Pokemon that disappointed you in-game despite looking good initially?

Gen 2 OU:
1::cloyster::exeggutor::gengar::golem::jynx::machamp::marowak::nidoking::rhydon::snorlax::starmie::vaporeon::zapdos:
2::blissey::forretress::heracross::miltank::misdreavus::raikou::skarmory::steelix::suicune::tyranitar::umbreon:

Gen 3 OU:
1::aerodactyl::cloyster::dugtrio::gengar::gyarados::jolteon::magneton::moltres::snorlax::starmie::zapdos:
2::blissey::celebi::forretress::heracross::porygon2::skarmory::suicune::tyranitar:
3::claydol::flygon::jirachi::metagross::milotic::regice::salamence::swampert:

They're not that far behind Kanto in Gen 2 OU, and they're tied with Hoenn and again not that far behind Kanto in Gen 3 OU.
Should've specified none Legendaries/Mythical since that's almost always a given OU to Uber
But huh, you're right for 3 and the difference. How's UU?
 
Should've specified none Legendaries/Mythical since that's almost always a given OU to Uber
But huh, you're right for 3 and the difference. How's UU?
Gen2
1::aerodactyl::alakazam::articuno::charizard::clefable::dragonite::jolteon::kangaskhan::lapras::moltres::muk::tauros::tentacruel::venusaur:
2::donphan::entei::espeon::houndoom::kingdra::meganium::porygon2::scizor::smeargle::typhlosion::ursaring:

Gen 3
1::alakazam::arcanine::articuno::chansey::charizard::dragonite::exeggutor::jynx::kadabra::lapras::machamp::marowak::rhydon::slowbro::tauros::vaporeon::venusaur::weezing:
2::crobat::donphan::entei::espeon::houndoom::jumpluff::kingdra::miltank::raikou::scizor::smeargle::steelix::typhlosion::umbreon::ursaring:
3::armaldo::blaziken::breloom::dusclops::gardevoir::hariyama::ludicolo::medicham::ninjask::regirock::registeel::sceptile::slaking::swellow::zangoose:
Gen 2
1::Arcanine::Blastoise::Chansey::Dodrio::Electabuzz::Electrode::Gyarados::Haunter::Hypno::kabutops::kadabra::magneton::mr-mime::nidoqueen::omastar::pikachu::pinsir::sandslash::scyther::slowbro::victreebel::vileplume:
2::Ampharos::Bellossom::Crobat::Girafarig::Gligar::Granbull::jumpluff::lanturn::piloswine::politoed::quagsire::qwilfish::slowking:

Gen 3
1::blastoise::clefable::electabuzz::electrode::fearow::golduck::golem::hitmonlee::hypno::kabutops::kangaskhan::magmar::mr-mime::muk::nidoking::nidoqueen::ninetales::omastar::persian::pinsir::poliwrath::primeape::raichu::rapidash::sandslash::scyther::tentacruel::victreebel::vileplume:
2::ampharos::azumarill::feraligatr::girafarig::gligar::granbull::hitmontop::lanturn::mantine::meganium::misdreavus::politoed::quagsire::qwilfish::slowking::sneasel::stantler::xatu:
3::absol::aggron::altaria::banette::camerupt::cradily::exploud::gorebyss::grumpig::linoone::lunatone::manectric::sharpedo::shiftry::solrock::walrein:
Gen 2
1::golduck::poliwrath::raichu:
2::feraligatr:

Gen 3
n/a
Gen 2
1::arbok::beedrill::butterfree::dewgong::ditto::dugtrio::farfetchd::fearow::flareon::hitmonchan::hitmonlee::kingler::lickitung::magmar::ninetales::parasect::persian::pidgeot::primeape::rapidash::raticate::seaking::tangela::venomoth::weezing::wigglytuff:
2::aipom::ariados::azumarill::corsola::delibird::dunsparce::furret::hitmontop::ledian::magcargo::mantine::murkrow::noctowl::octillery::shuckle::sneasel::stantler::sudowoodo::sunflora::togetic::unown::wobbuffet::xatu::yanma:

Gen 3
1::abra::arbok::beedrill::butterfree::dewgong::diglett::ditto::farfetchd::flareon::golbat::graveler::haunter::hitmonchan::kingler::lickitung::parasect::pidgeot::pikachu::raticate::seadra::seaking::tangela::venomoth::wigglytuff:
2::aipom::ariados::bellossom::corsola::delibird::dunsparce::furret::ledian::magby::magcargo::murkrow::noctowl::octillery::piloswine::pupitar::shuckle::sudowoodo::sunflora::togetic::unown::yanma:
3::beautifly::cacturne::castform::chimecho::crawdaunt::delcatty::dustox::glalie::huntail::illumise::kecleon::luvdisc::masquerain::mawile::metang::mightyena::minun::nosepass::pelipper::plusle::relicanth::roselia::sableye::seviper::shedinja::shelgon::spinda::swalot::torkoal::tropius::vigoroth::volbeat::wailord::whiscash:

Jesus Christ, why does Gen 3 NU have so many NFE

As you can see, Johto is outnumbered pretty much everywhere, and that's probably because it introduced much fewer Pokemon than the other regions. It only introduced 100 new Pokemon, compared to Kanto's 151 and Hoenn's 135. If we normalize them all to 100 by dividing Kanto's numbers by 1.51 and Hoenn's by 1.35, here's what we get:
Gen 2
Kanto: 8.6
Johto: 11

Gen 3
Kanto: 7.3
Johto: 8
Hoenn: 5.9
Gen 2
Kanto: 9.3
Johto: 11

Gen 3
Kanto: 11.9
Johto: 15
Hoenn: 11.1
Gen 2
Kanto: 14.6
Johto: 13

Gen 3
Kanto: 19.2
Johto: 18
Hoenn: 11.9
Gen 2
Kanto: 2.0
Johto: 1
Gen 2
Kanto: 17.2
Johto: 24

Gen 3
Kanto: 15.9
Johto: 21
Hoenn: 25.2

Johto now outnumbers the others in most tiers, which still doesn't tell us much. Since most NFEs don't appear in any tier, it's possible that maybe Johto has proportionally more fully-evolved Pokemon, which would skew the results way in the opposite direction. If someone who isn't about to go to sleep wants to run the numbers again, but this time weight them by number of fully evolved Pokemon, that would be splendid.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Smogon Media Contributor
oh this is still somewhat active

I want to talk about Wooper in HGSS, with which I ran recently. I think Wooper often gets hyped cause Water and Ground typing + bulk looks great. However, the Wooper line has some glaring issues in the games. First of all, it's incredibly slow and this game throws tons of hax at you, so, realistically speaking, it's generally in the best interest of a particular Pokemon to be fast so they can potentially OHKO or just deal with less hax. It also means it will constantly take hints before it can even OHKO something. Speaking of OHKOs, this thing's offensive stats aren't super impressive either (85 / 65). Particularly the Special Attack. Water-types are good in HGSS for one reason; Surf and Specs. When you have low SpA, it's hard to abuse those two tools. Hell, Quagsire notoriously fails to OHKO Jasmine's stuff with Specs Surf, a trait which, from experience, only Qwilfish shares. And 85 Attack for the League isn't all that great either. Even with Earthquake and Waterfall, it didn't deal much damage and thus took incredibly long to take down stuff at the Pokemon League. I am going to admit, though, that it can be very valuable against Whitney's Miltank, as Mud Shot and Mud Bomb's secondary effects can cripple it significally.

All in all, I think Wooper is pretty disappointing given the potential of its bulk and typing, as it's hindered by low Speed and mediocre offensive stats.
 
oh this is still somewhat active

I want to talk about Wooper in HGSS, with which I ran recently. I think Wooper often gets hyped cause Water and Ground typing + bulk looks great. However, the Wooper line has some glaring issues in the games. First of all, it's incredibly slow and this game throws tons of hax at you, so, realistically speaking, it's generally in the best interest of a particular Pokemon to be fast so they can potentially OHKO or just deal with less hax. It also means it will constantly take hints before it can even OHKO something. Speaking of OHKOs, this thing's offensive stats aren't super impressive either (85 / 65). Particularly the Special Attack. Water-types are good in HGSS for one reason; Surf and Specs. When you have low SpA, it's hard to abuse those two tools. Hell, Quagsire notoriously fails to OHKO Jasmine's stuff with Specs Surf, a trait which, from experience, only Qwilfish shares. And 85 Attack for the League isn't all that great either. Even with Earthquake and Waterfall, it didn't deal much damage and thus took incredibly long to take down stuff at the Pokemon League. I am going to admit, though, that it can be very valuable against Whitney's Miltank, as Mud Shot and Mud Bomb's secondary effects can cripple it significally.

All in all, I think Wooper is pretty disappointing given the potential of its bulk and typing, as it's hindered by low Speed and mediocre offensive stats.
Was it possible to get a Choice Specs prior to Jasmine?
 
Was it possible to get a Choice Specs prior to Jasmine?
yeah, its at the lake of rage + only requires surf

unrelated: tropius and liepard (plat and B2 respectively) were pretty solid on my teams but they started falling off very quickly. tropius i think i dropped before i even got to giratina, and liepard was gone after elesa, and i felt really bad bc i liked them a lot ):

tropius probably wouldve stayed if i hadn't picked turtwig (and caught gible) but liepard was just bad all around. its been a few years since i've done those runs so i might try them out again. who knows? maybe tropius is actually really good and i was just a dumb kid that couldn't Optimize

on the other side of things, i've been using chingling in my plat nuzlocke as well as a casual diamond run (evolved into chimecho already) and they seem to be holding up pretty well, the nuzlocke hasn't passed fantina yet but iirc the diamond run is around byron
 
yeah, its at the lake of rage + only requires surf

unrelated: tropius and liepard (plat and B2 respectively) were pretty solid on my teams but they started falling off very quickly. tropius i think i dropped before i even got to giratina, and liepard was gone after elesa, and i felt really bad bc i liked them a lot ):

tropius probably wouldve stayed if i hadn't picked turtwig (and caught gible) but liepard was just bad all around. its been a few years since i've done those runs so i might try them out again. who knows? maybe tropius is actually really good and i was just a dumb kid that couldn't Optimize

on the other side of things, i've been using chingling in my plat nuzlocke as well as a casual diamond run (evolved into chimecho already) and they seem to be holding up pretty well, the nuzlocke hasn't passed fantina yet but iirc the diamond run is around byron
Has Tropius ever been a decent mon? It’s almost always available mid to late game, which for a grass/flying type isn’t great, not only because those niches have mostly been filled by the time it appears but also because it’s weaknesses are exploited by the last few gyms/elite 4. It’s stats are underwhelming and it’s movepool is somewhat shallow and common. It’s a shame because I think it’s a cool design and concept (Jungle Lapras!) that functions like a worse meganium.
 

Plague von Karma

Diolch am eich amser!
is a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcher
:gs/articuno:
What the bloody hell were Game Freak doing with Articuno back in the day? I don't know what demon possessed the developers at Game Freak to make it the only Kanto Legendary Bird to not have 125 SpA when GS came out, but it's never been the same since. Maybe it could have been a Scarf sweeper today if it kept it. Ever since then, Game Freak has continuously tried to salvage the remains of this once terrifying bird, and while the significant movepool buffs have sort of helped...the length of time is certainly telling. Stealth Rock was certainly the nail in the coffin, but I think it may finally be decent with the advent of Heavy-Duty Boots and stuff.

It's certainly disappointed me for years though! There's a reason it's frequently cited as the smoking gun in the "not all legendaries are broken" debates...if not Articuno, it's Regice.
 
Speaking about Tropius, I have experience with it in RSE and it's not super impressive there either. It has SunnyBeam and Chlorophyll, but that's it. I think you should just keep on HM enslaving it, as there are many alternatives to Tropius that are superior in terms of performance.
In Gen IV-VI, It and Bibarel are partners in crime. In every game from Diamond and Pearl until Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire, they can both cover all of the HMs in the game, and even many non-HM field moves for games with less than 8 HM moves.

Tropius:
Cut
Fly
Strength
Flash
Rock Smash
Headbutt
Sweet Scent
Secret Power
Defog

Bibarel:
Cut
Surf
Strength
Dig
Whirlpool
Waterfall
Rock Smash
Headbutt
Dive
Secret Power
Rock Climb

The only Field moves that cannot be learned by either of them are Teleport, Soft-Boiled, Milk Drink, and Chatter.
 
(Platinum)

Now i didn't expect hippo to be amazing or anything but being a long time ou member and infamous for its physical bulk that exceeds even skarmory, you'd think it'll do sth against cynthia's garchomp right?

The foe's Garchomp used Earthquake!

(Hippowdon lost 52% of its health!)


Turns out that at lvl 49, the dragon's earthquake just barely 2hkoes the behemoth. Well, that's cynthia for you. I'll be satisfied with chip damage i guess.

Hippowdon used Earthquake!

Hippowdon's attack missed!


Only then did i remember that sand stream activates garchomp's sand veil permanently...effectively making the fight harder
 

Codraroll

Cod Mod
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Moderator
In Gen IV-VI, It and Bibarel are partners in crime. In every game from Diamond and Pearl until Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire, they can both cover all of the HMs in the game, and even many non-HM field moves for games with less than 8 HM moves.
I remember we had that debate in the in-game tier list threads. The verdict, if I recall it correctly, was that while Tropius is a good HM slave on paper, the most useful HMs it can relieve your team of are all required to get to Tropius in the first place. I.e. to even find Tropius, you need to have taught some of your team mates Cut and Rock Smash already. So Tropius can't really do that job very well either.
 
I remember we had that debate in the in-game tier list threads. The verdict, if I recall it correctly, was that while Tropius is a good HM slave on paper, the most useful HMs it can relieve your team of are all required to get to Tropius in the first place. I.e. to even find Tropius, you need to have taught some of your team mates Cut and Rock Smash already. So Tropius can't really do that job very well either.
Buff the Banana mon please GF!
 

Plague von Karma

Diolch am eich amser!
is a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcher
:rs/tropius:
Tropius is one of the saddest Pokemon ever made. It has a legitimately good movepool, even getting Alolan Exeggutor's Dragon Hammer in USUM (and the only one other than it to do so). However, literally everything else about it couldn't be worse. Its typing makes it Ice Shard bait and weak to Rock, for instance. The Grass/Flying typing is often sought after by fans, but it's really not that great in practice. Not to mention Tropius has a tragic statline...not a single stat over 100. 99 HP! 99! Pretty sure that's just off that sacred Substitute number. Then you go to look at Chlorophyll, which surely fixes up this grievous wound, no? Nope, 51 Speed, which makes it get outsped more often than you would think in practice. Hell, I was using it in Colosseum's Deep Colosseum alongside a SunnyBeam Flygon, and I frankly forgot it even had the ability. You would think the one of the last main story Shadow Pokemon would be something insane, and while it certainly looks the part, Tropius is one of Game Freak's biggest blunders. They've literally given this thing another Pokemon's exclusive move and then some, but Tropius is still borderline irredeemable.

I really love this thing, though. The looks and Pre-Gen 6 cry sound amazing, though I dislike how they made it sound more like roaring wind later. I also think the flying model makes it look less imposing, but it's fine. Regardless of all of the weird aesthetic changes, it's still got a place in my heart.
 
I tried using Tropius for all of five seconds in Platinum before I chose not to. Had a Modest one with Solar Power even.

Then I stopped for a second, thought “wait this will get outsped by literally everything even if I get Sun up” and dropped it like after 4 levels of use. It’s probably not even that great for Wake (didn’t use it there), as Floatzel has Ice Fang for it and Gyarados has good Special Defense.

And this was a team where I’ve kept Pachirisu on past the sixth gym. And let me tell you, Pachirisu hits for no damage at all (45 offenses FTW) to the point where Super Fang is often better than Discharge as a first move. At least that thing can Charm and Light Screen.

On the other hand, Combee is a surprisingly good Pokemon in Diamond / Pearl / Platinum.

Let's get the big bad out of the way first. Yes, Honey Trees suck as a mechanic. No, tampering with the clock doesn't make them happen sooner. On the other hand, you can soft reset for a potential female Combee before encountering Combee after those 6 to 24 hours have passed. While the species is decided when you slather the Honey Tree, the gender and several other factors like level are not.

Adding to this, if what I'm reading on Bulbapedia is correct, Combee is the most common encounter on Honey Trees unless you are one of the two people playing Diamond / Pearl in 2020 in which case Wurmple is more common. Even then, if you are lucky enough to have a Munchlax tree in your first three Honey Trees around Floaroma Town, Combee is outright the most common mon. At a 22% encounter rate in Platinum and a 32% rate in Diamond and Pearl regardless if you get a Tree from Group A or B, you'd have to get pretty unlucky to not get a Combee in your first three trees.

And once you get a female Combee, it's all downhill from there. Combee, unlike its evolution Vespiquen, actually has a respectable base Speed of 70, and Gust (along with Bug Bite at 13 in Platinum) carry it through Eterna Forest's vast Bug types easily, with Combee's remarkably frail 30/30/30 bulk being compensated for by Cheryl's healing or the foes that can't really hurt you (for example, the Abra double battle where both have Hidden Power Fighting).

It then proceeds to take on Gardenia flawlessly, and is outright one of the best options for Fantina’s Mismagius out there - Toxic, learned at level 27, alongside Heal Order outright laughs at a boss I consider harder than Cynthia (you can setup on Spiritomb, Fantina’s Duskull deters this with Will-O-Wisp).

Even if you go out of your way to get Aerial Ace for Maylene, it’s surprisingly bad there - two mons have Rock Tomb. But it can take on Lucario excellently.

Wake it’s okay for - it’s a solid check to Gyarados with Power Gem, and can probably dunk on Quagsire. Sadly, Floatzel wins the damage race even if you are lucky enough to have Attack Order.

While it did nothing for Byron, everything beats that guy so it’s not that big a deal. With some luck it’s possible to sweep Saturn (despite Bronzor Rock Tomb lel) and it is also okay for Mars, 2HKOing Purugly with Attack Order.

About to head to Snowpoint. Expecting for it to get a lot worse due to weaknesses and Speed, but Destiny Bond is a thing.
 
Last edited:

Codraroll

Cod Mod
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On the other hand, Combee is a surprisingly good Pokemon in Diamond / Pearl / Platinum.
Vespiquen is a pretty fun Pokémon to use. It evolves pretty early and nukes stuff with Bug Bite, and it also has surprising utility in Power Gem and Air Slash. Historically it has been a bit difficult to build a moveset for it, unfortunately. Combee gets Bug Buzz at level 29, but Vespiquen learns Air Slash at level 28. If you have to choose, I think it's better to pick Air Slash and Attack Order, even though the latter is physical (granted, it has the same base stat at both sides of the spectrum, but it's better to optimize for one side for offenses). It's trivial now with the Move Reminder available at every Poké Center, fortunately. It's a bit of a hassle to obtain Vespiquen, but it's a really solid team member once you do.
 
Vespiquen is a pretty fun Pokémon to use. It evolves pretty early and nukes stuff with Bug Bite, and it also has surprising utility in Power Gem and Air Slash. Historically it has been a bit difficult to build a moveset for it, unfortunately. Combee gets Bug Buzz at level 29, but Vespiquen learns Air Slash at level 28. If you have to choose, I think it's better to pick Air Slash and Attack Order, even though the latter is physical (granted, it has the same base stat at both sides of the spectrum, but it's better to optimize for one side for offenses). It's trivial now with the Move Reminder available at every Poké Center, fortunately. It's a bit of a hassle to obtain Vespiquen, but it's a really solid team member once you do.
It's unfortunate it doesn't get Air Slash until Gen 5 though. Dunno why they made Attack Order level 45 there in BW2. Also why did they generally put Defend Order in at like level 17 until SWSH despite being an exclusive move? No one is gonna find that without the Move Reminder.

Adding onto my previous post, I would say that relying on Bug Bite and Power Gem is more than serviceable for mooks. Vespiquen's moderately high offenses outstrip the unevolved trash easily, and they only start evolving around the time you get Attack Order. Also the defenses are hilarious - it can take two Flame Wheels from Barry's Monferno and live!
 
Mons that disappointed me in Colo

Umbreon:
With Dark being a special type this gen, yet Umbreon being poor for offenses regardless, it's poor moveppol, and the fact TMs in Colo mostly suck, poor Umbry is just there soaking hits. Helping Hand is really to buff the much superior Espeon

Suicune, Raikou, Entei:
But wait, they're legendaries
Yeah, but purifying them is notoriously impracticable, And again, movesets suck. Suicune's best moves are Ice Beam and surf...and that's not even the first moves it learns for gradual purification

Entei's only good moves are Flamethrower and Fire Blast. Poor coverage, and the latter has poor accuracy

Raikou potentially can have good synergy with Suicune's Rain Dance for 100% Thunders, but again, poor purification rate and the moveset isn't helping

Which makes me question the In game Tiers smogon has. Even speedrunners ignore the legendaries cuz Espeon and Typhlosion ironically are so much better
 

Pikachu315111

JAPE Judge!
is a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
Umbreon:
With Dark being a special type this gen, yet Umbreon being poor for offenses regardless, it's poor moveppol, and the fact TMs in Colo mostly suck, poor Umbry is just there soaking hits. Helping Hand is really to buff the much superior Espeon
But is that so bad in a game where you'll probably be spending a few turns trying to catch Shadow Pokemon?

Suicune, Raikou, Entei:
But wait, they're legendaries
Yeah, but purifying them is notoriously impracticable, And again, movesets suck. Suicune's best moves are Ice Beam and surf...and that's not even the first moves it learns for gradual purification
While nothing can help the sucky moveset, you get two Time Flutes relatively easy around the time you start catching them (and they're pretty much were made to just purify the Beasts). Of course the third Time Flute you need to get to Zone 100 in Mt. Battle which feels a bit excessive, feels like it should have been hidden someplace in Realgam Tower or Snagem Hideout.
 
Suicune, Raikou, Entei:
But wait, they're legendaries
Yeah, but purifying them is notoriously impracticable, And again, movesets suck. Suicune's best moves are Ice Beam and surf...and that's not even the first moves it learns for gradual purification
As stated already, you get two time flutes but it is worth noting Suicune inches out from the other two with the aid of....Plusle. Plusle+Suicune is a nasty core. Surf is split in damage due to doubles, but Rain Dance bolsters this. Tack on Helping Hand from Plusle and see enemy teams fold. Plusle will also have ThunderDance access so Water types are not an issue for Suicune.
 
As stated already, you get two time flutes but it is worth noting Suicune inches out from the other two with the aid of....Plusle. Plusle+Suicune is a nasty core. Surf is split in damage due to doubles, but Rain Dance bolsters this. Tack on Helping Hand from Plusle and see enemy teams fold. Plusle will also have ThunderDance access so Water types are not an issue for Suicune.
Can confirm this from my brother’s playthrough.

I’ve actually seen Suicune be purified WITHOUT a Flute so yeah, takes a while (though we did Flute Entei and drop it post Venus...okay my brother hasn’t played Pokémon in 15 years lol) but yes. Helping Hand Surf with Plusle is nutty. Though Plusle is very fragile, boosted EXP does help and it can work if you can keep it alive while setting Rain Dance up.
 
In terms of the speedrun, I would expect that the legendaries are passed by not because they're underpowered or too difficult to purify, but because they're too late and inconvenient to catch. You would need to backtrack to Agate to be able to purify anything obtained after the story visit, which includes all three legendaries. They're also catch rate 3, with a recoil move, in a double battle (that in Entei's case frequently involves Earthquake), with no master ball (since it's only available during the endgame and requires more backtracking). If you're going to catch them anyway for other reasons, I don't think the speedrun not deciding to catch them at all should be a major consideration as to how useful they'll be after that.
 

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