Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations

[Low-Key]

One of these learns Dual Wingbeat, and it's Clef. What's even stranger is that this makes sense, since Torn's base forms lacks wings and the two forms share a moveset, but it's still funny to think that Torn-T can't use those wings to slap something.

Well, Clefairy technically has wings, just check behind the sprite lmao. It's pretty funny how Torn-T doesn't even get it as well. Also,

Play Rough? Why does it get Play Rough? Dragalge's moveset has always been uniquely diverse which I love about it, but moves like Thunderbolt/Focus Blast/Shadow Ball sorta make sense while Play Rough really doesn't fit it thematically. Most mons with this move are either (A) cute or (B) in dire need of a physical Fairy move, but Dragalge is neither and seahorses/seadragons are weak swimmers with little musculature to speak of, that rely on drifting around in secrecy. Having one beat you up with its bony fins makes no sense.

I did check Dragalge's dex entries and none of them mention how this is possible.

...yeah, I have absolutely no clue why Dragalge gets Play Rough. I'm so confused.

 

[Bakugames]

I assume its something related to sea horse behaviour, dragon myth or they just thought Dragalge needed some filler moves that weren't going to alter its main concept too much

 

[Sonikku A]

Still, unless the translation team didn't know what Blastoise looked like or was related to Squirtle and Wartortle (both called Turtle Pokemon), I still don't get why they went with "shellfish".

They literally only had XMLs of the og script for ref on the first few gens. So visually checking the mon was unfortunately not possible
Then you have Gen 2 where localizations were intended for 1998 mons, but then GF delayed and drastically changed many, which caused issues. Like Sneasel no longer being a weasel...

 

[BoomFantastic]

I assume its something related to sea horse behaviour, dragon myth or they just thought Dragalge needed some filler moves that weren't going to alter its main concept too much

... Huh. Guess it's based on territorial disputes...

 

[R_N]

They literally only had XMLs of the og script for ref on the first few gens. So visually checking the mon was unfortunately not possible
Then you have Gen 2 where localizations were intended for 1998 mons, but then GF delayed and drastically changed many, which caused issues. Like Sneasel no longer being a weasel...

Considering Sneasel was more overtly a weasel up to some months prior to release that's probably not what happened and it was more: it's still meant to be a weasel just significantly more abstracted.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

So this may have been discussed in the last 100 pages but a quick cursory search didn't bring anything up...

Today, I'm kind of puzzled about Razor Wind. No, not who learns it or what it's meant to be. Just... the move itself. I'm kind of just baffled as to why it exists at all.

So, to explain, it's a 2-turn Flying move - oh, wait. It's Normal. Oh, that whole wind thing confused me. Ah, so it's one of those odd "should have been another type" Normal moves from Gen I that was retyped like Bite or Gust or Karate Chop or Sand-Attack? Oh, no, it's still Normal in Gen II onwards.

Hmmm. So the Japanese name comes from the concept of a mythical dust demon carried on the winds that would slice you with sharp claws and cut you to pieces. Interesting. Cool concept. Though kind of does still seem like a Flying concept? It's generally accepted that they weren't 100% about what Flying was in Gen I. Initially it appears that they equated Flying=avian creatures, before deciding to expand that to incorporate a broad concept of wind and air powers.

Anyway, back to the point. Okay, so Razor Wind is... a Normal move with awful accuracy and a significant drawback in the form of a charge turn with precisely no additional effects that would make using it worth it*, in a generation with a vast array of far, far superior Normal-type moves available via TM like Take Down, Mega Kick, Mega Punch, Double-Edge, Body Slam, Tri Attack... hell, even Skull Bash. And most Pokemon didn't even need the TMs - if you look at the movesets in RBGY, a large chunk of Pokemon learn almost nothing BUT Normal-type moves levelling up.

But here's the real odd thing. Hardly anything learns it. At least not naturally anyway. In Gen I, it's only accessible by TM. Fair enough, lots of things were back then. But then in Gen II, it's completely inaccessible unless you trade with Gen I. A couple of species learn it by breeding but you still have to have traded with Gen I for them to do so. Gen III gives it to two Pokemon (Nuzleaf and Absol) and each subsequent gen gave it to a couple more - usually Flying - Pokemon. It wasn't until Gen VI that it was really spread about and given to a large handful of new mons in that generation, again most of them Flying. Gen VII just gave it to Type:Null, which really is the perfect mon for it; it learns an absolutely random grab-bag of moves. Quite a lot of species do it by breeding admittedly, some which suit it (Spearow, Zangoose, Horsea, Gligar, Axew) and some whose connection is a little more opaque (Girafarig, Bulbasaur, Drampa) - though not, as someone did note earlier on, Sneasel, which would seem to be a perfect fit.

*What? I thought it had an increased critical-hit ratio? Nope. That's only in Gen II. Gen III inexplicably removed it (though at least fixing its godawful accuracy) and then Gen IV brought it back while making it a Special move - thereby making it even less valuable to Scyther, Absol, Gligar, and Zangoose than it was before.

If there was one move I'm glad Gen VIII euthanised, it's this one. I can't think of another move so thoroughly outclassed and disadvantageous.

 

[Siggu]

so Razor Wind is... a Normal move with awful accuracy and a significant drawback in the form of a charge turn with precisely no additional effects that would make using it worth it

Until you play Super Mystery Dungeon and you get destroyed by room-wide Razor Winds.

 

[Hugin]

Anyway, back to the point. Okay, so Razor Wind is... a Normal move with awful accuracy and a significant drawback in the form of a charge turn with precisely no additional effects that would make using it worth it*, in a generation with a vast array of far, far superior Normal-type moves available via TM like Take Down, Mega Kick, Mega Punch, Double-Edge, Body Slam, Tri Attack... hell, even Skull Bash. And most Pokemon didn't even need the TMs - if you look at the movesets in RBGY, a large chunk of Pokemon learn almost nothing BUT Normal-type moves levelling up.

So I checked. Almost everything that learns it gets no decent level-up normal-type moves. But nearly* everything that learns it also learns Swift, Hyper Beam, /and/ Take Down from TMs, and 2 of those are even infinite. All I can think is that since it's cheap and available early, it's intended as a bridge between Tackle and late-game normal moves like Take Down**. But given that only 3 of the 13 families that get it are normal-types, the necessity of such a bridge seems rather low.

*Farfetch'd doesn't get Hyper Beam and Kabutops doesn't get Swift, though they both get Slash by level up.
**Yes, it's strictly worse than using Tackle twice in Gen I. I'm assuming they didn't realize that turns are the most important resource back then.

 

[Pikachu315111]

I noticed something strange just now: Iron Head was introduced in Generation 4, but Skarmory was unable to be taught it until Generation 5. This looks like a pretty big oversight considering:



That head definitely looks like the kind of "steel-hard head" that the user slams into the target when using the move, doesn't it?

Skarmory dex entries hint that, despite the metal armor being hard, it's actually hollow and light (it weighs only 50kg/110 lbs). If you look at its moves, you'll realize that, naturally, it doesn't learn that many moves which involves tackling/slamming into the target. Instead, it rather uses its blade sharp wings as it doesn't need to be heavy to inflict a deep cut wound.

Play Rough? Why does it get Play Rough? Dragalge's moveset has always been uniquely diverse which I love about it, but moves like Thunderbolt/Focus Blast/Shadow Ball sorta make sense while Play Rough really doesn't fit it thematically. Most mons with this move are either (A) cute or (B) in dire need of a physical Fairy move, but Dragalge is neither and seahorses/seadragons are weak swimmers with little musculature to speak of, that rely on drifting around in secrecy. Having one beat you up with its bony fins makes no sense.

Let's also remember Play Rough's Japanese name is "Frolic". The definition of "frolicking" is "(of an animal or person) play and move about cheerfully, excitedly, or energetically". And if you ever watches a seahorse swim around, you could say they move around in a frolic-y way.

Hmmm. So the Japanese name comes from the concept of a mythical dust demon carried on the winds that would slice you with sharp claws and cut you to pieces. Interesting. Cool concept. Though kind of does still seem like a Flying concept? It's generally accepted that they weren't 100% about what Flying was in Gen I. Initially it appears that they equated Flying=avian creatures, before deciding to expand that to incorporate a broad concept of wind and air powers.

"Hey, Sneasel."

Yeah?

"They have a move based on the same Yokai you're based on"

Uh huh.

"You gonna learn it?

Nah.

 

[SpiritGuy]

How can Reuniclus learn Thunder and not Thunderbolt ??

 

[QuentinQuonce]

How can Reuniclus learn Thunder and not Thunderbolt ??

I'm not sure why but it's likely to have been done to contrast with Gothitelle, which learns Thunderbolt but not Thunder.

If I had to guess I'd say Reuniclus, being a blob of matter, has less focus and control while Gothitelle does.

 

[Low-Key]

"When this Pokémon becomes angry, its pores secrete a poisonous sweat, which it sprays at its opponent's eyes."

If this is the case, then why can't Umbreon learn any Poison-type moves (apart from Toxic?)

 

[SpiritGuy]

"When this Pokémon becomes angry, its pores secrete a poisonous sweat, which it sprays at its opponent's eyes."

If this is the case, then why can't Umbreon learn any Poison-type moves (apart from Toxic?)

Because Umbreon was a Poison type Pokemon back to devlopment of OAC. That's just a vestige of this.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

Mega Kick and Mega Punch are still Normal-type IIRC.

 

[Bakugames]

Mega Kick and Mega Punch are still Normal-type IIRC.

The argument for them is that they are just normal actions. Everyone can do a kick or a punch if they have arms or legs, and mega kick/punch are generalistic moves for that. The difference between them and fighting moves is that fighting moves have some sort of mastery or composition. Professional fighting isn't just random punching like mega punch is

 

[aegon the unlikely]

The argument for them is that they are just normal actions. Everyone can do a kick or a punch if they have arms or legs, and mega kick/punch are generalistic moves for that. The difference between them and fighting moves is that fighting moves have some sort of mastery or composition. Professional fighting isn't just random punching like mega punch is

Actually, I have to disagree. Mega Punch and Mega Kick aren't normal punches or kicks, they're ''super'' punches or kicks. That implies the user has the skill, focus, or might to deliver a punch or kick with immense muscle-backed power. Strong muscles definitely correlate to mastery or composition.

 

[Siggu]

Actually, I have to disagree. Mega Punch and Mega Kick aren't normal punches or kicks, they're ''super'' punches or kicks. That implies the user has the skill, focus, or might to deliver a punch or kick with immense muscle-backed power. Strong muscles definitely correlate to mastery or composition.

Their disappointing accuracy makes me doubt about the whole "mastery" part.

Yes, it's a muscle-packed hit, but it's more like a wild, inaccurate punch than a strong and precise hit of a natural fighter. Same with Mega Kick.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

Their disappointing accuracy makes me doubt about the whole "mastery" part.

Yes, it's a muscle-packed hit, but it's more like a wild, inaccurate punch than a strong and precise hit of a natural fighter. Same with Mega Kick.

I mean, Dynamicpunch and Cross Chop are also relatively inaccurate, but they're both Fighting-type moves lol. High Jump Kick and Jump Kick also have accuracy issues. I don't think there's anything saying inaccuracy and martial arts or fighting skill are connected.

To compare a few punch moves...

Dynamicpunch: ''The foe is punched with the user’s full, concentrated power. It confuses the foe if it hits.''

Mach Punch: ''The user throws a punch at blinding speed. It is certain to strike first.''

Mega Punch: ''The foe is slugged by a punch thrown with muscle-packed power.''

I see no reason why throwing a muscle-packed power punch is somehow not Fighting-type when throwing a blindingly fast punch is. If anything, being muscular and physically strong seem pretty much to be the ''primary'' traits of Fighting Pokemon.

 

[R_N]

They're just meant to be a "big punch" and "big kick", but they get fanciful names out of them because the original game concept had a lot of basic toku inspirtation. I can throw a mean punch to the gut but I have no experience in doing so.

Also mostly it's a hold over from early plans of the game that had a more linear power system to its moves, the earliest prototype lists we have literally have skills called "Punch" and "Kick" which were definitely meant to be the most basic of basic moves alongside things like pound or scratch or tackle.

They probably could've retyped them as time went on but "a big punch" and "a big kick" have more fanciful equivalents in the fighting pool so they probably equal parts didn't care and didn't think it was worth bothering with....or hell might have even forgot about them. After gen 1 the moves kind of fell off a cliff for a while:
-Only a handful of pokemon even by gen 8 learn Mega Punch naturally
-Mega Kick...wow really? Only a leranable move on Hitmonlee until gen 7 where Mudbray/sdale and *squints* Stufful as egg move (which it then lost, because TR!!!!!) and then gen 8 added Stonjourner.
-it was only a tutor move in gen 3, and that was only because all the old gen 1 TMs needed to go somewhere

Gen 8 is the most relevant these moves have ever been, likely due to gutting a lot of other moves and wanting to have 200 moves be teachable. And by this point they cut the most relevant normal move so getting rid of even more strong Normal moves was out of the question.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

They're just meant to be a "big punch" and "big kick", but they get fanciful names out of them because the original game concept had a lot of basic toku inspirtation. I can throw a mean punch to the gut but I have no experience in doing so.

Also mostly it's a hold over from early plans of the game that had a more linear power system to its moves, the earliest prototype lists we have literally have skills called "Punch" and "Kick" which were definitely meant to be the most basic of basic moves alongside things like pound or scratch or tackle.

They probably could've retyped them as time went on but "a big punch" and "a big kick" have more fanciful equivalents in the fighting pool so they probably equal parts didn't care and didn't think it was worth bothering with....or hell might have even forgot about them. After gen 1 the moves kind of fell off a cliff for a while:
-Only a handful of pokemon even by gen 8 learn Mega Punch naturally
-Mega Kick...wow really? Only a leranable move on Hitmonlee until gen 7 where Mudbray/sdale and *squints* Stufful as egg move (which it then lost, because TR!!!!!) and then gen 8 added Stonjourner.
-it was only a tutor move in gen 3, and that was only because all the old gen 1 TMs needed to go somewhere

Gen 8 is the most relevant these moves have ever been, likely due to gutting a lot of other moves and wanting to have 200 moves be teachable. And by this point they cut the most relevant normal move so getting rid of even more strong Normal moves was out of the question.

Fair, I guess.

A Fighting-type Mega Punch or Mega Kick could've been really useful in, say, FR/LG though. You get those moves from move tutors.

 

[CTNC]

Gen 8 is the most relevant these moves have ever been, likely due to gutting a lot of other moves and wanting to have 200 moves be teachable. And by this point they cut the most relevant normal move so getting rid of even more strong Normal moves was out of the question.

Huh. I thought it was weird that Mega Punch and Kick not only weren't cut but were also made TMs, but that makes a ton of sense. The only other powerful (non-signature) Physical Normal Attacks are Double-Edge and Thrash, so I'd probably make Mega Kick the teachable one too. It's also kind of cool to see them become TMs again after only being TMs in Gen 1.


If Mega Kick and Mega Punch would've gotten retyped, it would've been in Gen 2. They changed Bite to Dark and Karate Chop to Fighting. (Why was that ever Normal?) The only other time moves had their type changed was Status Moves being changed to Fairy when that type was made. I don't have a stance on if they should be Normal or Fighting because both make sense to me and I think of them as weird moves because of how rare they were and how much worse than Strength Mega Punch is. I just thought I'd say out they had a chance to change and it's over 20 years gone.

 

[Bakugames]

Actually, I have to disagree. Mega Punch and Mega Kick aren't normal punches or kicks, they're ''super'' punches or kicks. That implies the user has the skill, focus, or might to deliver a punch or kick with immense muscle-backed power. Strong muscles definitely correlate to mastery or composition.

Imagine getting kicked in the skull by a horse. You wouldn't call that a fighting skill in the martial arts pokémon sense. It's just an animal kicking you, no real skill or mastery there. But because the horse's leg is built like a fucking truck you'll at least break your jaw or something.

This whole approach is the fundamental distinction of mega punch/kick vs the other moves and normal vs fighting. Sure, the descriptions are simple, but could a monkey cross chop you? not really, but it might be able to just deck you out with a punch. is a kangaroo going to high jump kick you? probably not, but it might just kick you normally and break half of your bones.

 

[Scorpio]

Imagine getting kicked in the skull by a horse. You wouldn't call that a fighting skill in the martial arts pokémon sense. It's just an animal kicking you, no real skill or mastery there. But because the horse's leg is built like a fucking truck you'll at least break your jaw or something.

This whole approach is the fundamental distinction of mega punch/kick vs the other moves and normal vs fighting. Sure, the descriptions are simple, but could a monkey cross chop you? not really, but it might be able to just deck you out with a punch. is a kangaroo going to high jump kick you? probably not, but it might just kick you normally and break half of your bones.

If High Horsepower is anything to go by a horse kicking you would be a ground skill, but your point still stands.

Also, monkey arms are really mostly good for pulling, with humans really being the only primates who can throw a punch effectively (which doesn’t mean they aren’t strong - one can easily rip you up if they feel threatened or pissed) (also also, while a kangaroo could doubtlessly break a bone by kicking, the intent behind it is actually disembowelment... nature can be scary)... but again, your point still stands.

 

[Bakugames]

also also, while a kangaroo could doubtlessly break a bone by kicking, the intent behind it is actually disembowelment... nature can be scary

hey what the fuck

 

[BoomFantastic]

hey what the fuck

Here's a kangaroo foot, the disembowelment aspect should be clearer now