Circle Throw) are not enough for it to be ranked in D-Rank.
So I think you guys should just give up on it unless you want to see it getting blacklisted.
So I think you guys should just give up on it unless you want to see it getting blacklisted.
Mega Banette also has the utility of having Frisk before it Mega Evolves so it can see what the opponent is holding and remove any element of surprise for any E-Belt mons and what not. Problem is that M-Banette has a pretty fat opportunity cost by giving up a Mega Slot for the utility of having priority D-Bond. M-Banette is fine in D rank or unranked. Has a pretty cool niche, but there are other Megas some players may want to use in its place.
How is that any different from the Megas already in C?
The opportunity cost argument is really annoying because when someone has already decided "hey I'm gonna utilize Mega Banette with a team that takes advantage of the utility it provides" the opportunity cost doesn't apply to them. Especially in this case where what Mega Banette provides is unique and it isn't directly outclassed by any higher mon or Mega.
I don't think mega banette should be listed, the ability of remove a set-up sweeper from the game is very niche, and banette can fail doing This job, because you can predict wrong, and you need to be mega evolved to use Prankster witch means you can't just caem and use priority Destiny bond with mind games, also ditto can do asimilar thing, but he can use the set-up sweeper to become a sweeper, and This is very niche too, but is more safe than a mind game(if he is mega evolved). Ditto also can be used as an awsome revenge killer, witch will always attack first. So in my opinon Ditto>Mega banette. (I don't want to say that ditto don't use a mega slot but...)
i understant that mega banette can provide a good utility to the team, but we have a lot of other options to use, like klefki, mega sableye, thundurus and whimsicott, and them all can use prankster in the first turn, and also nobody here needs a mega slot. so if you are going to rank someone pls rank Ditto back(i know is really niche, but all the others D ranks are also really niche, and Ditto is quite better then Banette in a utility category.
Also I agree with the idea of rank Swellow, he can do a lot of things Staraptor and Talonflame can´t(not saying he is better them they).
i understant that mega banette can provide a good utility to the team, but we have a lot of other options to use, like klefki, mega sableye, thundurus and whimsicott, and them all can use prankster in the first turn, and also nobody here needs a mega slot. so if you are going to rank someone pls rank Ditto back(i know is really niche, but all the others D ranks are also really niche, and Ditto is quite better then Banette in a utility category.
Also I agree with the idea of rank Swellow, he can do a lot of things Staraptor and Talonflame can´t(not saying he is better them they).
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I'd like to bring up some pretty underrated 'mons that I think have more potential than their rank indicates :)
First one is Krookodile, who I believe should be moved from unranked -> C (actually I think that it should be higher than C since I believe it's more useful than C stuff like Goodra and Cofagrigus but C for now I suppose). With a good typing + Intimidate, it's a pretty reliable Rocks setter that's able to check a decent number of 'mons while also having great offensive presence with a base 117 Attack and powerful STABs in Knock Off and Earthquake. Knock Off in particular is great as you're able to remove the items of stuff like Rotom-W, Clefable, and Ferrothorn that would normally not care about switching into Ttar. It's also an excellent trapper of Heatran as, unlike TTar and Bisharp, it's able to force it out consistently with the threat of an immediate OHKO. Its speed tier conveniently puts it just above Landorus-T, which means you not only get to outspeed them and remove their items, but also outspeed stuff like ZardX and Manaphy that I've noticed tend to creep Lando-T. Other things it checks include Excadrill (most notably can Pursuit Sand Rush variants after Sand runs out which is amazing), Bisharp, Mew, Tyranitar, Mega Manetric, and Jirachi. Here's a sample set:
and here are some replays of it putting in work:
Yeah this guy definitely deserves to be ranked and is unquestionably above the level of the guys in D.
Another nomination I have is Entei from C to C+/B-. Almost every one of OU's normal Fire checks (with the exception of ZardX and Heatran) is severely hindered if not absolutely crippled by Sacred Fire's burn chance: Azumarill, TTar, Garchomp, Hippowdon and Dragonite are all helpless against burns while none of Manaphy, Lati@s, Rotom-W, Keldeo, or Slowbro enjoys it either. I'd like to stress that this is what primarily sets it apart from other Fire-types, as its able to really hurt 'mons that would normally switch into stuff like Victini's V-create and Heatran's Fire Blast, for example. On top of that, Extremespeed is also amazing against offense and a nice backup measure against sweepers. The sheer number of annoying/threatening Pokemon that Entei provides a solid answer to is great and with a Choice Band Entei in the back, you don't even need to worry against stuff like CM Clefable, (Mega) Scizor, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, BD Azumarill, SD SpDef Gliscor, and the list goes on. Here's a replay of Entei absolutely demolishing a team: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-235344360. In the third replay in the Krookodile section you'll see as well that Entei's able to save me from an SD Gliscor sweep. Entei's actually an extremely solid 'mon in OU thanks to all this and it'd be cool to see its rank reflect that :}
First one is Krookodile, who I believe should be moved from unranked -> C (actually I think that it should be higher than C since I believe it's more useful than C stuff like Goodra and Cofagrigus but C for now I suppose). With a good typing + Intimidate, it's a pretty reliable Rocks setter that's able to check a decent number of 'mons while also having great offensive presence with a base 117 Attack and powerful STABs in Knock Off and Earthquake. Knock Off in particular is great as you're able to remove the items of stuff like Rotom-W, Clefable, and Ferrothorn that would normally not care about switching into Ttar. It's also an excellent trapper of Heatran as, unlike TTar and Bisharp, it's able to force it out consistently with the threat of an immediate OHKO. Its speed tier conveniently puts it just above Landorus-T, which means you not only get to outspeed them and remove their items, but also outspeed stuff like ZardX and Manaphy that I've noticed tend to creep Lando-T. Other things it checks include Excadrill (most notably can Pursuit Sand Rush variants after Sand runs out which is amazing), Bisharp, Mew, Tyranitar, Mega Manetric, and Jirachi. Here's a sample set:
Krookodile @ Dread Plate
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-234965649 Krook's able to trap Heatran and eventually kill it, an amazing contribution considering that Heatran troubles 4/6 of my team. Krook is also able to remove the items of Skarm, Gliscor, and Clefable, all of which was enormously helpful towards my goal of a late-game Pidgeot sweep.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-235498536 Again, Krook's able to maintain Stealth Rock throughout this game so that my opp's CB Talonflame isn't free to go in. Also, it severely cripples his Rotom-W which is a huge pain to my team and gives me a backup answer to his TTar and Bisharp.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-226620016 In this one Krookodile puts in a massive amount of work: he Pursuits my opponent's defogger, allowing me to easily stack Spikes which hurts his whole team and actually eventually ends up getting all 6 kills in this game which I thought was pretty funny.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-235498536 Again, Krook's able to maintain Stealth Rock throughout this game so that my opp's CB Talonflame isn't free to go in. Also, it severely cripples his Rotom-W which is a huge pain to my team and gives me a backup answer to his TTar and Bisharp.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-226620016 In this one Krookodile puts in a massive amount of work: he Pursuits my opponent's defogger, allowing me to easily stack Spikes which hurts his whole team and actually eventually ends up getting all 6 kills in this game which I thought was pretty funny.
Another nomination I have is Entei from C to C+/B-. Almost every one of OU's normal Fire checks (with the exception of ZardX and Heatran) is severely hindered if not absolutely crippled by Sacred Fire's burn chance: Azumarill, TTar, Garchomp, Hippowdon and Dragonite are all helpless against burns while none of Manaphy, Lati@s, Rotom-W, Keldeo, or Slowbro enjoys it either. I'd like to stress that this is what primarily sets it apart from other Fire-types, as its able to really hurt 'mons that would normally switch into stuff like Victini's V-create and Heatran's Fire Blast, for example. On top of that, Extremespeed is also amazing against offense and a nice backup measure against sweepers. The sheer number of annoying/threatening Pokemon that Entei provides a solid answer to is great and with a Choice Band Entei in the back, you don't even need to worry against stuff like CM Clefable, (Mega) Scizor, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, BD Azumarill, SD SpDef Gliscor, and the list goes on. Here's a replay of Entei absolutely demolishing a team: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-235344360. In the third replay in the Krookodile section you'll see as well that Entei's able to save me from an SD Gliscor sweep. Entei's actually an extremely solid 'mon in OU thanks to all this and it'd be cool to see its rank reflect that :}
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Correct me if I'm wrong, since I'm just theory-monning here, but seems like Mega Banette could have some utility on bulky offense/semi-stall teams. Sure, no recovery blows chunks (especially when Mega Sableye is there), and again in the vast majority of cases Mega Sableye would probably be better, but the Prankster D-bond/Taunt and general ability to give decent hazard control and pseudo-stallbreak, AND pretty much guaranteed neutralization of at least one threat sounds like it could certainly be useful for even non-HO teams.
I fully support Mega Banette to go to C/C-. As prankster D-Bond and WoW are pretty hard to come by (Vanilla Sab is the main user of the latter, I can't think of a single D-Bonder), Mega Bannete has a viable niche out of them. It's rather good attack can be utilised on a 3 attacks + D-Bond set if you really want to suprise your opp, and it has offensive utility in sucker punch. It's a mon that's given little thought due to having rather poor stats (esp speed), and not the easiest mon to use, but able to get 1-2 kills a game reasonably consistently if used correctly by a competant player. It's also got good surprise factor and a larges number of players forget what it does and some never even knew.
There are no mind games. Banette stops any sweep barring a few priority attackers. Ditto has to rely on scarf and is complete dead weight against certain archetypes whereas Banette can actually function fairly well as a bulky attacker in slower matchups. Banette's real competition comes from Clefable and even Quagsire. Sure, they fill slightly different roles and Banette is technically more consistent, but Quag and Clef generally kill and survive against opposing sweepers allowing them to take on more than one sweeper per game among other things.
I agree with the nominations of Poliwrath going to D rank (or maybe E rank?). I nominated him a few weeks back, and it didn't get much discussion, but I'm glad he's getting some notice.
Like some have said, Keldeo has similar bulk, more speed and better special attack. But in order for him to achieve that great speed to check it's threats, it has to sacrifice quiet a bit of bulk. And since the whole comparison of Poliwrath and Keldeo is it's defensive sets, Keldeo is inferior overall as a straight up defensive Poke, since it's sacrificing bulk for speed. Poliwrath doesn't have this issue since his speed isn't good so he'll always be invested in defense. Keldeo also suffers from 4MSS since it wants Scald, Secret Sword, Roar, Rest, and Sleep Talk. No matter what moves the user picks, it'll have more problems checking Pokemon than Poliwrath would. Without Scald, he can't pass burns onto Pokemon. Without Secret Sword, he can't threaten threats like Mega Gyarados and others (If they stay in on Poliwrath with Mega Gyarados they're taking a super effective Circle throw AND getting phased out). Without Roar, it can't phase out sweepers and Pokemon it can't touch. Without Rest, it has no way (except Leftovers) to recover health. And without Sleep Talk, it's just a sitting duck when it's asleep. Poliwrath doesn't have 4MSS since it has access to Circle Throw which acts as a decent STAB to rack up some damage while also phasing out Pokemon. Poliwrath also has Water Absorb, which in this meta, is a fantastic ability. Rain teams are rising in usage and Scald is probably the most used move in the game. Being able to completely stop rain sweepers and Scald abusers while gaining some health is awesome.
Maybe I'm overselling Poliwrath here, but he does have a niche in the meta. Keldeo doesn't completely outclass Poliwrath, despite the similarities and pros that Keldeo has. Poliwrath does deserve to be ranked.
Like some have said, Keldeo has similar bulk, more speed and better special attack. But in order for him to achieve that great speed to check it's threats, it has to sacrifice quiet a bit of bulk. And since the whole comparison of Poliwrath and Keldeo is it's defensive sets, Keldeo is inferior overall as a straight up defensive Poke, since it's sacrificing bulk for speed. Poliwrath doesn't have this issue since his speed isn't good so he'll always be invested in defense. Keldeo also suffers from 4MSS since it wants Scald, Secret Sword, Roar, Rest, and Sleep Talk. No matter what moves the user picks, it'll have more problems checking Pokemon than Poliwrath would. Without Scald, he can't pass burns onto Pokemon. Without Secret Sword, he can't threaten threats like Mega Gyarados and others (If they stay in on Poliwrath with Mega Gyarados they're taking a super effective Circle throw AND getting phased out). Without Roar, it can't phase out sweepers and Pokemon it can't touch. Without Rest, it has no way (except Leftovers) to recover health. And without Sleep Talk, it's just a sitting duck when it's asleep. Poliwrath doesn't have 4MSS since it has access to Circle Throw which acts as a decent STAB to rack up some damage while also phasing out Pokemon. Poliwrath also has Water Absorb, which in this meta, is a fantastic ability. Rain teams are rising in usage and Scald is probably the most used move in the game. Being able to completely stop rain sweepers and Scald abusers while gaining some health is awesome.
Maybe I'm overselling Poliwrath here, but he does have a niche in the meta. Keldeo doesn't completely outclass Poliwrath, despite the similarities and pros that Keldeo has. Poliwrath does deserve to be ranked.
I don't get the argument that Poliwrath beats Keldeo because Keldeo is faster. Like, if you want you can just run 0 speed Keldeo and still be faster, stronger hitting, not stopped by Ghosts/Substitutes and just as bulky as Poliwrath. It's just a really pointless argument, especially considering that Water Absorb isn't that good of an ability on something that both resists Water attacks and isn't overly bothered by burn due to Rest. Also, Keldeo having all the options that Poliwrath has and some giving it 4MSS is hardly a drawback considering that again, if it wants, there is nothing stopping it from just running the same thing as Poliwrath and still outclassing it.
Poliwrath is outclassed by Keldeo because Keldeo:
Has Taunt, phases through subs, is much much faster even without investment, has a lot higher special attack, has Calm Mind and can use it, and noone actually expects a bulky phasing set, and would play around expecting something more common like Specs or SubCM.
Keldeo is outclassed by Poliwrath because Poliwrath:
Can stop water attacks even though it already resists them, and, uhh, has only one set that it can run, making it completely predictable but also meaning it misses out on the drawbacks of, err, having more moves.
Poliwrath is outclassed by Keldeo because Keldeo:
Has Taunt, phases through subs, is much much faster even without investment, has a lot higher special attack, has Calm Mind and can use it, and noone actually expects a bulky phasing set, and would play around expecting something more common like Specs or SubCM.
Keldeo is outclassed by Poliwrath because Poliwrath:
Can stop water attacks even though it already resists them, and, uhh, has only one set that it can run, making it completely predictable but also meaning it misses out on the drawbacks of, err, having more moves.
Gonna quote this because quite frankly it deserves some discussion and because there is a replay edited in.
Swellow to D-rank.
Let me start this off by saying this is a 100% serious post (because this kind of nomination ordinarily attracts a "stop trolling" response). Also, I haven't seen anyone else use this in OU and tbh i haven't seen it anywhere outside of randbats (because i don't play NU/RU or whatever tier this is actually in) so i'll try and be thorough with my explanation.
Basically, Guts Facade (210 BP after STAB) + a base 125 speed tier is what Swellow is all about. This allows Swellow to outspeed most of OU (save for few things such as Mega Lop/Zam/Beedrill/Scep, Scarf Lan-t/Keld etc) and then proceed to OHKO them with rocks up and if not, 2HKO a good chunk of the remaining fatter portion.
Notable Calcs:
- 252 Atk Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 174-205 (44.1 - 52%) -- 75.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
The beauty of Guts Facade is that you only end up taking around 18% recoil over 2 turns (6%+12%) which actually gives Swellow some level of survivability though i'll concede that taking 25% SR damage on a switch isn't ideal. On otherhand, it hits harder than Mega Pinsir. Facade + Brave Bird actually has really good coverage and hits everything bar Steels and Rocks which it can easily outspeed and U-turn out of. That being said, Guts Facade actually hits Steel/Rock resists quite hard such that Guts Facade followed by U-turn on 252HP Heatran allows you to 2HKO it with SR next time you switch in for example and as explained above, Guts Facade + U-turn + SR can take out Scarf Ttar 55% of the time. Mega Diancie is similarly 2HKOd by Guts Facade as above.
- 252 Atk Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 118-140 (48.9 - 58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- 252 Atk Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 280-331 (87.7 - 103.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 252 Atk Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 205-243 (52 - 61.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 252 Atk Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 280-331 (86.6 - 102.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 252 Atk Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 181-214 (59.7 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 252 Atk Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 309-364 (84.8 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 252 Atk Guts Swellow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 148-175 (42 - 49.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery (dat recoil tho)
- Scarf Tyranitar takes between 80.9-95.7% from a combination of switching into Guts Facade + being handily outsped and hit by Guts U-turn which is a range of 93.4-108.2% after SR damage. i.e. a 55% chance to 2HKO with SR up
The things holding Swellow back (and why i'm hesitant to nom any higher than D-rank) are its garbage bulk (60/60/50 lol) which makes it extremely vulnerable to priority in a tier flooded with priority and a SR weakness. Swellow's incredible speed tier on the other hand gives it a good chance to kill most things before they actually have an opportunity to touch it if they lack priority. Despite this, it needs Toxic Orb to be active to actually inflict any kind of damage with its pitiful base 85 Atk. Ferrothorn + Rocky Helmet Garchomp being extremely common doesn't really help out Swellow (but tbh all OU birds are somewhat held back by this).
While Swellow threatens the OHKO on pokemon such as Lati@s, Gengar and Starmie, they can all switch out of Swellow and then force Swellow to take recoil from something like Ferrothorn or Rocky Helmet Garchomp. However, running Pursuit alleviates this issue and allows Swellow to trap and eliminate them and thereby not be completely useless:
(for the following calcs, Crunch replaces a Pursuit trap, i.e. 80 BP Pursuit)
Another cool thing to take note of is that once Toxic Orb is active, Swellow can't be shutdown by status such as Prankster T-wave from Thundurus-i like most of the other birds.
- 252 Atk Guts Swellow Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 238-280 (79.5 - 93.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 252 Atk Guts Swellow Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 296-350 (112.9 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252 Atk Guts Swellow Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 226-266 (86.5 - 101.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
In experimenting with Swellow in OU, i've found Rotom-w to be a really good partner in that it takes most priority that Swellow despises such as Bullet Punch and Aqua Jet and also provides a slow volt switch to bring in Swellow safely and allow Toxic Orb to activate.
I'll admit that i originally tried out Swellow as a joke just to troll a friend but over the past few days it's actually put in a ridiculous amount of work. However, like a complete idiot, i forgot to save replays of Swellow in action so i will update this post when i remember to save some.
EDIT: REPLAY where Swellow takes out a 47% Ferro and 2HKOs Slowbro
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-229136907
tl;dr Swellow hits like a truck with Guts Facade and outspeeds the majority of the tier with base 125 spe. There's a bunch of random crap currently in D-rank and i believe Swellow is actually more usable than most of them.
On a side note, this is also encouragement for everyone to get out there and try new stuff. As much as everyone rags on ORAS OU, it's extremely diverse and a lot of fun and overlooked Pokemon are actually usable.
Also, shoutouts Tom Bus for believing in the power.
Swellow @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Facade
- U-turn
- Pursuit
Thanks for reading.
Peace,
daft.
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I'm actually seconding this. Swellow is iirc the only Guts user with a base Speed of over 100, and it is actually as much as 125. It outspeeds the majority of the metagame, with the exception of Choice Scarf users and some mons like Mega Sceptile and Aerodactyl. Base 85 Attack is not that much, but with a 1.5 times boost from Guts, it hits hard enough. Facade is also amazing, as it is a STAB move with 140 power and no drawbacks when you are statused. However, Swellow does not deserve to be higher as it does easily get worn down from SR, Toxic damage, and just you switching into something that can tank whatever hit it comes with, and let it take more damage from Toxic whilst it does not do much damage. The post quoted covered most things about Swellow, just wanted to say a little bit about it myself. I think Swellow definetly deserves D rank, at least some discussion.
Thirding Swellow to D rank. Although its niche is small, it is really good as a flying type which can actually do major damage to stuff like Thundy. Anywhere highere is overkill, but D is fitting for such a Pokemon. Also seconding Krookodile to C-, not C. Krook, for the most part, is outclassed by Lando T as a Intimidate Rocks setter witha powerful Ground STAB and Knock Off, and Lando T gets U Turn and a Ground Immunity. The only niche that Krookodile has is Pursuit, but this is such a good advantage that C- is fitting for it.
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