Platinum/HG/SS Battle Frontier and DP Battle Tower Records

From what I can tell, the problem for Salamence is the lack of speed vs OHKO users just as much as the SD vs DD thing. Someone posted a useful list of OHKOer speeds after tricking them the scarf and Garchomp is 'safe' for a lot more than Adamant Salamence. I've gotten lucky with misses so far trying to work around it, but Garchomp's speed would be useful. I'm still trying to find that post again and see if Jolly would be better...

Nice to see all of these new one sweeper +stealth rock teams. I was kicking around something similar ages ago with a sturdy pokemon as the second crippler that I could never quite get to work.


Here we go. And Bozo had the same Jolly vs Adamant Salamence discussion as well earlier. And the EV spread analysis. Hmm.

Incidentally, why are you using the EV spreads you picked? It looks like you have the potential to be screwed over by OHKOs, perhaps pushing Empoleon to 81 speed to outrun Sheer Cold Lapras and Abomasnow would be useful? I have 252Attack/6SpD/252Spe at the moment on my Salamence without any real good reasoning behind it. And any chance you have a list of struggle strength categories you wouldn't mind sharing?
I only saw four that fit in the Salamence prob/Garchomp no prob category. They all have SE attacks vs Latias, three are STAB. Three of them are faster than Garchomp if they have a plus speed nature.

If you're talking about my current Salamence spread, I'm going to change my extra point from HP to Def, Porys don't concern me. If you're talking about my recommended spread. I think a 43 point substitute will be more useful than the one point of Attack and Speed.

In terms of Struggles, I just go by the Attack values in the database, and experience gained from battling.

@fluffyflyingpig I'm using Platinum.
I only saw four that fit in the Salamence prob/Garchomp no prob category. They all have SE attacks vs Latias, three are STAB. Three of them are faster than Garchomp if they have a plus speed nature.

If you're talking about my current Salamence spread, I'm going to change my extra point from HP to Def, Porys don't concern me. If you're talking about my recommended spread. I think a 43 point substitute will be more useful than the one point of Attack and Speed.

In terms of Struggles, I just go by the Attack values in the database, and experience gained from battling.
I thought I had put this link in my earlier post as well. Oops. Jump and Bozo discussing Garchomp vs Salamence speed issues. Apologies if you've already seen it.

Are you playing HG/SS? I was under the impression that natures are fixed for HG/SS.

The extra hp make sense, losing the speed tie shouldn't really matter. And before I forget again, congrats on your latest streak.

Oh, yah, I forgot about Protecting on struggle not having recoil. So it should work! Probably might as well have Lum instead of recovery then in that case, for Static/Flame Body.

EDIT: By that token, since Drapion's not taking any hits anyway (or at least... does not need to), more attack EVs can be used instead to get more KOs. And also, similarly, because the stat booster does not even need to take any hits, things like Acupressure Dodrio (with Drill Peck) is totally viable as well... any stat booster that has a no-immune mono-attack (preferably STAB) can work probably, not as fail-safe as Acupressure though I guess, but faster set up.
Hmm. You'd need weather on Uxie if you drop recovery on Drapion. Focus Sash is on Aianto for Quick Claw critical hits. Thinking about it some more, you should drop Baton Pass so Aianto struggles to death. I didn't run any calcs so I'm not sure how much you'd need to invest in SpA to kill Blissey, if it is feasible at all. The wildcard remains how the U-Turn/switch/curse/perish song AI works though. Replacing Uxie with Latios with Roar would be the easiest way around AI quirks. Battles would all take a painfully long time if it does work at any rate, not sure I have the dedication to try to match the HGSS records.

Apparently Grissom used the same Uxie/Salamence/Drapion I've been using, but was disqualified? Guess I'm even less original than I though. Oh well, learning to play has kept me entertained while recuperating. 231 now, weeeeeee.
Remember, you only have 16 Protects; you can't set up infinitely, and since Acupressure takes 21 turns to fully set up (assuming you don't end in accuracy/SpAtk boosts, in which case you can stop early as long as you've gotten at least one accuracy boost), the ability to take hits if necessary (after defense boosts) would be very helpful. Dodrio's so insanely frail, I doubt its Subs could live through a decent hit even with the defense boosts.

I would absolutely go for recovery over Lum on Drapion. The opposing lead won't have Flame Body, Static, or Effect Spore, since they'll have Truant, meaning you'll only have two fight two Pokemon with Drapion. Almost everything with one of those abilities will die in one hit to Drapion's Crunch; the only thing I can think of that might live is Breloom, but neither Sleep nor paralysis is that big of a deal when you're fully set up, which leaves Flame Body Pokemon as the only threat that's left. With a healing item, it will take 15 turns to die from the burn, during which time you will pretty much always have KO'd the opponent's third Pokemon; even Steelix can't take anywhere near that many Crunches. But with a Lum Berry, using Substitutes becomes a liability (and, as mentioned, weather is a huge pain), meaning bulky crap like Rhyperior can keep throwing Earthquakes at you, and it doesn't take nearly as much luck for it to wear you down and leave you relatively vulnerable (either at low health or Subless).

That said, I'm interested in finding out what else works. It's not like we have any idea when (or if) Truant Aianto will be released.

Oh yeah, and watch out for Cursed Body Jellicent, as it will totally screw up the strategy if it's the second Pokemon. To be fair, it rarely will be, on account of its Dark weakness.
16 protects + 3/4 struggles (do you struggle on loafing turns?) takes you to 19/21 accupressure boosts. That should be good enough for Drapion. Dodrio or Shuckle or something would probably have more problems. Comedy Smergle option?

Edit> wait you're not tricking them. Dammit, I am getting things confused. I blame painkillers. Tricking would work just fine though since the other pokemon can't hurt itself if you protect on the struggle, but the lead only has four moveslots and you may want to change moves. Telekenisis and Safeguard seem most important, remaining options seem to be Roar/Twave/Trick/Twave for Latias, Twave/Trick for Cresselia, and Yawn/Memento/Trick for Uxie. Hmm. At any rate Lum on the lead makes it more likely you get safeguard/telekenisis/whatever off vs a choice scarf... maybe. I should look at the movesets TRE was kind enough to provide. Thanks TRE!

Cursed body would be a pain, but Disable has a timer now, so you can wait it out with Accupressure.
For Battle Tower players:
I'm currently offering my flawless Latias and Scizor in my trade thread (details in thread,) as well as my original self-acquired Latias and Scizor for free. I will soon also have a Registeel, and will have up my Salamence.
Please keep in mind that if you notify me now, I may not be able to trade with you for a long time, due to a vacation over next weekend, weekday time constraints, and a large list of pending trades.
great streaks, well done people :)

this isnt a game breaking streak or anything but i'm running one last ditch effort to get a decent streak in singles (always struggle think i'm to impatient so only done resonably well in doubles). i believe its kinda different i've had quick search and couldnt find anyone else using/have used the theme so thought i'd post it.

just lost at battle 86 :( so close from my 100 aim (first try). so like i said its not game breaking or anything but just after some views on how to improve it while people still interested in tower lol

anyway 2 the team -

Name:latias@choice scarf
2.thunder wave

i no already ur thinking omg captivate lol but its the sets selling point due to my next poke. you all no the general idea so wont go into detail. same ev's as jumpmans so credit to him :)

2nd poke

Evs:252HP, rest split into Defensives roughly 100/152 i think?can work it out if u wana no

now you see the point ;) lol. my favorite pokemon and it does such a fantastic job. obviously its job is so so simple, switch in after lati faints or to take an attack, charm/captivate/flash etc and wish to PPstall/heal himself and team m8s. just does an amazing job. PP stalled by himself in couple desperate times. main reason charm is on this set aswell as lati is so i can take ice punches. also due to latis main job to trick + twave she can sometimes be in a bad state so umbreon picks up the slack. truely impressive.

Sweeper -

Name:Scizor@lum berry
Evs: 80HP/252Atk/4Def/4SpD/168Spe
1.Swords dance
4.Bullet Punch

and this is where the hard work pays off. you all no how scizor works so again not going to go on about it. same scizor as jumpmans so credit again. i chosen to run lum mainly because he is my only sweeper i cant take the risk of statuses ruining me. and its saved me plently of times.

so yeah theres basic team. simple and sure it'l be effective soon lol.

main troublesome pokes i came across was regirock, due to not being able to reduce him apart from twave and his rock slide takes a big dent out scizor so normally PPstall with umbreon then trick scarf back. to hopefully lock it in sandstorm but he does make me panic alot.

i thought metagross would be same kinda problem but so far he's only ever ice punched which team handles ok.

The pokemon that worries me the most so far tho is yanmega, wen i c one in lead i freeze lol. so far i always twave turn one, hopefully locking it into DT or something useless if its an attack i try charm or get the right captivate on it a few times.

if i'm unsure on what to do i'l always PP stall with umbreon and either set up on the struggles or retrick-trick to hopefully something less damaging.

And obviously OHKO moves are soul destroying! but was lucky in this streak only got hit by 3! and at one point my naked umbreon sat infront dewdong to watch it miss 4 HD in a row ;) lol

loss was kinda a misplay and kinda me worrying. cant remember lead but i was at plus 6 behind sub but low orange health vs entei. i didnt think BP would ko so went for the SP. he broke my sub but i KO'd with SP so was feeling good specially having umbreon middle health and lati in low red. in comes riakou. obviously i couldnt outspeed it and i wasnt confodent BP could OHKO so i switched to lati as death folder and was KO'd by TB. send in umbreon to be KO'd by a crit then he easierly finished of scizor :(. i had a slight chance of winning if i'd bullet punched but o well.

so basicly i'm saying goodbye to my social life untill the 4th (whoop) to ensure that i break 100 with this team. just looking for some general insight/hints/change ideas and views on the team, i no its not world class but i really enjoy using it :)

cheers for reading :)
Update 77 wins in pokemon pearl battle tower CPU controlled trainer

my team
Starmie timid choice specs ice beam/psychic/thunderbolt/surf
garchomp adamant yache berry outrage/sword dance/fire fang/earthquake
I'm gonna try the Battle Hall with my Electivire. I wonder why nobody has a record with it. I have a Physical set and a Special set (for the rock/ground).
Nobody has a record with it, probably because it is not that fast, it is fairly frail, and it does not hit hard enough to OHKO many things. Scarf can remedy the speed but not its attacking power. Specs/Band can remedy the attacking power but not its speed, so it might be a bit tough. Good luck with your streak though. Maybe you'll find a middle ground somewhere to solve those problems.

@ashez: Latias certainly does not need 240 speed EVs (which iirc gets Latias to 176 speed?). I'm not sure what that speed tries to outspeed. Latias does not need to have more than 158 speed I think (for outspeeding base 85 no speed EV pokemon like Articuno which sits at 105 speed, or 157 after scarf). You can even lower it to 151 (for outspeeding no speed base 80s) if you want. Then you can give Latias more physical bulk.

QC MM Metagross which you haven't faced yet apparently (cuz it will use MM) will be fairly troublesome for your team. For Metagross... your best bet is to use Reflect I think (Reflect over Charm for Latias), but Charm is too useful to pass up as a lead though (You will need to lead off with Charm on things like Staraptor, Heracross, and Rampardos maybe?).

EDIT:O yeah, this should be obvious but I made the same mistake as you lol. When you are facing something that outspeeds Scizor that Bullet Punch can't OHKO but can 2HKO... even if Superpower can OHKO, you should always just Bullet Punch, because at least that doesn't lower Scizor's attack, so 2 BPs to KO and at least Scizor is at +6 without a sub instead of +5 -1Def without a sub.

ALSO, from my experience with Scizor as the only sweeper... there will be situations where Scizor is fairly unlikely to win. With my Scizor team, Leftovers on Scizor and Stealth Rock on my Uxie help lower the chance of encountering those situations (e.g. at +6 Scizor Bullet Punch will likely KO Entei and Raikou after stealth rock, and leftovers increases the chance of Scizor surviving an attack even when naked)... maybe something you can consider.

I dunno, maybe I'll say more later. Gonna get back to work now. Good luck.
c your point on latis speed, i just looked at jumpmans evs and asummed they were the best due to best record so i might try change them depending on time i have due to preorder black to get it day its out so only got a week to try nail this lol.

wen the team was in idea stage i considered that metagross to be a major problem, but like u sed i didnt run into it. the reflect idea is interesting, might look into how well umbreon can set up using his charms while under its effects.

was first time i've used scizor for anything more than a clean up poke so was learning how to use him as i went, but from now on BP all the way lol.

when i first planed the team i didnt want to use lum berry i was going to use the steel move boosting item but due to no memento i didnt like idea of having scizor switching in on twaves/WOWs and thats main reason for lum. and a few times in that streak i was static'd so was usefull. if it wasnt for heatran i'd run roost instead of superpower.

was wondering does superpower gain u any extra Ko's that brick break misses out on? really dont like the A+D drops lol.

Edit- ment to say do you think torment could be better than wish?
u trying any last streaks?
You have to understand why Jumpman used the EVs he used instead of just taking them and assuming they are the best hehe. Notice Jumpman wasn't using a trick scarf strategy for that streak with Latias? 240 was mainly for outspeedig Jolly Garchomp. That's without any scarf.

I mentioned reflect just because that'd increase your chance of being able to set Scizor up, but without a charm lead you *might* have problems with other leads (like Staraptor/Heracross/Rampardos which I think I mentioned). So I dunno. You can just give things a try and see.

Torment allows for Scizor to set up on Struggles, which is good, but I dunno, without leftovers, it'd be hard to even set up on struggles sometimes (definitely better than setting up on MM though and most STAB resisted moves still though). I'm not sure if it's better than wish. In a way they do the same thing (funny to say that)... since essentially the ultimate goal is that they both allow Scizor to set up on struggles, but wish also has the benefit of recovering pokemon other than itself, which might come in handy too.

Sorry, I'm just blabbering. I don't actually know how to "fix" your team, because there are going to be problems regardless, and it's not like I ever created a "perfect" team myself or else my streak would have been much higher by now.

Nope I haven't been playing. Too busy lately. Just taking a break right now.

+6 Superpower guarantees OHKO on Slowking after stealth rock (Brick Break and Bullet Punch have no chance to do that). I dunno why. That's the only thing that I remember. Your team doesn't have stealth rock though so that's kind of pointless. I'm pretty sure there are a few (definitely not very many) things that Superpower gets the KO on.

Also, it's not just heatran. Heatran is the most threatening since it can OHKO, but you kind of need that fighting move for Empoleon and Magnezone too (probably even Lanturn).
lol sorry dont mean to ask so much lol just like a second opinion because they'l always be something i'l miss lol

o and i understand no team will be perfect ha!

i skimed jumps post must have misread it so'l look into the ev change if have time for it all

if i have heart scale i might try out torment unsure as yet

anyway as always thanks for the advice hopefully get this team working by friday :)
congrats TRE - some great streaks there! you gonna do castle?

that is a pretty cool strategy, but a lot more luck dependant, since things can wake up quickly, have berries, etc. but yawn's flawless accuracy is awesome - something trick unfortunately does not have (why does trick often miss, yet when you get bright powder their move never misses).
I know that this an old post, but...

I find " a lot more luck dependent" to be inaccurate, "time dependent" would be much more accurate. That's the main reason I switched to using Trick, even though both of my successful teams still implement Yawn. Usually, by choice, I don't have the time to do extensive BT runs,even though I'd like to. Sometimes, I'm lucky if I do four rounds in a week. Good, fast Trick teams give me a reasonable chance to climb up the leaderboard. My Yawn teams require too much of my concentration. When I play, I'm always also doing something else. I have a strong Yawn team that I'm considering using in Plt or B/W after my current team loses.

The threats are different for each strategy. I don't ever remember having trouble with OHKO leads. My Hippo had problems with DDers. Jolteon, didn't have that problem. Instead, Jolteon had a lot more problems with DTers and sub users.

Yawn + Focus Sash, nearly guarantees that my lead will get to use three moves and have a sub up against a sleeping opponent. Yawn allowed my Hippo to use Sandstream to take out the first pokemon, or even better, make sure that it was in KO range for Garchomp. With Charm and Flash, Jolteon was the embodiment of the word "crippler"(I'm going to name my next Jolteon that). In my D/P 192 win streak, I ONLY used Jolteon and Garchomp in about 180 or more of them. I'll say it again, the main difference for me is, if something gets Tricked into almost any non damaging move, its GG.

Luck was no more of a factor in my D/P Yawn teams or my Plt Trick teams. Each of my three losses to end D/P streaks of 227?, 246 and 311 were my fault, not the team, and certainly not hax, even though there was some bad luck involved.

Have Trick teams had more success than Yawn teams? There is no debate to be had on that subject. Now that I've put up a 489 and a 518+ streak, on consecutive runs, I do think that my Trick teams are probably better than my Yawn teams. I still would not characterize Yawn as "a lot more luck dependent".
420 consecutive wins in the SS Battle Tower seems like a good stopping point.

After two false starts while learning how to play I've finally got a nice streak put together. Don't think I'm going to try to extend it now that Black and White are almost here.

Uxie@Choice Sash
-Thunder Wave

Salamence@Lum Berry
-Dragon Dance

Drapion@Black Sludge

Plays like a cross between Jumpman's magnum opus and FastHippo's Trick/Wall/Salamence PP stall teams, with close to a 50/50 split in Salamence/Drapion kills. Team is not terribly original and EVs are mostly shamelessly stolen from other teams. But hey, this combo isn't on the record board, so why not.

Specific thanks/credit to FastHippo and Jumpman for inspiration.

Team Selection and EVs
Garchomp looks dumb. That's basically why I used Salamence. Intimidate and Bug/Water/Grass/Ground resists are nice bonuses. I already had the Uxie from a failed earlier team. No one else used Uxie/Drapion/Salamence on the list, so the team was set.

I've been too lazy to run calcs, so the EVs are mostly 'inspired' by other teams. 136 speed on Uxie outspeeds Metagross and base 70s after the trick. Salamence spread tweeked thanks to FastHippo. Drapion is at Def=SpD+1 for lack of anything better. I have guaranteed Intimidate support so I figured I could skew more toward the special side. Suggestions in this regard would be appreciated.

Specific Threats and Salamence vs Garchomp discussion:


Tinted Lens Bug Buzz Yanmega. Second loss. Hate hate hate.
Sticky Hold. Haven't seen Gatrodon leads at all yet.
Quick Claw Fissure/Stone Edge Donphan. This guy was happy to demonstrate that a mostly set up Drapion is still mortal contrary to Jump's claims. Two fissures and a QC activation = dead Drapion. Salamence luckily cleaned up without a second QC activation. Closest call this run.

Problems specific to Uxie/Salamence
Curse Muk. Early loss while figuring out how to play the team
Curse Hippo
Flare Blitz/Brave Bird/Double Edge/Rock Head/Recoil. Intimidate helps, but still annoying
Charm on my lead would have been more useful for all of the above...
Thunderpunch. Hate setting up Drapion on a paralysis move. Counting all the way to 15 to set up on struggles sucks.
OHKOers. Pretty luck so far here.
Chomp's extra speed helps out compared to Mence for a couple of these guys. And Chomp is immune to electric moves, of course. But neither has been a major problem yet.

Non Problems for Uxie/Salamence

Outrage. Easy setup thanks to Intimidate, even when Uxie dies without doing anything after tricking. Drapion can set up on Outrage against something with -2 attack without a problem
Heracross. Drapion can stall -1 Megahorn for Salamence to set up on struggles.
Signal Beam. Usually takes 4-5 hits to beak Mence's sub after Memento, no confusion chance.
Fast status users immune to EQ. Uxie can Yawn->Memento to preserve Mence's Lum Berry, no need to PP stall
Strong Special Attacks. Yay Memento.

On the whole, Salamence/Uxie seems to compare pretty favorably to Mespirit/Garchomp. Occasionally I wish I had Charm, but between Yawn/Memento/Intimidate there is usually a workaround. Someone please point out the obvious flaws I am missing.

420 consecutive wins in the SS Battle Tower seems like a good stopping point.

Plays like a cross between Jumpman's magnum opus and FastHippo's Trick/Wall/Salamence PP stall teams, with close to a 50/50 split in Salamence/Drapion kills. Team is not terribly original and EVs are mostly shamelessly stolen from other teams. But hey, this combo isn't on the record board, so why not.

Specific thanks/credit to FastHippo and Jumpman for inspiration.
Congratulations, I'm glad to have been able to help. You may want to play another round. That way you can upload a video of your last win (or defeat). If not, you're probably going to need to upload a picture of your 420.

Setting up on Struggles, especially without Yawn, only allows Salamence to get 1-3 DDs. Without Stealth Rock support, how did you handle Focus Sash, Counter Sash and pokemon that Salamence can't OHKO without SR support? Without proper setup, Salamence has to rely on Outrage a lot more, which causes more problems.

Also, you may want to take 4 points out of Drapion's speed and defense(defense should stay the same), the 8 points will get you another point of special defense. Or even better, just leave 4 points in defense, and max out special defense.
Any suggestions on dealing with this wonderfully frequent occurrence?

Sharpedo hangs on with it's Focus Sash!
Sharpedo uses Ice Fang!
<Your Pokemon> is frozen solid!
<Every Pokemon that isn't Slugma/Camerupt> is frozen solid!
Sharpedo uses Ice Fang/whatever the hell else it wants!
<Your Pokemon> faints!

I've lost 7 200+ Hall streaks because of this asshole :( Aside from using a Lum during Dark/Ground/Water/Ice (which is functionally ineffective for Dragons anyways), I can't think of anything to counter freezing hax. Even Para-hax seem easier to deal with than "you freeze, you lose".
If you are 2HKO'd by opponent, being frozen actually has a higher chance of winning than being paralyzed (which has 0 chance after first turn).

If you use Kingdra, Sharpedo will use Crunch instead of Ice Fang. (Of course, other things can still freeze hax you, but more likely only ice types will use ice moves since it only hits neutral). I'm assuming you're keen on using a dragon... otherwise, just use something that doesn't attract ice.

Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this, but I figure it would be alright since there are a lot of Battle Tower players here.

I'm looking for someone with HG/SS and a lot of BP. I only have Diamond and I want to teach one of my Pokemon Pain Split and another Ice Punch. Please PM me if you are able to help and we can work out some kind of swap.
When will the Battle Subway thread be up? They are out in English now.
I'm planning on getting to 49 by the end of this weekend, and will start today.
Trick and Battle Subway

I figured I'd post this info here since there isn't an active Battle Subway thread and Black/White have been released in Europe.

Anyway, TrickScarf got nerfed on Battle Subway. It seems that if the opponent is locked into a non-damaging move, it switches out. Most of the time, the opposing Pokemon switches out immediately, but sometimes it switches after a couple of turns.

Here are some tests I did using a Latias with Trick/Thunder Wave/Charm/Flash. Assume Latias stays in after the initial Trick unless stated otherwise.

1) I Trick a Choice Scarf onto a Weezing; it locks itself into Shadow Ball. I switch in Scizor, Sub and SD three times, and sweep.
2) I Trick Bronzong, it uses Trick Room. The AI switches.
3) I Trick Ursaring, it uses Thrash. Scizor sets up and sweeps. Ursaring stays in even after it's confused.
4) I Trick Meganium, it uses Light Screen. The AI switches.
5) I Trick Marowak, it uses Swords Dance. The AI switches one turn later.
6) I Trick Breloom, it uses Stun Spore. The AI switches.
7) I Trick Skuntank, it uses Night Slash. Scizor sets up and sweeps.
8) I Trick Granbull, it uses Metronome (and picks Egg Bomb). The AI switches.
9) I Trick Jynx, it uses Lovely Kiss. The AI switches three turns later (oddly, it switched the turn after Latias woke up).
10) lol Klutz Golurk
11) I Trick Feraligatr, it uses Block. The AI switches.

As you can see, the AI's wised up a bit.
Holy shit :O

I wouldn't consider it a total nerf, though. It can certainly be played around with Sub, Charm, and Sp. Def EVs. More theorymon may be necessary, though.
This will mean I'll switch to Drapion/Mesprit after 49, though.
Also, I'm fairly sure this makes Salamence superior to Garchomp now.
I'm happy about that if anything. Room for more creativity in strategies! :) Maybe streaks might not be as high (or maybe other strategies will make that happen), but it'll be fun and interesting coming out with new ideas.
Just beat the Single Line (first 21 battles,) and will move on to the Super Single Line soon. Before my team, some quick calcs:
Sheer Cold Beartic: 70 Speed
Sheer Cold Cryogonal: 172 Speed
Sheer Cold Vanilluxe: 99 Speed
Sheer Cold Walrein: 85 Speed
Sheer Cold Articuno: 105 Speed
Horn Drill Rapidash: 172 Speed
Horn Drill Rhyperior: 60 Speed
Guillotine Fraxure: 119 Speed
Guillotine Pinsir: 150 Speed
Fissure users can be stalled out. Anyway, to outspeed 172 with a Scarf, Timid Latias needs no Speed EVs at all, provided Thunder Wave is used with perfect prediction. Therefore, mine will not have any yet.

I'm planning that my team will be:
Latias@Choice Scarf
Timid Nature
252 HP/252 Def/4 SpD
- Trick
- Charm
- Thunder Wave
- Flash
If you lock into a status move, just gopher the Thunder Wave second turn, and proceed to Charm or switch as needed. Flash instead of Recover to help cripple, which is what this needs as much as possible due to Trick's lower reliability.

Drapion@Black Sludge
Careful Nature
252 HP/252 SpD/4 Spe
- Acupressure
- Substitute
- Crunch
- Rest
Basic Drapion, but without Jump's specialized EVs, because this isn't 4th Gen anymore.

Adamant Nature
116 HP/252 Atk/142 SpD
- Swords Dance
- Substitute
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
Scizor partners better than a Dragon when Latias is the lead. I don't know what I need to outspeed yet, so all extra EVs go into Sp. Def with none in Speed.

EDIT: This doesn't quite work as expected, and I have another team in the works. However, I'm going to wait a while to post it.

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