OU RBY OU Discussion Thread

[THE_CHUNGLER]

So I was cross comparing how RBYPL VI Usage Stats compare to the1760+ Glicko lead stats for RBY this month.
This is what I've got:
RBYPL VI:
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Jynx 25.93%
| 2 | Starmie 23.61%
| 3 | Alakazam 22.53%
| 4 | Gengar 16.36%

--------Glicko 1760+ Stats:
| 1| Alakazam | 30.90857%
| 2 | Starmie | 24.60772%
| 3 | Jynx | 20.06382%
| 4 | Gengar | 11.51512%
----------+
This is what I learned:
For RBYPL:
Lead Alakazam has -27%
Lead Starmie has -4%
Lead Jynx has +26%
Lead Gengar has +34.2%
-------------+
What this all means is sleeper leads are extremely more common among RBYPL for leading than the 1760+.

Also interesting:
Starmie+Zam are 46% of RBYPL leads
Starmie+Zam are 44% of 1760+ leads
----------+
Jynx+Gar are 44% of RBYPL leads
Jynx+Gar are ONLY 31% of 1760+leads
-----------+
What the above shows is Starmie+Zam kept relatively similar usage rates while sleeper usage rates increased by 30%. So leading sleep is 30% more common in RBYPL compared to even the highest rated ladder games.

Which is sort of proving my theory that leading sleep is the only correct choice.

Since you don’t show the raw # of games for these rbypl usage stats, I wanted to point out a potential outlier in the data here. Rbypl featured 2 best of 35 sets: Sceptross vs Spies and River vs Vileman. When our team was scouting, we thought it was important to isolate the bo35 data, as when you are playing that many games in 1 sitting/accross 1 week, you are likely going to be reusing a lot of the same teams or maybe the same team +1 mon/set changed, etc.
Here is the lead usage from those sets

Vileman vs River:
| 1 | Jynx | 21 | 29.17% | 61.90% |
| 2 | Alakazam | 20 | 27.78% | 35.00% |
| 3 | Starmie | 13 | 18.06% | 53.85% |
| 4 | Gengar | 6 | 8.33% | 50.00% |
| 5 | Chansey | 5 | 6.94% | 80.00% |
| 6 | Jolteon | 4 | 5.56% | 25.00% |
| 7 | Zapdos | 2 | 2.78% | 0.00% |
| 8 | Exeggutor | 1 | 1.39% | 100.00% |

Sceptross vs Spies
| 1 | Jynx | 23 | 34.85% | 60.87% |
| 2 | Starmie | 17 | 25.76% | 52.94% |
| 3 | Gengar | 12 | 18.18% | 33.33% |
| 4 | Alakazam | 8 | 12.12% | 62.50% |
| 5 | Chansey | 4 | 6.06% | 0.00% |
| 6 | Zapdos | 2 | 3.03% | 50.00% |

Jynx at 29 and 34% usage for these bo35s is significantly higher than the overall jynx usage in rbypl and is surely bringing it up a decent bit just by the raw game total. The Gar usage is a lot noisier (8 vs 18%) which makes sense since it’s overall a less common lead. Whether this is relevant is up to interpretation, but I think there’s a reasonable argument that overall rbypl jynx usage was partly due to players in the bo35s happening to use a lot of jynx teams and then reusing the same jynx teams out of laziness/reusing/35 games is A LOT and you obviously won’t prep 35 different teams.

 

[violet river]

Since you don’t show the raw # of games for these rbypl usage stats, I wanted to point out a potential outlier in the data here. Rbypl featured 2 best of 35 sets: Sceptross vs Spies and River vs Vileman. When our team was scouting, we thought it was important to isolate the bo35 data, as when you are playing that many games in 1 sitting/accross 1 week, you are likely going to be reusing a lot of the same teams or maybe the same team +1 mon/set changed, etc.
Here is the lead usage from those sets

Vileman vs River:
| 1 | Jynx | 21 | 29.17% | 61.90% |
| 2 | Alakazam | 20 | 27.78% | 35.00% |
| 3 | Starmie | 13 | 18.06% | 53.85% |
| 4 | Gengar | 6 | 8.33% | 50.00% |
| 5 | Chansey | 5 | 6.94% | 80.00% |
| 6 | Jolteon | 4 | 5.56% | 25.00% |
| 7 | Zapdos | 2 | 2.78% | 0.00% |
| 8 | Exeggutor | 1 | 1.39% | 100.00% |

Sceptross vs Spies
| 1 | Jynx | 23 | 34.85% | 60.87% |
| 2 | Starmie | 17 | 25.76% | 52.94% |
| 3 | Gengar | 12 | 18.18% | 33.33% |
| 4 | Alakazam | 8 | 12.12% | 62.50% |
| 5 | Chansey | 4 | 6.06% | 0.00% |
| 6 | Zapdos | 2 | 3.03% | 50.00% |

Jynx at 29 and 34% usage for these bo35s is significantly higher than the overall jynx usage in rbypl and is surely bringing it up a decent bit just by the raw game total. The Gar usage is a lot noisier (8 vs 18%) which makes sense since it’s overall a less common lead. Whether this is relevant is up to interpretation, but I think there’s a reasonable argument that overall rbypl jynx usage was partly due to players in the bo35s happening to use a lot of jynx teams and then reusing the same jynx teams out of laziness/reusing/35 games is A LOT and you obviously won’t prep 35 different teams.

i noticed around game fifteen that vileman used zero gengars so i used a billion jynxes after then

 

[Sceptross]

Also, to add my own perspective, Jynx is the most versatile lead in what it allows you to do with the rest of the team, so in a bo35 setting you end up bringing it more by virtue of wanting to induce variety.

 

[Eeveeto]

Also, to add my own perspective, Jynx is the most versatile lead in what it allows you to do with the rest of the team, so in a bo35 setting you end up bringing it more by virtue of wanting to induce variety.

Fully agree with this. The 2 Mons the "shitmons" I often try to use most commonly struggle with the most are Gengar and Starmie. By leading Jynx, Gengar pretty often explodes on it, while Starmie is slept. This means that the Omastar (to put an example, it can be another Mon) will have a much easier time on the field, since it doesn't have to deal with Gengar or Starmie anymore (specifically, the 4 best Mons of the tier can be beaten by Omastar with the right moves and without insane levels of support, while Starmie fully walls it). This makes Jynx very attractive lead for unconventional structures.

 

[violet river]

I don't know if sceptross was referring to trying to squeeze more Omastar usage into his bo35s

 

[Soda_Eesti]

What i find suprising that no one has mentioned yet, is that in tournament play you load stuff thats good into your opponent's scout, rather than the tournament as a whole.

If i have 50% lead gengar and 40% lead starmie, you wouldnt dare lead jynx or gengar into me, and would prefer loading Zam/Mie. If my opponent has 45% Mie, and 35% Jynx, with very low gengar, im leading something like zapdos or jolteon. You should not make calls on what is and isnt near always the correct play based on how EVERYONE plays, rather on how your opponent in specific plays.

Sure the better your opponent is the less likely they are to have these insanely skewed scouts with almost nobody being as skewed as above, and with some players being unscoutable, but thats not at all common and i think ive only ever seen 1 or 2 people like that. Majority of the people you face will have preferences. You play into those. And if you dont bother to scout your opponent because its a low stakes tour you dont care about, why are you even being optimal. Have fun and bring what you want. There is no reason general stats should determine what you bring as a counterteam.

Edit: If your opponent is unscoutable because they have literally no games to scout for this is when you load whatever you want and fundies them.

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

Also, to add my own perspective, Jynx is the most versatile lead in what it allows you to do with the rest of the team, so in a bo35 setting you end up bringing it more by virtue of wanting to induce variety.

Everyone knows Jynx is good. She is so popular. But Jynx is reaaallyy good. Reaaalllly good. When I'm not using her I really miss her. She is probably a bit better than we all think and we already think shes really good. More accurately put, she allows really great team composition. Her biggest strength.

This makes Jynx very attractive lead for unconventional structures.

So we are all learning the same things out there in the field. Nice.

 

[dangerk1d]

What I've been appreciating more about jynx (in lieu of our previous discussions around normal move egg) is how much you have to give up to beat it. I think its floor is probably always going to be limited by the bad matchups it can have, but given that those (gar lead or normal egg) are big concessions that make you worse off into many teams, counterteaming it always feels a little like a gamble.

This is why I've been really liking Jynx Mie Don lately. I remember sceptross saying he thought it was the best overall team into the meta, which seemed crazy to me at the time for how it gets demolished by gar (although usually only 70% of the time, and boom can go very wrong); but if most of the stuff that ruins it is inconsistent and "suboptimal," it's probably still a good team. I'd rather be good into the strong teams than the weak ones and put the onus on them to fish me, it could very well backfire for them if I decide to play something else.

My favorite way to deal with jynx currently is probably sing toss chansey to bully the jynx for my tauros, but that feels a little awkward to fit sometimes too, because you have to fit anti-starmie tech somewhere else (beamlax, bolt mie, zap), which in conjunction with toss chansey usually leaves you worse off against don or zap in some capacity. That may be another case of having to accept the team's bad matchups, but being weak into zap/don feels way worse than being weak to gar or normal egg given how much more common/stronger the former are.

Overall, if rbypl is anything to go off of, I think this spl season is going to have a lot of jynx's, as players seem to be appreciating its talents more and more. Hopefully we see people working on new strategies to crack it open (progress!!!). Given how many jynx teams have backup sleep and/or egg now (making gar lead extremely inconsistent), my money is on normal move egg making a comeback. Perhaps we'll see some tauros lead? In rbypl us haymakers used a lot of jynx + backup sleep to answer opposing jynx, which felt like the most consistent answer; but I'm curious to see what people find next.

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

Question: Who is the current rule set for? I mean, obviously the purists have lost the debate. We will always have freeze clause. We will implement things on showdown for the sake of practicality. Etc. So, why do we still put up with broken stuff if the purists have lost? Isn't it weird that we can't have the advantages that would come from just fixing broken things that the designers themselves would have obviously fixed if they had the chance (such as 100% accuracy moves missing)? Again, if the purists have obviously lost, then who are these motley crew of rules for?

 

[Melbelle]

because we are a weird amalgamation of rules that shouldn't exist and playing the game simulated properly.
similarly to the purists, the "fix everything we don't like" camp has also obviously lost.

 

[Amaranth]

compromises exist, you don't have to full send one thing or the other

 

[Ortheore]

It isn't "for" anyone. Individual issues got decided on a case by case basis over the years (e.g. freeze clause originated around the time NetBattle was developed, making it bloody ancient), and then that patchwork kinda stayed in place long enough to build up such inertia that change is practically impossible.

The only thing I can think of that might instigate change would be some Crystal_ level mechanics discoveries, or if someone developed an emulation-based platform that matched all of the quality of life features from PS (to my knowledge, this isn't happening)

I'll continue to stand by my cart accuracy views, but I don't really expect any change to come and I'm not really bothered too much by that

 

[dangerk1d]

We're divided in what the rules should be, but united in our hatred of change. The perfect recipe for contradiction (but a beautiful contradiction methinks )

 

[bdt2002]

The other day I found myself thinking about the lead Psychics again, and I caught myself thinking… probably no, but is there any realistic shot Kadabra is viable in this tier? Yes, you read that right. Obviously you’d never run this in serious games over Alakazam, but the idea would be that using both on the same team could allow you to have a sort of “Alakazam Lite” in the lead slot or the back while still allowing you to have an actual Alakazam elsewhere in your team structure while not having some of the same weak points as Starmie or Jynx. I feel like Alakazam + Starmie/Jynx would still be more viable than Kadabra + a second speedy Psychic, obviously, but Kadabra manages 120 Special and 105 Speed allowing it to still outspeed Jynx and Zapdos leads while still being favored to at least land a Thunder Wave against most other leads aside from maybe Gengar if it hits Hypnosis.

At 120 Special, also, Kadabra’s own Psychic hits harder than every other Psychic aside from Exeggutor and of course Alakazam itself. My favorite part about Kadabra over Starmie specifically is that lack of an Electric weakness combined with said Special, which can allow Kadabra to try and eat at least one Thunderbolt in a pinch. Unfortunately that’s about where the positives end. Hey, I never said this would break the meta or anything. I just want to know if this is even a viable strategy in the first place. This feels like one of those things that could end up being great on paper and horrible in execution.

 

[dangerk1d]

I tried to build with double spoons a while ago. It was definitely compelling because Kadabra doesn't actually feel that bad, it's pretty fast and strong. I'd probably prefer zam in the lead just for the gar matchup (and zam), but gar staying in is so risky that maybe it could work (although I think you'd be better off with mie or jolt). There are a few awkward damage rolls (ohkod by Tauros beam, 3hkod by toss, which is disgusting for dealing with toss Chansey), but i don't have enough experience using it to know more rolls that could come into play.

The big problem with kad I found is that it's hard to justify not running anything else. I don't think zam lead is so good that you can afford to run back kad, and kad lead just seems worse than mie/jolt in most situations, so I'd prefer one of those two + backzam 99% of the time. Which leaves trying to fit two zams in back. One can already feel very hard to fit at times, so two becomes absurd.

Curious to see what other people have tried, but I think it's a case of kad being outclassed, even though it doesn't feel terrible in practice.

 

[bdt2002]

I tried to build with double spoons a while ago. It was definitely compelling because Kadabra doesn't actually feel that bad, it's pretty fast and strong. I'd probably prefer zam in the lead just for the gar matchup (and zam), but gar staying in is so risky that maybe it could work (although I think you'd be better off with mie or jolt). There are a few awkward damage rolls (ohkod by Tauros beam, 3hkod by toss, which is disgusting for dealing with toss Chansey), but i don't have enough experience using it to know more rolls that could come into play.

The big problem with kad I found is that it's hard to justify not running anything else. I don't think zam lead is so good that you can afford to run back kad, and kad lead just seems worse than mie/jolt in most situations, so I'd prefer one of those two + backzam 99% of the time. Which leaves trying to fit two zams in back. One can already feel very hard to fit at times, so two becomes absurd.

Curious to see what other people have tried, but I think it's a case of kad being outclassed, even though it doesn't feel terrible in practice.

Double Spoons is a goated name for this, first off, if you didn’t come up with that yourself I give props to whoever did because that’s super creative. Those damage rolls are what scare me off from wanting to build with this too especially as a player who thinks Starmie’s such an incredible Pokémon anyway. Alakazam’s physical bulk, or there lack of, already holds it back too much in many scenarios, and Kadabra notably doesn’t outspeed a healthy Tauros like Starmie and Alakazam both can.

I feel Double Spoons would only really be viable in certain metas and even then players would be going into games practically guaranteed to go down 5-6 earlier than they might hope for. Not counting Chansey since Blissey didn’t exist yet, I personally believe Kadabra to be Kanto’s best NFE, and unlike the ever-tried idea of Double Tauros I feel like this has some, albeit very limited potential. (Unrelated side note, but Double Tauros teams feel like the ultimate noob trap for newer players unless you’re specifically playing Monotype.)

 

[violet river]

one of alakazams best traits is beating on enemy chansey in the midgame with strong psychics -> because kadabra is 3hkod by chansey toss and is easier to stall out, I'd just throw this straight in the toilet

 

[Ortheore]

Hi, I've researched Kadabra, brought it to tournament and posted about it in the jank thread and on my blog (on mobile rn, so linking sucks). Suffice it to say that it's usable, and honestly one of the better shitmons available. It's honestly a solid lead, usable outside the lead slot (better as a lead though) but you do NOT want it lategame (Tauros OHKOs)

dangerk1d is spot on in that it has fierce competition from Starmie (I initially said fast psychics, but it's really just Star). Lack of secondary typing and a small power increase is a valid niche, but it's not an easy sell

I can't remember where it is on my personal vr, non-zero chance I have it somewhere in D

one of alakazams best traits is beating on enemy chansey in the midgame with strong psychics -> because kadabra is 3hkod by chansey toss and is easier to stall out, I'd just throw this straight in the toilet

SToss is still a minority of Chansey sets, BoltBeam is more common which Kadabra is fairly solid against so this argument doesn't hold up imo

edit: blog post and jank thread post

 

[Eeveeto]

Late game unparalyzed Alakazam is one of the scariest things to face in RBY, so having Kadabra fight vs Egg and Chansey earlier instead of Zam can be a good idea. The only "bad" thing about this is that if opponent sees your Kadabra, he will know for sure you have a Zam in the back and play accordingly (preserve Egg and Starmie, mainly). How to avoid that? Probably use some more Mons that force Egg in, like Rhydon. This does mean that you are likely not using one of the Big 4 Mons... but at this point in time, most of us know that Laxless, Chanseyless and Eggless teams are viable. Still a limitation, but not an impossible one to overcome.

 

[Hipmonlee]

Unrelated to Jynx and Gengar, what is your opinion of lead Alakazam nowadays, if you even have a strong opinion? I like Alakazam less and less every time I play. I wonder if your views on him have changed throughout time.

Since this was directed at me specifically, I wouldn't say I have strong opinions about Alakazam as a lead. It does the job it needs to.

I guess if you wanted to press me for something genuinely interesting about it (with the caveat that I haven't really kept up with things this year), I think t1 twave was underrated last time I was really aware of the latest trends, and if you're going to t1 twave Zam is the best at it, because with a t1 twave the last thing you want is chansey just coming into your starmie, eating the twave and just being free to do whatever it wants for as many turns as it likes.

Back in the day when the game was a lot more aggressive than it was in the reflect wars era, I felt that two twaves (not including chansey) was about equivalent to a sleep. Now, it seems as though the trend has been towards more aggressive play lately, so maybe things are swinging back in favour of t1 zam twave.

So maybe this is useful, but maybe its grossly out of date.

 

[Leader of the Rockets]

In the past, Chansey made her way onto teams as simply as a matter of formality. Today, one has to think more consciously about why they are putting Chansey on their team. While Alakazam was never as obligatorily ubiquitous as Chansey, I feel he has also become a pokemon in which one has to think more consciously about why one is putting him on their team as a lead.

Unrelated: because the meta is a bit more biased toward aggression and momentum, almost no one will care to explore this, but burn and toxic, I have found, are really good in a long game, but obviously really bad in a short game. At around turn 80 or 90, the opponent goes from "Ha, you can't sleep me or paralyze me now!" to, "Oh sh&t, I can't do this for much longer." One is tempted to think of pairing toxic and burn with wrap; or in other words, one is tempted toward ending the game in one's favor as soon as possible. But, I'd say, don't be tempted into that pairing. You don't need speed, you need time. Time is your friend here.