Pokémon Let's Go! - Pikachu and Eevee

See, I can't really buy the argument that Gamefreak is trying to market their games more towards younger audiences when they've marketed features that are targeted SPECIFICALLY at older fans, like Red and Blue being in S&M, move tutors in USUM, and Hyper Training in S&M. Most younger players should barely care about these features, yet gamefreak still chooses to market these features, because they do have a sizeable adult playerbase that plays the games competitively. Additionally, If they cared about their younger playerbase more than their older playerbase, there would have been no reason to raise the difficulty of S&M and USUM compared to XY and ORAS.

I don't think the flaw is that gamefreak is trying to appeal more towards a younger audience; its that they are trying to appeal to EVERYONE. Pokemon is an entity with a wide range of different people who enjoy the game. There are people who love the main Pokemon games, there are people who care solely about the competitive aspect of the main games. There are people who love the Pokemon anime, and there are people who only love Pokemon GO. I feel this game is trying to bring together all these audiences, which is admirable, but causes the game to lose focus as a result.

Regardless, I still am very excited for these games. Having played FRLG recently, I can safetly say that Kanto is probably the most underwhelming region by far for me due to its imbalanced and inconsistent level curve, very bland and one note characters who don't have any real backstory, nor development (save for a handful of exceptions which are still very bare bones compared to some of the characters we have in recent Pokemon games), and lack of modern advancements such as the physical/special split. With these remakes, I am very hopeful that gamefreak will improve on these aspects, specifically in the characterization of the games characters.
 
Don't get me wrong, I am also thinking that PLGO itself could probably be a great game (if it wasnt overpriced I suppose).
I don't think the flaw is that gamefreak is trying to appeal more towards a younger audience; its that they are trying to appeal to EVERYONE. Pokemon is an entity with a wide range of different people who enjoy the game. There are people who love the main Pokemon games, there are people who care solely about the competitive aspect of the main games. There are people who love the Pokemon anime, and there are people who only love Pokemon GO. I feel this game is trying to bring together all these audiences, which is admirable, but causes the game to lose focus as a result.
The issue pointed isnt that they do not "cather" older people. They wouldnt be keeping up complicate battle mechanics or all the whole "kanto panderin" if it wasnt so.

The issue pointed is that the way they are doing their advertising and releases shows that they almost feel ashamed of the fact that there's so many players outside of the "originally intended" playerbase which was essentially kids.
(note: before saying that "gen1/2 games were much harder compared to now", remember the year they were released, and what was the average difficulty level of GameBoy games)
The way their advertising is done leaves this bad taste of "yeh, we're making stuff that makes older fans happy, but just because we *have* to or we'll lose money, and we really rather just have only youngs since it'd make stuff easier". If you pay close attention to basically every of the last 2 years conferences or Directs, they never mention the adult players directly, they always are occasionally referred to as "everyone". There's never a direct mention of the competitive playerbase even though those are arguably some of the most loyal players either and actually important battle mechanics are rarely if ever mentioned.

I point again to how I closed my first post: Imagine how differently PLGO would have been received if they istantly mentioned that they're at work on polishing the actual gen 8 games while meanwhile they start this (potentially?) new series of games intended to target younger and new players.
 

I saw this video in my YouTube subscriptions from a guy I like to watch on YouTube and felt it was quite interesting. He brings up the fact that Let's Go could be just a ground to experiment with new features they may add to the series later. (He brings up that X and Y felt too unfinished, and yeah a lot of features that would be brought to the forefront in Sun and Moon did have a precursor in X/Y (notably PokeRides, which seem to be a series staple at this point)) He compares the backlash Let's Go gets to the backlash that Metroid Prime: Federation Force got, and how the latter game did deserve its backlash far more since Metroid has far less games and we haven't seen a Metroid game for a few years prior to Federation Force's announcement. (And yeah I do agree some of that backlash went too far (like with the 'cancel this game' petitions))

I think he should've brought up abilities in Gen 3 and the removal of HMs in Gen 7 though, which did shake up at least one aspect of the games. (the battling and the overworld respectively)
A lot of good points made and I generally agree with what was said. That said, I do want to discuss one thing he mentioned which was left pretty ambiguous despite it being a "major" demand: changing battling mechanics.

Now he didn't say that directly, but with him saying he wants the series to grow and evolve while also saying Sun & Moon didn't keep his interest leads me to believe that's what was being hinted at. Because Sun & Moon was a MAJOR change up for the series, getting rid of Gyms and instead having the Island Challenge. Now you can argue the Trials had similar beats to the Gyms: complete a puzzle, battle a boss, get proof that you won. But that gets directly to my point: while the context and aesthetic changes, the mechanics don't. When you play a main series Pokemon game, you play one and you know what to do for the rest. So even if they completely change the game into something akin to Colosseum he (and many others) would probably still have the same complaint about the battling system.

And I have a bit of a problem with that, because if you change the battling system dramatically the games are no longer Pokemon (in my opinion). That's like removing Mario's ability to jump but he can now teleport or giving Link a gun instead of a sword (no, Crossbow Training doesn't count); yeah it's the same character but you've completely changed an important characteristic about them. Same with Pokemon in a way, the main series was built on turn-based battles. And it's not like they haven't experimented with the concept, each game brings new things to the table (and there's plenty more that can still be done) to spice up the battling without changing the base of it because that's what everything is built upon.

Like, okay, what major change can be done to the battling system that'll freshen it up but keep the games feeling like Pokemon?
Having a turn order bar where faster Pokemon can attack more often? No, that's going too far, it'll make fast Pokemon overpowered and slow Pokemon about unusable unless they're a wall.
Able to position your Pokemon? Well, first off, what kind of positioning mechanic? There's the simple back row/front row or the grid field (and that varies how big it is). And exactly how will the positioning effect the battle, Moves, Items, and Abilities? No, this feels like it's adding a ton of extra unneeded things which might work better in a spin off like Mystery Dungeon or Conquest but no the main series where you can battle other people.
Quick time events for certain moves to have them do extra damage/Critical Hit/be more accurate/higher chance of doing an effect? That might be able to work but it comes with it's own can of worms like what are the quick time events, how do you decide which move gets what benefit, and can this be turned off without having an adverse effect on the experience. Also there's the issue of it making battles a little longer or people being good at certain kind of quick time events than others giving them a physical advantage there's no way to balance.

To wrap up my thoughts here, people who says they want the battle system to change have no idea what they're talking about or want to change Pokemon into a game style they like even if it goes against the overall feeling. With Pokemon the issue is more the story & setting and that, at least until Gen VII, they didn't try making boss battles feel different from normal battles. While I'd like to see Gyms back, I agree they could use an overhaul to make them more interesting battles (as well as battles with the rest of the Pokemon League and main villains, though rivals probably should be kept straight battles). Also, instead of a villain team, how about about another antagonistic force to go up against like having to help form a truce between two conflicting groups or preventing an impending disaster.

EARLY LEAKED RUMOR TRUE?:
So I came across an image of this 4Chan post from this thread:

Now if it was the image alone I wouldn't believe it was real, but being its from a thread that was made before the announcement it has peaked my interest. And indeed, a lot of what it says was true. Let's Go are Yellow remakes, there's a Pikachu and Eevee version, following Pokemon have returned, it's integrated with Pokemon GO, catching works like Pokemon GO, connecting the two gives rewards, and there's a new accessory that works with Let's Go and GO (the Poke Ball).

But, of course, there were things on this "leak" which wasn't revealed:

Red & Blue Play A Role: Most notable being this. If Red and Blue are in the game, then what does that mean for the story? Because it looks like we were going through the same story beats, but if Red and Blue are characters than could it be that we're having side story adventure alongside the Gen I story? That would be a REALLY interesting twist and bring up a ton of new possibilities like having us explore Kanto via a different path. It would also forgive Trace being the rival as he's not replacing Blue but you and him just so happen to be two other trainers that Oak asked to help him. And depending how they play things out, they could have you either arriving some places earlier than or after Red which could change things up. I'm mainly thinking what this means for the 8th Gym, if we arrive early than we can battle Giovanni but will he not have his breakdown against us? Or, more interesting, we arrive to the 8th Gym after Red had his battle, what's going to happen then? Who would we battle to get our 8th Badge? Would be neat if they brought in the Executives and had them be our "Giovanni" in the game. Or maybe reveal this is how Blue became the 8th Gym Leader (though that would be a quick transition). And what about the Champion? Would we be facing Red?

HMs Still Replaced By Poke Rides: Now this is interesting as either they're going to have to change certain obstacles or introduce completely new Poke Rides. Now, before you say anything, yes, they'll obviously need to change a few Pokemon anyway. But would it be a 1:1 changes (like a Arcanine instead of a Stoutland, Rhyhorn instead of a Mudsdale, and Starmie instead Sharpedo and that's it) thus meaning changes to obstacles like trees you need to Cut. Or would they give us Poke Rides that directly relate to the five HMs for Gen I: Cut, Fly, Surf, Strength, & Flash. If so, we'd need two new ones for Cut and Flash (Scyther and Magneton?). I'm going to guess it's going to be the former than the latter, though would be cool to see both done.

Online Has A Hub For Players: Not sure what this means. A hub like XY's PSS or Gen VII's Festival Plaza? Something more complicated like an online version of Platinum's Wi-Fi Plaza? Like, I feel this is an obvious inclusion, the question is more what type of hub would it be like.

I'll respond to the current conversations later.
 

Codraroll

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The issue pointed isnt that they do not "cather" older people. They wouldnt be keeping up complicate battle mechanics or all the whole "kanto panderin" if it wasnt so.

The issue pointed is that the way they are doing their advertising and releases shows that they almost feel ashamed of the fact that there's so many players outside of the "originally intended" playerbase which was essentially kids.
(note: before saying that "gen1/2 games were much harder compared to now", remember the year they were released, and what was the average difficulty level of GameBoy games)
The way their advertising is done leaves this bad taste of "yeh, we're making stuff that makes older fans happy, but just because we *have* to or we'll lose money, and we really rather just have only youngs since it'd make stuff easier". If you pay close attention to basically every of the last 2 years conferences or Directs, they never mention the adult players directly, they always are occasionally referred to as "everyone". There's never a direct mention of the competitive playerbase even though those are arguably some of the most loyal players either and actually important battle mechanics are rarely if ever mentioned.
Agreed. It comes off as if the target demographic of the games are people who were six years old in 1998 and enjoyed RBY, and who are STILL six years old, and who have never played a Pokémon game before. They appear to be trying to not only make the lightning strike again, but to make the SAME lightning strike again. "It worked so well with RBY, so if we do it the exact same way it will give us the exact same success over again! By the way, longtime Pokémon fan with nostalgic feelings for the Kanto adventure, last featured in a game released in 2004, you need a Grass- or Water-type Pokémon to fight Brock!".
 
The issue pointed is that the way they are doing their advertising and releases shows that they almost feel ashamed of the fact that there's so many players outside of the "originally intended" playerbase which was essentially kids.
Everyone hates the otaku

Pokemon should cater to kids, cater to the same people over and over again and once that audience hits 50 or so you end up like Star Trek, in the Popeye zone, forgotten but for the occasional reboot
The problem I see with Let's Go is that it doesn's seem designed to appeal to kids, it seems designed to appeal to adults; like the obvious nostalgia fest aside the whole "casualization" features seem to appeal more to people that don't have the time to play videogames (i.e. people who work) than to kids
I mean last time I checked Minecraft was a crafting sandbox game and Bendy and the Ink Machine was a puzzle survival game, neither exactly "casual" genres


As for the "Pokemon should try something different" argument
did the rogue-like, puzzle, action-adventure, fighting or action RPG Pokemon games sell as much as the traditional turn based RPG?

no?

ok bye~

Did they sell as much as the turn based?
did any of them do?


We Gamefreak have tried since long ago and sell pokemon in other genreeeees
we have tried with many genres, many where good
yet the paired games still sold mooooooore


Did they sell as much as the turn based?
it doesn't have to be just turn based


"no they didn't"

ok bye~

Did they sell as much as the turn based?
or even close to what they do?


I doesn't matter if is on nintendo systems, we can release them in mobiles as well
all those games did Ok, sales where so-so, except for Pokemon Goooo


[insert dramatic scene of Gamefreak's other games dying on a sea strom selling poorly]

We know that this franchise can do much better than an AR game
that people where only really into for a few months and thought a faaad
we only have so many genres that we can try
what are we gonna dooooo?


Did they sell as much as the turn based?
 
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Pokemon's Demographic:
So the major topic at hand, what does GF think of its adult playerbase and who do they try to appeal to. Well, I think the problem here is that GF is stuck in a paradox. They're trying to be more appealing to children... YET they do so much Gen I nostalgia pandering which only the adult players would care about. And the reason for this is because they've always made money so they may assume this is the way to go. It won't be until a main release game is a major flop would they think about changing course, but by then it may be too late.

But I don't think this is the major problem, but rather the outcome of the major problem: that GF is run by a batch of easily bored kids. GF is always wanting to do something cool and new and do so by completely getting rid of or downplaying the "cool and new" thing they introduced last generation. I would say it started around Gen V, them making regions based outside of Japan probably gave them the excuse to ditch old features and introduce new ones. Gen III and IV had Pokemon Contests and a Battle Frontier, but after IV they probably felt they did all they could with them so ditched it for Pokemon Musicals with B2W2 then later having PokeStar Studios and the World Tournament. Going to Gen VI they didn't want to bring over Musicals and PokeStar Studios to instead focus on Mega Evolutions; ORAS then cementing them no longer wanting to do Battle Frontiers. However Mega Evolutions soon got boring so pushed them to the wayside in Gen VII so they could do Z-Moves (not to mention got rid of Triple, Rotation, and Horde Battles while pushing the SOS Battles and Battle Royal). And no doubt in Gen VIII they'll push down Z-Moves and toss SOS Battles & Battle Royal for some new toys and battling styles.

So how does this relate to the topic at hand? Well, who would it be easier to introduce new features to and wouldn't care they're getting rid of previous ones? Why, kids of course, as long as the new features keep their interest. And that's probably why they want to appeal to kids to more, kids are more willing to changes than long time fans. As for the older fans, well GF may be bored kids but they also love their earlier stuff, when Pokemon was at its highest popularity, so are more than happy to pander to it. If there's any "losers" to this it's probably fans who came into the series after Gen II, them really only having remakes to look forward too and even then who knows what changes done that generation may affect the experience of the remake.

Now, in my opinion, they shouldn't have to "choose" a demographic. A good game is something that can appeal to everyone, having features which attract players of all ages (though not all features need to be liked by all ages, there can be features targeted toward a certain demographic). Younger kids will likely gravitate toward the main game's story while older players would like some indepth post game stuff. Even when advertising the game they can make info aimed at certain demographics without splitting the fanbase. There's a balance that can be done here... the issue if GF is not really interested in balancing things out. They want to constantly be making new features and mechanics while able to discard older stuff without issue, which is a both good and bad thing. Good as it prevents the franchise from getting stale, and whenever they go back to an older feature (usually in remakes) enough time has passed and technology improved they can do something new with it. But it's also bad because it makes these new features feel shallow, and if the new features are something which are carried over like Mega Evolutions (and soon Z-Moves) it then starts to build up a sort of wall of entry. If a player wants to enter the meta scene they not only need to know about Natures, IVs, and EVs but now there's Mega Evos and Z-Moves to consider. It's not like a new item or new move which you can ignore if you want to, a team with a Mega and Z-Move is put at a major disadvantage. Yet they keep on introducing these new major battling mechanics, like next gen what if they introduce Super Abilities? That's now a Mega, Z-Move, and Super Ability you need to learn about. And going back to discarding features, if a new fan grew to like a certain feature that doesn't carry over it's going to disappoint them as GF tries pushing new features they may have no interest in onto them.

It's a complicated mess, something which GF doesn't really want to address as addressing it may mean limiting what they can do. I do fear we're going to face a disaster that's seriously hurt the franchise (if not kill it or force a reboot) if GF doesn't course correct and try turning that complication into a complexity instead (and there is a difference. Complication is bad, there's a lot of things going on and not all of it are gelling together. But complexity just means there is many things involved but they all blend and work together toward the same or equally shared goal(s)).
 

Theorymon

I see what you did there!
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This was from the Pokemon Go thread (in a response to my silly hoarding habits atm lol), but I'ma respond to it here since this thread is probably more suitable for it!

I personally wouldn't hoard anything with abilities. Let's Go afaik has no abilities and Niantic seems keen on keeping the battling simple in Go as well. I'd focus on metagame relevance (Golden Razz Berries / 4 fat Normals in the blobs, Snorlax, and Slaking) and raid Pokemon.
Blitzamirin has this been shown anywhere? I remember some people speculating based off of the picture that confirmed natures earlier in this thread, but I'm skeptical because that screen was literally just the "Pikachu wants to learn a new move" screen, and the fact that Natures were only really sneakily confirmed via color coded stats, so it makes me think that isn't the usual Pokemon status screen!

I'd love to know though, cuz I've been spaoridcally challenging people to hypothetical Let's Go metagames, so I wanna know if Items and Abilities are in/out asap lol
 
They want to constantly be making new features and mechanics while able to discard older stuff without issue, which is a both good and bad thing. Good as it prevents the franchise from getting stale, and whenever they go back to an older feature (usually in remakes) enough time has passed and technology improved they can do something new with it
This made me actually wonder...

Aside from story stuff like pokemon fashion contest or safari zone for example, has any *battle* ability been discarded yet in Pokemon History?
Aside from the IV/EV rework from gen 1/2 to 3, I can't think of any feature that actually got lost in the next gen(s).

Which was one of my main standing points back when we thought PLGO was "gen 8" that they'd never discard / rework any actual combat-related mechanic, since it seems to me it actually never happened before. Updated sure, think of special/phisical splits or moves changing type or abilities getting different effects (rip smogonbirb), but completely discarded?
 
Berserk Gene. Partial trapping (you could argue Iron Head Jirachi took the mantle lol).

"Updating" an old mechanic can fundamentally change what it means (such as crit rate being a function of base speed in gen1); sharing the same name doesn't matter.
 
Well, I did mention gen1/2 specifically due to the fact both were the very original ones AND tecnically they didn't have portability (you were not able to bring pokemon from gen 1/2 to 3 in any way before VC I believe?) so there was actually no actual data loss.

Plus I recall reading a few articles where the GF designers were mentioning how they were actually not initially expecting to ever have the necessity of "gen 3" because they weren't expecting the series to last more than GSC, and that the developement/release of Gen 3 games was a huge bet they took which payed off.

They did come up with simply "rerolling" stats when using VC as well as not allowing to move items to following games in order to not force item portability if they decided to remove a item in future.

With "mechanic removal" I was mostly referring to actual battle mechanics (IV, EV, abilities, Mega evolution to mention some). Fundamental change in how a move works (like partial trapping) definitely is impactful but doesn't actually "remove" the mechanic per se, just changed a part of how it works (still traps the enemy and damages over time, but still allows it to move in that case). Other things got altered in same fashion but the move/mechanic was still there in future games.

Moves themselves also never disappeared, even when the Pokemon lost it in the learnset (event moves, or TMs / Tutors not repeated in previous titles) the move is STILL in game and functional if the Pokemon is transferred.
Pokemon that had their abilities changed had the old ability swapped with the new as well (Gengar for example, or HA dogs/Zapdos)
 

Theorymon

I see what you did there!
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Just a heads up: Tomorrow, the Japan Expo in France starts, and it was announced last week that there would be daily Pokemon Let's Go presentation videos of sorts for the whole expo (so July 5th-8th).

It's unknown what Gamefreak plans on showing, so it could just be reguritated E3 info. If it means much though, the last time I remember Gamefreak showing a video at this expo, they revealed Honedge for XY. So let's be hopeful we get some interesting info!
 
Just a heads up: Tomorrow, the Japan Expo in France starts, and it was announced last week that there would be daily Pokemon Let's Go presentation videos of sorts for the whole expo (so July 5th-8th).

It's unknown what Gamefreak plans on showing, so it could just be reguritated E3 info. If it means much though, the last time I remember Gamefreak showing a video at this expo, they revealed Honedge for XY. So let's be hopeful we get some interesting info!
I hope they show us some Eevee gameplay, so we can see what its stats are.
 
A new trailer has just been released:

Pikachu version exclusives: Oddish, Sandshrew, Growlithe
Eevee version exclusives: Bellsprout, Vulpix, Meowth

Map of the Kanto region in PLG:


Female Eevee's tail has a heart pattern:


You can also change hairstyles of your Eevee/Pikachu:
 
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DHR-107

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Orange Islands

English version of the above. Can we just point out... Misty's Starmie uses fucking SCALD?!

Also map changes! As you all know I LOVE map changes and did some analysis on the other overworld maps we've gotten before.

Starting off there aren't too many HUGE changes to the map. A few of the towns have been slightly redesigned. To name a few: Fuschia; it seems like it is far easier to access the Pokemart now, Vermillion now has a cutting across it in front of the Pokemon Center, Cerulean has had its buildings moved around slightly (you may still need to pass through a mans house to leave to the east) and BEST OF ALL, Cinnabar Island has been granted its own Volcano! The only other minor changes I can see are an increase in length for Cycling Road (because let's be honest, it was always too short) and the more "grand" entrances to places like Mt Moon, Cerulean Cave and the Seafoam Islands.

This also brings me to my next minor disappointment, the amount of unused and empty space Kanto has. Maybe one day I will get a better Kanto, but today is not this day. I'm still on the fence about purchasing either one of these games.
 
So basically what we got today was:
- Another failed attempt to make Eevee look cute.
- Version differences, as expected.
- Misty still being the same difficulty spike she was in the original games. Now with Scald!
- More looks at updated Kanto.
 
Can we just point out... Misty's Starmie uses fucking SCALD?!
Hopefully they've done at least one of these improvements:
  • Nerf Scald's power to 60
  • Allow LGE players to get Oddish because Bulbasaur and Bellsprout have physical Grass STAB
  • Early access to Grass Knot TM, which has 80 BP against Starmie
Paras remains a good choice, though: it has Dry Skin and a 40 BP super-effective, STAB Fury Cutter which goes out of control if Starmie doesn't have good coverage options.

EDIT: Oddish confirmed to be exclusive to LGP, so LGE's only surefire option is Dry Skin Paras.
 
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If you look at the map, Bulbasaur, Charmander, and Squirtle are all drawn in the locations you obtain them in Yellow, so maybe we'll obtain them the same way in these games as gift Pokemon. (Or has this already been confirmed?) If that's the case, the Bulbasaur spotted in Viridian Forest was probably just left in from testing.
 
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