Comments in Bold. I still don't get why you don't belive it not to be OU material, so could you describe it better? Thanks : )
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OU's Overrated mons
- Thread starter TAY
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Comments in Bold. I still don't get why you don't belive it not to be OU material, so could you describe it better? Thanks : )
If Ninjaks is the dedicated Speed Passer, it will never be OHKOed by CB Jolly Weavile's Ice Shard or CB Adamant Scizor's Bullet Punch and almost never 2HKOed by LO Adamant Lucario's Extremespeed.
Alakazam as a Dual Screen Passer has speed, Encore and Inner Focus. There's reason to use him. But that's it. As a Specs or Scarf User, he's asking for death by any Pursuit or priority attack user. At least Gengar has immunities to come in on and a better offensive movepool (Thunderbolt and STAB Shadow Ball > STAB Psychic, Signal Beam and Grass Knot), and Azelf has Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, U-turn and Explosion.
chenman said:
lol no, why would I calculate for Adamant Weavile? My earlier calculation was Jolly Weavile...Adamant Weavile does 107% - 126%.
http://libelldra.com/competitive/damage/
I agree with the pokemon in the OP.
I also think weavile, cresselia and aerodactyl should be added to that list, I personally hate wasting a pokemon just for SR (suicide azelf is fine with me though because it has explosion and can potentially take out another, also deoxyes was great to in sacrificing for SR and screens, but I'd much rather use metagross or azelf then aerodactyl.
I also think weavile, cresselia and aerodactyl should be added to that list, I personally hate wasting a pokemon just for SR (suicide azelf is fine with me though because it has explosion and can potentially take out another, also deoxyes was great to in sacrificing for SR and screens, but I'd much rather use metagross or azelf then aerodactyl.
Weavile is overrated. People only use him for Pursuit and Ice Shard. But Scizor has both Pursuit and a powerful priority move, and the defences and typing to swap in on many other pokemon is more than worth a 2HKO on Salamance and Flygon instead of a OHKO.
I'm alright with peopl calling Aerodactly overrated, though I would personally disagree. He has a sandstorm immunity, improving the use of Focus Sash and is a great match-up against one of the most common leads (Tyranitar) whilst Azelf is a very poor one. Metagross also fails against Jumpman's Lead Tyranitar. And of course, we can't forget Aeordactly's blistering speed combined with Taunt, a combination only beaten by Electrode and Deoxys, ensuring him an advantage against Azelf.
Cresselia is definitely not overrated. She is the definition of a mixed wall with 120 / 120 / 130, walling many common OU threats like Infernape, Gyarados and Salamance with Thunderwave/Psychic, Charge Beam (I prefer HP Electric) and Ice Beam. She is the only non-Steel OU Pokemon who can survive 2 LO Adamant Salamance Outrages. Sure, she lacks a reliable Recovery move, but Wish is becoming more and more useful, and if she packs rest, she can be paired up with a Cleric, or used late game when your opponent has no pokemon capable of breaking her. As for her Pursuit weakness, she can pack Reflect to soften the blow (and she can survive a Tyranitar's CB Pursuit swapping out anyways.)
lol, you are not supposed to be a constant Dual Screener. Just like Deoxy-S, you lead with it, get off a few screens, and then bring a sweeper like Scizor to get 3 SDs off of that switching Tyranitar or Weavile all the easier. But yes, use Psychic. You can break Focus Sashes with it, and even do good damage with 306 SpA. Better yet, Encore the Tyranitar into Pursuit, bring in a Lucario when it dies, and get off a few Sword Dances.
It doesn't seem to me like you've used Alakazam at all. Whatever wants to Pursuit it, needs to be faster, or it will die. That leaves Weavile, but really, Weavile has its own problems.
As a sweeper, all you realling need is Psychic, and moves that complement its type coverage. Psychic / Focus Blast / Shadow Ball / Trick with a Choice Specs. Any team without Scizor or anything faster, or a team that can get rid of said threats using maybe Magnezone or T-wave support is going to be swept pretty easily. And its not like Alakazam dies from the wind any way, it has a good chance of surviving LO Extreme Speed from Lucario.
The problem with Cressalia is she does very little damage. You can't even OHKO the Gyarados setting up on you.
Problem with a Dual Screen Alakazam is that if your opponent has Brick Break (Scizor), a one time use Dual Screen isn't very effective.
OHKOing Gyarados is insignificant when he barely does any damage back to you with. LO Adamant Gyarados does 38.74-45.95% damage to Cresselia, which will never 2HKO with SR thanks to Leftovers. In turn, she will 2HKO back with HP Electric (which is the superior choice over Charge Beam thanks to its superior damage against Gyarados). Most Gyarados aren't LO. Even without HP Electric or Charge Beam, Thunderwave is more than enough against Gyarados.
She may not do much damage, but the same can be said for Blissey, who is arguably the most infamous pokemon in competitive battling. Blissey packs Flamethrower just for Steels, and it does plenty of damage to them. Cresselia packs Ice Beam just for Dragons, and it also does plenty of damage to them.
Cresselia can't pass Wishes, and typically won't use Protect as a direct consequence of it, and those two moves are two of the better support moves in OU. As long as you have the resistances, WishBliss is going to help you more than setting up Reflect, as she absolutely slaughters any choice user.
Cresselia is useful, but very limited considering Vaporeon, Tentacruel, and Starmie can perform similar roles in taking down Infernape, and Gyarados. As for Salamence, EVERY team should have a steel type anyways, so I don't understand why she is so valuable.
I know why; you calculated with no HP EVs. Dual Screen Alakazam runs 252 HP/216 Spd/40 SpD Timid. I just calculated w/o HP EVs and those are the same results as mine.
Btw, Scizor's CB BP never 1hkoes Zam either without your reflect up, so you can always get a screen up against Scizor if it leads, or 2 if they switch to him.
Then Jolly Weavile does not 1hko.
However, unless Weavile is dumb enough to Fake Out at the beginning, you do lose to Weavile leads.
However, that is about the only lead you will truly never be able to a screen up, though of course, Weavile leads are pretty rare.
And Psychic is the best move to have; 2hkos Aerodactyl, obviously beats Gengar (and you can survive Scarf Gengar's Shadow Ball sometime) and Infernape, and breaks sashes. You still get your reflect up against Tyranitar if he crunches, and get two screens up if he pursuits and get an even better set up move.
I've used Dual Screen Zam extensively btw, and he is pretty close to being as good as Deoxys-e. Less speed, but Encore is just so good.
Cresselia. Ive tried this thing over and over and it hits so hard it isnt even funny. It can counter mixed sweepers like nothing but dies to a CBTar easily. It is total set up bait. Shallow movepool doesn't help much.
Flygon. 120 base power STAB won't make up for 100Base attack. If it had swords dance or dragon dance it would be a top-tier threat. Sadly that didn't happen in platinum.
Flygon. 120 base power STAB won't make up for 100Base attack. If it had swords dance or dragon dance it would be a top-tier threat. Sadly that didn't happen in platinum.
Heatran with the title "Best Choice-Scarfer" - I chose this guy to be overrated and it shouldn't even be given the title "Best Choice-Scarfer in the metagame" today. Simply because it's being used too much now and I don't see it enough because everyone knows the typical moveset
-Fire Blast
-Earth Power
-HP [Ice] / HP [Grass]
-Explosion
Looking at it, it looks set-up prone, the likes of Salamence will come in on HP [Grass] or Earth Power on a prediction or after a kill. Letting someone like Salamence set up is deadly nowadays, unless your packing a good Ice Sharder user. It's just too much to build around Heatran to come in on the switch ins on Heatran. The only thing that makes it good is that steel type slapped to it making it a candidate for switch ins, but the uncertainty of using attacks and opponents switch outs are too difficult. It's still a good scarfer, but I think removing that title as "Best Choice-Scarfer of the metagame" today should be removed. OOOVERATED.
-Fire Blast
-Earth Power
-HP [Ice] / HP [Grass]
-Explosion
Looking at it, it looks set-up prone, the likes of Salamence will come in on HP [Grass] or Earth Power on a prediction or after a kill. Letting someone like Salamence set up is deadly nowadays, unless your packing a good Ice Sharder user. It's just too much to build around Heatran to come in on the switch ins on Heatran. The only thing that makes it good is that steel type slapped to it making it a candidate for switch ins, but the uncertainty of using attacks and opponents switch outs are too difficult. It's still a good scarfer, but I think removing that title as "Best Choice-Scarfer of the metagame" today should be removed. OOOVERATED.
100 base attack isn't bad at all - Kingdra is at 95 and everyone knows what a threat that thing is. Flygon is a very, very good Pokemon - virtual immunity to all entry hazards, Levitate, a great typing and terrific STAB moves are more than enough. Flygon is most definitely not underrated.
flygon has stab that hit everything neutral except for bronzong, which he can u turn out against for damage and the switch. AND he only has 2 weaknesses. Pretty damn similiar is you ask me
Kingdra has many set up moves while flygon has none.
Flygon does best as a scarfer/bander. And with U Turn, and his virtual immunity to passive damage, he does a great job at it since he can just constantly switch in and out. 100 BP is just enough to get by for the scarfer, as he can use moves like Stone Edge to KO plenty of Zapdos and Gyara, EQ to hit steels quite hard, and get plenty of 2hkoes with Outrage. And it certainly is enough for the CBer, as once physical walls and steels are gone, he can really rampage up a bit. As a sweeper, he is mediocre at best, though the mixed set can bring some surprises.
It's really his typing matched with his Levitate that makes him so great. He isn't meant to sweep; but he is a very good transition pokemon because of his ability to switch in and out so often. Kingdra makes the better sweeper, but it can't do what Flygon does in switching in and out. Residual damage also kicks Kingdra's ass. Kingdra may only have 1 weakness, but he needs to take SS damage, 12% from rocks, no immunities (that's big, Flygon gets a cool Electric and Ground one!), and spikes/tspikes damage.
You're thinking Flygon sucks as a sweeper; and he basically does. But as the "glue" for a team, he is very good.
And Dragon/EQ STABs really are great. Because you get STAB on two attacks that each have high base power. Its what made Garchomp so good, since once you add a Fire attack, you have perfect coverage.
It's really his typing matched with his Levitate that makes him so great. He isn't meant to sweep; but he is a very good transition pokemon because of his ability to switch in and out so often. Kingdra makes the better sweeper, but it can't do what Flygon does in switching in and out. Residual damage also kicks Kingdra's ass. Kingdra may only have 1 weakness, but he needs to take SS damage, 12% from rocks, no immunities (that's big, Flygon gets a cool Electric and Ground one!), and spikes/tspikes damage.
You're thinking Flygon sucks as a sweeper; and he basically does. But as the "glue" for a team, he is very good.
And Dragon/EQ STABs really are great. Because you get STAB on two attacks that each have high base power. Its what made Garchomp so good, since once you add a Fire attack, you have perfect coverage.
Not really. That would be like saying roar is a set up move. Screech's purpose is to force switched.
Mostly agreeing with everything OP, but a few things about Donphan from my personal experience.
Donphan has Ice Shard and Rapid Spin/Odor Sleuth, which are really the things that are keeping it OU. Donphan can fulfill a unique combination of roles on a team with one set: Stopping Dragon sweeps, stopping all Tyranitars, and getting rid of stealth rocks without being blocked. In my mind, this unique combination is what barely keeps Donphan in the black, and is a testament to what a nuisance Stealth Rock and Dragon types have become in this game. Hippowdon may be better at everything else Donphan can do, namely Stealth Rock, phazing and physical walling, but that is duly reflected in their respective usage stats. I think ~#50 is a fair spot for Donphan, who is a mediocre pokemon made useful by a metagame centered around stealth rock, Dragons and Steel types.
Donphan has Ice Shard and Rapid Spin/Odor Sleuth, which are really the things that are keeping it OU. Donphan can fulfill a unique combination of roles on a team with one set: Stopping Dragon sweeps, stopping all Tyranitars, and getting rid of stealth rocks without being blocked. In my mind, this unique combination is what barely keeps Donphan in the black, and is a testament to what a nuisance Stealth Rock and Dragon types have become in this game. Hippowdon may be better at everything else Donphan can do, namely Stealth Rock, phazing and physical walling, but that is duly reflected in their respective usage stats. I think ~#50 is a fair spot for Donphan, who is a mediocre pokemon made useful by a metagame centered around stealth rock, Dragons and Steel types.
Erm, pretty much. Dragon/Ground is a phenomenmal typing, and everyone with a brain will acknowledge that.
You're also not going to use Flygon as a sweeper in the way that you're thinking, but it's an excellent cleaner. If your opponent has lost all their levitators or steels, than Flygon is going to absolutely going to go to town. U-turn is also a terrific move. Ultimately, you're going to use Flygon and Kingdra for very different things in the end.
You could use them on the same team though. :naughty:
Actually Salamence-Flygon make a better team. Early game Salamence breaks walls and runs amuck trying to scare the enemy out of its wits. It has a high chance of luring out the enemy steel type and eliminating/weakening it with fire/ground/fighting moves. Flygon backs it up by absorbing Stone Edge/Thunder Waves and creating better match-ups in general for offensive strategy.
Salamence probably succumbs to SR/LO/Sand damage at some point late-mid game, but flygon with it's immunities against passive damage is still feeling fresh.
With the enemy walls weakened (especially the ones oriented to stop salamence like steel types) Flygon proceeds to clean house in the late game.
Something like that anyway.
Actually Salamence-Flygon make a better team. Early game Salamence breaks walls and runs amuck trying to scare the enemy out of its wits. It has a high chance of luring out the enemy steel type and eliminating/weakening it with fire/ground/fighting moves. Flygon backs it up by absorbing Stone Edge/Thunder Waves and creating better match-ups in general for offensive strategy.
Salamence probably succumbs to SR/LO/Sand damage at some point late-mid game, but flygon with it's immunities against passive damage is still feeling fresh.
With the enemy walls weakened (especially the ones oriented to stop salamence like steel types) Flygon proceeds to clean house in the late game.
Something like that anyway.
The problem with the taking out Steels + Ground immunity theory is that a team is often comprised of mainly those mons. I'd personally prefer a cleaner that doesn't require so much setup (eg. 4/6 of your oppenent's team gone) before it does its magic.
It's not Steel Types and Ground immunities, it's Steel Types or Ground Immunities. Also, there is zero set up. You aren't forcing this, it's just good synergy-- the sweep happens naturally just by having sets that work well together. If it doesn't go exactly as planned, well a good team should have a back up strategy after all. >>
Moot point, considering the fact that teams often carry multiples of said mons
I'm assuming by "the sweep happens naturally just by having sets that work well together" that you use mons that open the way for each other, such as SD Scizor and SD Lucario. For example, Player A is playing Player B. A realises Player B has a massive SD Lucario weakness once his Restalk Gyarados is removed from play. Player A switches in SD Scizor, forcing Player B to switch in the said Gyarados. Scizor is used as a sacrifice to heavily damage the Gyarados, thus making it easy to finish off. This tactic does indeed require setup as you are using your Scizor to setup for the sweep.
Flygon lack a boosting item, Rain strengthening its STABS and of course, DD.
Flygon is okay - far from awful but not
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