With Encore it could act well as a Gravity user/lead. I prefer Starmie.
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Pokémon HeartGold & SoulSilver - The Offical Competitive Discussion Thread
- Thread starter RBG
- Start date
- Status
I just realized Venusaur learned Block. I think it would be a really potent user of it with Leech Seed and all. Maybe some sort of weird staller with Block / Leech Seed / Sub / Sludge Bomb would work.
U-turn is just a lot more useful than bug bite as others have also mentioned.
Besides, bug has horrible coverage.
Scizor has been at the top of the OU tier for a long time, but with the addition of Bug Bite, it will likely be worthy of suspect testing. Now the Pokemon that counter SD Scizor will have an even more powerful STAB move to deal with if they are slower. It is also likely many CB Scizor will forgo Quick Attack or Pursuit for Bug Bite just for cases when U-turn isn't strong enough. With a little entry hazard support, even things like Swampert get 2HKOed by Bug Bite when U-turn wouldn't suffice.
X-Scissor is still used on various Scizor sets, Bug Bite is 15 BP more powerful. It still has usefulness, so it's a welcome addition.
Swords Dance Scizor still cannot get past its usual counters, those being Rotom-A, Zapdos, and Gyarados. Bug Bite won't be getting past Magnezone or Heatran anytime soon either. 15 more base power really is not that much at all, and when you do have U-turn there is really no use for Bug Bite as you suggested on the Choice Band set. It is not like 15 more base power means 'OMG I CAN FINALLY BEAT CRESSELIA!!' Bug Bite also doesn't have the great effect of U-turn either, getting in a counter to Zapdos, or Heatran. If a Heatran switches in on Bug Bite, something is going to be eating a Fire Blast, which is not so with U-turn. As to the Swampert case, if Swampert switches in your can easily bring in Celebi or something else to make it switch out, adding up entry hazard damage, usually taking it into KO range. Bug Bite won't OHKO Hippowdon either even after a Swords Dance.
All considered, Scizor will still be easily counterable, even with Bug Bite. Certainly not worthy of a suspect test.
I think you're overestimating the uses of bug bite. X-scissor is 80*STAB, isn't it? Bug Bite is only 90*STAB after Technician. It's still only a decently strong move with not much coverage, certainly not worth dropping Pursuit or Quick Attack for. SD Scizors will definitely use it and that's it.
I think Bug Bite Scizor is getting both over and underestimated.
First of all, I think we can agree on it now being better than X-Scissor, hands down. It'll exhibit roughly a 12% increase in damage with virtually no drawbacks.
Compared to U-Turn, it still comes down to preference. The difference is that Bug Bite got an increase in favor. Rather than sacrificing ~14% gain in power for an awesome effect (with X-Scissor), you'd be sacrificing ~28% gain in power for an awesome effect. In my opinion, that makes it a lot tougher of a decision.
First of all, I think we can agree on it now being better than X-Scissor, hands down. It'll exhibit roughly a 12% increase in damage with virtually no drawbacks.
Compared to U-Turn, it still comes down to preference. The difference is that Bug Bite got an increase in favor. Rather than sacrificing ~14% gain in power for an awesome effect (with X-Scissor), you'd be sacrificing ~28% gain in power for an awesome effect. In my opinion, that makes it a lot tougher of a decision.
X-Scissor has no added effect... Even if it U-Turn does less damage it still is the superior move since momentum plays such a big part in the outcome of a battle. Plus Bug isn't a very good offensive type so Scizor can't make full use of the extra power as most swithc-ins will resist it.
I'm a little bit concerned about the Super Fang tutor... Crobat can be very dangerous just by the fact that now he can just boom, and there goes half of a wall, then Roost/U-turn out... Basically any wall without some form of non-Rest recovery is not in danger of being Super Fang'ed.
On the other hand, Nasty Plot Mismagius will most likely be the new Gengar. With the speed only 5 off, PlotMagius can be a nice wall-breaker with Nasty Plot, Hidden Power [Fighting], Shadow Ball and Thunderbolt. HP [Fighting] and Shadow Ball also covers all weaknesses, allow 1 move to hit at least neutral on all Pokemon that exists, since Normal/Ghost Pokemon doesn't exist.
Dragonite now also has ExtremeSpeed.
So, what about these two:
Crobat @ Black Sludge
Inner Focus | Jolly
EVs: 252 HP / 4 ATK / 252 SPE (or something really defensive. This is just a concept.)
- Super Fang
- Hypnosis
- U-Turn
- Roost?
and
Mismagius @ Life Orb
Levitate | Timid
EVs: 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 SPE
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
It's the new Gengar, far more powerful, and not weak to Azelf's Psychic.
On the other hand, Nasty Plot Mismagius will most likely be the new Gengar. With the speed only 5 off, PlotMagius can be a nice wall-breaker with Nasty Plot, Hidden Power [Fighting], Shadow Ball and Thunderbolt. HP [Fighting] and Shadow Ball also covers all weaknesses, allow 1 move to hit at least neutral on all Pokemon that exists, since Normal/Ghost Pokemon doesn't exist.
Dragonite now also has ExtremeSpeed.
So, what about these two:
Crobat @ Black Sludge
Inner Focus | Jolly
EVs: 252 HP / 4 ATK / 252 SPE (or something really defensive. This is just a concept.)
- Super Fang
- Hypnosis
- U-Turn
- Roost?
and
Mismagius @ Life Orb
Levitate | Timid
EVs: 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 SPE
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
It's the new Gengar, far more powerful, and not weak to Azelf's Psychic.
I agree.
On a SD scizor, Bug bite will be really awesome,
however, on something like Choice band,
It's just pure preference.
Anyone else thinking about the awesome combo of super fanging and then roaring/whirlwinding stuff and then have a sweeper with Brine to clean 'em up.
Well Sharpedo learns both Super Fang and Brine so you don't need Roar / Whirlwind. And he has pretty good stats as well.
perfect,no one from my team got anything useful,lucario and metagross got what? low kick and gravity? i might find some use for gravity,but little else,zapdos got sky atack! power herb time! anyway,i forgot to check,but machamp get anything useful at all? power trick if i am correct...but i dont want mine to be wall,infernape got little useful moves,counter to a extend,but azelf lead normaly use special moves and metagross is probaly going to think something to stop counter leads(hell,he need earth power!) floatzel,one of my favorite pokes,got no useful moves,the 2 moves got no use in battle,this is,i can try flinch hax with headbutt! bug bite on scizor if am right? the metagame is broken now,no way someone can counter him,bug bite get STAB boost and another boost from his little special ability,to tell the true,from both of his abilitys,but that is not the point,i so wanted entei to get something,but only headbutt,not even flare blitz or earthquake,does gamefreak hate entei that much? typhosion won little,but any new special move is good for his small,almost not existence special movepool,HELL YEA! staraptor also got sky atack,time to make fun of the anime! lets be serious,some pokemons got awesome moves,but others where left aside,even farferthch got something useful in the form of leaf blade,god dammit,i was really sad lucario got nothing really useful for his offensive movepool,well,i guess its already a good movepool anyway,i just wanted something for his special movepool....
I think Taunt would be better than Hypnosis on Crobat. It would make a pretty good anti-lead in OU then wouldn't it? Maybe give it a Focus Sash so it can Taunt Azelf and then U-Turn out.
For Mismagius, I think Substitute would be better than Thunderbolt. One of the reasons Nasty Plot Azelf isn't popular is because Scizor easily ends its sweep. Same thing goes for Mismagius and its pitiful physical defense. Substitute eases prediction and makes it easy to beat Blissey one on one.
This EV spread with Substitute would probably be better: 108 HP / 184 SpA / 216 Spe (with Timid). The HP Evs ensure Blissey can't break Mismagius' substitutes with Flamethrower/Ice Beam and the Speed EVs let Mismagius outspeed all positive base 100 speed Pokemon, which is basically as fast as it needs to be in OU.
I'd probably go Roost and remove Hypnosis due to accuracy issues.
NP Mismagius is good but not exactly better than Gengar. Those 5 points in speed is huge when you consider all of the pokemon that sit at that base speed. Missy also doesn't get Explosion or Focus Punch. Also, Gengar doesn't need to set up.
As for the set, I think it has potential with Magnezone support to deal with Scizor. HP Fighting would definatley be the better option to hit Ttar. I don't see T-bolt being as useful as the other moves so possibly slashing it in for Sub would work to scout for counters early game.
Dragonite should become quite a threat now with a CB set. A max attack CB Extremespeed has about the same damage output as Scizor's CB Bullet Punch. CB Outrage hits like a nuke and EQuake and Superpower or possibley Fire Blast would work well. He'd need spin support to be fully devastating though.
Gravity looks like it'll be a bitch. Hopefully, we don't get an item that boosts the turn to 8. Offensive gravity with Alakazam, Starmie, and Gengar would be pretty good. I think a defensive gravity might also be viable since Forrey, Blissey, and even p2 can use the move though fitting it in is the problem. Dugtrio usage should rise since he can trap everything under gravity, including Rotom-A, which is really good. Being able to trap Blissey and Latias is also nice, and might allow a Special based team with Alakazam, Porygon-Z, Starmie, and Gengar being the sweepers with Dugtrio in the wing, ready to kill Blissey, Latias, or Speciall defensive Ttars.
It seems Ubers will change a slight bit also. Palkia getting Hydro is pretty good and Gravity even enters that tier, with Mewtwo, Palkia, and Dialga being key users. Being able to use 100% accurate Hydo Pumps, Draco Meteors, Dark Voids, and Focus Blasts should be nice. Also, Quagsire getting Recover should make an impact and Ho-oh now has Brave Bird which keeps Kyogre at bay. Though, UU is clearly the tier that will experience the most changes.
(just as a heads up here, I think we're all over the initial excitement phase so one sentence posts like 'yay, missy got nasty plot, she will be OU now!' or 'quagsire is my favorite, im glad he got recover!' are no longer gonna fly in here. Try to make sure your posts serve a purpose)
I think there's a really interesting move that has received almost no attention...in fact, this is the addition that I am most excited about using.
When you think of Pokemon whose usage was killed by Scizor you'd probably think of Gengar or Heracross, but don't forget about Weavile...Scizor is to Weavile what Heatran is to Weezing...as close to a perfect counter as something can be. Weavile was 16th in usage in the month before Platinum's additions, but now he sits at 34 - that's a big drop.
Just like Electivire, one of Weavile's biggest flaws is the low BP of its attacks - more specifically its crucial coverage Fighting attack. When Platinum passed straight over Weavile's head I expressed my dissapointment here but it seems that HGSS has been a whole lot nicer to the little guy. In fact, the more I think about it the more I think that Low Kick is the best move Weavile could ever have asked for.
You might be thinking 'Low Kick isn't that much better than Brick Break, is it?' and you wouldn't be completely wrong but when you consider the targets that Weavile will be using it on you'll realise just how crucial this boost is. Here's a small taster:
339 Atk Life Orb Brick Break vs 4/0 Heatran = 58% - 69%
339 Atk Life Orb Low Kick vs 4/0 Heatran = 94% - 110%
This is just one example of many that demonstrate how the boost from Low Kick can turn forgettable 2HKOs into easy OHKOs.
The beautiful thing about Low Kick is that its primary targets will be Rock or Steel types - two types that are typically incredibly heavy. If you love Weavile as much as I do then you're probably already dashing off to the Low Kick page to see for yourself just how this move fares against common targets so I'll save you the hassle with a link - http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/low_kick
So here comes a catalogue of calculations. The two sets I'll be using for this purpose are of course:
Weavile @ Choice Band
Jolly
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Pursuit
- Ice Shard
- Low Kick
- Ice Punch / Night Slash
Weavile @ Life Orb
Jolly
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Ice Punch
- Night Slash
- Low Kick
(where necessary I'll be listing calculations that assume +2)
Notable targets who take 120BP from Low Kick (in order - Heatran, Hariyama, Mamoswine, Metagross, Snorlax, Registeel, Steelix, Tyranitar)
Notable targets who take 100BP from Low Kick (in order - Abomasnow, Forretress, Magnezone, Regice, Scizor)
Notable targets who take 80BP from Low Kick (in order - Empoleon)
So Low Kick is great for Weavile right? There's so many instances there where it OHKO's Pokemon that Brick Break simply couldn't and on a Pokemon as fragile and vulnerable to status as Weavile, this is crucial.
But of course, now you're probably thinking 'what about the Pokemon who take less than 80BP? Will I miss Brick Break?' In another lucky twist of fate, light Pokemon generally have low Defences so are easily dealt with regardless...examples include Blissey, Houndoom and PorygonZ. From a scan of the list, I'd say the only instances where you'd probably miss Brick Break are against Clefable, Crawdaunt, Glaceon, Kabutops, Lopunny, Omastar, Porygon2, Umbreon and Relicanth but the majority of those Pokemon are UU and none of them particularly enjoy taking Weavile's STAB Attacks.
In conclusion, I don't think this is going to cause an astronomic rise in Weavile usage but I think that the few players who do use Weavile will notice an improvement in their Weavile's performance and kill-per-match ratio. I'm really looking forward to building a team around Swords Dance Weavile...should be practical with a little bit of Magnezone support.
EDIT:
Another thought that just came to me based on this Low Kick Weavile hype, is the viability of Swords Dance Sneasel in UU. It should be noted that I have minimal experience in the current UU so I'm basing this mostly on theorymon but it would appear that Sneasel's move coverage is very 'anti-physical wall' in UU. Low Kick deals with the Steel types like Steelix and Registeel, Bite downs Slowbro and Ice Punch downs bulky Grounds and Grasses like Donphan and Tangrowth respectively. If you can get past the NFE tag, Sneasel has very respectable offensive stats - 95 Atk and 115 Spe aren't bad by any standards. It might take a bit of work to get the SD off, but I can imagine it being quite dangerous if you did considering how fast it is and how well it deals with physical walls. It also has the tiny advantage over Weavile in that he has Inner Focus over Pressure to help him against Ambipom (who he speed ties with).
I think there's a really interesting move that has received almost no attention...in fact, this is the addition that I am most excited about using.
When you think of Pokemon whose usage was killed by Scizor you'd probably think of Gengar or Heracross, but don't forget about Weavile...Scizor is to Weavile what Heatran is to Weezing...as close to a perfect counter as something can be. Weavile was 16th in usage in the month before Platinum's additions, but now he sits at 34 - that's a big drop.
Just like Electivire, one of Weavile's biggest flaws is the low BP of its attacks - more specifically its crucial coverage Fighting attack. When Platinum passed straight over Weavile's head I expressed my dissapointment here but it seems that HGSS has been a whole lot nicer to the little guy. In fact, the more I think about it the more I think that Low Kick is the best move Weavile could ever have asked for.
You might be thinking 'Low Kick isn't that much better than Brick Break, is it?' and you wouldn't be completely wrong but when you consider the targets that Weavile will be using it on you'll realise just how crucial this boost is. Here's a small taster:
339 Atk Life Orb Brick Break vs 4/0 Heatran = 58% - 69%
339 Atk Life Orb Low Kick vs 4/0 Heatran = 94% - 110%
This is just one example of many that demonstrate how the boost from Low Kick can turn forgettable 2HKOs into easy OHKOs.
The beautiful thing about Low Kick is that its primary targets will be Rock or Steel types - two types that are typically incredibly heavy. If you love Weavile as much as I do then you're probably already dashing off to the Low Kick page to see for yourself just how this move fares against common targets so I'll save you the hassle with a link - http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/low_kick
So here comes a catalogue of calculations. The two sets I'll be using for this purpose are of course:
Weavile @ Choice Band
Jolly
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Pursuit
- Ice Shard
- Low Kick
- Ice Punch / Night Slash
Weavile @ Life Orb
Jolly
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Ice Punch
- Night Slash
- Low Kick
(where necessary I'll be listing calculations that assume +2)
Notable targets who take 120BP from Low Kick (in order - Heatran, Hariyama, Mamoswine, Metagross, Snorlax, Registeel, Steelix, Tyranitar)
Code:
339 Atk Choice Band Brick Break vs 4/0 Heatran = 67% - 80%
339 Atk Choice Band Low Kick vs 4/0 Heatran = 108% - 128%
339 Atk Life Orb Brick Break vs 4/0 Heatran = 58% - 69%
339 Atk Life Orb Low Kick vs 4/0 Heatran = 94% - 110%
339 Atk Choice Band Brick Break vs 252/0 Heatran = 57% - 67%
339 Atk Choice Band Low Kick vs 252/0 Heatran = 91% - 107%
339 Atk Life Orb Brick Break vs 252/0 Heatran = 49% - 59%
339 Atk Life Orb Low Kick vs 252/0 Heatran = 79% - 93% (41% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
Notes - It should be noted here that Weavile is capable of outrunning a Modest/Rash Heatran @ Choice Scarf who maxes at 379. Reason enough to run max speed imo, but the standard set runs 40 HP EVs as it allowes guaranteed survival against Azelf's Flamethrower and Modest Choice Specs Starmie. Your choice.
339 Atk Choice Band Brick Break vs 80/252+ Hariyama = 25% - 30%
339 Atk Choice Band Brick Break vs 80/252+ Hariyama = 40% - 47%
678 Atk (+2) Life Orb Brick Break vs 80/252+ Hariyama = 43% - 51%
678 Atk (+2) Life Orb Low Kick vs 80/252+ Hariyama = 70% - 82%
Notes: Many consider Hariyama to be a perfect Weavile counter thanks to his typing, stats and ability but Low Kick puts paid to that belief.
339 Atk Choice Band Brick Break vs 0/4 Mamoswine = 77% - 90% (20% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
339 Atk Choice Band Low Kick vs 0/4 Mamoswine = 122% - 144%
339 Atk Life Orb Brick Break vs 0/4 Mamoswine = 67% - 79%
339 Atk Life Orb Low Kick vs 0/4 Mamoswine = 106% - 125%
339 Atk Choice Band Night Slash vs 252/12 Metagross = 34% - 41%
339 Atk Choice Band Low Kick vs 252/12 Metagross = 40% - 47%
678 Atk (+2) Life Orb Night Slash vs 252/12 Metagross = 60% - 71%
678 Atk (+2) Life Orb Low Kick vs 252/12 Metagross = 69% - 81%
678 Atk (+2) Low Kick vs 4/0 Metagross = 84% - 99% (33% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
Notes: Night Slash is listed over Brick Break as Night Slash was previously Weavile's best attack against the part Psychic Metagross. That is also the reason Bronzong won't feature on this list (he takes 100BP from Low Kick). The last calculation may seem a little optimistic of me but Dougs stats show that last month 26% of Metagross invested no Def EVs (I assume they're Scarfed or full speed Agility variants).
339 Atk Choice Band Brick Break vs 168/120 Snorlax = 55% - 65%
339 Atk Choice Band Low Kick vs 168/120 Snorlax = 88% - 104% (guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock)
339 Atk Life Orb Brick Break vs 168/120 Snorlax = 48% - 56%
339 Atk Life Orb Low Kick vs 168/120 Snorlax = 76% - 90% (20% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
Notes: Spread used is Curselax variant which is the most physically defensive Snorlax set listed in the analysis.
339 Atk Choice Band Brick Break vs 252/88+ Registeel = 38% - 45%
339 Atk Choice Band Low Kick vs 252/88+ Registeel = 61% - 72%
678 Atk (+ 2) Life Orb Low Kick vs 252/88+ = 105% - 124%
Notes: Spread used is 'OU tank' - the most physically defensive spread in the analysis.
339 Atk Choice Band Brick Break vs 252/0+ Steelix = 32 - 38%
339 Atk Choice Band Low Kick vs 252/0+ Steelix = 51% - 61%
678 (+2) Life Orb Low Kick vs 252/0+ Steelix = 89% - 105% (53% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
339 Atk Life Orb Brick Break vs 252/0 Tyranitar = 92% - 108%
339 Life Orb Low Kick vs 252/0 Tyranitar = 146% - 173%
Notes: Somewhat surprisingly LO Brick Break isn't guaranteed to OHKO 252/0 Tyranitar and as bonus calculation - without a boosting item, Brick Break will never OHKO 4/0 Tyranitar (it maxes at 99%).
Code:
339 Atk Choice Band Brick Break vs 252/0 Abomasnow = 76% - 90%
339 Atk Choice Band Low Kick vs 252/0 Abomasnow = 102% - 120%
339 Atk Life Orb Brick Break vs 252/0 Abomasnow = 66% - 78%
339 Atk Life Orb Low Kick vs 252/0 Abomasnow = 88% - 104%
678 (+2) Life Orb Brick Break vs 252/144+ Forretress = 34% - 40%
678 (+2) Life Orb Low Kick vs 252/144+ Forretress = 46% - 54% (97% chance to 2HKO after SR + Leftovers)
339 Atk Choice Band Brick Break vs 172/0 Magnezone = 63% - 75%
339 Atk Choice Band Low Kick vs 172/0 Magnezone = 84% - 100% (41% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
339 Atk Life Orb Brick Break vs 4/0 Magnezone = 63% - 75%
339 Atk Life Orb Low Kick vs 4/0 Magnezone = 84% - 100% (33% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
Notes: I didn't make a mistake here lol - the 172 HP Magnezone takes the CB attacks almost exactly the same as the 4/0 Magnezone takes the LO attacks.
339 Atk Choice Band Brick Break vs 252/252 Regice = 50% - 59%
339 Atk Choice Band Low Kick vs 252/252 Regice = 67% - 79% (28% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
339 Atk Choice Band Brick Break vs 248/0 Scizor = 33% - 39%
339 Atk Choice Band Low Kick vs 248/0 Scizor = 44% - 53% (guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock)
678 (+1) Life Orb Low Kick vs 248/0 Scizor = 77% - 91% (28% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
Notes: Low Kick does make a very noteworthy difference here as now Scizor can only switch into Weavile once. The Swords Danced calculation is nice but it's rare you'll be able to catch Scizor with a +2 Low Kick due to Bullet Punch. Maybe someday though!
Code:
339 Atk Choice Band Brick vs 12/12 Empoleon = 81% - 96% (15% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
339 Atk Choice Band Low Kick vs 12/12 Empoleon = 87% - 106% (53% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, 15% to do so without)
Notes: Even though the difference in BP here is minimal, this is a perfect example of the difference Low Kick makes to Weavile.But of course, now you're probably thinking 'what about the Pokemon who take less than 80BP? Will I miss Brick Break?' In another lucky twist of fate, light Pokemon generally have low Defences so are easily dealt with regardless...examples include Blissey, Houndoom and PorygonZ. From a scan of the list, I'd say the only instances where you'd probably miss Brick Break are against Clefable, Crawdaunt, Glaceon, Kabutops, Lopunny, Omastar, Porygon2, Umbreon and Relicanth but the majority of those Pokemon are UU and none of them particularly enjoy taking Weavile's STAB Attacks.
In conclusion, I don't think this is going to cause an astronomic rise in Weavile usage but I think that the few players who do use Weavile will notice an improvement in their Weavile's performance and kill-per-match ratio. I'm really looking forward to building a team around Swords Dance Weavile...should be practical with a little bit of Magnezone support.
EDIT:
Another thought that just came to me based on this Low Kick Weavile hype, is the viability of Swords Dance Sneasel in UU. It should be noted that I have minimal experience in the current UU so I'm basing this mostly on theorymon but it would appear that Sneasel's move coverage is very 'anti-physical wall' in UU. Low Kick deals with the Steel types like Steelix and Registeel, Bite downs Slowbro and Ice Punch downs bulky Grounds and Grasses like Donphan and Tangrowth respectively. If you can get past the NFE tag, Sneasel has very respectable offensive stats - 95 Atk and 115 Spe aren't bad by any standards. It might take a bit of work to get the SD off, but I can imagine it being quite dangerous if you did considering how fast it is and how well it deals with physical walls. It also has the tiny advantage over Weavile in that he has Inner Focus over Pressure to help him against Ambipom (who he speed ties with).
@ Lee - the problem with Sneasel in UU is that 95 base Attack is a huge drop from Weavile's base 120, much bigger than the difference in the overall defensive potential between OU and UU walls. Even with Low Kick it is not guaranteeing any KOs on the beefy physical walls like Regirock and Steelix, and even fails to KO Tangrowth and Donphan with Ice Punch at +2. Plus Milotic is a full stop to it as well, as it has nothing of any real power than can hit it effectively.
In a nutshell: too weak, even with the addition of Low Kick. Might be good for Weavile though, like you said.
In a nutshell: too weak, even with the addition of Low Kick. Might be good for Weavile though, like you said.
Crobat @ Black Sludge
Inner Focus | Timid
EVs: 252 SPATK / 252 SPE
- Super Fang
- Hypnosis
- Taunt
- Air Slash / Heat Wave
That's my lead, sadly the rest of my team doesn't change much. (Personally I find SpA on crobat superior, especially with the introduction of super fang - heat wave counters leads like abomasnow/forretress and counter switch ins like metagross/scizor/bronzong, while super fang counters SPA walls)
Personally I find the news of Super Fang becoming abundant rather bad. It just makes wall types that much less useful - as it is they've been struggling against all the power ups to offensive types. I'm also sad there aren't any new baton passers. I hate having to rely on Smeargle for baton pass ingrain.
As for the new DD recipients...
Crawdaunt @Life Orb
Hypercutter (anti Gyrados) or Shell Armor
252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Hp
Dragon Dance
Crabhammer
Night Slash
Superpower / X-Scissor / Taunt
I could definitely see this pokemon being very dangerous, perhaps OU material. His speed is a little troublesome though, perhaps requiring two dragon dances.
Wishcash with Dragon Dance will be... weird.
Wishcash @ Life Orb or Leftovers
Anticipation
252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Hp
Dragon Dance
Aqua Tail / Waterfall
Zen Headbutt
Earthquake
Wishcash has good base HP and passable defenses with enough speed and attack to require 2 dragon dances to outspeed some sweepers. Its attack isn't that incredible though, so it would require perhaps 3 DDs to truly be able to sweep (speed wise it would be fine at 2 but its attack is sketchy).
I could definitely see him getting some use in a sandstorm team now, though I don't know if he would be OU or not. UU material now definitely.
Inner Focus | Timid
EVs: 252 SPATK / 252 SPE
- Super Fang
- Hypnosis
- Taunt
- Air Slash / Heat Wave
That's my lead, sadly the rest of my team doesn't change much. (Personally I find SpA on crobat superior, especially with the introduction of super fang - heat wave counters leads like abomasnow/forretress and counter switch ins like metagross/scizor/bronzong, while super fang counters SPA walls)
Personally I find the news of Super Fang becoming abundant rather bad. It just makes wall types that much less useful - as it is they've been struggling against all the power ups to offensive types. I'm also sad there aren't any new baton passers. I hate having to rely on Smeargle for baton pass ingrain.
As for the new DD recipients...
Crawdaunt @Life Orb
Hypercutter (anti Gyrados) or Shell Armor
252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Hp
Dragon Dance
Crabhammer
Night Slash
Superpower / X-Scissor / Taunt
I could definitely see this pokemon being very dangerous, perhaps OU material. His speed is a little troublesome though, perhaps requiring two dragon dances.
Wishcash with Dragon Dance will be... weird.
Wishcash @ Life Orb or Leftovers
Anticipation
252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Hp
Dragon Dance
Aqua Tail / Waterfall
Zen Headbutt
Earthquake
Wishcash has good base HP and passable defenses with enough speed and attack to require 2 dragon dances to outspeed some sweepers. Its attack isn't that incredible though, so it would require perhaps 3 DDs to truly be able to sweep (speed wise it would be fine at 2 but its attack is sketchy).
I could definitely see him getting some use in a sandstorm team now, though I don't know if he would be OU or not. UU material now definitely.
Yeah, Low Kick for Weavile should increase his usage. His ability to revenge kill threats like Salamence, Latias, Gengar, etc. should be reasons enough to use him, and now being able to 2HKO Scizor with CB Low Kick makes him less of a hindrance for teams that rely on resistances.
Now Rotom-A can beat Blissey without the aid of Substitute + Charge Beam, which is incredibly useful for more defensive teams that need a solid pokemon to beat Blissey with.
Now, with one turn of set up, Mismagius deals 84.90%-99.75% to Careful 252 / 216 Tyranitar, assuming Timid with max special attack and Life Orb. A good chance of OHKOing with Stealth Rock support. With Magnezone support, Scizor isn't really a fear since it won't U-turn / Superpower a resistance, being threatened by a OHKO from Thunderbolt anyways(81.33%-95.62%, good chance of OHKOing with Stealth Rock up). Salamence gets OHKOed even without Stealth Rock, but given the presence of pokemon like Blissey, Gengar, and Latias, I don't see the set being used enough for it to be a huge threat. What is a huge threat, however, is that the CM set and Nasty Plot have drastically different checks/counters, improving the unpredictability of Mismagius.
Extremespeed Dragonite should be fun. I posted an anti-lead set earlier, with Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Extremespeed, and HP Grass, that in theory is sound, but the CB set also gets a huge boost. Dragonite gets perfect coverage with Outrage + Superpower/Focus Punch, with Fire Punch/ThunderPunch 2HKOing Skarmory and bulky waters. His last slot is opened up for Extremespeed or Aqua Tail. With Outrage and Superpower 1-2HKOing most Aqua Tail targets, there is more reason to use Extremespeed. It doesn't have U-Turn like Scizor, but Dragonite deals similar damage to Salamence, dealing 53.47%-63.14% to 0/0 Salamence. It deals almost identical damage to Latias. Although these aren't notable OHKOs, they are enough to put an end to a sweep, which some teams fearing Magnezone may not want to risk losing their Scizor.
Now Rotom-A can beat Blissey without the aid of Substitute + Charge Beam, which is incredibly useful for more defensive teams that need a solid pokemon to beat Blissey with.
Now, with one turn of set up, Mismagius deals 84.90%-99.75% to Careful 252 / 216 Tyranitar, assuming Timid with max special attack and Life Orb. A good chance of OHKOing with Stealth Rock support. With Magnezone support, Scizor isn't really a fear since it won't U-turn / Superpower a resistance, being threatened by a OHKO from Thunderbolt anyways(81.33%-95.62%, good chance of OHKOing with Stealth Rock up). Salamence gets OHKOed even without Stealth Rock, but given the presence of pokemon like Blissey, Gengar, and Latias, I don't see the set being used enough for it to be a huge threat. What is a huge threat, however, is that the CM set and Nasty Plot have drastically different checks/counters, improving the unpredictability of Mismagius.
Extremespeed Dragonite should be fun. I posted an anti-lead set earlier, with Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Extremespeed, and HP Grass, that in theory is sound, but the CB set also gets a huge boost. Dragonite gets perfect coverage with Outrage + Superpower/Focus Punch, with Fire Punch/ThunderPunch 2HKOing Skarmory and bulky waters. His last slot is opened up for Extremespeed or Aqua Tail. With Outrage and Superpower 1-2HKOing most Aqua Tail targets, there is more reason to use Extremespeed. It doesn't have U-Turn like Scizor, but Dragonite deals similar damage to Salamence, dealing 53.47%-63.14% to 0/0 Salamence. It deals almost identical damage to Latias. Although these aren't notable OHKOs, they are enough to put an end to a sweep, which some teams fearing Magnezone may not want to risk losing their Scizor.
I can see an anti-lead working, possibly with Lefties, and maybe a Yache Berry to take on those Ice Beams and whatnot.
As far as a sweeper goes, we could look at a nice set along the lines of this.
Dragonite@ Life Orb
Inner Focus
Adamant
252 HP/252 Atk/4 Spe
~Dragon Dance
~Extremspeed
~Dragon Claw
~Superpower/Focus Punch
Looks allright. Its bulky enough and it acts similar to SD Rayquaza.
I don't know about this. Pain Split isn't the most reliable option, where you could end up loosing health instead of gaining it. Rest is more set in stone, but of course there is the drawback of being asleep, allowing something like SD Luc or DD Mence to come in set up easily. Unless your running Sleep Talk, of course.
As far as Dragon Dance Crawdaunt, it is simply outclassed by its sturdier Dancer, Gyarados.
Gyara has better stats overall.
95 Base HP
125 Atk
79 Def
60 SpA (not that anyone uses this)
100 SpD
81 Spe
Crawdaunt, however, has lower stats.
63 Base HP
120 Atk
85 Def
90 SpA
55 SpD
55 Spe
Although it makes a decent mixed sweeper, and has access to Swords Dance, which Gyarados doesn't have, it can't make much use of a Swords Dance set because it does not have a good movepool, and it does not have any priority options to work with. Gyarados also has a much larger speed stat. I beleive all base 90's can outrun him after a Dragon Dance, I think Jolly Heracross can to.
Low Kick on Weavile is a huge addition to it's movepool, by the look of those calculations Lee did, it looks like its going to cause some havoc.
Hang on, what? This is true in OU, but when did anyone ever say using a DD Crawdaunt anywhere other than the lower tiers was a good idea?
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