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OU RBY OU Discussion Thread

In any scenario in which you would use lead Jolteon, you should just use lead Zapdos instead. What does lead Jolteon even do?
I like jolteon because it performs better into jynx/gar, but there's also that question of; if the electrics are inconsistent/difficult to sleepsack anyway, why not go for zap and just get a better reward? You're probably looking for a good matchup anyway, so you might as well get a better payoff if you're using something less consistent.

I think for me, the main reason I find myself wanting to use jolt lead is if I'm already using back zam. I still want the good lead matchups into gar/jynx, and in that case I think jolt makes sense if my intention is to rip twave t1.
 
I think jolt makes sense if my intention is to rip twave t1.
It generally shouldn't be. Lead Alakazam is already sacrificing a dominant opening game for consistency (which is a legtitmate choice). With Jolt, you're sacrificing even more, because Jolt doesn't have the same level of consistency. I can just switch in a ground. I can play a double switch to ground and then to Jynx and then boom... your lead didn't do anything.
 
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With Jolt, you're sacrificing even more, because Jolt doesn't have the same level of consistency.
Yes, which is why I generally don't use it unless I can't use zam or zap (if I want them in the back). Sacking jolt to sleep against a rhydon team also isn't the end of the world, I think where jolt becomes really bad is when your kicks don't get the job done and chansey waves you, and then your jolt gets murdered instead of slept. I think zap is better in that scenario because you can fit agility/rest more easily.

Ultimately I agree, I don't like it as a replacement for either zam or zap lead. I think it has some place as a discount version of either one that you can use along side them, but I totally get how it can feel too shit at either to be worth it.
 
Yes, which is why I generally don't use it unless I can't use zam or zap (if I want them in the back). Sacking jolt to sleep against a rhydon team also isn't the end of the world, I think where jolt becomes really bad is when your kicks don't get the job done and chansey waves you, and then your jolt gets murdered instead of slept. I think zap is better in that scenario because you can fit agility/rest more easily.

Ultimately I agree, I don't like it as a replacement for either zam or zap lead. I think it has some place as a discount version of either one that you can use along side them, but I totally get how it can feel too shit at either to be worth it.
After a ton of thoughts about leading with Jolteon: you should have back Jynx.

What counters Jolteon?: Rhydon and Exeggutor

Jynx is there to save the day.

*****
But I think Jolteon is still bad to lead with because it doesn't accomplish the primary objective of getting sleep accomplished first, and then instead impeads getting sleep off entirely by blocking it with paralsysis. Sleep clause is there for a reason, there is no paralysis clause, because it isn't as powerful.
 
In the midst of complaints of nobody wanting to talk about the game, I've also been thinking about Jolteon recently.
I feel like Pin Missile Lead and Rest Back Jolteon can be divided into two different pokemon, basically.
Lead Jolteon with T-Wave, Thunderbolt, Double Kick and Pin Missile is very hard to wall out - when you get a favorable matchup on say Starmie lead, and they swap on twave or stay on tbolt, you start the game off very strong, threatening to crit through stuff, and generally score lots of damage on sleeping threats. However, there's three main caveats to Lead Jolteon. 1: Rhydon. Normally, you justify a rhydon weakness by running Zapdos who's a big monster that kills everything, but Jolteon's measurably less destructive. Speaking just on lead here, I like how Lead Jolteon has better clicks vs Alakazam and Starmie - leading zapdos vs starmie and twaving on blizz and then tbolting as they swap happens a lot and isnt really ideal...God forbid starmie freeze or crit. Zapdos in lead just has less consistent clicks, but the point remains. There's a rhydon weakness, and are you really gaining enough upside?
The second critique is that it can mess with your sleep game, like outlined by Believer of GXE. Alakazam lead teams frequently spread twave and attacks early though, and they get by, using normal moves on their Exeggutor to push sleep through early, or just keeping sleep for the late game. It's not a particularly unworkable caveat, but it's something to keep in mind with Lead Jolteon.
The third is that it often twaves at lead and has Snorlax enter on it, and just beat it out. Once Jolt has to swap out, it loses a lot of threat, and you see a Jolt just get manoeuvered around a lot and not do all that much.
In my mind, Jolteon is a higher ceiling version of Alakazam as a lead, that just really doesn't want to face Rhydon. Whether or not you think this is worth it is based on how consistently you can get an advantage in the games where Jolt gets a fine matchup. I don't have a lot of love for lead Jolteon, because I feel like the huge leads it can generate can also be generated by other pokemon relatively often, and opting into the Rhydon fish just isn't necessary at all. Meh. I would run it in less serious games, but I'm unconvinced it's a part of the optimal mixed strategy of playing RBY in tournament.
Honorable mention to the Jolteon + back Jynx pairing. I didn't really consider this as a lead set, because it's pretty clearly a fake lead, you just want to swap jynx on enemy Starmie, and otherwise you're just twaving gengar and bolting into jynx(?). Swapping jynx on stuff like zam as well, context dependant. I don't know. I haven't played with it very often, but it's just another way of changing the jynx team's lead matchup spread a bit. It doesn't make anything too crazy but I think it's neat.
I got tired writing and I think anything beyond this would just be yap, but the long and short of it is I think that the rest set in the back has a couple of requirements, i.e: doesn't want to vs rhydon, doesn't want to vs rest egg(inversely likes to see egg rushing), wants to see zapdos. It has a similar matchup spread to Rhydon teams, but trades off losing to Rhydon teams in exchange for more tauros resilience(so better versus Everything Else). I think it crests the bar to be a part of the optimal mixed strategy, probably.
This isn't meant to be like, trying to be an arbiter of truth here. Just what I think about the pokemon. Good but not worth using more than sparingly.
 
High A:
Mid A:
Low A: The Cholaski (Jynx/Chansey/Cloyster/Tauros/Starmie/Golem)
High B:
Mid B:
Low B: Classic Don (Starmie/Exeggutor/Chansey/Snorlax/Rhydon/Tauros)
Classic Zam + Mie (Alakazam/Exeggutor/Chansey/Snorlax/Starmie/Tauros)
Just to hate on the B tiers a bit more. Classic Don would obviously be in Mid B above the specials team if not for wrap being pretty good against it. Having a wrap weakness is not good considering wrap teams are very low skill teams. Many bad players know how to play wrap teams optimally, because the strats are brain dead. Classic Don gets to walk around like he can just stroll into A tier half the time, because people don't play wrap enough. Play wrap more guys! This guy is getting an ego!

The specials team... ugh. The fact that many players who use this team do desperate things like put double edge on exeggutor is evidence of the inadequacies of this team. It's begging to have Egg or Chansey be replaced. It makes me sad because a team of the top 6 pokemon in the game should be A tier, and it's so close! But the weaknesses of the team are too obvious and will eventually make themselves known to you. Maybe not this game, maybe not the next, but it will happen. And every team has weaknesses, sure, but this team's weaknesses feel slightly harder to play around than others'. Needs more power!
 
That being said. Replacing Egg with Gengar on the specials team makes a team that is better than both the Don team and Specials team. Ditto for replacing Chansey with Gengar. Just how much higher above those teams... I'm not sure. Difficult to say.
 
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