Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

[Punchshroom]

Texas Cloverleaf believes that Old Rodding Goldeen is better since you get mild grinding against Brawly's Gym trainers with Peck (I doubt Goldeen actually 1v1s any of Brawly's own Pokemon bar his fodder Emerald Meditite). The fact that he never expanded upon Goldeen's other matchups, outside of claiming that a level 15 non-STAB Horn Attack is somehow 'overpowered' at that stage of the game (???), just alludes to Goldeen's insignificance for the early-to-mid game.

I, on the other hand, have no interest in entertaining Goldeen's weak, non-STAB escapades & barren movepool for 20+ levels, and would suggest just Good Rodding for a level 30 one at Route 120 and giving it Surf and Ice Beam so it can actually start effectively killing things immediately & evolve ASAP.

You can still test to see which is more efficient, though.

Edit: Texas Cloverleaf well sorry (not sorry) if I came off as rude; you just still haven't really answered why you thought lv 15 non-STAB Horn Attack was "overpowered", unless you realized it totally wasn't and couldn't retort. Then I understand your silence about the matter. Have a nice day.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Tonight on will they or won't they: will Punchshroom develop the capacity to post without being a dick?

Answer: they did not

 

[Merritt]

Cacnea drops from D tier to E tier.
Pikachu rises from D tier to C tier.

I did a run with both and I think these are fair. Cacnea is honestly pretty bad - it holds up well during the water part of the game after it evolves and vs Tate&Liza, but on the whole was taking a lot of damage and was pretty limited in terms of moves, alongside a horrendous start. Bullet Seed is barely acceptable at this point.

Pikachu is the worst C rank Pokemon now I swear but it's better than the Ds on the whole. Way frailer than I'm a fan of and was barely missing out on OHKOs and 2HKOs fairly often. Level up Thunderbolt would be cooler if the Thunderstone didn't require New Mauville anyways. I didn't get lucky enough to find a Pikachu with Light Ball, but I'm incredibly doubtful that'd change anything.

Two things: First there's one specific discussion point and that's Barboach. My run with it (the same one I used Pikachu and Cacnea in) was unenlightening, so I welcome alternative perspectives.

Second, I'm opening writeups a week from today. If there are Pokemon you think are still ranked incorrectly, please say so before writeups open and I'll put a moratorium on em. Do not reserve writing up Pokemon before I post saying reservations are open, so to give a chance for Pokemon to be singled out for a last look. We're going to try and move on with this project.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed thus far.

 

[sumwun]

We can still move Pokemon during the writeups stage, right? There are some things I want to play with, but I might not have time to do that until maybe 3 or 4 months later.
There were some people in the tiering policy thread talking about 3 paragraph writeups or something like that. Are we still using the availability/stats/typing/movepool/major battles/additional comments format, the new 3 paragraph thing, or something else?

Pikachu is the worst C rank Pokemon now I swear but it's better than the Ds on the whole. Way frailer than I'm a fan of and was barely missing out on OHKOs and 2HKOs fairly often. Level up Thunderbolt would be cooler if the Thunderstone didn't require New Mauville anyways. I didn't get lucky enough to find a Pikachu with Light Ball, but I'm incredibly doubtful that'd change anything.

Is Raichu really that much frailer than Electrode? Or requires that much more sidetracking than Electrode? Why do you think Raichu is worse than Electrode?

 

[Merritt]

We can still move Pokemon during the writeups stage, right? There are some things I want to play with, but I might not have time to do that until maybe 3 or 4 months later.

If a Pokemon isn't specifically set aside over the next week, then consider it locked barring extreme circumstances which will not occur.

If anybody tries to be cute and list off like 40 Pokemon then I'm going to ignore them.

There were some people in the tiering policy thread talking about 3 paragraph writeups or something like that. Are we still using the availability/stats/typing/movepool/major battles/additional comments format, the new 3 paragraph thing, or something else?

At this point in time, we'll be using the current format in the OP. If this changes after things are written up, I'll deal with editing those entries myself.

Is Raichu really that much frailer than Electrode? Or requires that much more sidetracking than Electrode? Why do you think Raichu is worse than Electrode?

It certainly felt like it when taking physical hits relatively often. Stuff that I'd feel comfortable with Electrode taking two hits from I didn't get the same from Raichu. Electrode also of course has the rather useful tool of Selfdestruct and actually Screech has been handy in the past for letting a teammate break through a tougher opponent. It also of course doesn't require backtracking to be used against Winona.

 

[sumwun]

In that case, I want to set aside Shedinja, Seviper, Golduck, and Girafarig for now because all 4 of them were brought up on the last page.

Edit: For each fire Pokemon (Blaziken, Camerupt, Magcargo, Torkoal, Ninetales), what is its best fire attack when both fire blast and overheat (and flamethrower for some cases) are available?

 

[sumwun]

This is my first nomination in about 5 months and my first A tier nomination in almost 2 years. It's kind of nice to be back. would be nicer if I didn't feel rushed to post everything before writeups start

Marill to A (at least in E, maybe also in RS) (yes this does imply I think we should wait to write Marill's writeup)
Marill comes with huge power-boosted tackle before the first gym and is easy to overlevel, so it can output a constant stream of normal spam throughout the entire game. The only opponents that won't let it take a big chunk of their team are Wattson and Wallace. 100/80/80 bulk is noteworthy, better than most other A tier things, and the huge power and fast growth rate more than makes up for the lack of physical STAB. Its low speed prevents it from completely sweeping many gym leader and Elite 4 teams, but I think its ability to 1v1 just about anything and pick its matchups is good enough for A tier. It gets strength and bubble beam a little bit after tackle and water gun start becoming useless, and it should have 102 power return by Winona. The late game lets Azumarill learn brick break and roll through Sidney and Glacia even better than it already could. With return, surf, and brick break, it still has a slot left for whatever useless HM its teammates don't want.

Welp, I've finally decided that Girafarig does indeed have what it takes to be worthy of C Rank. It's immediately able to put in work with Thunderbolt against Winona & later against Water bosses, it's a Psychic-type that dunks over Phoebe instead of vice-versa, and it even have a few movepool quirks such as Agility or Baton Pass which work marvelously alongside Calm Mind and can help to overcome level disadvantages in boss fights.

I also think Girafarig should rise. High attack stats and speed is like the ideal stat spread, and Girafarig has the typing and movepool to back it up. (bug attacks are almost absent in the late game, and Sidney has maybe 2 dark attacks) Its large movepool lets it run one of many different sets, such as return, thunderbolt, shadow ball/crunch, whatever and calm mind, psychic, thunderbolt, crunch. Girafarig's psychic resistance also makes it better against Tate and Liza.

I'm much less sure about where Shedinja, Seviper, Barboach, and Psyduck should go.

One more question: For each fire Pokemon (Blaziken, Camerupt, Magcargo, Torkoal, Ninetales), what is its best fire attack when both fire blast and overheat (and flamethrower for some cases) are available?

 

[Merritt]

This is my first nomination in about 5 months and my first A tier nomination in almost 2 years. It's kind of nice to be back. would be nicer if I didn't feel rushed to post everything before writeups start

Marill to A (at least in E, maybe also in RS) (yes this does imply I think we should wait to write Marill's writeup)
Marill comes with huge power-boosted tackle before the first gym and is easy to overlevel, so it can output a constant stream of normal spam throughout the entire game. The only opponents that won't let it take a big chunk of their team are Wattson and Wallace. 100/80/80 bulk is noteworthy, better than most other A tier things, and the huge power and fast growth rate more than makes up for the lack of physical STAB. Its low speed prevents it from completely sweeping many gym leader and Elite 4 teams, but I think its ability to 1v1 just about anything and pick its matchups is good enough for A tier. It gets strength and bubble beam a little bit after tackle and water gun start becoming useless, and it should have 102 power return by Winona. The late game lets Azumarill learn brick break and roll through Sidney and Glacia even better than it already could. With return, surf, and brick break, it still has a slot left for whatever useless HM its teammates don't want.

In terms of offensive potential, Azumarill is nearly 1 to 1 comparable to Gyarados in the grand scheme of the game. Both make fairly poor use of their STAB, both have very good bulk, and both rely hard on Normal type moves for their offensive output. In fact, assuming average IVs, they're both going to be working from a near identical Attack stat.

Marill is better than Magikarp, sure, but it's definitely not good. At all. Marill Tackle is weaker than Torchic Scratch, and Water Gun is only passable when it's super effective. It's easier to raise Marill than Magikarp for sure, but Marill is a pitiful offensive contributor to teams in the earlygame. It can help against Roxanne (though it's not an itemless win against Nosepass), but Brawly is going to outdamage and murder Marill without grinding the rabbit.

The difference in lategame between Gyarados and Marill offensively is favorable to Gyarados overall largely due to higher speed (but also somewhat better usage of special attacks) since Azu's constantly taking chip damage, usually two hits because it's not going to OHKO often. Brick Break helps against Sidney and Glacia, but Azu doesn't sweep them without heavy item support.

This is obviously all things to apply to Emerald Marill - RS Marill is flat out worse than Magikarp on the whole. In short, I'd like you to explain why Azumarill is better than the very comparable Gyarados to the point that it deserves to be ranked higher.



Also, please feel free to begin reserving Pokemon to write up. Do not reserve Marill, Girafarig*, Barboach, Seviper*, Shedinja*, or Psyduck. The current writeup format is in the OP.

Please also do not reserve any Pokemon ranked D or below as they will likely not receive a writeup.

 

[Nelson Tangela]

In terms of offensive potential, Azumarill is nearly 1 to 1 comparable to Gyarados in the grand scheme of the game. Both make fairly poor use of their STAB, both have very good bulk, and both rely hard on Normal type moves for their offensive output. In fact, assuming average IVs, they're both going to be working from a near identical Attack stat.

Marill is better than Magikarp, sure, but it's definitely not good. At all. Marill Tackle is weaker than Torchic Scratch, and Water Gun is only passable when it's super effective. It's easier to raise Marill than Magikarp for sure, but Marill is a pitiful offensive contributor to teams in the earlygame. It can help against Roxanne (though it's not an itemless win against Nosepass), but Brawly is going to outdamage and murder Marill without grinding the rabbit.

The difference in lategame between Gyarados and Marill offensively is favorable to Gyarados overall largely due to higher speed (but also somewhat better usage of special attacks) since Azu's constantly taking chip damage, usually two hits because it's not going to OHKO often. Brick Break helps against Sidney and Glacia, but Azu doesn't sweep them without heavy item support.

This is obviously all things to apply to Emerald Marill - RS Marill is flat out worse than Magikarp on the whole. In short, I'd like you to explain why Azumarill is better than the very comparable Gyarados to the point that it deserves to be ranked higher.



Also, please feel free to begin reserving Pokemon to write up. Do not reserve Marill, Girafarig*, Barboach, Seviper*, Shedinja*, or Psyduck. The current writeup format is in the OP.

Please also do not reserve any Pokemon ranked D or below as they will likely not receive a writeup.

I just wanted to add that Gyarados provides Intimidate, which is not only extremely helpful in battles but also useful as an overworld ability to scare away random wild encounters and make it easier to get through the game. Azumarill can't compete with that kind of support.

 

[Merritt]

I just wanted to add that Gyarados provides Intimidate, which is not only extremely helpful in battles but also useful as an overworld ability to scare away random wild encounters and make it easier to get through the game. Azumarill can't compete with that kind of support.

Important note for this though is that it's only in Emerald. No, Intimidate Pokemon are not going to be split between RS and E.

 

[Punchshroom]

Please also do not reserve any Pokemon ranked D or below as they will likely not receive a writeup.

It feels kinda weird to leave out D Rank when the B2W2 in-game tierlist included their D Rank. What's more, B2W2 included all of their ranks (S to D, no E) and I'm pretty sure they have even more Pokemon than this tierlist, so I don't really know why this exclusion is needed, outside of it just being a "preliminary adjustment" sort of thing.

Edit: Merritt I already have write-ups ready for Gulpin, Grimer, and Koffing, but I guess I'll just bring them up once all the S to C write-ups are done.

Name: Pikachu
Availability: Safari Zone, Area 1 & 2 Grass, 15%, Levels 25 or 27
Stats: High Speed but lackluster stats everywhere else. Offenses improve upon evolution or using the Light Ball item.
Typing: Electric typing has great use against Winona, the upcoming water routes, and Water-type bosses such as Juan, Wallace, and Glacia.
Movepool: Level 25 Pikachus come with Thunder Wave and learn Thunderbolt in 1 level, whereas Level 27 Pikachus already come with Thunderbolt, but needs to be reteached Thunder Wave, so take your pick on which is more valuable for you. As an Electric-type, Pikachu's movepool is pretty sparse, but it does get Brick Break and Light Screen to improve its coverage and utility, respectively. Because Pikachu doesn't need anything from its level-up movepool that can't be taught by TM, it is advised to evolve it immediately.
Major Battles: A quick backtrack lets Raichu grind for experience against Winona's Gym and take out everything except for Winona's Altaria. Raichu can fry most of the Water-types of Juan, Wallace, and Glacia and use Light Screen to help buffer hits better. Thunder Wave can help to neuter Drake's Salamence, while Brick Break has some mild use against Glacia's Light Screen Glalie as well as Sidney in general.
Additional Comments: While Pikachu does not need the Thunderbolt TM, it is still necessary to travel through New Mauville to acquire the Thunderstone, unless you're lucky enough to catch a Pikachu holding a Light Ball. One could also manipulate Pikachu's nature with the Pokeblock feeder, with dry berries increasing the likelihood of +SpA natures and sweet berries making +Spe natured Pikachus more common.

Name: Shroomish
Availability: Petalburg Woods, 15%, Levels 5-6
Stats: Good bulk with low offenses and Speed. Upon evolution, its Attack stat skyrockets to become obscenely high, especially at such an early point in the game.
Typing: Grass typing is useful for the earlier portions of the game due to its advantage against Rock and Electric. Upon gaining the Fighting type upon evolution, it gains favorable matchups against Normal-, Dark-, and Steel-types, while possessing neat resistances to Ground, Water, Dark, and Rock.
Movepool: Shroomish relies on disruptive moves such as Stun Spore, Leech Seed, and Mega Drain to take full advantage of its bulk and make up for its lack of power. Once it evolves, it changes gears to become an attacking powerhouse, crushing foes with moves like Bulk Up, Mach Punch, Rock Tomb, Silk Scarf-boosted Headbutt / Strength, Sludge Bomb, and Sky Uppercut, most of which are very powerful attacks for when they are learned compared to most Pokemon.
Major Battles: Shroomish can solo Roxanne while being able to hinder Brawly with Leech Seed. Breloom can smash Wattson, Archie, and Sidney pretty easily as well as wipe out most of Norman's trainers, while Norman himself can be dealt with clever use of Bulk Up and / or Counter. It loses to Flannery, Winona, Tate&Liza, and Phoebe, but otherwise its immense power makes it a threat against nearly any opponent it fights, especially with the threat of Bulk Up + X-Speed sweeps.
Additional Comments: Breloom's usefulness against Glacia is heavily decided on whether Breloom is able to outspeed her Pokemon. Try to catch a Shroomish with a +Spe nature (or at least not a -Spe nature) and feed it any Carbos you can find.

Name: Absol
Availability: Route 120 Grass, 8%, Level 25 or 27
Stats: Glass cannon; very high Attack stat with decent Speed and Special Attack, but poor defenses.
Typing: Dark typing is useful for its Psychic immunity and Ghost resistance, but does not serve Absol very well in the attacking department at all.
Movepool: Absol is TM-reliant, but fortunately it has a very diverse movepool that can easily be tailored to your needs. It has Swords Dance to bolster moves such as Shadow Ball, Aerial Ace, and Strength to extremely powerful levels, or it can take advantage of the coverage granted by Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, and Flamethrower, which it can further augment with Calm Mind if it wants.
Major Battles: Ice Beam + Thunderbolt Absol should wipe out Winona's Gym provided it OHKOes every target. Absol can smash Tate&Liza, though it is concerned by Emerald Claydol's Earthquake and Xatu's Confuse Ray. Absol can use Calm Mind + Thunderbolt to beat Juan/Wallace provided Whiscash is out of the way first, which usually means setting up on the Sealeo or Juan's Crawdaunt. BoltBeam coverage or Swords Dance + Strength help combat Sidney, while Swords Dance + Shadow Ball should wipe out Phoebe (although her lead Dusclops's Curse will deny the clean sweep). Absol could attempt a Calm Mind sweep against Glacia and Drake, though Absol's fraility makes this an unpractical endeavor without using up a ton of items, and is usually better off only attempting to pick off one of their Pokemon at a time. The fraility is made even more apparent against the Champion, where Absol is not expected to boost very safely at all.

 

[Merritt]

It feels kinda weird to leave out D Rank when the B2W2 in-game tierlist included their D Rank. What's more, B2W2 included all of their ranks (S to D, no E) and I'm pretty sure they have even more Pokemon than this tierlist, so I don't really know why this exclusion is needed, outside of it just being a "preliminary adjustment" sort of thing.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...policy-discussion-thread.3616692/post-7800620
This would be why!

 

[sumwun]

First, these are the Pokemon that I want to look at some more before we write their writeups. I'm sorry that this list took so long to put together, and I hope it's not too late to set these aside. Note that I will likely not mention another word about half of these; I'm listing them only because I might want to discuss them later.

Abra, Chinchou, Magikarp, Wingull, Machop, Numel, Oddish (Vileplume), Skarmory, Trapinch, Zigzagoon

Now that Punchshroom has already started writing about his/her/its favorite Pokemon, I'll reserve Carvanha and Heracross. By the way, since D-F Pokemon aren't getting full writeups, does that mean we can continue moving them around for a few more months?

In terms of offensive potential, Azumarill is nearly 1 to 1 comparable to Gyarados in the grand scheme of the game. Both make fairly poor use of their STAB, both have very good bulk, and both rely hard on Normal type moves for their offensive output. In fact, assuming average IVs, they're both going to be working from a near identical Attack stat.

I do not think Azumarill is a lot better than Gyarados. I was planning to propose that both move to A, as I think that's better than keeping either in B. Is there a reason why you don't want Gyarados to be A tier?

Marill is better than Magikarp, sure, but it's definitely not good. At all. Marill Tackle is weaker than Torchic Scratch, and Water Gun is only passable when it's super effective. It's easier to raise Marill than Magikarp for sure, but Marill is a pitiful offensive contributor to teams in the earlygame. It can help against Roxanne (though it's not an itemless win against Nosepass), but Brawly is going to outdamage and murder Marill without grinding the rabbit.

Yes Marill sucks against Roxanne (but still better than Wingull), but Azumarill evolves at level 18. Brawly can't murder a level 18 or 20 Azumarill with huge power and tackle.

The difference in lategame between Gyarados and Marill offensively is favorable to Gyarados overall largely due to higher speed (but also somewhat better usage of special attacks) since Azu's constantly taking chip damage, usually two hits because it's not going to OHKO often. Brick Break helps against Sidney and Glacia, but Azu doesn't sweep them without heavy item support.

Gyarados does get stuff like thunderbolt and ice beam, but even when they're super effective, they aren't much stronger than its own earthquake or Azumarill's return. Both can clean out the late-game water types with their physical attacks. Sure, Azumarill can't sweep every Elite 4 team, but neither can Gyarados (or half of the A tier). Absol's rock slide hurts Gyarados more. Phoebe has a thunderbolt Banette and a very bulky Dusclops that hinder both of them. One battle where Azumarill is a lot better is Glacia because Azumarill resists ice, and its brick break is much stronger than Gyarados's thunderbolt. So if Azumarill can't sweep Glacia, then Gyarados can't either.

I just wanted to add that Gyarados provides Intimidate, which is not only extremely helpful in battles but also useful as an overworld ability to scare away random wild encounters and make it easier to get through the game. Azumarill can't compete with that kind of support.

Throughout my experience with playing Emerald, the only 2 physical attackers that are really threatening are Norman's Slaking(s) and Drake's Flygon. I don't think intimidate is a big deciding factor in this game.

 

[Merritt]

Note that I will likely not mention another word about half of these; I'm listing them only because I might want to discuss them later.

I see.

By the way, since D-F Pokemon aren't getting full writeups, does that mean we can continue moving them around for a few more months?

They can, but I'd like the focus to be on getting the writeups done rather than moving things.

I do not think Azumarill is a lot better than Gyarados. I was planning to propose that both move to A, as I think that's better than keeping either in B. Is there a reason why you don't want Gyarados to be A tier?

A lack of STAB and terrible super effective coverage means that Gyarados (and Azumarill) are left struggling for OHKOs against semi bulky and high leveled neutral targets with regards to their lategame combat ability. There are few major battles where Gyarados particularly excels - it's more than competent against basically all of them but it's struggling to clear any of them without any effort. Azumarill is of course in the same boat but worse since it's taking even more attacks.

Also holding them back from A is the horrific pre evolved period. Gyarados is very good basically the instant it evolves (though it does tend to fall off somewhat as the game gears up) but before that it's deadweight. Marill is less dead weight but barely. I can't understate enough how bad it is.

Yes Marill sucks against Roxanne (but still better than Wingull)

Keep in mind that Marill has the potential to not OHKO the Geodudes if it's not decently leveled and is unlikely to even get close to a 3HKO (not counting the Oran Berry) on Nosepass. Wingull at the very least avoids the uncertainty entirely of dealing with the Geodudes and can chunk Nosepass for a good amount.

Brawly can't murder a level 18 or 20 Azumarill with huge power and tackle.

Getting Azumarill for Brawly is a huge task without a good grinding session because it's a full 14 levels using a really bad Pokemon. Yes, Azumarill can take on Brawly, though it's not particularly fast at it.

I strongly oppose moving Magikarp and Marill up to A rank. If this gathers support then fair enough, but I'm completely unconvinced as it stands.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Support oppose emerald marill A

 

[Punchshroom]

Edit: Merritt

Name: Meditite
Availability: Mt. Pyre Exterior, 30%, Levels 27 or 29
Stats: Mediocre to average stats. Pure Power is the only thing salvaging Meditite, but doubling the Attack stat makes for a massive power boost.
Typing: Meditite will primarily use its Fighting-type for its offense. Its Psychic-typing makes opposing Psychic attacks neutral, but removes its Dark resistance and gives it a Ghost weakness, making it a double-edged sword.
Movepool: Meditite's only form of offense when caught is Hidden Power, which is highly unlikely to be useful. This means that Meditite will have to rely on TMs such as Shadow Ball and Secret Power to fight on its own. Hi Jump Kick arrives at level 32 which shouldn't be far if you've caught the highest leveled Meditite, though that should be replaced by the more reliable Brick Break TM once you obtain it in Sootopolis. Medicham also has the option of Ice Punch via move relearner, though its use is highly situational at best.
Major Battles: Medicham's Shadow Ball rips through Tate&Liza, while a couple of Bulk Ups can allow Medicham to sweep through Wallace, Sidney, Glacia, and even possibly Steven, though an X Speed may be necessary to facilitate a clean sweep. Medicham is not expected to set up very comfortably against Phoebe, but Spell Tag-boosted Shadow Ball can heavily dent her Banettes so it can still put in work. Ice Punch also lets Medicham contribute against Drake, though don't expect Ice Punch to OHKO any of the Dragons, while Medicham must also be wary against the ones who pack Fly.

Name: Taillow
Availability: Route 104, 10%, Levels 4-5.
Stats: Terrific Speed and decent Attack, but bad defenses.
Typing: Normal/Flying typing gives access to good STABs early on, though that typing's usefulness will wane as the game progresses.
Movepool: Taillow is never out of reach of high powered STAB moves, with a potent early-game level-up movepool and taught moves such as Secret Power, Fly, Return, and Hyper Beam. However, Taillow doesn't have any other worthwhile attacking options.
Major Battles: Taillow's speed and strength lets it easily prey on route trainers, but outside of Brawly, Taillow doesn't actually excel in any important battles. Taillow can usually pick off most weaker Pokemon, but is otherwise usually heavily outmatched by the boss's ace Pokemon, so it must pick its matchups carefully lest it get taken out without KOing anything.

 

[sumwun]

A lack of STAB and terrible super effective coverage means that Gyarados (and Azumarill) are left struggling for OHKOs against semi bulky and high leveled neutral targets with regards to their lategame combat ability. There are few major battles where Gyarados particularly excels - it's more than competent against basically all of them but it's struggling to clear any of them without any effort. Azumarill is of course in the same boat but worse since it's taking even more attacks.

When Gyarados and Azumarill aren't one-shotting their opponents, at least their opponents aren't one-shotting them back. If being only competent in late-game battles isn't enough for A tier, why is Kadabra in A? Its awful physical defense and over-reliance on psychic makes it unhelpful against every Elite 4 except Glacia. I don't think Kadabra's early-mid game performance offsets this. Compared to Gyardos, it's a bit better against Wattson but much worse against Flannery and Norman. So why is Kadabra a tier above Gyarados and Azumarill?

By the way, do these writeups look good?

Carvanha
Availability: Route 118 with Good Rod, mid-late, 20%, levels 10 to 30. Try to catch one that's at least level 25.
Stats: Carvanha quickly evolves into Sharpedo, which uses its good Special Attack and Speed to outspeed and one-shot many things. However, its leveling rate holds it back slightly. Its low defenses cause Sharpedo to wear down quickly as it fights regular trainers.
Typing: Dark STAB is useful in the late game. Given its bad defense stats, Sharpedo's defensive typing doesn't matter much, but Psychic immunity helps sometimes.
Movepool: Carvanha encountered at level 22 or higher should already know Crunch. It can immediately learn Surf and Ice Beam, which covers Flying and Dragon. Sharpedo can also learn Earthquake and several HM moves, though they're not as useful as Surf, Ice Beam, or Crunch.
Major Battles: Bad defenses prevent it from sweeping entire teams, but its movepool means it has no particularly bad matchups. Sharpedo's attacks are perfect for dealing massive damage to Winona and Tate and Liza. It also does well against Phoebe, but Drake's Pokemon can outspeed and one-shot it.

Heracross
Availability: Safari Zone northeast area, late, 5%, levels 27 and 29. You might want to use Sweet Scent for this.
Stats: Heracross's amazing Physical Attack and good Speed are perfect for quickly defeating regular trainers, and its decent bulk means you don't have to heal it very often.
Typing: Fighting is a good offensive type, but its weaknesses are kind of common. The Bug type is there just to make Heracross weaker to Fire and Flying.
Movepool: Heracross comes already knowing Brick Break and can immediately learn Strength and Bulk Up. It usually only needs to spam Brick Break, but you can teach Heracross Earthquake or Return for some extra coverage. Don't bother with Megahorn; you'll most likely finish the game before Heracross reaches level 53.
Major Battles: Heracross can sweep or nearly sweep the last gym leader, Sidney, and Glacia after a few Bulk Ups. It's much worse against Winona, Tate and Liza, and Drake because their Pokemon can target Heracross's weaknesses. Heracross is useful against Phoebe only if it knows Earthquake.
Additional Comments: You can manipulate Heracross's nature by inserting Pokeblocks into Pokeblock feeders. Pokeblocks made of Leppa Berries increase the chance of +Physical Attack or -Special Attack natures, while those made from Pecha Berries increase +Speed or -Special Attack. Also, Guts is the slightly better ability.

reserving Makuhita

Punchshroom Raichu is an uncommon electric Pokemon, so do you think it's worth mentioning that static makes it more common in Emerald? It's found in the Safari Zone, so do you think the nature manipulating is worth mentioning? I think the best berry in this case is the Razz berry, which increases the chance of +special attack or -special defense.

Merritt

Makuhita
Availability: Granite Cave B1F, early, 10%, levels 10 to 11
Stats: Enormous HP lets Hariyama tank stuff and use lots of Bulk Ups, and strong Physical Attack (after evolving) lets it 1v1 most things with or without Bulk Up. However, low defenses and Speed means it takes annoying status moves and consumes lots of potions when you fight regular trainers.
Typing: Fighting is a good offensive type throughout the game. The Psychic weakness occasionally hinders Hariyama.
Movepool: Makuhita learns Vital Throw at level 13. (priority isn't a problem. it's moving last either way) It can learn Bulk Up, which Hariyama can use almost anytime thanks to its high HP. Much later, Hariyama can learn the slightly higher PP and priority Brick Break. It doesn't need much else, but you can teach it Whirlwind for Double Team spammers or Dig, Strength, or Earthquake for some extra PP and coverage.
Major Battles: Brawly is just your Makuhita versus his, and his probably has the higher level. From here on, every major battle is just a question of whether the opponent has a Pokemon that lets Hariyama use a bunch of Bulk Ups. Consequently, Tate and Liza and the champion are the only really difficult fights. Of course, some opponents (namely Winona, Phoebe, and Drake) require more Bulk Ups than others.
Additional Comments: Thick Fat is the better ability because it makes Flannery and Glacia much easier. Makuhita has fluctuating leveling rate, so leveling up starts very easy and gradually becomes more difficult. Makuhita are also 3/4 male, so Attract users might be annoying.

I did the calculations for Makit. A level 50 Hariyama with 84 EVs and 16 IVs has the stats 222/143/83/63/83/73. A boosted experience Hariyama that gains the "same amount" of experience reaches level 56, and a level 56 Hariyama with 84 EVs and 5/5/4/4/4/4 IVs has the stats 241/153/86/63/86/75. Therefore, I think Makit is worth mentioning in the writeup.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Bored so I'm gonna do another run, looking at which options might need verification

Is Abra (No trade) A? Is Marill B? Is Barboach useable?

Oddish sounds fun, test if it's C or B, Spoink and Zubat the same

Doduo and Speal are D, could maybe be C on a test

Girafarig seems weird in D, Solrock doesn't, both seem interesting to test

Whismur looks like ass, could test it anyway. Poochyena might be underrated? Tempting to test if it can make D.


Anyone have any preferences or suggestions for things I should use? At the moment I'm inclined towards Poochyena, Oddish, Barboach, Zubat or Doduo, Girafarig or Abra, and random HM slave.

Some input is appreciated!

 

[sumwun]

Anyone have any preferences or suggestions for things I should use? At the moment I'm inclined towards Poochyena, Oddish, Barboach, Zubat or Doduo, Girafarig or Abra, and random HM slave.

I'd rather see you use Dodrio and not Crobat. Ice attacks become super common in the late game, and Dodrio's movepool isn't exactly wide, so I'm thinking that might justify moving it to E tier. And I guess you can use Kadabra if you don't like having 2 normal Pokemon on the same team.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I don't typically use normal mons unless they have secondary typings anyway, have no issues using both dodrio and giraffe if I go that way

Punchshroom Merritt any input?

 

[Merritt]

I'd like to see Abra.

Don't think Pooch stands a plausible chance of making it out of E - it's really bad. I've run it as a solo a few times (which put it at a significant level advantage compared to what you'd use in a 3-4 mon team) along with the normal efficient runs and it struggles hard.

If you're gonna use Pooch, the way it can beat Roxanne without blowing quite as many Potions or grinding as much is to use the X Defend and X Special that are lying around to boost Bite. Either way, it definitely needs to hit 13 and Bite to not be dead weight against Roxanne. Also you'll need to skip Brawly since Mightyena isn't going to be able to win until you get Strength (or grind to level 30 I guess).

sumwun the fact that Makit has a much worse matchup against Flannery and Glacia, is unable to contribute against Brawly, forces the player to confront Brawly immediately else Makit completely falls behind, doesn't actually sweep Roxanne without item support (both Geodude and Nosepass will outspeed the level 10 Makit and 3HKO with Tackle) alongside needing noticeable grinding using a weak Tackle to get to level 10, requires that the player grab a 5% encounter Slakoth, and only barely manages to eke out a very minor stat increase compared to an average player owned Makuhita at endgame (so it's inferior at every point beforehand) means that Makit is certainly less efficient than using a wild Makuhita. Do not mention Makit in the writeup.

I'll take a closer look at the writeups later this week.

 

[sumwun]

If you're gonna use Pooch, the way it can beat Roxanne without blowing quite as many Potions or grinding as much is to use the X Defend and X Special that are lying around to boost Bite. Either way, it definitely needs to hit 13 and Bite to not be dead weight against Roxanne. Also you'll need to skip Brawly since Mightyena isn't going to be able to win until you get Strength (or grind to level 30 I guess).

Poochyena is mostly dead weight until Wattson, so why don't Emerald players get the Poochyena on Route 117? It comes at a higher level, and they have one less Pokemon taking experience for the first part of the game.

sumwun the fact that Makit has a much worse matchup against Flannery and Glacia, is unable to contribute against Brawly, forces the player to confront Brawly immediately else Makit completely falls behind, doesn't actually sweep Roxanne without item support (both Geodude and Nosepass will outspeed the level 10 Makit and 3HKO with Tackle) alongside needing noticeable grinding using a weak Tackle to get to level 10, requires that the player grab a 5% encounter Slakoth, and only barely manages to eke out a very minor stat increase compared to an average player owned Makuhita at endgame (so it's inferior at every point beforehand) means that Makit is certainly less efficient than using a wild Makuhita. Do not mention Makit in the writeup.

Done. But I still don't get the "inferior at every point beforehand" part. The boosted experience applies for the whole game, and it makes a difference of 6 HP and 2 physical attack by level 24 (equivalent to level 26 for Makit).

 

[Punchshroom]

I don't typically use normal mons unless they have secondary typings anyway, have no issues using both dodrio and giraffe if I go that way

Punchshroom Merritt any input?

Girafarig shouldn't even be considered a "Normal-type" in the strict sense anyway, seeing as it has no need for Normal STAB; I recommended Strength over Return last time purely for HM purposes (also bonus neutral coverage vs Tate&Liza's Gym trainers). That said, Strength should definitely be forgotten later in favor of some other useful attack for the E4, like the Reflect/Light Screen TM, leveling up to 49 for Crunch, Heart Scale for Agility or Baton Pass, the Earthquake TM for Steven (if absolutely nothing else on your team wants it), or even the Attract TM on male Girafairg to set up CMs easier vs Phoebe and Glacia.

Not sure if this is the kind of input you're looking for, but there ya go.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Girafarig shouldn't even be considered a "Normal-type" in the strict sense anyway, seeing as it has no need for Normal STAB; I recommended Strength over Return last time purely for HM purposes (also bonus neutral coverage vs Tate&Liza's Gym trainers). That said, Strength should definitely be forgotten later in favor of some other useful attack for the E4, like the Reflect/Light Screen TM, leveling up to 49 for Crunch, Heart Scale for Agility or Baton Pass, the Earthquake TM for Steven (if absolutely nothing else on your team wants it), or even the Attract TM on male Girafairg to set up CMs easier vs Phoebe and Glacia.

Not sure if this is the kind of input you're looking for, but there ya go.

Appreciated in all senses and the commentary on Abra and Poochyena is noted. Any other team member specific thoughts or desires are also welcome.

 

[Punchshroom]

Anyone have any preferences or suggestions for things I should use? At the moment I'm inclined towards Poochyena, Oddish, Barboach, Zubat or Doduo, Girafarig or Abra, and random HM slave.

Some input is appreciated!

Opinion on Barboach:

C to B
"Discount Swampert" is still pretty damn great, especially when it starts off with Surf, EQ, and the Ice Beam TM the moment you get it, though it needs to be Good Rodded at its highest level of 30. Barboach has pretty much no losing matchups outside of the super telegraphed Grass-type attack (Sidney's Shiftry is not one of these btw), and nearly any boss that risks overpowering Whiscash can be stopped by Amnesia. It's not particularly powerful but the power of its attacks more than make up for this, and from my experiences Whicash makes for an even better Amnesia user than Swalot in all the battles that matter. Unfortunately it misses out on Wattson and Flannery, but it's still plenty good for the remaining matchups in the game.

Whiscash would probably end up only 3HKOing neutral opponents at best, though Amnesia can allow Whiscash to sit there soaking up X Attacks (or even X Speeds) for longer before needing to heal.

Early Zubat is gutter trash so let's skip that. Most efficient Zubat would be the max Lv20 one in Meteor Falls, though Zubats range between levels 14 to 20 which can make it annoying to find. It also has to wait longer to evolve to Crobat since it's obtained relatively later. Much like Swellow, Crobat does not excel in any important fights whatsoever (outside of minor hax like Confuse Ray or Sludge Bomb poison) and only really shines when wiping out route fodder. While it's bulkier than Swellow, it doesn't comfortably win any matchups that Swellow wouldn't either. Thus, I don't see it being on par with Taillow, who at least has a strong early game period which Zubat absolutely does not claim.

RS Poochyena's babying period is awful and is limited to Sand-Attacking bosses just to contribute, much less win. Emerald Poochyena is slightly better since you can get one with Bite at Route 117 (west of Mauville), but not enough for me to differentiate it in rank from RS Pooch. Intimidate + Sand-Attack make for decent debuffs but is otherwise insignificant utility on all but the worst of teams, or flat out ineffective (Mightyena can't even debut well with these strats since they don't work against Wattson and Flannery, and doesn't affect Steven's Metagross). The only time this disruption is actually notable & effective is against Norman, which is the absolute best (only) thing I can say about Mightyena. Bad stats and poor movepool just hold it back way too much.

Oddish's early game period is pretty terrible since it's over-reliant on Powders just to do damage and 1v1 things. So, much like Electrike, Oddish is best obtained after Surf. However, unlike Electrike where you can quickly grab it at Route 118 and instantly put in work, you have to venture quite deep after crossing that bit of sea, and by that I mean you need to head all the way into the Safari Zone, because that's where the SolarBeam TM is (needs Mach Bike + Surf). Make sure to grab the Sunny Day TM on the way, as well as Leaf Stone if you wish to evolve it into Vileplume. The Sun Stone is only obtainable in Mossdeep. Once you have the SunnyBeam TMs, just grab a nearby Gloom and it's ready to go with SunnyBeam, Sleep Powder, and a filler move. Note: Gloom is still about as powerful as Bellossom while being serviceably bulky, so it can still fight on its own before it evolves.

Here's where the ranking disparity comes into play (Plume is in C while Bellossom is in D), which I find to be unjustified. Vileplume can be obtained earlier and has STAB Sludge Bomb for better route clearing. Bellossom on the other hand is obtained later, and while it does not have STAB Sludge Bomb, it does have the option of relearning Magical Leaf, a Grass STAB that can be used on mooks without running into PP issues like Giga Drain would. In terms of time of arrival, the only sections Vileplume has access to that Bellossom misses out on is the Team Hideout (two of them in Emerald), but aside from that, Bellossom does not come "too late" since it's still on time for the Water routes & Gym Leader. The choice of "spammable STAB" between the two is not quite as significant, though Poison's coverage becomes increasingly less useful in the lategame, which can slightly offset Sludge Bomb's power advantage. Speaking of Poison, Bellossom not being part Poison is actually a significant advantage it has over Vileplume, meaning it has a better matchup against Tate&Liza as well as Phoebe.

So basically, while Vileplume arrives earlier and slightly stronger, Bellossom's typing is probably more useful in the long run. Texas Cloverleaf, if possible, I'd like you to test two runs with Oddish to see if Bellossom is worthy of being ranked at C alongside Vileplume.