SPOILERS! Pokemon Sword and Shield Datamine Thread

https://nintendoeverything.com/game...e-making-of-pokemon-sword-and-pokemon-shield/
Well, that was certainly a read

seems like S&S was a total failure from its director point of view then? the graphics are generic at best for a Switch game, the only way it "fits a player's lifestyle" is poorly thanks to its shaky (even for the Switch) online functionality, the clothes are nothing special and if anything lack variety and the cafes are empty, forgettable and lack any sort of function within the game

an insightful read indeed
 
A lof of those opinions are completely subjective but go off I guess.

Im really getting tired of the GF is lazy arguements whenalmost every article has dictated that they are constantly hard at work and tryong different things and shifting things about, especially in terms of working with unfamiliar hardware. Turns out game development is really, really difficult and that even of the end result doesnt look stunning, your gut reaction shouldnt be "well maybe you should try harder"
 

Pikachu315111

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Im really getting tired of the GF is lazy arguements whenalmost every article has dictated that they are constantly hard at work and tryong different things and shifting things about, especially in terms of working with unfamiliar hardware. Turns out game development is really, really difficult and that even of the end result doesnt look stunning, your gut reaction shouldnt be "well maybe you should try harder"
And I'm getting tired of this argument.

No one is calling them lazy. They're calling them stupid. They're making stupid decisions or at the very least making ones which lack forethought. Yes, development of a game is really, really hard, especially one that's supposed to be a big title... so maybe don't put the younger staff members who have little game directing credits in charge!

But what's the worse that can happen? The younger staffers getting overwhelmed thus requiring the veteran staffers to have to come back to guide them through the issues they were facing because they didn't have the game directing experience yet to handle the problems that arose? Oh, wait, that's what ended up happening, oops.

And if only there was another game being developed at the same time as Sword & Shield that the veteran staffers jumped over to that could have been given to the younger staffers. A smaller in scale game, let's say little, which takes place in a compact location, like a town, and the protagonist, we'll call them the hero, uses a unique turn-based battle system instead of the usual hack-and-slash gameplay. Completely free of the Pokemon mold, the younger staffers would be free to do what they want without worrying about all the baggage from previous games, and it'll still be marketed considerably so that the younger staffers will know when its release there will be a spotlight on it so pressure to make the game good. Then after that they take over the next Pokemon game having a mid-size game title all under their belt and GF veterans can take a backseat and make whatever game they want to make on the side.

No one is telling GF "well maybe you should try harder", we're telling them "well maybe you should try smarter".
 
And I'm getting tired of this argument.

No one is calling them lazy. They're calling them stupid. They're making stupid decisions or at the very least making ones which lack forethought. Yes, development of a game is really, really hard, especially one that's supposed to be a big title... so maybe don't put the younger staff members who have little game directing credits in charge!

But what's the worse that can happen? The younger staffers getting overwhelmed thus requiring the veteran staffers to have to come back to guide them through the issues they were facing because they didn't have the game directing experience yet to handle the problems that arose? Oh, wait, that's what ended up happening, oops.

And if only there was another game being developed at the same time as Sword & Shield that the veteran staffers jumped over to that could have been given to the younger staffers. A smaller in scale game, let's say little, which takes place in a compact location, like a town, and the protagonist, we'll call them the hero, uses a unique turn-based battle system instead of the usual hack-and-slash gameplay. Completely free of the Pokemon mold, the younger staffers would be free to do what they want without worrying about all the baggage from previous games, and it'll still be marketed considerably so that the younger staffers will know when its release there will be a spotlight on it so pressure to make the game good. Then after that they take over the next Pokemon game having a mid-size game title all under their belt and GF veterans can take a backseat and make whatever game they want to make on the side.

No one is telling GF "well maybe you should try harder", we're telling them "well maybe you should try smarter".
They're calling them both and saying otherwise is being dishonest at best.

And about the little toen hero thing, theyve already been doing just that; they even reported on it years ago and at the time people claimed it was a sign gf was burning out their workers or something, yet at the same time people also ssid that gf should only work on pokemon since their other smaller games arent as popular. Trust and believe i take many mental notes on this forum and beyond, and it seems downright hypocritical at times.
 
Working smarter is synonymous with doing less work for the same or better results, meaning Gamefreak is killing it in that department given the success of SwSh. It's time you accept that the minor grievances you have are so meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Unless the games begin selling poorly, there is no reason for Gamefreak or anyone developing a core game to cater to the minority. You are old enough to have witnessed and understood this with ORAS. It is embarrassing that the same talking points are still happening today.

Draw the removed Pokemon from dexit all you want. You'll still end up buying the game anyway.
 

Pikachu315111

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They're calling them both and saying otherwise is being dishonest at best.
Know what, I'll give you that, they are also called lazy. Though it's not hard to see why. They like taking so many shortcuts the games at times feel like budget titles (though they still sell them at full price).
They cut half of the dex with the excuse that they're working on better animations... and in-battle animations haven't improved for at least the older Pokemon (yes, newer Pokemon have better in-battle animations and Pokemon Camp has a ton more animations to make the Pokemon entertaining to watch... though since we're spending a lot of time battling in-game animations should be a higher priority (at the very least give some Pokemon better idle animations than just standing there)).
Even though we've gone to 3d environments and models character animations are still stilted during cutscenes (unless they do a jump cut, when a character wants to walk/run away they first gotta turn around in place to the direction they're going to go, pause, and then enter their walking/running animation).
But animations aren't everything, how about the graphics such as for the Wild Area and now the Hisui region in Legends: Arceus looking like they're from a PS2 game? They couldn't get any better textures?
Then we come to their shortcomings with customization? Seriously, why are they still doing the 8 portraits thing? Why not let us choose skin color, hair color, and eye color as their own separate options? Why do we have to buy the same clothing in different colors, why not just have us buy the clothing and then let us choose what color palettes we want it to be when we put it on?
Why do all the NPCs still shar models when you have a character creator built in the game so can modify that to give trainers more unique appearances (at least different skin, hair, and eye color).

Heck, that above one also applied to Little Town Hero! You'd think that for a passion project with a small scale they would have most NPCs looking unique, but NOPE! A moment in that game which stood out to me was when you visited the mine and, besides the character you were meeting there, all the other miners shared the exact same miner model!

And about the little toen hero thing, theyve already been doing just that; they even reported on it years ago and at the time people claimed it was a sign gf was burning out their workers or something, yet at the same time people also ssid that gf should only work on pokemon since their other smaller games arent as popular. Trust and believe i take many mental notes on this forum and beyond, and it seems downright hypocritical at times.
Well from what I recall the issue with Little Town Hero is that development was happening right alongside Sword & Shield and it sounded like many of the veteran staff has jumped off SwSh to work on that game (which turned out to be true). At the time it always felt like Little Town Hero was an attempt by GF to try and step away from Pokemon, thus why they heavily pushed it. Unfortunately they began doing the same shortcuts in LTH that they did in Pokemon (with no reason because I doubt The Pokemon Company and Nintendo was forcing them to finish that asap, they could have taken as long as they wanted), and with Pokemon also doing the shortcuts it made it feel like they did spread themselves short by working on two big projects at the same time. And know what, maybe they did. Maybe when it comes to big projects like Pokemon or a passion project like Little Town Hero they need a majority of the staff on hand, they should have waited until SwSh was done to then put LTH into full production (obviously have a small team working on pre-production and building the groundwork until then).

Working smarter is synonymous with doing less work for the same or better results, meaning Gamefreak is killing it in that department given the success of SwSh.
It also means using better management skills and uses of resources in order to do more with their time such as adding in more content or polishing things. The only way GF are killing it is that they're taken the idea of working smarter to the back of the shed.

It's time you accept that the minor grievances you have are so meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Unless the games begin selling poorly, there is no reason for Gamefreak or anyone developing a core game to cater to the minority. You are old enough to have witnessed and understood this with ORAS. It is embarrassing that the same talking points are still happening today.
... No.

As long as GF expects people to buy their games, as a potential customer for said games, I have the right to complain what I see are shortcomings with it. True, while the games are selling good there's no reason to make it better... but with that logic there's also no reason not to make it better! What does GF lose from actually improving all the aspects I mentioned above? Nothing, no more than they are getting by cutting all the corners they do. Well, maybe they'll have to push the game back a year... which I see no problem as that just means more development time. "But they lose out on the money from the games". HA HA HA! You think the Pokemon franchise makes the majority of its money from selling the games? Hardly, would be surprised if the revenue the franchise brings in is even a quarter from the games. No, the merch handles most of the money making, and no, they don't need a new game to sell more merch. Their might be a small boost, but if you look at the themes the Pokemon Stores has (especially on the Japanese store) you'll know they don't need a game to come up with a sells pitch. Now yes, eventually they'll need a new Pokemon game to base new products around, especially new gens and new Pokemon, but they can take a few years between games (you know, like they used to do) and not only would they not lose money but the extra time could be used for them to not only put all they want into the game but also give it better animations where it counts and polish up the graphics and such. Because they have no reason not to.
 
Im really getting tired of the GF is lazy arguements
You know what I'm getting tired of? going in circles

here's Yonder the Cloud Catcher Chronicles for Switch (2018)


this is Xenoblade Chronicles 2 (2017)


both franchises are smaller than Shin Megami Tensei, a franchise that is not particularly big either

if you as the director of a world renowned game franchise tells me you and your team are trying really really hard to make a great game
and your 2019 game ends up looking like this

and the gameplay of that game is the same is always been for over 20 years
then you're either incompetent or lying

don't shit on my plate and tell me is "chocolate pudding"

you wanna eat it? your problem
but I'm not gonna, and I'm not gonna pretend it doesn't stink
 
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Yeah, let's just ignore held items, abilities, double battles, natures, any of the moves or monsters introduced after Red and Green, everything mentioned in that stupid meme complaining about all the features Game Freak introduces and then immediately drops.

Let's also ignore that the opinion piece you linked to is specifically about spinoffs, and that spinoffs are always going to be more different and experimental regardless of franchise, because that's just kinda what a spinoff is. Let's also ignore that the piece closes by noting that Pokemon is indeed changing.

Pokemon's graphics are certainly behind the times, but if you're going to extend that complaining to the gameplay, that's your problem. I'm not gonna pretend your take doesn't stink.
 

Pikachu315111

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... and how is that a problem?
The problem isn't the mechanics per se (though wouldn't mind some new innovation there via options we're given to do in battle), but the presentation is. Yes, it's the old Double Kick animation issue, where the Pokemon doesn't move, a translucent 3d image of a kicking motion is made, and the opponent is damaged with no contact being made. No fancy camera work like we've seen done in past 3d games like Stadium, Colosseum and Battle Revolution (and in those games the Pokemon model also does run up a bit to at least look like it's going face-to-face), just the special effect that was used in the sprite games cause they were, you know, sprites. But now that we're using models, yet GF is still set on having the special effects play out unless its a super special move then they'll do a little bit extra but usually because it's only one or few Pokemon that'll get the special animation (remember how awkward the generic Z-moves looked because the Pokemon models never changed pose, it was their default idle animation which was just being moved around).
 
Sure, the graphics are subpar at best (not that I care much about it, anyways), but I don't understand how people can take some bad recent games in franchise as "evidence" that the gameplay formula does not work anymore, especially when:
- There's a just-as-common complaint that those games don't live to the standards of the previous ones. If the gameplay formula were the problem, this point would not matter.
- There's a bunch of recent (and not-so-recent) non-Pokémon games that also use the same formula and have good popularity and reception, even though the formula is cried off as "outdated".

This sounds WAY less like "Pokémon has to change" and way more like "Game Freak or TPC have to take this more seriously".
 
Yeah, let's just ignore held items, abilities, double battles, natures, any of the moves or monsters introduced after Red and Green, everything mentioned in that stupid meme complaining about all the features Game Freak introduces and then immediately drops.
Gameplay, not incremental changes
also what do you think "and" is for
if you as the director of a world renowned game franchise tells me you and your team are trying really really hard to make a great game
and your 2019 game ends up looking like this
and the gameplay of that game is
the same is always been for over 20 years
then you're either incompetent or lying
You tried really really hard on a game
well it looks worse than its contemporaries, did you spend all that effort on improving gameplay?
oh the gameplay is 95% the same as the last generation (bosses are back to how they where 2 entries back but slightly different)
so where did your efforts go to exactly?


your efforts were either useless or you're lying about them
 
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Celever

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I think we basically all agree that the presentation of Pokémon has gotten way worse, but the gameplay has for the most part gotten better. Early editions in the series struggled hugely with level curves (Kanto was basically open-world but had a linear level curve which are counter-intuitive, Johto's level curve... y'know, Sinnoh has this unnecessarily huge level spike within the E4 and Champion which you have to do in a chain) and Pokémon distribution (like a third of the Hoenn dex is in the Safari Zone, Johto doesn't platform its new additions at all, Sinnoh's regional dex is extremely small). Gen VII is divisive because it did something totally new, and that mostly also applies to Gen VIII with visible Pokémon in the tall grass and the Wild Area as a whole -- these are games where completing the dex is made pretty inconvenient too, and shows a huge paradigmatic shift away from series roots. Gen V and VI are kinda the sweetspot in these two series trends, but VI has abhorrent boss design and BW had no oldmons which was very badly received. B2W2 is kind of the sweetspot, but even that has its detractors.

What I mean is to say that to claim that gameplay and presentation are both on a consistent downward trend is kind of absurd. Presentation for sure is, I don't disagree with that. Contemporary Pokémon graphics suck. But gameplay has objectively gotten better since the earliest games in the series. Whether you think it peaked at some point and has decreased again since B2W2 is based on what you prioritise -- XY has wonderful Pokémon distribution and a pretty tight level curve, but its bosses suck and the plot is straight up poorly written, for instance -- but SwSh still fundamentally have better gameplay than most earlier games.
 
But now that we're using models, yet GF is still set on having the special effects play out unless its a super special move then they'll do a little bit extra but usually because it's only one or few Pokemon that'll get the special animation (remember how awkward the generic Z-moves looked because the Pokemon models never changed pose, it was their default idle animation which was just being moved around).
I have to break a lance in favour of GameFreaks here.

Animations like these are complicate. Every attack (or at least, type of attack) requires a dedicated animation for kicking, punching, biting, scratching, and whatever motion that isnt just "breathes fire".
This has to be done for *every. single. pokemon*. And potentially, every new "type of move" added will also need a new animation for it for every single pokemon as well, that includes alternate forms that arent just texture swaps too.

Stadium / Coliseum were working with a limited set of attacks and an equally limited set of Pokemon, and well knowing they only had to do these ones and nothing more.

Now, if they were doing this *already from the start*, it'd not be a big issue. The problem came the moment they didn't do it right away when transitioning to 3d (and to be fair, it was going to be a gargantuan amount of work even then).

To get all of this out in a way that doesnt actually suck, it would take A LOT of time and effort. Way more than what it took them to just pop out some Camp animations (and that alone took them almost a entire year for not even the entire Dex)
That's just not happening for a series that needs to pull out a game every year and already struggles to meet deadlines.


...that isn't to say I excuse the poor graphic quality. I don't. If I did for SwSh due to it being their first actual "3d" game on Switch, at this point there's really no excuse.
Even with how horrible the Switch is as far as console go, other games like, as you mentioned, SMTV and XC2 managed to make breathtaking scenarios and very cool, clean looking animations without issues (ok, I lie, the FPS does really hurt in some parts, and it's a miracle SMTV even runs on that shit console, but heh).
There's "making compromises to match the poor hardware" and there's whatever they are doing in Arceus where the graphic is still really poor AND the performance isn't even exactly looking amazing either (but hey at least it's not the 5 fps battles from the first trailer).

Not saying I wouldn't have fun playing it. I likely will. I'm the kind of player that doesn't care much if graphics are subpar as long as FPS is stable 30ish and the gameplay is actually fun.
But, that doesn't take from the fact that while I understand the decision to not commit to proper battle animations due to it being a gargantuan work on a series that already struggles, I really do not condone the fact that they are *still* making games that would look appropriate on a Playstation 3 at best.
 
Stadium / Coliseum were working with a limited set of attacks and an equally limited set of Pokemon, and well knowing they only had to do these ones and nothing more.
Both the Orre Duology and Battle Revolution pretty much just ported over the models and animations from stadium and stadium 2, meaning they only had to make models for the new Pokemon for the most part. However, possibly because Game Freak themselves were pretty lax in the early days with other companies handling the Pokemon property, many of those stadium models(especially ones from the first game) were horribly off-model compared to how they were depicted to everything else(Kangaskhan being one of the biggest offenders) and were barely polished up in later games(Why did Rhydon still have that square horn in the Gamecube games?). With Pokemon X and Y, they made entirely new models for the Gen I-IV Pokemon to make all of them on-model(the only one I can think of that had to be fixed in Gen VII was Glameow), on top of making models for the Gen V and VI Pokemon.
 
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Pikachu315111

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To get all of this out in a way that doesnt actually suck, it would take A LOT of time and effort. Way more than what it took them to just pop out some Camp animations (and that alone took them almost a entire year for not even the entire Dex)
That's just not happening for a series that needs to pull out a game every year and already struggles to meet deadlines.
I'm going to have to side with Rapti here:

That's not my problem.

Why should I excuse GF for digging themselves into a hole they should have planned around? XY, fine, they were focused on making all the models. But ORAS? They should have focused on not only the Pokemon obtainable in the game having better looking battle animations (idle, attacking, getting hit, fainting) but also began figuring how to position the camera to make the moves look more dynamic. SM & USUM is where the bulk of the work really should have been done. Then there was Let's Go which only had the original 151 + Alolan Forms & Meltan family!

Why should I excuse them deciding to release a game every year? No, I do not buy they are commanded by Nintendo & TPC to do so and GF had no choice. No, GF either decided on their own they could release a game every year (at most Nintendo/TPC asked if they could keep up the yearly releases and GF said they could). Doing these changes is going to require a 2-3 year gap between the main series games? FIND! DO IT! GOOD! Doing so is going to need more manpower? HIRE MORE. ASK NINTENDO FOR HELP! We're not talking about a 3rd party company whose on they're own, we're talking about a 2nd party company partnered with NINTENDO and who partly own a company focused on their franchise with them! "Well they're moving offices to be near them now"! GOOD! Maybe Gen 9 this won't be a problem and I'll shut up, but until then why should I curb my criticism?
 
We're not talking about a 3rd party company whose on they're own, we're talking about a 2nd party company partnered with NINTENDO and who partly own a company focused on their franchise with them! "Well they're moving offices to be near them now"! GOOD! Maybe Gen 9 this won't be a problem and I'll shut up, but until then why should I curb my criticism?
Your point is very valid, but I should point out that Game Freak is, in fact, a 3rd party company, it just that Nintendo owns part of the Pokemon franchise in particular(due to helping them get out of their 6 year development hell). They have made non-Pokemon games for non-Nintendo systems, some fairly recently, too.
 
Why should I excuse them deciding to release a game every year? No, I do not buy they are commanded by Nintendo & TPC to do so and GF had no choice.
You're free to "not buy" it, but that's how the gaming industry works nowadays.

It sucks, I know, but GameFreaks isn't exactly the only series plagued by the fact they have to commit yearly releases with little development time, and end up producing rushed games, because their publisher is demanding the yearly release.
The publisher is the one giving the development money, without it, company fails. If company fails, every employee goes home.
 

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